Kel-Tec PF-9. I’m more interested in his holster set-up. How did George Zimmerman manage to extract the gun while on his back? How visible would it have been for Trayvon Martin if Zimmerman was on his back, given that the defense counsel mentioned the possibility of a gun grab by the teen. How easy would it have been to remove the gun at that angle?
Do we know his carry method? If he was appendix it would be fairly easy to get your gun out while laying on your back.
+1 All commentary I read leaves one with the impression he carried to the front of his body.
In my unwise youth, had a guy try to sucker punch me one evening at a bar, wasnt a smart move on his part, and as I pulled back for the follow up, saw he was reaching behind him, and immeadiately put my knee on his arm, and introduced him to the floor, he had a nice little S&W 39 9mm he carried in the small of his back. Kneed less to say, he wasnt able to finish his move as being unconscious tends to stop most voluntary movement, I got lucky!
I wasn’t even drinking that evening.
That being said, unless you are an expert ground fighter, who can pin your opponent from making a move, as fear does endow great adrenilan strength at times, anything short of a small of the back carry can be reached, and being that Martin was supposedly reaching for it, Zimmerman had to have it on either side, which a person on top could most definitely feel the gun on his hip with their knees/legs or even see the person making a move for it!
My buddy a SWAT Cop, on a breach, had a 5’6″ something 145lb man, turn a gun against the 1st man through, a 245lb NFL lineman size guy, who had both hands on the perps gun arm, and couldnt stop him from turning the gun on him, so he had to shoot to save his team members life!
So lots of possibilities!
“I wasn’t even drinking that evening.”
Thanks you for being there to provide rides for the drunks. That was nice of you.
I was thinking the same thing. I don’t recognize the make / model, though. Could possibly be just your average, generic holster you can get cheap off Amazon or eBay.
Looks like an Uncle Mike;s IWB holster. There’s no retention strap or system that I’m aware of so it’s possible that if you were struggling with someone that felt the gun he could lift it right out of the holster.
To qauote a line from someone wiser than me about carrying a gun. “Never forget that you carry the means of your own destruction on your hip.”
Look it how they ran the cable lock… pros.
I was thinking, if GZ is found not guilty of all charges do they return his gun to him? It’s been jacked up and left in an evidence locker for how long?
Yeah… Every gun I’ve ever had that’s come with a cable lock, the manual says to loop the lock through the mag well and out of the action. Never through the barrel. *facepalm* How do people become LEO’s without any knowledge of firearms.
Not only that, the key is still hanging from the cable. I guess in case anyone should need it.
GZ had an IWB holster.
Hmmm…RF am I detecting that we are obliged to let BG have a try at extracting your pistol before you react? Dont really get it.
Add this to the 21 feet rule. BG hand within reach of your gun crosses the Rubicon. It is now life or death struggle. IMHO time appropriate for eye gouging bone breaking testicle removal or (your call) shooting.
Is it profiling if I assume the guy with the Kel-Tek is the guilty party?
I guess he gets minor points for having a holster, but then loses some for it being a shitty nylon holster.
Shouldn’t that be some kind of defense? I sure as hell wouldn’t want to start a fight if that’s what I had.
I don’t believe for a second Zimmerman was carrying a cable lock with him! Come ON, guys! The cops put it there.
But I don’t think this trial is going to be about the gun; it was just entered into evidence.
It may become party about guns, but not about a specific gun.
That’s OK. Kel Tec and the holster maker will no doubt be co-defendants in the inevitable civil right violation suit to follow if GZ gets off.
A shitty holster is a shitty holster. Nothing personal.
It’s better than nothing, and if it’s all you can swing at the time.
Why is everyone ragging on Kel-Tecs? Lots of folks carry them and I have yet to read a story of one failing in a crisis (I have read of an LCP doing that). If it goes bang when you pull the trigger, who cares about tooling marks or rough edges? You think every Thompson or Garand on Omaha Beach had flawless fit and finish? If you carry to impress your range buddies, that’s your business. But don’t extend your pinky at folks on a budget. Kel-Tecs are not Ravens. They’re simple and they work.
That’s a bold statement. What about 6 out of every 10 PMR-30’s not being able to pass a 1 round function test at the end of the production line, vertical grips destroying the KSG, or P3ATs just not working. Plus you can forget about customer service, part of your job as a keltec employee is to completely ignore the end user. Don’t believe me? Try and get through to them, you’ll end up having to send them an email that you’ll receive no reply to. I’d rather carry a hi-point.
I have a P3AT and it has never had a failure to feed, fire, eject or extract (except with steel cased ammo). Meanwhile, my SIG Sauer P290 has had numerous light strikes and now I have to send it to Exeter. That, plus everything you mentioned, are 1st gen problems. These are not limited to K-T. Look how many recalls Ruger has done. Even the mighty Glock had its problems early on.
I have never dealt with K-T customer service, but many forum postings disagree with your assessment.
I have a Kel Tec P-11 POS out of the box but with a little TLC it is now as reliable as my wife’s Beretta Storm. I see nothing wrong with them and think it was a good choice for CC, light small and good cal. The PF 9 is the same gun only a little smaller and with 8 instead of 10 rd. mag.
I love how they left the key attached to the security lock.
I don’t think the holster is an Uncle Mikes. UM and Blackhawk! use black size tags. Probably a locally-made generic like they sell at Academy.
Slightly off subject but I dont understand buying a cheap holster for a $300+ investment that could one day save your life. If it works for the owner then who am I to judge but I still dont get it. I saw a security guard at a liquor store once who had his in some cheapo kydex holster at a near appendix carry position, it would have been nothing for me to snatch his gun and more likley a chunk of the holster along with it. It wasnt company issue gear either as a majority of companies here require their guards to furnish themselves.
“Mr Zimmerman, did you ever think you’d have to use your gun to save your life?”
“No, I did not.”
“Couldn’t we even go so far as to state you must have thought you really would never do that due to the gun you had?”
“Excuse me? I don’t fol-”
“Well, Mr Zimmerman, it’s a Kel-Tec.”
Hey hey hey now. I have a sub-2000 and that thing is about the most fun we have out at the farm on range days. Everyone wants to shoot it and its minute of cantaloupe at 100yds makes everyone laugh at its absurdness.
Yeah Kel-Tec’s are great… Right up until they stop working.
Please send hops, Mike. I think we both know what kind.
The gun did do the job. Super thin, light, and not too expensive. Not everyone wants to carry a Glock Brick, though Kahrs are pretty good, except pricey.
I have a PF-9 and have fired hundred’s of rounds through it with no issues. It is my every day carry and not because of it’s cost but because it is a good cc pistol. I’m actually gonna get another one to keep in my truck.
2 witnesses have brought up new things and when asked why they never told anyone about it before, they said they were never asked before.
Then on top of that prosecution uses a witness that is the only one whoever said there was 3 shots. She’s also easily the most biased by far, essentially coming up with new things based upon what the media has said and making public statements to this effect.
Chase, I actually watched some of that testimony by the girl that said she was on the phone with TM that night. If that’s the best the state has GZ may walk completely on these charges.
Don’t make fun of me pls…but I watched the ENTIRE three days of testimony so far. I agree…the prosecution witnesses are unbelievably bad. In fact when you have MSNBC legal analyst laughing at how effed up they are you know State has a problem. That lady that heard 3 shots nearly had a freaking meltdown on the 911 call for 15 MINUTES with the operator. It turned into the guy consoling her like on a suicide call. And the “mystery” girl on the cell phone…well…again not my words but MSNBC said she ain’t the sharpest tool in the shed ! And in the last 5 minutes today had a TOTAL meltdown in cross examination. Lawyer on Orlando tv station said she is cooked. Will probably be declared first Hostile witness tomorrow.
REALLY? ALL of it? Did your girlfriend leave you or what?
Tommy, don’t feel bad. I’ve watched all three days, too. My excuse today was jury duty.
“May?” The only way Zimmerman doesn’t walk is the 6 ladies on the jury catch some contagious disease that causes them to be directly manipulated by the prosecution via mind control to write “Guilty” instead of “Not Guilty” on their decision card.
This literally is the best the State of Florida has and the witness today is all the state had when they charged Zimmerman. I’ll repeat: THIS IS IT. The defense hasn’t even started. The Governor should mercy kill this trial tonight out of pure embarrassment.
J&D, I’m sorry to say that from what I’ve seen so far, Zimmerman is likely to go away for a long time. I have no dog in this fight — in fact, my interest is entirely academic — but that’s my impression as a lawyer.
That predicted outcome could change rapidly. There’s a lot of testimony to be heard. But what will not change, and the reason why he’s going to prison, is this: he killed an unarmed 17 year old.
Ralph, I really think the “unarmed” part of your statement, while true, is a red herring.
If a person picks up a rock, he’s “armed”, empty-handed, he’s “unarmed”. But is there that much of a difference in the end if he’s bringing the rock to your head or your head to the rock?
Exactly how long do you have to allow someone to slam your head into the pavement before you can consider it a threat of “serious bodily harm”? Do you need a concussion? A certain amount of blood? Near loss of consciousness?
I certainly respect the insight from your legal perspective Ralph. My issue is that I have yet to see anything even close to suggesting that Zimmerman broke a single Florida law. TM broke several. We will see.
J&D, what laws did TM break?
But what will not change, and the reason why he’s going to prison, is this: he killed an unarmed 17 year old.
Ralph, I can only assume what you mean is that the jury will convict on emotion, not evidence and the law. If I’m wrong in that interpretation, I’d offer a different view on the law. Florida (as also PA) resets self-defense at a point when a person, even if an equal part in the start of a dust-up, is not only losing the fight, but is constrained from fleeing. Sitting on a defendant or blocking the only exit suffice for that reset. The only point of interest for me in the trial is this: Can the prosecution convince the jury beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not prevented from breaking off from the fight? That he was not on the bottom at the critical moment? That Martin, indeed, was ever on the bottom? It will be interesting to see if evidence supports that conclusion, and if so, how.
Sorry, but this lawyer thinks Zimmerman should get off based on the evidence provided to date.
While a case could be made for Zimmerman stalking Martin via his SUV, and Martin throwing down the second Zimmerman got out (he was in fear of imminent bodily harm), the facts released so far indicate that Zimmerman questioned Martin and then turned to leave. The verbal exchange would have, in the mind of a reasonably prudent person, negated the fear of imminent violence. Martin no longer had an expectation of harm. Zimmerman was no longer the aggressor, and when Martin attacked him, Zimmerman was now the victim.
Aside from the gunshot wound, Martin had bruised knuckles, whereas Zimmerman had a broken nose and lacerations to the back of his skull, consistent with his story of being attacked and getting the worst of it. Really, once Zimmerman tells his side of the story, and experts testify about when deadly force is allowed, the case will be over. A good closing argument is all that is needed.
jwm: Trespassing, as he was cutting through people’s yards, between houses, not in the common areas. Under the influence of marijuana. Assault on George Zimmerman.
Tresspassing? Cutting thru unfenced yards. You’re so desperate to get payback for your school days aren’t you J&D?
Call out the SWAT teams, there’s a kid running thru yards here. Jesus, J&D, you’re a bigger panty wetter than most grabbers.
Assualt on GZ. You were there and know who made the first move? You and O.E. and lower case matt ought to start your own web site.
You are the dude that asked what laws he broke. I simply named 3. Asked and answered. You sure get to name calling quick…
this is the first time i’ve actually heard of a functioning keltec pf9. they sure they have the right weapon?
Mine is dead reliable, and I know a few other guys who carry them and have had nothing but reliability and other good things to report…
Not only that, he was firing S&B ball ammo and carried an uncle mikes holster. Does this scream “trailer park” or what?
Kel-Tec PF-9, Great gun: I carried that model of gun as my back up pocket gun in a Black Hawk pocket holster for years; Shoots every time you pull the trigger. I also had a change out barrel and slide from Kel-Tec that I could shoot .40 caliber self-defense ammo as well.
You may be thinking the P11 (or thicker model, not sure exactly).
They are great guns.
quick heuristic: nylon holster -> idiot -> probably went looking for a fight
plus, he lives in Florida…
…..plus, he lives in Florida…
Means that every driver in the states around or near Florida park and hide when they see a Florida tag go by. :p
Of course, that’s probably the safest course of action anytime you see any car around here. >_<
I have one of the KT P-40’s with the .357 SIG barrel. I sold the P-9 with the P-40 top end and .357 SIG barrel. Both were reliable, IF you knew how to shoot them. Any “limp wristing” and you’d have trouble. I don’t have that problem and never have.
KT got so many of the P-40’s back for “problems” (that functioned perfectly when tested) that they quit making them. The .357 SIG barrel was only available for a short time and only through the factory.
Dunno how hard or easy it would have been for either of the combatants to remove the gun. All we know is that Martin never touched it. No Martin prints, no Martin DNA.
Because every time you touch something you leave prints? or DNA? Funny, that’s not at all what the CSI that testified yesterday said.
The CSI tech at the trial said it was easily possible for someone to touch an object and either leave no DNA, replace what is there, or add to what is there. She cannot say which one happened; she can only testify to what she found, not to what she didn’t find.
Ralph, didn’t you also say recently you WEREN’T a lawyer? Did you get re-barred, or whatever they call it?
I was under the impression he’s retired.
This trial is a travesty of justice,the Florida AG brought charges to be able to make brownie points when she runs for higher office,plus I bet that prez Boobama has his hand in this too!Be prepared and ready.Keep your powder dry.
Your RANT is a disconnect. Your premise that the AG wins points is troubling. Where do you get info to come up with being a pawn of STUPID thought.
Number 1. This IS NOT a political game! Someone is dead because of bad judgement. For you to make this political ( Be prepared and ready. Keep your powder dry is not “adult think”. It is juvenille, follow a stupid leader speak).
I hope you are not a Concealed Carry Holder. I challenge your judgement.
1. You are minding your own business. You see (feel) someone tracking you. You have a KelTec 9mm semi auto. You have an IWB (clip holster,, not BELT HELD). You are in a struggle from the bottom. You have practiced so many senarios where you are on your back. Head being pummeled on cement. And you STILL have the where with all to grab your weapon,,,from your waist,,, while still being pummeled from on top,,,and actually get a fight ending round from that crap gun. The only way you fire a round from that gun is you MEAN TO! Get a life.
George Zimmerman writes with his left hand…slightly odd that his gun was holstered on his right side. the officer has testified that he took gun/holster as a unit from GZ…said he racked the slide and a round fell out on the ground. In earlier testimony they said the gun was empty with a full magazine=7….the officer would have had to have taken the live round he previously had ejected, and placed it back in the magazine in order for the mag to be full. I think that is unusual for the officer to have done that.
The left-right thing was addressed early on. GZ writes with his left hand, but does virtually everything else with his right hand.
“Full” magazine was an early statement that mainly was said as an opposite to “empty,” and was really only used by the media, who are mostly gun-ignorant. The only time I’ve seen documentation of the rounds actually being counted was on the Gun Lab Forensic Report.
Has anyone tried firing one with one hand while lying on his back at a close target? Heard it has a ‘mule-kick” recoil. My cuz once fired a gun in a similar position – hit himself in the nose and blacked both eyes, Hmmm. Did y’all hear that TM had no DNA from GZ on his hands or clothes according to forensics? Hmmm.
I have fired my PF9 with one hand many times. It does recoil a bit because of its small size and weight. But at that close distance you will hit anything that is in front of the muzzle, which is Martin in this case.
I have owned a PF9 and carried it IWB and also pocket carried in an Uncle Mike’s holster. Both methods allow you to very easily draw to pistol from 3 o’clock or from your front pocket.
Hard to say how Z was able to draw it while Martin was on top, but I would imagine he was able to move and struggle around enough to draw it–obviously since he was able to use it.
OK, I am walking through the neighborhood, minding my own business, and some guy following me in a truck, glaring at me. I get uneasy. He continues to follow, staring at me. He gets on the phone. Is he calling friends to assist in cornering me? Why is this creep following me? I get more uneasy and finally decide to haul ass home. Next thing I know, this guy gets out of his truck to follow me and he has a gun. I judge my chances of escape as poor, and I’m unarmed and scared and panicking – why is this stranger still pursuing me? Know what many people would do in that situation? Hit the guy who’s chasing you down.
When I got my CCW, I was taught that carrying held you to a higher standard of responsibility. Zimmerman followed Martin when told not to, he got out of his truck when he didn’t have to – that isn’t self defense to me; that is harassment of a kid by a grownup who should be thinking more carefully because he’s carrying a firearm. I’m ashamed so many gun owners think it’s OK to shoot someone when you don’t have to. Zimmerman could have avoided this so easily at so many points it’s ridiculous.
did not zimmerman say he forgot he was carrying a gun?
Concealed Carry Holder
When I got my CCW, I was taught that carrying held you to a higher standard of responsibility
did not zimmerman say he forgot he was carrying a gun?
Did he actually say that? If so, the man demonstrated an appalling lack of self-awareness, not to mention a blatant disregard of the “higher standard of responsibility” as another poster mentioned. Only someone with a death-wish would, thinking themselves unarmed, willingly exit the safety of their vehicle to confront ANYONE, be it a creepy guy skulking about or Barney the dinosaur. I simply cannot believe that anyone who has spent the money and taken the time to actually shoot a firearm could possibly just ‘forget’ about carrying that weapon around. Personally, I am ALWAYS acutely aware of the enormous amount of firepower that I have on my hip. Granted, I have a Glock17 (with +2 baseplates on both magazines) that I open carry. Can’t exactly “forget” I’m walking around with that. However, even if you have a friggin’ deuce-deuce derringer, I feel one should KNOW that it’s in your possession. Otherwise, why carry the damned thing at all….”err, I coulda defended my wife and kids, but it just slipped my mind that I had a gun in my pocket”. It’s blatantly obvious to me that Mr Z simply wanted to shoot someone. And he purposefully placed himself in a situation for that one specific purpose. I can speak from experience when I say shooting someone should ALWAYS be a last resort, because it sucks.Almost as bad as being shot at. Almost.
Just by reading most of the comments everyone assumed that Martin attacked Zimmerman, listen to the witness on the 911 call most are saying something about a guy in a white shirt, and multiple people outside with flashlights before the police arrived. Then there is that instant when the guy walked back into the house and locked his door, then the shot rang out. So is this incident a proof that you can kill someone and get away with it as long as you have the right people in it. Listen to witness 6 call to the 911 operator and you will here some stuff not made available to after the trial, there maybe more than one person who should have been in that courtroom.
So after the trial and all the evidence and the witnesses have spoken we can look back at the posts here and see that there are several people that were sadly misinformed and jumping to conclusions based on what they wanted to believe. Wonder how they fell now? I personally had a change of heart when I realized the media was crucifying Zimmerman before the trial.