“Former Arizona Rep. Gabrielle Giffords and husband Mark Kelly are trying to enlist veterans in their effort to bring about changes in gun laws, most notably to expand the use of background checks,” the AP reports. Which is especially heinous considering all enlisted men and women must swear an oath to uphold and defend the United States Constitution, whose Second Amendment prohibits any and all infringement on Americans’ individual, natural and civil right to keep and bear arms. Oh wait, wasn’t Kelly in the Navy? And didn’t Giffords swear the same oath before taking office? Huh. “Kelly joined Friday with a handful of former military leaders to announce the formation of Veterans for Responsible Solutions . . . Kelly says veterans provide a unique voice to the gun debate because they know how to use firearms responsibly.” As opposed to . . . ?
The Appleseed Project has been forced to create a “Reduced Round Count course of fire” to help those who don’t have the 250 rounds to make for a nice weekend. If Appleseed had more .22lr, they could fill the gap. Everyone please consider a donation. It will be used on site and not put in a coffee can.
Unfortunately, one of the most vicious debates I experienced on gun control was at a military base with an Air Force NCO.Being that I was the junior member, I had to tactically retreat from that engagement.
I thought that was just an outlier, but then I heard from fellow Airmen that they had problems getting approved for Air Force base gun permits.Turned out their NCOs, unlike my supervisor, were antis who’d never sign the approval paperwork.
This is a cause for more concern then we realize.
the US military as an organization overall seems to have crumpled to the anti-gun politics, regardless of branch.
Just the officers and higher up NCOs like brigade sgm and the sma E-7 and below are pretty much for gun rights in my experience.
(ch)Air force? No one actually cares what they think.
Well, I can see them enlisting Wesley Clark.
ANOTHER group?! When did these groups get genitals and start reproducing?
Without a doubt the most used quote on this blog applies here too….”I say we nuke them from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”
Start a veterans organization opposed to 2nd amendment infringement. I’m sure you’d get more members and make Kelly look like an even bigger ass.
Neither one for me actually. The M11-A1 (P228) is a little bit of a marketing gimmick for HSLD wannabes. That’s OK as far as it goes if you’re into that sort of thing. Paying a significant premium for some nifty roll stamping and a UID label just doesn’t make it for me. On the other hand, the P229 with a street price in my area of a little under $800 is the way I’d go. The two guns have nearly identical specs and the 229 has a rail if you need one. The short reset trigger on the M11 is a nice touch but you can have that added to the 229 pretty easily and it’s not a lot of money to do so. I’ve got two P226’s that have performed flawlessly for me, I’d expect the same from the 229. After I acquire 226 #3 (one for each member of my family), I expect to get a 229 for the collection.
As far as the HK goes, I’m sure that it’s a fine firearm. I don’t dig their corporate philosophy so I won’t be doing business with them.
All haters aside, I don’t think anyone can provide supportive documents criticizing reliability or track record of either. Truth be told, both are fine handguns and both companies make excellent products. That being said, my two main carry guns are a Glock 19 and a Kahr MK9 elite due to my ability to conceal them depending on what I am wearing. I also recently sold a Sig MK25 which had a trigger job, 20 round Magwell grip, etc., so it’s no wonder I could not conceal it very well, but even with the trigger job, I just was not a huge fan of the trigger. It was just me, I am not crazy about double action/single action pistols. I then purchased a HK 45 Compact Tactical, because I wanted another .45, I liked the ability to change the trigger to a variant 5 (double action all the time). Also, it is able to be concealed by me a little easier and I liked the threaded barrel making it suppressor ready. In fairness to the Sig, I was the one who added the 20 round Magwell grip which made it less concealable and I can’t really ding the MK25 because I was the one who decided that I wanted another .45 which was suppressor ready. Never had a reliability issue with either.
I’m a vet and this in no bueno. One, having served carries different weight and respect, it does not make us magically superior in the manipulation of firearms nor morally superior in telling the people it’s okay to have any right that is protected in the Constitution infringed upon.
However, I have seen more Air Force dudes wanting to regulated the 2nd than compared to other services (like “assault weapons” are not for “civilian” use) and it’s mostly career officers in any branch that love any all forms of gun control for everybody (whether a civilian or a service member).
Funny, I am active duty AF and you don’t hear that shit from us….nice try though
I’d say the Sig, but really that’s based on very limited information. I’ve heard all the anectdotes about HK’s attitude, customer service and general post-purchase posture toward the civilian market, which does influence my perception.
On the Sig side, I do own a full size Sig P250 in .45 ACP, which has been a flawless dream of a firearm. It’s not a direct comparison, of course, but it’s something related. So I’d go with the Sig if I had no further opportunity to evaluate each firearm.
As an Arizonan, a veteran and a gun owner, I am disgusted with Kelly’s ventriloquist act. Thank you for your service; now FOAD.
Will these two ever get real jobs? Geez, I’m tired of them popping up like zits on a teenager.
Why would they? They get so much money from their sponsors just for parroting gun control points. Its just so much more work for them to do desk jobs and paid normal salaries.
“because they (veterans) know how to use firearms responsibly” Twenty one years in the US Navy. Fired about 200 rounds with and old 1911 in boot camp and got an expert medal. Twenty years later got to help get rid of some old .45 ammo off the fantail of the USS Saratoga. I had to ask the gunner to show me how to operate the 1911 because I had not touched another one in all those years. Since retiring I have become a certified NRA instructor in five disciplines, all as a civilian. Most vets get very little firearm training while on active duty. It’s just another anti-gun scam.
Also a vet, also a supporter of our natural rights as citizens. Part of the reason these silly groups are multiplying is the funding from several wealthy anti’s. You can surmise their names. It’s astroturfing to swing the 2014 elections.
I’ve owned both HK and Sig. I still have Sigs, but choose to carry the Glock.
M2 .50 cal. Make them run!
I am a veteran with thirteen years service in the USN and the USMC. Sign me up for a veterans pro 2A organization.
Never had any real hands on experience with a HK… I do dust off a Sig P220 every now and then, so I’d grab the Sig.
They just want to use veterans as a shield from criticism. How can you disagree with a veteran? Why do you hate our veterans? This sort of junk is why they start an org like this. It also plays well with the main stream media who can pretend that the only veterans group speaking out on gun rights is Kelly/Gifford’s group. All other groups standing up for gun rights will be ignored. It’s all about perception and telling a lie to the public over and over, until the public buys it.
It also allows them to scam more money out of people’s good will toward veterans as I will bet my house, they never mention they are a gun control group in their fundraising letters.
If that’s the choice I get, I’ll go with the HK.
When is HK going to bring back the P7? Only HK that ever appealed to me. For that matter The Sig P230/232 is the only Sig I ever liked. Make them in 9mm this time.
For that price, I’d be buying a toy with a bonus. If that were the case, I think I’d go for the Five seveN.
ps: fcuk HK.
Here he goes again, pimping the Mrs and victicrat mentality. I am very sorry what happened to her, but those were the actions of Loughner, not me nor millions of other gun owners. I am a law-abiding gun owner and I do not intend to be disarmed by him or anyone else. I’m a veteran and proud member of the NRA, GOA and my local shooting club. I served to protect the rights of all Americans, while this tool works to take them away. I am very politically involved in working to protect my 2A rights in my area. Mark Kelly is like a wooden puppet with Bloomberg’s hand up his rear-end. I don’t care whether or not he is a veteran or an astronaut, his current actions speak volumes about his nature. I am a veteran too, and I will oppose his bullcrap agenda until my last breath. Asshat….
1
1
Whichever is closer.
That said, I do love my Sig P229 (and have nothing against HK’s).
You can be 100% sure that anybody who puts “responsible” or “common sense” next to their solutions has neither responsibility, nor common sense, nor solutions to the problem at hand…and odds are, the problem they’re on about doesn’t even exist. Unless the lamentable excess of freedom in this country is the problem they’re trying to solve. They’re trying their best on that one.
The theory is, “a lie told often enough (and stridently enough) eventually becomes a “truth”.”
It worked for Hitler and Goebbels. That’s the playbook they’re working from.
A group like this is a slap in the face of all veterans. It is like if somebody would say that only Navy SEALs should own AR’s because they have the training…. Oh, wait a tic……
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/09/robert-farago/failed-ma-senate-candidate-wrong-oppose-assault-weapons-ban/
@ Kelly. As a veteran I’m deciding to add my unique voice to the debate, do the responsible thing and not join. Probably for the very same reasons you think I should. Oh…and I think you’re a peckerhead.
Sig. Because my P220 wants a “little” brother.
Which one would I grab? Well, it depends on which type of grabber I am.
If I’m a gun grabber, I grab BOTH of them because they’re evil and you can’t have them.
If I’m just my own self, I grab neither of them because they both cost far too much. I don’t have that kind of money to spend on a pistol, especially not when I already have two super-reliable Springfield polymer pistols.
If I have somehow found myself in some fantasy world where expensive guns are suddenly free for the taking, I’d grab both. Because hey, free guns. If I’m limited to one of them, I’d pick up the HK because it fires a caliber I already have on hand, and because I’ve fired one before and it was pretty cool.
Oh, I get it alright. Here you have an elite demographic imbued with special knowledge and experience due to their status as “veterans”. Of course they should be allowed to arbitrate what’s right for me and mine, as they posses the pure true knowledge like no others, therefore their word should be law. Well, all I can really say to that is that they can kiss my sweet Irish ass and I’ll make it my mission in life to see them all in Hell; the ignorant, pusillanimous, traitorous tools that they are.
This kind of reminds me of Gabriel Gomez, the SEAL and US Senate candidate from Massachusetts that recently had the epiphany, after he lost the election, that all of those nasty “assault weapons” don’t really have a place in mere “civilian” hands. What the hell, if you’re going to shake hands with the Devil, you might as well slip him a little tongue and spread your cheeks while you’re at it.
They’ve successfully divided the American people so next up? American Veterans.
Divide and conquer, the oldest trick in the book.
Any volunteers?
We already have such an organization:
http://oathkeepers.org/oath/
drew says:
November 8, 2013 at 12:59
If I wasn’t a black man, I would open carry. But given the history of police brutality and shooting unarmed black men, I stay concealed everywhere it is legal in my state.
—
That is a good policy basically anywhere in the USA, due to the assumption of criminality (Thanks a lot ghetto thugs and the news media that love them!). Always remember if you get involved in a DGU, re-holster concealed as soon as possible to avoid being shot by responding officers. You may be familiar with that case in NYC where a Black plainclothes Detective with his pistol out was shot multiple times by responding officers. This stuff can happen, in fact that scenario has happened more than once in NYC. Conversely, when you are traveling in areas known to be hostile to Black males (especially if you are with a female whose presence may be deemed “controversial”) it is good policy to have a carbine handy (M1?) in case of ambush, to at least have a fighting chance to escape in case of multiple opponents (Remember what happened to Bill Cosby’s son when he was stranded on the freeway). Unfortunately, there are still all too many low-brows out there whose last thought is that you may be an Allen West conservative and productive member of society. Then there are those who are simply criminal minded goblins/bullies looking for an easy mark to terrorize. Don’t (ever!) be that “victim”. Survival is the first rule…
Makarov, sans the huge dip in my lower lip. I had to give up the Kodiak 5 years ago & miss that stuff everyday.
You wouldn’t understand; you haven’t lived in Massachusetts. I did, for 59 years, until I got the hell out of there and moved to America, aka Arizona. If you want to transfer a gun to a relative or good friend in MA, you have to fill out a form and send it in to the Department of Public Safety. Fortunately, many people fill out the form and send it directly to the circular file. MA sucks, as do NY, CA, NJ, CT, MD, etc., etc.. What happens in those People’s Republics has nothing to do with what this country is all about. The Boston Globe is a commie rag, just like its owner, the NYTimes. Here in AZ, we have the AZ Daily Star, which wants to be the Boston Globe when it grows up. Same cancer…just hasn’t been excised yet.
If having the entire population of NYC disarmed for the concept of safety for everyone is good enough for the average citizen, why isn’t it for him? Or…is he willing to admit that the archaic gun laws of NYC do not keep one safe? Because if he needs armed guards…he’s admitting it’s not safe at out there…and unless everyone is getting six armed guards…why not entrust them to at least be their own guard?
So is the 6.5 caracano 50 years old yet?
Thank you, Lord Nick, for allowing we simpletons to keep any firearms. Yutz. (At least his finger is outside the trigger guard.)
They will always try to find a way to take away our rights no matter how underhanded.
We all know those women would be alive today, because they’re invulnerable to all forms of harm other than bullets. They certainly wouldn’t succumb to an attack with a machete, which anyone can purchase at any hardware store, no questions asked. Or with a baseball bat, available at sporting goods retailers across the country.
Nope, just bullets.
SIG. The only handguns I’ve owned that were are reliable as Glocks.
//start of rant
To say the purpose of the Constitution is to limit the power of the federal government is to imply that the federal government is an entity in and of itself with power to do what ever it wants, which is quite the opposite of reality. The Constitution is actually the founding document or charter for the federal government. It specifies what powers the citizens of this country have granted to the federal government. The best place to see this is in the 10th amendment, which basically states that if a power isn’t in the constitution, then the federal government doesn’t have that power. Because of this the proper reading of the bill of rights isn’t that it protects the citizens rights, because if a right needs protecting from the government then it isn’t a right it is a privilege that the government bestows on the citizen. No the proper reading of the bill of rights is a series of examples of things the federal government is not allowed to do. Just because a right isn’t protected in the bill of rights doesn’t mean that the citizen shouldn’t have a reasonable expectation that the government won’t infringe upon it. We need to quit using the liberal/communist/socialist definition of what the constitution is and adopt the correct interpretation based on what the founding fathers established.
//end of rant
Cops would not be little Napoleans if we took away their guns. The majority of good police work does not involve the gun. It is just a tool but some cops feel it is their only tool. Tools with tools….
The problem is that Bill of Rights is the LAW OF THE LAND. That means no matter who or how many (mob rule) it can not be changed by a new law, the courts, and even by a larger number of votes etc. And every public office in the LAND (U.S.A.) is under it’s say.. To do so means We have NO LAW , meaning the LAW is only what we say it is for today…..No,No….the Bill Of RIGHTS can not be changed for ANY REASONS …That is the check and balance the FOUNDERS put in place before they would accept A United States…..
I laugh at the 90% support argument.
Suppose 90% wanted the US government to pass a law to track down and eliminate every ginger in the US. Would the NY Times and the Boston Globe support the law just because 90% wanted gingers dead?
I realize this is a strawman, but majority rule always degenerates to mob rule. And mob rule is a fickle bitch.
Police wouldn’t know the constitution or their state constitution if it jumped up and bit them in the ASSociation.
Sig – all day, every day.
I carry a P226 as my conceal carry weapon. Love it, love everything about it.
Officer who promotes 2A all day everyday. I know all the officer stereotypes, and lord knows I serve with quite a few who need to find another line of work, but this “joe knows best and all the officers are going to get us killed nonsense” gets old. I had the best NCOs in the army, and continue to serve with those of the same calibre. Enlisted guys just the same. I did have bad apples in every rank as well… Joes, NCOs, warrants and RLOs… Polarizing each rank, branch, etc gets tiresome with all the anti-officer stuff on here sometimes.
I was lucky that everyone I served with was pro gun or at least open to it… I did have a less than cordial conversation with another captain about him “understanding” magazine restrictions… I about lost it… A CIB wearing infantry guy no less… Perhaps he lost his pocket copy of the constitution…
Get the Obamacare website working, then come talk to me about Universal (registration) Background Checks.
Not my guy, but if it’s him or Hillary, he will be.
Off topic a bit, but I just noticed the “The Coalition to Stop Gun Violence Reads TTAG” bit off to the side.
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“state law requires Massachusetts gun owners to keep their firearms locked away or rendered inoperable.” I thought that entire idea was struck down as unconstitutional in the Heller decision?
I’m STRONGLY in favor of this move. I’m tired of incremental government overreach and want the G to do now what it wants so desperately to do in the future. Stop and frisk on the streets without a reasonable suspicion, warrantless home searches, quashing First Amendment rights through selective IRS enforcement, tapping of phones and reading people’s emails without warrants, I want it all and I want it big.
Let the G finally end the pretense that it’s there for our own good and let the consequences happen, whatever they are.
I was pretty excited to see a tactical plinker made by Anschutz, but then I visited their website and read:
“The MSR RX 22TM is a joint development by three German companies: ANSCHÜTZ, GERMAN SPORT GUNS and ESC Ulm.”
GSG? Thanks but no thanks, especially since they’re going for $770 and up on Gunbroker 🙁
I’m rather inspired to give my savage axis a new stock – I’d keep the synthetic one for hunting and brush bashing, but one of those Boyd ones would be a nice show off piece for range visits.
In the last month or so, there have been numerous accounts of LEO’s harassing law abiding gun owners, and I for one am appalled at the behavior of WI LEO’s…
I never said anything about a counter protest or anything. It is simply commemorating the event with a steadfast declaration to not let it happen again. To prevent violent individuals from preying on the helpless. Which, amusingly enough, is the alleged end goal of all of these anti gun groups. Basically it would be demonstrating that standing around and shilling about wanting to make people feel safe is nothing compared to taking and stand and demonstrating a willingness to act.
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