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When I first saw Congressman Eliot Engel’s picture at the head of his LoHud editorial “Deer don’t wear Kevlar” the very first thing I thought was, Don’t mock him because of that idiotic comb-over; that’s an ad hominem attack and is beneath the People of the Gun. Besides, maybe he just doesn’t own a mirror. But the more of his piece I read, the more I realized; the C-O did not lie. This guy is a moron. And no, that is not an ad hominem attack, it’s a considered opinion based on the fact that he has to be be a moron to think that anyone is going to fall for his line of complete and unadulterated horse hockey . . .

The distinguished Congressman opens by stating:

I was shocked earlier this month when the [ATF] withdrew its proposal to prohibit the sale of 5.56 NATO armor-piercing bullets – so-called “green tip” rounds.

Okay, first of all you don’t say “so-called” and then put the offending word or phrase in quotes, Eliot; it’s either one or the other. Using both is just redundant[1]. Second, they aren’t “so-called ‘green tip’ rounds,” they actually do have green tips on the end. Third, they are not armor-piercing rounds, AP rounds are, in fact, black-tipped. The green-tip’s NATO designation is M855 ball ammunition, while the AP round is designated M995 armor piercing.

M855 was designed to go through the Soviet Army’s steel helmet that was standard issue in the 70s and 80s. The M995 was designed to go through Soviet BRDM-2 APCs. One was about ¼” of mild steel and the other was about ½” to 1” (14 – 30 mm) of armor plate.

And that was just his first sentence.

ATF’s finding that these bullets can be loaded into easily-concealed handguns – and that they pose a grave threat to police – means that they are no longer just tools for hunters.

Okay, the ATF never “found” anything of the sort; 5.56 semi-auto pistols have been available for decades. As I pointed out in an earlier piece, as long as they have that buffer tube there ain’t no way an AR pistol is going to be “easily concealable.” And just because green-tips may be able to penetrate cops’ standard soft body armor when fired from a rifle barrel, that most emphatically does not mean that they can do it when fired from a pistol barrel.

As I pointed out in a different earlier piece, the ATF can fabricate *ahem* I mean “find” any sort of hogwash they want, it doesn’t change facts. In this case the fact of the matter is that cops don’t think that these rounds pose a threat to cops. Specifically James Pasco, the executive director of the Washington office of the Fraternal Order of Police who stated:

“Any ammunition is of concern to police in the wrong hands, but this specific round has historically not posed a law enforcement problem.”[2]

But Engel isn’t just worried about cops:

These bullets are a threat to our police officers and to our military men and women.

Really? Our military men and women? Can someone explain to me just how it’s possible that having these rounds in the hands of law-abiding American sportsmen and women could pose a threat to our military? Is Eliot privy to some plan to use the U.S. military against civilian targets in the United States? Because I think that there are some laws against that sort of thing, not to mention the possibility of such a plan backfiring[3].

But Engel goes on to demonstrate his utter lack of knowledge on the subject:

The only people who should have access to these bullets are law enforcement and the military.

Okay I can see why the military would need AP rounds, which is why the M995 was developed, but, assuming that the M855 is the sort of AP round that Eliot thinks it is, why on Earth would the cops need it? They already have actual AP rounds in their arsenal which most of them are loathe to use since AP makes neat little holes[4] which are not the best thing for stopping a bad guy. That means more rounds must be fired which means more chances of hitting innocent bystanders, especially since, when fired from a rifle, even phony AP rounds like the green-tip have a nasty tendency to go through bodies, vinyl siding, sheet-rock, etc., thus again increasing the chance of hitting innocent bystanders.

There is no conceivable reason for anybody else to need access to a handgun round that can pierce body armor. …

Hunters and law-abiding gun owners have no need for a compact, semi-automatic firearm with ammunition that punches through body armor. Deer don’t wear Kevlar.

Deer may not wear Kevlar, but deer and larger game animals do have big bones which may need to be penetrated for a clean, humane kill, which is completely irrelevant since the Second Amendment is not about HUNTING. And while deer may not wear Kevlar, goblins (of whatever stripe of law or lawlessness) kicking in your door at 2AM might just be wearing Kevlar. Or some nut-job shooting up a movie theater[5] or hosing an immigrant community center.

Yet over and over again, we hear the gun industry lobby arguing to ensure that civilians have access to cop-killing bullets.

I have to wonder if Eliot is a complete and utter moron No matter how many times you repeat the lie, El, it remains a lie. See above about how “this specific round has historically not posed a law enforcement problem.[6] But Eliot is not done repeating his lies:

The “green tip,” frequently used in the AR-15 assault rifle, has been included under this “sporting purposes” exemption. But new technology has led to compact, easily-concealed short guns that can fire these rounds at police officers who won’t be able to see the weapons coming.

At least he didn’t say so-called “green-tip” this time. But he does repeat the lie about the AR pistol being a new development, and the lie about it being compact, short and easily-concealed.

Eliot finishes up with news that he is going to . . . well, I’ll let him explain:

So I have introduced a bill in the House that will enact into law the changes ATF proposed. …

This legislation is not stopping hunters from continuing to participate in legal sporting activities. What it does is make the rational point that “green tips” are not necessary for those purposes. …

Which is yet another lie. What his legislation will do is ensure that rimfire .22 ammo with a bullet weight of 40 grains or less is, by definition, “sporting purpose ammunition” while leaving it up to the sole discretion of the Attorney General to decide if any other such ammunition (not just green-tip) is “primarily intended to be used for sporting purposes.”

So, ignorant moron or despicable bottom-feeding sleaze ball of a lying politician; you make the call.


[1] And yes I have fallen prey to this error myself in the past, then I learned better.

[2] From the Washington Examiner piece Police say Obama bullet ban isn’t needed, AR-15 round isn’t a threat

[3] Think about it for a minute; if El is worried about us gun-owners using this ammo against the military then it necessarily means that someone is using the military against us, and as Mike Vanderboegh, David Codrea and any number of other gun-people have pointed out, just whose kids do you think make up the military? The sons and daughters of freedom hating statist Leftist antis or the “rabble” they are so desperate to disarm?

[4] Relatively speaking, as compared to hollow-points.

[5] The Aurora shooter was initially (and erroneously) reported to have worn body armor. The Binghamton NY shooter actually was wearing body armor.

[6] From the Washington Examiner piece Police say Obama bullet ban isn’t needed, AR-15 round isn’t a threat

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  1. Eliot Engel is not a moron. He is, however, a lying, insufferable scvmbag of the lowest order. And that’s not an ad hominem attack, that’s a fact.

  2. I happen to own a 5.56 “handgun”. I would have to have a giant trench coat and a sling to hide it. There’s nothing easy to conceal about it. It’s about as concealable as a full size AR-15 would be under a trench coat.
    In fact, I’m not sure why I even built it except for the fact I had never built one before and Obama doesn’t want me to.

    • Heizer Defense Pocket AR Break Action Single Shot Pistol .223 Remington is in production and is very small. Still not a reason to ban ammo.

      • Yeah, I suspect that thing actually is a single shot, too! Do we know anyone who has fired one twice?

  3. When someone bases their whole argument upon a lie not a single word of logic will be found in their argument.

    We know M855 is not an armor piercing round, and most of us know it’s not the baby killer heat seeking round he thinks it is. Yet instead of spending the time to research all he did was accept the flawed (incorrect) statement that the ATF released.

  4. “These bullets are a threat to our police officers and to our military men and women.”

    OMG! I have a box of green tip in the other room! What should I do! How should I dispose of the this danger to myself! Maybe I’ll get rid of them all into a berm at the range so I can keep myself safe from them.

  5. I’m sorry to say that I’m unsubscribing to this web site, I enjoy a lot of the stuff you send out and while I know you need to pay for this site I for one can’t take the auto ads that pop up and interrupt my train of thoughts as I read, it’s not an easy decision but one I’ve given thought to for a while now, that and all the other people who are commenting on the same issues seem to be ignored, so…. see ya!

      • Exactly. What ads?

        ^ Don’t kill me, I just don’t leave attack vectors open. Malicious ads being one of the most prevalent in recent times. 😀

        – AdBlock Edge (NOT regular Adblock)
        – Ghostery (and make sure to disable the voluntary data collecting contained within)
        – NoScripts
        – Disconnect
        – BetterPrivacy (gets rid of those pesky persistent LSO cookies, which burrow through your system. Google, FB, MSN, Twitter, etc use them)
        – Self-Destructing Cookies
        – Browser settings: Block all Third Party Cookies by default

        Then get yourself a host file with a top rated AV, & your pretty much set for most of what the web will throw at you.

        On topic: NY voters need to look to removing this guy post haste… And that comb over, I didn’t even think anyone did that anymore. Tis unfortunate he didn’t get the memo. I, I have no words for that.

    • We’re working on eliminating them. Again. Still. Come back and see us sometime.

      • Robert, check the main TTAG email pls. I sent you one earlier concerning something strange with the forum.

      • Hi Robert, I assumed the auto ads were part of your site, I don’t mind ads I just hate when it suddenly screams out and scars the shit out of me lol, If you’re trying to stop them then I will stick around, it’s usually the one with the stupid dog hanging out the truck window…

    • I third this. I had to do this to keep the auto ad from waking me up if I left TTAG up.

    • Tripwire, You just need to do a bit of research and/or download and try a few programs like Adblocker to see what works for you. I use Malwarebytes, the paid version, and I get very few, if any, ads when I am on this site. Bonus is that Malwarebytes is also an excellent tool for finding and eliminating viruses as well as stopping them before they are installed on my computer. I used the free version for several years to supplement another program until I realized that Malwarebytes was finding problems the others did not find. And no, I am not affiliated with this company in any way. Just really like their software.

    • What ads? I don’t get anything popping up when I read here. You must be doing something wrong, or at least not doing something right.

    • Along with ravens list I would add HTTPS Everywhere and make sure you have a good firewall like Comodo. All of these are free down loads. I connect thru FB do not use Ad Blocker an never even see the pop ups. YMMV

  6. I like the Groucho Marx greasepaint mustache.

    His argument is the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever hoid.

  7. Hes not an idiot. A moron maybe. Just another lying uninformed politician using every ill conceived nonsensical sentence ever written to describe nothing important. A bullet that’s no threat to anyone when used by law abiding folks.
    And since criminals who as a rule don’t obey laws in general and aren’t a threat using M855s hes just repeating what he thinks are facts, or has been told are.
    What a maroon this guy is.

  8. Eliot Lance Engel is the U.S. Representative for New York’s 16th congressional district. He is a member of the Democratic Party. His new district, District 16, contains parts of the Bronx and Westchester County.
    You figure it out.

    • Thanks. I was just about to post that.

      There are several congress critters who are too idiotic or senile to legislate. Sheila Jackson Lee and Hank Johnson come immediately to mind. This creature fits the bill too.

  9. Just another Progressive (socialist, communist, fascist, totalitarian, etc.) pushing propaganda. He knows what he says is a lie. The 2nd amendment is an obstacle to his wish to dominate the American people, and he is going to use whatever means to destroy our rights. Today, he is using propaganda. We should be worried about what he will do once he realizes We The People will not comply.

  10. I got this dip in trade for Nita Lowey in the redistricting. Trust me, in person is more unimpressive than described here.

  11. If I know the local deer population has purchased body armor I upgun from a 243 Winchester to the old reliable 30-06.

    • I don’t worry about the deer having body armor. It’s when they learn to use your .30-06….

      • Actually I had an AR10 chambered in 300 WSM, pulled some old M2AP 3006 bullets and loaded them up in 300 WSM, about 3200 fps and the range is spectacular…

  12. I like the article, and while I am loath to say that I loathe the misuse of loath and loathe, I will.

  13. Congressman Eliot Engel’s article is such a PERFECT collection of lies and deception — I think it should be widely circulated as a corrected version. The list of errors and irrational concepts is particularly dense.

    People OUTSIDE of this small circle here need to be informed. Unlike so many things — this is not hard to explain: An AR-15 “pistol” is NOT a handgun, the round is NOT AP and has been in common use for decades — and a deer hunter with a 30.06 or a 12ga could be quite a menace to police with only lead to shoot. Oh wait — is he also for banning lead ammo?

  14. I’m tired of this debate about “sporting purpose” or “hunting” your 2A right goes way beyond that! That’s just the politicians way of changing the narrative to brainwash the masses into thinking everything gun related needs to have a legitimate sporting purpose….

  15. I think this is barely worth the time to argue about, but I disagree about using “so-called” with quotes, because “so-called” means something other than quote marks. “So-called” is generally used to indicate that the author disagrees that they are called such.

    “green tip” rounds: The rounds are called “green tip”
    so-called green tip rounds: The rounds are incorrectly called “green tip” or “green tip rounds”
    so-called “green tip” rounds: The rounds are incorrectly called “green tip”. This is the most precise phrase. It specifies in the quotation marks exactly what the term is, and “so-called” adds the additional meaning that the author considers the appropriateness of the term dubious. Both “so-called” and the quotation marks add meaning when used together. If you take one out, you lose some information in the sentence. Therefore using them together in this phrase is not redundant.

  16. Sheetrock is a brand name for one manufacturer’s drywall product. It has come into common use as a generic term, kind of like Kleenex, but it isn’t. Either use the name “Sheetrock” (capitalized with no hyphen) or “drywall”.

  17. Firstly, no left-wing pol has ever given a rodents posterior about the safety of our military. Secondly, they don’t care much about the safety of our police either, unless said police are dues paying union members.

    So the whole Kevlar body armor sporting purposes hogwash is just a smoke screen for their real concern: rounds that can defeat a hardened limousine.

  18. I don’t care what deer wear. They’re forking tasty, and shooting them with surplus ammo is a great way to reduce,reuse, recycle.

    Congress is full of Isralien dual-citizen scum.

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