Home Concealed Carry Home Carry: Pincus on the Open vs. Concealed Debate Concealed CarryOpen Carry Home Carry: Pincus on the Open vs. Concealed Debate By Rob Pincus - August 11, 2012 65 Facebook Twitter Pinterest WhatsApp Email ◀Previous Post Next Post▶ ◀Previous Post Next Post▶ RELATED ARTICLESMORE FROM AUTHOR Snohomish County Jailers Discover Colt .25 Hidden In Woman’s Abdominal Skin Folds Kentucky AG: Cities Can’t Prevent Employees From Carrying Firearms on the Job Amnesty International: Allowing New Yorkers to Carry Firearms Would Violate International Law 65 COMMENTS Ok so he demonstrated that open carry is quicker than concealed. While I am not a fan of open carry, I don’t agree with his explanation of why it’s a bad idea in a home invasion. When someone kicks down your door and is storming into your house, why on earth would you want to “calm them down” verbally? They obviously don’t give a crap about what you think and will probably just pistol whip you anyway. Use that time wasted drawing for your firearm. Chances are they’re going to try to tie you up anyway while they steal your belongings and rape your family. Oh, I’ll definitely confront someone who just kicked down my door and is committing a felony in my home… but I will confront them with my trusty Colt 1911 before I confront them with “Welcome to my home! Now if you please calm down…” Reply Agreed. Inside the home, where I have no concerns about ‘printing’, I’d almost always prefer to carry openly (and I do). Sometimes, however, if I’m going in and out of the house (but still at home on my property) over the weekend, say out to the yard to rake for a few minutes, or out to the mailbox, I prefer to be carrying concealed, since it makes the neighbors less nervous. Reply “but I will confront them with my trusty Colt 1911 before I confront them with “Welcome to my home! Now if you please calm down…”” I laughed at that last bit, mainly because the premise of telling someone who just broke in your house to calm down is laughable in my opinion. Reply you watch too many movies. I’m guessing a large percentage of the time someone comes through a door uninvited, it’s because they’re very drunk and have no idea what they’re doing. having lived in a few university towns, it’s not uncommon at all. yeah you might get away with killing them, but taking half a second to see if maybe they just need a shove back out the door might save you a whole lot of hassle… Reply If you force your way into my house aka you break down my door or break a window, you are considered a threat. Doubly so if you’re armed. Im more likely to be understanding if you’re outside TRYING to break down my door. Then you get a warning that the cops were called. And a suggestion not to continue, because if you make it inside my house, you’re in for a world of hurt. Oh, and PS I live in a University town, and have for 6 years now and never had a drunk try to break down my door (and I live a block away from the downtown bar district). Reply I know it is a right in states that still abide by the 2nd amendment, but it is not worth the hassle, dirty looks, and outright fear that people look at you with when you open carry. That is why I got my CCW and have not had one single problem since. No property owners telling me to disarm, no paranoids questioning my sanity or motives, no police disarming you just so they can “check you out” to see if you’re a felon or something, and no busy-bodies always calling the po-po on you. In today’s hyper-paranoid times we live in where the government wants you to report on everything you see and all white people as terrorists, it is the only way to go at this point. I would be glad to return to the times where you could walk down the road with a rifle on your back and a pistol on your hip as being the norm and if you were NOT armed, YOU were the nut! Reply Please stop posting this guy’s garbage. Calm them down? Dudes an idiot. I’ve be open carrying for two years. NEVER had any problems from other citizens or the police. Reply calm them down, he must be from San Francisco! Reply SIR. You are in the wrong place! Calm down! Bwaha! Can we please stop with the seal team 6 expert opinions on everything from tactical toilet paper positioning to open carry in the home? Reply Benji, (god, I hope that is actually not a code name…) NSWDG has actually paid for my advice… you guys get it free… listen if you want, if not: You can pass. I’m pretty confident that the only negative effect my advice could have on you is making one of your assertions look silly. Some people embrace the opportunity to develop, others rebel against it. If you are in the latter, I ask you, SIR, to just let it go… 🙂 -Rob Reply Come on now, you need to have thick skin when you put content out there in the world. You should be able to laugh at yourself a bit and roll with it. Or at least ignore those of us with terrible “code names” and opinions 🙂 Benji, Thick Skin… yes. But, If I wanted to ignore you, I wouldn’t offer the knowledge in the first place… Reply Look, I’m not trying to get deleted here. The entire firearm training industry has gone off it’s rocker if we’ve come to subjects like this. Another “expert” makes another declaration. Which I dismiss outright. Here is what we need, in spite of the seriousness of the subject matter: Lighten up m’kay? Really, can we still train and carry and shoot and still have FUN doing it? These killjoys seem dedicated to putting a frown on ever shooters face, deriding just about everything in finite detail because YOU supposedly aren’t doing it right. Am I wrong or is looking the bad-ass and making random declarations (ala Gabe or Rob) really the first ingredient in self defense? Reply oh, do you think I look “bad-ass”… AWESOME!!! Seriously, though, I’m wearing a bowling shirt… Gabe is way more bad-ass looking than me. (light enough?) Reply I’m not a fan of open carry, not because it’s evil or uncivilized, but because being secure is much easier when you’re inconspicuous. Open carry is purposely conspicuous, and it attracts the attention of two classes of people (cops and criminals) whom most of us would rather not be noticed by. Placid civilians frequently don’t even notice OC, but they’re not the people the armed citizen should be worried about. Reply In this situation I think it comes down to personal preference. At home, I carry just like I do in public. AIWB concealed… I do this not necessarily for the tactical advantage like Rob discusses. I do it for consistency… I’ve trained (and continue to train) extensively with this carry method. So changing it just because I’m at home doesn’t make sense to me. That said, sometimes if I’m wearing a tighter fitting t-shirt or an undershirt at home I’ll tuck it in behind the holster in front just for comfort… But most of the time I’m concealed even at home because I’ve trained to be proficient from concealment. Reply i live in ca so i don’t have a permit. at home i pocket carry a j frame with pocket holster. the reasons i conceal instead of open are numerous but the main reason is my granddaughters. i don’t want some busybody reporting me for “child endangerment” or some such nonsense. this being ca i don’t need a visit from cps. i may be overthinking this but i’d rather be safe than sorry with my girls. Reply I open carry at home for comfort. Nitpicking at the small differences between open/concealed while you are in your house is ridiculous. 99% of the people I know don’t even carry at home. It’s personal preference, either way is better than nothing. Reply That is true Jared. My original comment was meant towards open carry in public. The video was so incredibly stupid with the “calm the perp down advise” that I did not even think to comment on it because it was so out of touch with reality. Reply Yeah, I dont agree with that whole “calm the perp down” statement either. Look, if you bust into my house and are armed, you’re going down. Simple as that. Reply Yes. I agree also Josh. With my children grown & gone I have no fears of unauthorized fingers on triggers. That’s why I have a Mossberg pump in every room near a door and rifles in “other” places, with pistols in “other” places, so no matter what room of my house I am in, I will ALWAYS have quick, easy, unfettered access to one or more of my fully loaded firearms. Besides, any perp would have to fight their way past my two very large, aggressive, territorial guard dogs that are like children to my wife and I…..and LORD help you if you harm a hair on my dog’s head! Seems those dismissing the whole “calm the perp down” are COMPLETELY missing the point. It presupposes that you were caught off guard, and so are not in a position to easily, quickly and SAFELY unholster your firearm. If you are indeed able to easily, quickly and safely able to eliminate the threat that you believe to be a lethal threat to you, Mr. Pincus is not suggesting (and will correct me if I’m wrong here) that you should calm him down and brew him a cup of mint tea to discuss his life choices. If, however, you are caught with your proverbial (or actual) pants down, unprepared, on the couch, both hand carrying your baby, whatever, then your BEST chances are when, in fact, your piece is concealed. You can then buy time, try to find an opening, give yourself space, time to take action. If however you are in that situation but your firearm is openly visible, what do you think your options are, and what do you think a perp would do? Particularly the kind of perp that would in fact give rise to your right to self-defense in the first place (armed, dangerous, threatening, etc.) That’s right. Upon seeing that piece, he will attempt to take you out (or run scared? Perhaps, though I don’t buy that). Maybe it’s me, but I see a lot of knee-jerk reaction around here, and not a whole lot of measured thought, or mental flexibility. I’ve been home carrying both open and concealed at the same time since I received my G36. My 30SF is great for open carry with the 10 round mag and the 36 is a nice concealed backup. The BG might still take me out, but two guns are better than one or none. Reply That Crossbreed OWB holster is fugly. I wouldn’t open carry either if I had to wear that stupid looking thing. Reply Valid. Reply I love the posts from guys who really BELIEVE that they will magically leap off the coach and into action. My Bet: 50% of you couldn’t get up off the couch while drawing a gun. 25% of you probably can’t get up off a couch without grunting and/or using a hand to help. (raise those numbers by 10% if you’re still using a 1911 😉 ). All Kidding Aside, the important thing here is CONTEXT. This is not an IDPA stage we’re talking about. If you understand how your brain/body react to something as startling as your door getting kicked in without warning while you are sitting around watching football and eating chips, you’d understand how UNlikely a rapid presentation and volley of accurate fire is. Add in a couple screaming family members and/or a barking dog and there is more than enough chaos in play to distract from your perfectly rehearsed dirt-berm assault, with your bladed stance and everything. Now, you’re in an over-whlemingly surprising and chaotic situation, trying to pull off a set of complex motor-skills that you probably haven’t practiced in that context…while focused on your family AND the threat as well. So, the issue is not which is 10-20% faster, it is about which gives you more options. Where a gun openly and you either NEED to bring it into play immediately (see above for the my prediction of that working our well…) OR you’ll get shot because you represent a threat OR (more likely, given the empirical evidence form actual crimes) you’ll be told to hand it over at gun point. If the gun is concealed, you will probably be told what to do (sit down, lay down, turn around, get the valuables, whatever) and be able to start working on a real response that could include the use of your firearm when you are READY and more on balance, with a much higher percentage chance of success. You guys can make fun of the idea of verbally engaging the bad guy if you want… but, I hope you take your family’s defense seriously enough to really think about the underlying issues and not just rely on delusions of grandeur to keep you & your kids alive. -RJP Reply Rob, I believe you were correct in asserting that it’s all about CONTEXT. The situation for each person here is going to be different. For example, I currently live alone (discounting the dog). I dont have to worry about family members. I also have a fairly sturdy door (alarmed), and alarms on my windows. Besides the fact the dog barks up a storm anytime anyone gets within 50 feet of my house. I will have prior warning to any person getting into my house. If you force your way into my house, you’re asking to leave with a few extra orifices. The point is each person here should have a PLAN in place for certain situations, such as a home intruder. Family members should know the plan, and it should be practiced regularly so everyone knows what to do in the event that the unthinkable happens. Now about that verbal warning. Is it a good idea to maybe shout out some sort of warning so you could possibly avoid confrontation? Maybe. Do you have to? Hell no, well, not in my state anyway. Anyone who breaks into my house is not there to have tea and crumpets with me, no need for small talk. Reply Agreed on most counts… This is part of a 13 episode series of covering Home Defense. One of the episodes is about having a plan and actually running the family through a practice drill every now & then…. but, even those plans don’t trump the natural reactions of startle. Giving up .25 seconds at most in order to gain MANY options seems to make obvious sense to me. Only in a PERFECT scenario does that .25 seconds help you…. in every other situation, concealed carry is a break even AT WORST. -RJP Reply Hopefully I wont need other options, if my early warning systems function correctly Ill already be drawn and ready to go. RJP Good move, making false, personal attacks on your audience before you even address your main points. Puts it all in Context, which is; Your A Snob. Now here’s something for you to concider: Why Must I rise from my chosen Couch Potato Posture to shoot some reject from the Walking Dead ? I am quite capable of inducing a Dirt Nap in anyone busting through my door(s) with out breaking into calisthenics, in fact I recomend it. Reply You missed the “all kidding aside”, eh? I’m an confident asserter of my opinions… If I were a snob, I wouldn’t bother to share those opinions with those who hold lesser ones. In fact, I’m anything but… I’m the guy that gets up off the couch and does the research and the work to figure out what to say and then says it to anyone who wants to listen, without judgement, hoping it will help them on their journey to being safer. Read through the first 20 comments on this thread and count the actual instances of arrogance from the Code Name Crowd. GO! Reply Rob, Enjoyed the video. Thanks for sharing. And shame on you for engaging in an argument on the internet. 🙂 You should know better. Reply Where’s the fun in ignoring the debate? After all, if I didn’t respond, at least 50% of the guys posting negative stuff would get the impression that I didn’t truly care about their education. Thanks for your thoughts on the vid! Reply Dear Mr. Pinkus, I believe everyone has to evaluate themselves. Here is why. I was laying on my couch one evening … I was totally relaxed and watching television. My mind was a thousand miles from a home invasion. Without any warning someone smashed my front door which was just 12 feet away from my couch. I did exactly what you figure is impossible: I instantly leaped up from the couch and drew my handgun in one fluid motion. I did not waste any time processing the situation. I was up, facing the door, and gun drawn in well under two seconds. Fortunately it turned out to be some jackass door-to-door salesmen who thought it would be smart to bash someone’s door at 8:30 in the evening … and no one was harmed. Nevertheless, my reaction is immediate draw and then assess whatever happened, not the other way around. My daughter happened to be in the room and saw my reaction time. She was flabbergasted. She could not believe how fast I was up and ready with handgun in hand. She feels a LOT safer now knowing that I am so fast. Reply Got video? See my reply to another comment to the accuracy of first person eye-witness testimony, especially under critical incident stress. Please don’t take offense, but it isn’t very accurate. Research the topic yourself and I bet you come to the same conclusion. -RJP Reply You forgot to add “and for just $199.95 you yes YOU can take my seminar and you too can be a stealthy force like no other”. Reply Combat Focus Shooting Classes are $500 for two days. But, some people take a lot more time than that to reach “stealthy force” levels… we start the day with a pretty clear reality check about people only being capable of reaching the level that their existing condition and skill will allow. Only a scam artist would actually guarantee results. Then the Very Savvy Scam Artist then follows up by condemning an honest instructor who deals reality to his students and not false confidence. -RJP Reply I personally open carry in my home and on my property!!! Note tho’ that my home and property cannot be seen by my neighbors or from the main gravel road !!!! If I get along the edge’s of my property or decide to walk the quarter mile to my mailbox then I cover it up since I do have a ccw license!!! In our home every gun is loaded except for our daughters .22lr we got her for Christmas!!! She is very aware of this and knows that she does not touch any gun without one of us being with her!!! She wouldn’t even let her best friend look at her unloaded single shot .22 until I had gotten it and cleared it myself!!!! As far as trying to get my pudgy ass out of the couch in a hurry… Nah I know better than that while trying to draw and fire accurately so I have and still do practice drawing and shooting(use a laser/empty gun) at my front window and door quite often!!!! One reason I do open carry in home is that. Oncealex and sitting costs too much time!!! JMHO!!!!! Reply I personally open carry in my home and on my property!!! Note tho’ that my home and property cannot be seen by my neighbors or from the main gravel road !!!! If I get along the edge’s of my property or decide to walk the quarter mile to my mailbox then I cover it up since I do have a ccw license!!! In our home every gun is loaded except for our daughters .22lr we got her for Christmas!!! She is very aware of this and knows that she does not touch any gun without one of us being with her!!! She wouldn’t even let her best friend look at her unloaded single shot .22 until I had gotten it and cleared it myself!!!! As far as trying to get my pudgy ass out of the couch in a hurry… Nah I know better than that while trying to draw and fire accurately so I have and still do practice drawing and shooting(use a laser/empty gun) at my front window and door quite often!!!! One reason I do open carry in home is that concealed and sitting costs too much time!!! JMHO!!!!! Reply Well, at least you are trying in context to draw/shoot while seated.. good for you! Reply Generally, I see open carry in a city as a bad idea. It annoys people who don’t need to know that I’m carrying without offering me enough added benefit. Out in the country or on my property, it makes sense. When I’m carrying in my home, I usually have a pocket gun–Kel-Tec P-11 or .38 snubby. If I’m working on a novel or doing the dishes, I don’t often have a belt on. A lightweight backup piece will get me to a bigger, badder gun if the situation arises–I hope. Reply Mr. Pincus is 100% correct and several of you guys obviously do not listen well to what he is saying. Try watching it a few more times in regards to him “talking to the intruders.” Turn the volume up and listen as well as watch. If they see your holstered open carried handgun they might just shoot you first without saying a damn thing. Having it concealed in that situation when they have the drop on you is a tactical advantage just as he said. Meaning surprise I am armed and now the tables are turned. Why give it up by walking around with your handgun exposed? You carry it concealed all day long why not continue till its time to go to sleep? My personal opinion is open carry is an incident waiting to happen unless you are in uniform AND working or out hunting or something like that where dangerous game are a real threat and you might need to go to your pistol. I’ve been carrying for 24 years without incident, thank God. Good video Mr. Pincus keep up the good work. Reply Medbill, If one or more criminals crash through your door, they are there to harm you and your family, period. The only question is whether they intended to harm you financially or physically. Now that we know a criminal who crashes your door is there to harm you, your automatic response at the first sound of the crash should be to immediately draw your handgun and point it at them before they know what is happening. If they do anything other than immediately drop any weapons and retreat or lie face down, you should seriously shoot them. Any hesitation on their part indicates that they are deciding how to attack you and evaluating their chances of success. Don’t give them the time to make a plan of attack. I have heard people say it a different way. If a criminal stays in your home once they know you are home, they are there to harm you physically. You should act appropriately to defend yourself. Reply Wow, there is so much wrong with the above post by uncommon_sense, I don’t know where to start. FLAME DELETED -RJP Reply How many of you posting have taken a force on force class using simunitions and role players? Reply Rob…were my eyes deceiving me, or do you have one wicked looking scar on your stomach? I thought I saw it when you drew from appendix carry. By the way, always like your videos and instructional information. Reply Thanks ! Those were my wickedly ripped abs… or maybe a shadow ? Or, possibly, the bottom of a tat I’ve got on my rib cage ?? Actually: It is almost definitely the edge of the tan leather of the CrossBreed Super Tuck holster I am wearing 🙂 ! Reply I want to say right up front that while I do not open carry 100% of the time, nor do I conceal 100% of the time I have a slight preference for concealed. That having been said I’ve found Rob’s overview of open carry as a tactical disadvantage somewhat superficial and the previous, over sensationalized open vs. concealed shout-fest wasted energy that should’ve been spent getting legislators to repeal RKBA restrictions. I think Rob’s made a legitimate effort to characterize his point here, as well as identifying up front he doesn’t prefer open carry. Keep in mind that he’s using one method of concealment here, and that’s a pretty fast method of engagement. If you use another holster, gun position, you mileage may vary. He’s made a couple of good points that I’ve learned myself at the other end of airsoft guns in scenarios that taught me first hand that there is no “one right answer”. Rob’s “burst through your front door” scenario isn’t just applicable to the home. One force on force exercise I took part in – one of many “stop and rob” scenarios had me being the victim of a strong arm robbery. I was one of the armed patrons and I went from zero to hero in about 1.5 seconds. Yup. I aced the “highly trained operator with 2 or 3 face shots. Then his hidden partner popped me in the gut with a .38 ( sims gun ). Had I sat on my tactical advantage a little bit, I’d have had a better chance at surviving. In another scenario, very similar I did survive, and stop the threat, but it was two on one. The bad guys didn’t know who was armed, the good guys didn’t know who was armed. As it happened, 2 of us unloaded on the robber in that scenario, 3 of us ended up being armed. Don’t dismiss Rob’s vocalization advice either. Sure, if they kick down your door, they are not going to play Austin Powers Super Villain on you, and tie you up for laser wearing shark fodder several pages later … they’re probably going to kill you within a few moments, probably once they know they have everyone in one place. Buying time is a perfectly legitimate strategy. Again, if they’ve burst in your front door, you’re already behind the OODA loop, if you try to engage an armed target, pointing a gun at you, you are going to lose 99 times out of 100. But, if you change the dynamic enough get cover… different story. Most people don’t notice an OC Citizen. I would include most police officers in this as well. While most cops are fantastic at observing a vehicle registration sticker that is from the month past from half a mile away, unless you’re fiddling with a poorly fitting belt, holster & or mag carrier, and if your gait is normal they will probably dismiss you as a non-threat and eye someone else they’re thinking about. Unless you’re the only one in sight. The average public is not looking at hands, waistband, pockets & feet. Neither is the average criminal, including tweakers & junkies, a likely segment who might participate in Rob’s hypothetical door breakdown. Or you could end up with a couple knuckleheads like the guys in the LA bank robbery. You just don’t know. Real life is not like hollywood, USPSA, IPSC, IDPA or 3 gun, the targets aren’t cardboard and sometimes they shoot back or try to engage you hand to hand. Maybe something from the video will fit into your strategy & tactics, or maybe not. Just don’t dismiss it because of the sometimes controversial ‘open vs. concealed’ topic matter. Reply Outstanding! Thanks… for a second I thought we were falling right back into that thing where soap-boxers try to turn OC v CC training issues into a political discussion. You made some great points as well! -RJP Reply I carry all day, everywhere with a CB, STD, but then I’m retired and can. I’m also a OFWG who is disabled and does not move like I used to. Do not OC because I don’t want to have another reason some coward will attack me first (seems the cowards like old disabled folks to attack). But my main reason, is familiarity. I don’t want to have to try and remember what type of carry or weapon I’m wearing when the SHTF. I practice in my garage with home made targets with BB and Pellet guns just like the real thing to hone my skills. Yes the recoil is not there, but the presentation is always the same as with a real firearm! Reply I’m not sure why everyone is bagging on the “calm down” thing. If rob was saying to verbally engage the person INSTEAD of presenting a weapon already in hand, that’s one thing. The verbal presentation is used as a distraction to actually get at your weapon. I consider it good advice, a modification of the classic bar fight winning technique of asking the guy a question and initiating junk kick as they start answering… Reply My guess is that many of the folks replying to this thread have never been subject to an actual home invasion and to just how rapid, chaotic, and dynamic it actually is. In the average home, it is very likely that an intruder can kick in even a fairly secure door, and be on top of you or a family member, faster than most people can respond. ANYTHING you can do to buy time or allow yourself more options can be a life saver. Keep in mind, folks, the scenario Rob sets out to address in this video is an actual kick-in-your-door home invasion, not a sneak-in-quietly in the middle of the night, and hope to remain undetected type of thing as is often portrayed in various TV and theatrical productions. This is a FIGHT, and chances are, it is a fight in which your adversary already has the drop on you through his element of surprise and his display of violence. If you think your “quick draw” (from CC OR OC) will be fast enough to gun down this adversary who already has the drop on you and, God forbid, might already be in physical contact with a loved one and using them as a hostage or human shield, you’d be wise to start questioning the depth of the tactics you have in your bag of tricks. Having to verbally communicate with this person to some extent is absolutely a possibility as is having to fight them physically just to get a chance to possibly bring your gun into play. The entire, “if you forcibly enter my home, I will gun you down” attitude is just so much nonsense that doesn’t stand up to the reality of a real dynamic home invasion in most cases. If you doubt me, I invite you to enroll in nearly any quality FoF class to see just how poorly this kind of tactic really works in this type of situation. Reply I agree with everything Rob said in this video. While I do support our right to open carry in states that allow it, I personally don’t do it. As Rob points out, you gain absolutely no tactical advantage from openly displaying your weapon and in some cases you may compromise any tactical advantage you might have had in doing so. You give up nothing either in terms of speed or tactical advantage by concealing your weapon. The only thing I disagree with in the video is appendix carry. 🙂 Good stuff and the presentation was superb. Reply Thanks! Reply “As Rob points out, you gain absolutely no tactical advantage from openly displaying your weapon and in some cases you may compromise any tactical advantage you might have had in doing so.” I think that phraseology might be taking it just a bit too far. I personally know of 2 instances, one which resulted in shots fired, another in which none were fired wherein both good guys, were open carrying and it almost certainly had a tactical advantage. The person in scenario 1 is personally known to me, training partners you might say. #1. good guy is in a stop and rob, open carrying when 2 people approach the store. One stays outside, one busts in and begins to speak, notices Rob’s favorite, old Slabsides .45 cocked & locked on the GG right hip, and they make eye contact. The person who burst into the store did a rapid about face, ran out, grabbed his friend who joined him in running, shouting something along the lines of “Five Oh” 2: a frequent cowboy action shooter, also in a (different) stop and rob, who for whatever reason is wearing his SAA replica .45. Strong arm robbery occurs, and by God’s good graces, our CAS and designated good guy in this story, uses his SAA on said bad guy. Successfully. I’m not advocating open carry here, nor am I advocating the carry of SAA replicas, 1911’s, but, I think the blanket statement that open carry provides no advantage, or even a tactical disadvantage in all places, at all times is simply false. Again, I tend to conceal more than I open carry, but I’m certain that incident 1 above prevented a violent crime from happening and I’m pretty darn sure it had something to do with the bad guys evaluating the tactical situation and realizing they stood a real chance of getting plugged. Rob’s scenario is still a valid example of when you don’t have the element of surprise, are caught behind the OODA loop, etc. In our homes we tend to spend a good deal of time outside conditions red & yellow. Reply Thanks for the post, DAve. I know that you meant it to be supportive to my position in general. But, I feel compelled to address the examples your provided before someone else might try to use them as their own justifications for OC’ing. The first anecdote has a few holes in it that I’d love to have filled in that we won’t ever get the answers to: What did the guy say when he began to speak? Did he display a weapon? How does your buddy know that they said outside the store?… if you think this means I am doubting the veracity of your friends story, you are CORRECT. Ask any cop about the accuracy of eye-witness testimony. Ask them about First Person eye-witness testimony during stressful events. Every study ever done on the subject says that we should be very skeptical of it. Third person retelling only adds to the question marks. There IS, however, a very often repeated story of some armed robbers who got caught in the act down in GA and they said that they were going to rob another location earlier in the evening, but saw men carrying cans ( I believe it was a Waffle House) and chose not to. This is ONE solid example where it appears that OC had a deterrent effect…. but there are an army of people hanging their hat on that one example. As for your second story, I fail to see how OC helped in that situation. And, seriously, choosing to follow the example of the guy who was carrying an SAA for defensive purposes ?? I absolutely think that OC is a tactical disadvantage when we are looking at the complete body of plausible scenarios… but I wouldn’t say that it must be a tactical disadvantage in every possible scenario… that would be ludicrous. We can all think of scenarios where it would provide an advantage, including the deterrent possibility… Both sides can come up with hypotheticals that make the choices appear equal. There are simply too many things that can go wrong with OC that just CAN’T occur with CC and only one thing (the deterrent) that can go right with OC that can’t happen with CC. -RJP Rob, First, I want to thank you for your participation here. I appreciate your advise and expertise and your good nature toward the trolls. Having said that, I want to disagree somewhat with your assertion that CC is better than OC. That debate has more to do with personal preference than anything else. For instance, while I fully subscribe to the notion that shit can happen anytime or anywhere, I choose not to carry my pistol in my home, opting instead to rely on my Mossberg 12 ga firing a 1 oz slug. I live out in a rural area, but not so rural that there’s no one around for miles. I can throw a rock and hit my neighbors house. We’re a relatively crime free neighborhood. But I would like to address something that’s a little sideways from the topic, and that’s OC in general. I’ve been OC’n for a while now and have had relatively no trouble at all other than being asked to put my gun in my car when I went into a shopping mall with my gun and didn’t see the “no guns” sign. There wasn’t a confrontation, just a polite request. I thought when I first started OC’n that women would hurriedly shoo their children away from me at the Walmart, but it hasn’t happened a single time, and I know Mom saw the gun. I thought I would get some ‘funny looks’, but I’ve yet to notice a single one. I expected to have more than a few encounters with our local LEO’s, and I admit, I’ve had two of them so far. Both cops thanked me for open carrying. I met both of them in restaurants while I was eating and they both came in to eat as well. Both were on duty, in uniform and had family with them. Neither was there because of me. In all the months I’ve been carrying, in all the very public places I’ve carried, (including banks), I’m not aware of a single instance in which someone called 911 to report me. Now to my main gripe; I’m going to be the first person the bad guys take out? While this is statistically possible, and has happened a (very) few times, I double dare you to prove that it’s common. It’s not. In fact, it’s common for bad guys to run like a little girl at the first sight of a gun in the hands of someone other than themselves or their cohorts. For a long list of reasons, bad guys rarely want to stand toe to toe with someone that’s going to shoot back. Bad guys look for easy prey. Is it possible for someone to get the drop on me? Of course it is, but it’s just as possible I’ll get shot for just standing there. In the 10 seconds I’ve got left after I’ve been shot I’d like to think I’d make a difference. I don’t want to have to fumble for my gun at a time when thousandths of a second count. Also, I’m kind of an old fart. Not as fast as I used to be. I also suffer from Dunlop disease. You know, the one where my belly dun lopped over my belt. It would be a lot of heavy lifting to get at my appendix positioned weapon. I would also have problems reaching around to the nape of my back as I have to wear suspenders, so my shirt has to be tucked in. Aside from the obvious imprinting, it’s not an easy place to access. I also can’t wear a second, un-tucked, shirt over my suspenders as I simply get too hot. Thus, I don’t have a lot of choice if I’m going to carry in public. It’s OC or sweat like a pig. Imprinting and sweating in public isn’t a good combination. The ability to draw and fire a weapon accurately and successfully is best achieved by a lot of practice. You have clearly honed your skills drawing from a variety of locations under your bowling shirt by practicing it tens of thousands of times. I’m never going to be a quick draw artist, but I’m quicker with OC than CC, and I practice. To each his own. Thank you again for posting and I look forward to going through the rest of the series from Crossbreed. I also hope to read many more posts from you. You obviously have a lot of expertise to impart. Reply Well, thanks for the statement of general support for the effort and the time you took to justify your position. We do disagree…. I think you make a lot of assumptions that work in your favor (bad guys look for easy prey, people don’t notice OC’ers, You’ll have 10 seconds left after you get shot, etc.) and you sell yourself short in a couple of ways (you could train to draw from concealment, you could lose some of that extra weight, etc.). I have a policy: When making assumptions, assume that things will go wrong for me. Figure out which of those assumptions I CAN influence and then work on them. I can’t influence whether the bad guy looks at me as a potential threat or an easy way to steal a gun. I can’t influence whether the bullet that strikes me kills me instantly or leaves me wounded by capable of fighting. I can’t influence whether or not the bad guy will notice that I have a gun on if I carry it openly. I CAN influence my fitness & my skill level and I can take away the opportunity for the bad guy to see my gun if I simply conceal it. My bet would be that with a few months of hard work in the first two areas, your concealed draw times would equal your current open draw times and you’d be in a lot more control in general. -RJP Reply Again I agree with your comments. People tend to think in best case scenarios and even in averages. How many times have you heard someone say something like, “the average number of rounds fired in a gunfight is 2.7 rounds”. People then use the average (best case scenario) to justify why they carry a 5 shot pocket pistol over a 17 shot pistol on their hip. What about the guy that needed 10 rounds to end the fight but only had 5 on tap? Do you want to be that guy? The obvious mistake in their reasoning is the assumption that the best case scenario will almost always prevail. However, if you talk to people who have been in gunfights most will tell you things didn’t go as they thought they would. Plan and train for the worst and hope for the best. Open carrying introduces more problems than it solves. Some people OC simply because they can, not because it’s the most prudent course of action. There’s a small part of their ego being stroked by walking around openly armed. They want people to notice. Sometimes it’s a political statement being made, other times it’s nothing more than it feels “cool” being able to do it. I’m with you, if winning a fight is your primary goal your best option is concealed carry. Reply VERY well said! Actually, I’ve given this a lot of thought. My conclusion was that for some people, CC is the right thing to do. For others, OC is the best option for self defense. You’re making a blanket statement that CC is the only good choice for anyone carrying, no matter what. I respectfully disagree. CC is fine for you young guys that are still lightning quick and skinny enough for a belt to hold your pants up. For me…well, try to imagine what it’s like to tighten a belt around the bottom half of a basketball. Three steps and I look like one of those idiot kids walking around with their pants around their knees. (UGLY!) So are you trying to assert that bad guys don’t prey overwhelmingly on the weak? Surely you jest? Not much chance Randy Couture’s going to get mugged. Sorry, but instinct and the entire history of mankind is rooted in the fact that the weak have little chance against the strong, barring an equalizer. Bad guy gonna get me first? Like I said, it’s possible. But it’s also possible he’s going to shoot me even if I cooperate and present no threat whatsoever. That possibility is what gives us the right to pull the trigger. There’s an endless amount of scenarios in which I can be on the losing end if a bad guy sees my gun first. There’s also an endless amount of scenarios where I might prevail. I could be in the next isle, I could be sitting at a table at BK when the bad guy comes in. Every situation is different. My point was, you’re making a blanket statement that OC is always the wrong choice. I asked you to give me examples where an OC’r is on the short end. You can’t because the statistic isn’t there. There are hundreds of thousands if not millions of times every year that a gun is used successfully in someone’s self defense. Out of all of those times, which includes plenty of CC circumstances, how many incidents can you come up with where bad guys gunned down an OC’r? If you really want to answer this question be prepared to spend a lot of time with very little result. It isn’t happening. It is a fabrication. It is the mind telling you that how you envision something is justification in proclaiming it as fact. So let me ask you this; Have you open carried (in public) for any length of time? I’m not talking about a day or two, I’m talking about a month or two. Like you I had all the preconceptions about OC. Public running in terror, cops throwing me to the ground, blah, blah, blah. All of those fears went away when I discovered that OC’n was more of a head trip to me than it was to anyone else. My concerns all went away when I realized my fears were all for naught. I think that as a person who’s opinion is respected, you ought to know both sides before you say one is better than the other. And to M.A.C’s assertions that the best case scenario is how I see things, nothing could be further from the truth. I think only in worst case scenarios. In my case, there is no scenario in which I can’t get shot? The answer of course is no. So my next thought is, how can I get the easiest access to my gun? For me, OC is the best option. I’ve tried many concealed holsters and none work well. Imprinting, obstructed access, by body, my arthritis, ad nauseam. No concealed rig worked for me, mostly because I either carried a Ruger P89 or my SA XD45. Both are big guns with lots of ammo. I OC because it’s prudent. I’m fortunate to live in a state where I can. I can state categorically that it isn’t because of ego or attention or wanting people to notice me. Nor am I making a political statement. Also, my favorite musician is Celine Dion, so I gave up on being cool decades ago. I carry my gun openly because these are dangerous times and I want to be able to defend myself. I don’t want to have to drag a half a mile of shirt out of my pants so I can get to my gun. (Fat guys can’t wear shirts that only tuck in a couple of inches. Rolls of fat hanging out from the bottom of a shirt is just gross.) I also can’t wear two shirts, one tucked in, one not. I overheat. I also carry a gun because even though I’m actually a big guy, not including the belly, I’m also handicapped. Bad heart, diabetes, braces on both my legs, bad lungs, and oh, did I mention, I’m fat. (Thus the handle Buddha). I do have to admit, I am enjoying this (civil) conversation. Reply I was hoping you just were incredibly impressed with the Dalai Lama and liked cats… Oh, well. Don’t let a reliance on OC be a crutch that keeps you from addressing all the real problems you seem to have. It sounds like you have a much higher probability of death from health issues than from not getting to your gun carried in a fanny pack or under a vest (light enough to keep you from “over-heating”. Where there is a will, there is a way… where there are rationalizations, there is complacency. I hope you don’t take offense, you opened the door to what I see are much larger (no pun intended) issues than OC vs. CC… the point is supposed to be staying safer over an extended period of time, right ? -RJP While we might disagree, I fully support your right (our right) to open carry. It’s just not for me. When I speak about attitudes and reasons for wanting to OC, I am pulling from years of experience and countless friends who both carry openly and concealed. Most of the folks I know who carry openly do so to make a political statement. They even organized open carry gatherings at a local restaurant every Wednesday. We all have our reasons for doing things and I’m in no position to say “you’re wrong”. However, I am in a position to say “I disagree” and on this topic many of us will disagree. ROTFLMAO. Kinda a little of both. I came up with the handle because I consider myself to be a happy, fat kat. Wish it was the rich kind of fat cat but it ain’t. I carried the fanny pack for longer than anything else, but it too had its drawbacks. My decision to OC was based on practicality. It would take me longer to fish out my gun if I had it stuffed down my pants. As far as what I’m likely to die from, I can only hope it’s for something health related, other than lead poisoning that is. 🙂 I’m still gonna stick with my challenge to backup your statement with statistics. I say you can’t because it simply isn’t happening as frequently as you’re trying to indicate. You are talking about hypothetical’s that are simply not based on fact. You also didn’t answer my question, Have you ever open carried for any length of time? Cheers, Reply Yes, I OC’d for years as a cop… as I remember them, those times were full of confrontations 🙂 . What is this supposed to mean: “I’m still gonna stick with my challenge to backup your statement with statistics. I say you can’t because it simply isn’t happening as frequently as you’re trying to indicate. You are talking about hypothetical’s that are simply not based on fact.” What did I say was “happening” ? I freely admit that I am using hypotheticals… but they are hypotheticals based on existing data (like the demo in the video above) and logic. “hope” is not a method… and many people are just HOPING they aren’t the target of a gun grabber, they are HOPING a bad guy doesn’t see them as a threat that needs to be taken out, they are HOPING that they don’t get into a verbal confrontation with a drunk guy who sees their gun and decides to taunt them, they are HOPING that a cop doesn’t misunderstand their carry and take what he perceives to be as appropriate action. No one can ‘prove’ that those things CAN’T happen… but, any rational person has to agree that they COULD. Lot’s of poor debaters (or thinkers) try to twist that line of logical thought to make it sound like I am saying that those things happen all the time or that they are guaranteed to happen to anyone who OCs… that is just silly. -RJP Reply LEAVE A REPLY Cancel reply Please enter your comment! Please enter your name here You have entered an incorrect email address! Please enter your email address here Save my name, email, and website in this browser for the next time I comment. Notify me of follow-up comments by email. Notify me of new posts by email.