Josh Wayner’s taken it upon himself to challenge what everyone “knows” as far as barrel length, velocity and accuracy are concerned. According to his results, the conventional wisdom ain’t all that wise when it comes to longer-barreled ballistics. The only question then is, if you buy in and go with a short barrel, can you stand the noise?
Abstract: This is an independent scientific study that has been conducted in western Michigan. This study addresses the misunderstanding of the concepts related to barrel length, muzzle velocity, and accuracy in a rifle . . .
Elements of the Study: This study was conducted with a set of standards that do not necessarily correspond to all manner of firearms. The combination of weapon and ammunition used for this study was carefully determined and analyzed for the best results. This study was conducted with what the author and fellow researchers determined to be the most precise materials and methods available gathered from expert input and other existing studies.
The platform used for this is a Shilen match barrel which began at 26 inches in length and ended at 13.5 inches. The chamber is of standard SAAMI specification in .308 Winchester and the barrel features a 1:10 right hand twist. The ammunition used for this test is of several types, all of which are of corresponding lot numbers. At each range, handloads were used to seek out advantages given the barrel length by modifying the bullet and powder. This data is included gratis and represents the abilities of the weapon system when tuned ammunition is available.
For this test, the barrel was attached to a Savage short action target receiver in a Scally Hill Systems MK4 Mod7 folding chassis. This test measured all three variables at the same time in the most similar conditions available. Testing was conducted at Southkent Sportsman’s Club in Dorr, Michigan and Chick-Owa Sportsman’s Club in Zeeland, Michigan. Firing was conducted at a distance minimum of 100 yards and a maximum of 540 yards. Informal ‘field’ shooting was conducted on private land at safe targets out to a distance of 900 yards, accurately measured by satellite using Google Earth.
Ambient conditions were on average 70-75 degrees Fahrenheit with 40-50% humidity at an elevation average of 670 feet. Shooting was conducted with a 16x SWFA SS optic, a piece well noted for its durability and ruggedness. Velocities were obtained using a chronograph and extrapolation of shooting results. Group size was measured with a micrometer. Five shot groups were used to measure accuracy. Firing was conducted on standard IPSC silhouette targets at all ranges.
This study does not aim to look at terminal effects, rates of drop and drift, combat effectiveness, ethical viewpoints, or legal/political issues.
Findings:
This section is included here as a semi-abstract to address commonly held beliefs regarding barrel length, muzzle velocity, and accuracy. These results are backed by the data collected below.
Explaining Barrel Length:
Belief: a long barrel is required for accuracy when shooting at long distance.
Fact: In no part of our testing was barrel length a determining factor in accuracy. At a distance of 100-540 yards, there was no discernible difference in accuracy between various barrel lengths. This performance translated over to unknown distance shooting with all barrel lengths at ranges out to 900 yards. At no point in the testing was a short barrel a hindrance once marksmanship fundamentals were observed and proper flight data was applied.
Explaining Velocity:
Belief: Now that we know that accuracy is pretty much the same, short barreled rifles lose too much velocity be effective at long ranges.
Fact: This is a double-edged sword. The 13.5-inch length could propel a 168 grain Hornady TAP round at an average velocity of 2390 fps, which is hardly slow. That is only a decrease of around 315 fps from the 26 inch length (25.2 fps/in), and vindicates many researchers who pioneered velocity discussions. There was no noticeable critical difference in accuracy at any range. There is a downside to longer ranges and reduced velocities, that being increased susceptibility to wind as range increases. Increased drift is not the end of the world, though, and if measured properly, can be overcome with ease.
What is more is the differences in velocity across loads and barrel lengths. The issue with barrel length and velocity was also interesting in that, across all bullet weights, the extreme variation is only 31% (110 VMAX @3202 and 208 AMAX @2215). In the most accurate load, the 168gr HPBT handload, the velocity difference between longest and shortest was only slightly more than 15%. The round with the least variation between barrel lengths was the 175gr Federal Gold Medal Match with slightly less than 8% variation.
Explaining Accuracy in a practical sense:
Belief: “The time I put five shots into a cloverleaf is the time I did everything right.”
Fact: This is the greatest misunderstanding in the world of accuracy and shooting. In our testing, no matter the ammunition used, the weapon showed that there was a natural fluctuation in regard to group size and point of impact. This has been determined by other studies as well, even those using ‘rail guns’ and heavy benchrest rifles. Accuracy, at least in our testing, was determined to be more akin to a ‘cone’ than a grid in that the accuracy of the rifle had an average maximum radial spread of .765 MOA over all barrel lengths.
In layman’s terms, this means that the barrel could fire an indefinite number of rounds into a circle with an average diameter of 1.53 MOA, which is not all that impressive. However, it must be understood that accuracy does not work like traditional manuals dictate. As an example, a man takes his new rifle to the range. He sets up his targets and fires several five shot groups. His groups are respectable by most standards, with most clustering at around .75 MOA. He sets his zero and continues to fire.
Here is the important part: he fires another group and gets a ‘flier’ one MOA low and left. He discards it and continues, discarding all the fliers he gets. Now it gets hard for him to figure out. He shoots five shots and notices that he gets a .25 MOA group, but .8 MOA low and .45 MOA right. This is a great group, and he scratches his head and adjusts his scope to it. He shoots again, but prints a wide group measuring 1.2 MOA across, but now shifted off his zero. He assumes that he has run his luck out, packs up, and goes home.
What has happened here has happened to many people. What our friend did not realize was that his gun was never zeroed at all. The tight cluster he got was not the time he did it right, it was a statistical possibility that comes from firing. In reality, the man had a rifle that was not shooting .75 MOA, but rather he was printing groups and ignoring his most important ally, his fliers. These are critical to rifle accuracy and are not mistakes.
Statistically speaking, the rifle he has may actually fire a maximum group size of 2 MOA at 100 yards, which sounds terrible, but really isn’t. The vast majority of his rounds will probably impact at a radius of around .5 MOA of his true zero, or even less if he has a good combination. What he did not understand was that there is nothing wrong with a rifle that may throw a round out even 1 MOA or more, it’s all within the statistical level of accuracy that the rifle is capable of.
The results of this study were very telling. Overall, as demonstrated in the accuracy charts, the shortest barrel length provided the most consistent accuracy across the board and the longest length proved to be the least accurate with the same loads. The data also shows that the so called “MOA” a rifle can shoot changes with distance. The groups at 100 yards show very good, often benchrest grade accuracy, and then at extended ranges, they show a natural increase in group size. Across the board, all the loads tested across all barrel lengths showed this. Across all loads and lengths, the average at 900yds was .765 radial MOA or 1.53MOA. Compare this to the 100yd average of .206 radial MOA or 0.413MOA. That’s right: the average across all lengths and loads yields sub half-MOA at 100yds and just over 1.5MOA at 900yds.
Conclusions:
This test obliterated what was previously thought to be fact. Not only was it determined that short barreled rifles are easily as accurate a those with long barrels, but we also discovered what we see as a key to viewing accuracy in a practical sense. In an age of misinformation, hard fact can be hard to come by. The internet is full of armchair know-it-alls and trolls a plenty, but for the most part, these can be ignored. Mental preconceptions of the researched concepts are still deeply entrenched in a more or less Napoleonic era of the theory of arms. Most of what is commonly argued about small arms is false and based on opinion. A quick look online reveals hundreds of arguments on topics like 9mm vs. 40 S&W vs. 45ACP or AR-15 vs. AK-47, none of which are based on fact or on the need of the individual in their realistic circumstances.
If anything is to be learned from bullet selection, it is that match quality bullets have a distinct edge in accuracy over military and hunting bullets. The match bullets tested produced significantly greater accuracy than their military or hunting-type counterparts.
This study is not aimed at the promotion of using any particular barrel length, brand of bullet or load. The reader must look at their own situation and determine what the most valuable features are in a rifle.
Josh Wayner is a senior at Grand Valley State University studying Applied Research Science in the Interdisciplinary Studies Major. He has been a competitive shooter for nearly ten years and has eleven CMP medals from Camp Perry. Josh is also the owner of Scally Hill Systems and is constantly developing and testing new things. Long range shooting has been his passion for many years and he continues to push the envelope in modern rifle design.
![[SHOT 2026] Sim-X Ammunition: Ultra-High Velocity, Low Weight](https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/wp-content/uploads/2026/01/20260119_095511.jpg)
Complete with a pistol grip?! OMG’s!!!!!
The bear looked more frightened than the two elderly morons.
“An analysis by the Violence Policy Center found that more than 700 Romanian AK-47 variant rifles were identified in 134 federal gun trafficking prosecutions involving illegal smuggling from the United States to Mexico and other Latin American countries.”
….wait….
weren’t those the guns the ATF ran across the border?….
Did NJ Senate pass the bill over the weekend? I thought it was only the Assembly that had passed it, at least as of last Friday.
I don’t see the problem with alcohol. Even the Fort Bliss Rod and Gun club has a bar. With the way the military is with booze and guns it is amazing that it is allowed. If I remember, if you’ve had a drink you can’t go back out to the line. You can have a drink after you are done shooting, or just drink a whole bunch and not shoot at all.
Matt does his videos for science. It will really help me out in the future knowing that 5.56 goes clear through a bottle of honey. I’m not sure what it will help me with, but I am sure I will figure it out.
i have one maybe 800 rounds in her . would trade or sell call me 201.835.4889
Very impressive work. I would propose a hypothesis that barrel harmonics from a longer barrel introduce an instability to the overall flight path that has an increased effect on point of impact once projectile speed drops over extended range. (Basically the barrel is “whipping” the round a bit.) Shorter barrel lengths do not have this issue due to much better stiffness.
Proposed experiment… Setup a high speed optical micrometer to track center line of the barrel tip during the firing process in X and Y axes normal to the bore.
This has been validated by a few suppressor manufacturers. Hanging a can on the end of a gun seems to quell barrel harmonics and actually increase accuracy.
They might also reduce the impact of muzzle blast turbulence on the projectile. Without tracking the barrel, it’s hard to differentiate the two effects.
If the bullet is well above trans-sonic speeds, how can flow turbulence in its wake possibly affect the bullet?
I haven’t been shooting rifles (much) for long, but I’ve noticed with my .308 Rem. VTR that when you touch your muffs to the buttstock after firing you can hear the barrel humming like a tuning fork for 15 or 20 seconds. It might be more pronounced since it has a non floating barrel and a synthetic stock, but I’m sure all rifles do this. My theory is that when the bullet jumps through the leade it slams into the rifling and sends shock waves down the barrel ahead of the bullet. In order for the waves to resonate the barrel must flex. This doesn’t necessarily adversely effect accuracy – if the bullets leave the barrel at the same velocity they should all be timed with the resonance the same. They may shift slightly to the left or right or up or down, but they should all shift the same way. But switching loads could move the point of impact in unpredictable ways like left or right. I would think that as barrels get longer they need to get thicker to control the flex.
It would be interesting to read (hint TTAG) a comprehensive article about the physics of a rifle shot.
Dude, you need to ditch that crappy soft Remington stock and get something free floated. Vibrating for 30 seconds like a tuning fork is not normal.
“In an age of misinformation, hard fact can be hard to come by. The internet is full of armchair know-it-alls and trolls a plenty, but for the most part, these can be ignored.”
Haha, no kidding. Just look at these comments!
Interesting study but completely agree with with the harmonics element. To me, if the loads were not tuned to the barrel length, then the only usable data is in the subsequent velocity. The “accuracy ” data means very little to nothing…am I wrong?
…other than harmonics have a diminishing effect as the barrel gets shorter.
How could they test a 13″ barrel in a state that does not allow sbr?
Very carefully?
3″ permanently attached muzzle device?
Long flash hider, perhaps?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Firearms_License
hope this helps.
Tom
Michigan State law bans SBR’s with no provision for licensing. I don’t think a FFL changes that.
I’m voting LEO (‘cuz they’re better than us, dontcha know) or long flash hider.
It’s pinned and welded
Great piece of work, conducted with scientific precision and accuracy. Would have appreciated some footnotes to track down some of the other research quoted.
I wonder how the Grand Valley State admin is going to respond to this work.
I don’t know how Interdisciplinary Studies handles it, but the engineering program didn’t much care WHAT the project involved….
While I was taking an industrial controls class one group of students built an automated trap thrower which was, at the time, the only trap thrower on the market with a TRULY random pattern of throw.
Another group of students built a project with several metallic silhouettes with a boatload of sensors attached. The idea being they could capture impact velocity, impact energy, etc.
Lets face it, generally speaking firearms research is cool. It’s bright, flashy, and impressive when presented during University functions. And I know GVSU LOVES flashy student presentations.
Interesting
It would be nice if Scally Hill Systems had a functional website.
Great article. This is the type of stuff I love to read.
As a researcher you should be aware that these graphs are not meaningful without error bars. For example, what is the maximum error in the powder charge for these cartridges? What are the dimensional tolerances of the bullets? To what degree is the barrel crown flat?
My intent is not to disparage your work, but point out that drawing conclusions from this type of study is a bit disingenuous because there are far too many issues impacting accuracy and even muzzle velocity to provide a reasonably accurate description of estimated error. Without that your data cannot be interpreted properly. For example, if your estimated accuracy error is as little as 0.3 MOA, almost all of your accuracy data points must be interpreted as being identical.
These are the reasons why there is “conventional wisdom”; there are too many factors involved just within the cartridge itself, let alone the rifle, to provide a good-faith estimate of error, and as a result accurate interpretation of the data becomes impossible.
This is correct.
Another “experiment” ignoring the majority of the variables involved and not taking error into account. This data says very little, but when coupled with technical sounding language and graphs the average guy thinks he is looking at good scientific evidence.
This sort of thing happens rather frequently on this site, unfortunately (and everywhere else on the internet…).
I do want to point out that there IS a point to be made here, which is that a longer barrel does not inherently mean greater accuracy. This can be stated without an error estimation. It is also something that some manufacturers have begun to realize, as some sniper systems have been developed using relatively shorter barrels more comparable to carbines.
Can we really conclude that? The comment above about the experiment lacking any error or standard deviation information is a good one. If the error bars are large, then it is entirely possible that longer barrels are still more accurate. It could also mean that shorter barrels are more accurate. Without understanding the error, we can’t tell which is true. It’s like the author pointed out with regard to shooters who get one tight group, adjust their zero, then think their rifle is sighted in. We can’t look at the data and tell if we were in the middle of the statistically possible range, or way out on the fringe. We haven’t been given enough info to judge.
“Longer barrels are more accurate” only applies when using iron sights where the longer barrel allows a longer sight radius which lets the shooter sight the rifle more accurately. Scopes provide the same sighting ability regardless of barrel length.
My second comment is “longer barrel does not INHERENTLY mean greater accuracy”. That is not saying that that they are definitely NOT more accurate, just that there is no evidence to suggest that there is something specific to the length of the barrel that equates 1:1 to better accuracy. There is a difference.
Why don’t we have a conversation about efficiency? IMHO, what you want is a barrel that is long enough to impart as much of the energy in the powder into the projectile as possible, and a projectile that will dump as much of that energy as possible into the target.
Not entirely true. The data is simply incomplete. However, it does give reason to question the classic longer barrel / more accurate gun myth.
What it suggests to me is that a longer barrel length will result in greater velocity, up to a point, but that the longer barrel is more susceptible to change through heat distortion when fired for more than three shots, thereby resulting in worse accuracy. Interesting to note as well that in most charts, the optimal length for overall repeatable accuracy at range was 18″.
It is standard practice to show the error and/or standard devation of the data shown in a study. That is how you do good science with proper statistics. Kinda the short of it.
I would think this sort of information could be added per a request from the reader. Well, instead of bewitching the guy and calling his research meaningless and all …
Point being,
Replicate it, or refute it.
Without that, what are you doing, but being argumentative? I agree, more precision to the study could be done, but he made good effort. Someone should extend it with their own research then.
Nice work to the guy that cut down the barrel and went through the trouble to do the research.
Now, like I said,
Those that insinuate the evidence is not there.
Go on, refute it.
or replicate it, give the guy some props, and extend it in his honor, LOL
Thanks to the guy that put in the work.
Kyle,
this experiment was not designed to count every single powder kernel the cartridge case. off the shelf components and cartridges were used. the tolerances of M80 ball are obviously not the same as federal gold medal match. the reason that error was not factored in was that we were not testing over 100 barrels and 100,000 rounds of ammunition. we counted the flyers. Every single one. the displayed velocities and accuracy numbers are averages, which is clearly written. plus, as a student of the gun, you should understand that the bullet is the truth and there is no such thing as error, just more data.
Thanks Kyle. You are spot on. I have shot, at a quick estimate, over 2 million rounds in my lifetime. It has been my experience that I have been more satisfied with the accuracy of a Barrel OVER medium length for the platform. I have found practical experience in real world conditions to be more accurate a determiner than scientific studies which are all flawed and need to have an error factor figured in. Reloading a good number of rounds myself, I can say that matching bullet acceleration inside the barrel to desired velocity and then exiting the barrel immediately seems to give best results in my experience. I will accept all the other points about harmonics and bullet diameter variations, but all these issues will need to be prioritized. In my estimation, behind proper match of barrel length and bullet acceleration. I don’t think I need to go into how this effects the other things like harmonics and such. Kyle, glad to know there are some actual good brains left!
Mmmmmm, love me some scientificalness in the morning. Nice work.
As a scientific point, it’s a firearm. Weapons are used (past tense) on people, firearms are used on paper.
Using a longsword to slice melons does not mean it is not a weapon.
I’ve never held the belief that a longer barrel makes the GUN more accurate. A longer barrel does give you a flatter trajectory due to higher velocities, which tends to make the SHOOTER more accurate.
Of course the order of barrel length testing was from 26″ – 13″… so… I’m sure the shooter didn’t get better with the platform over all the rounds down range. And I’m sure the breaking in of the 13″ of rifling that was never cut down had nothing to do with the conclusions. And I’m sure the crowing for each barrel cut down was confirmed to have the exact some profile… And I’m sure there are about a dozen other variables that weren’t accounted for in this testing.
Not discrediting this in the least – it’s good data and certainly supports the notion that a shorter barrel is more accurate… but a publishable paper on the subject it is not.
With a hand-lapped match barrel like the Shilen used in the test, ‘breaking in’ is just wasting the accuracy potential of the rifle. Breaking in barrels and barrel settling is something done for factory barrels with rough bores. Polished barrels start out the most accurate they will ever be, and degrade in accuracy for every shot after that (very slowly) due to wear and loss of that polish. Or at least that is what top barrel makers say.
And counter point to him ‘getting better with the system’, fatigue has a bigger impact on the shooter than practice with the gun, if the shooter is already competent.
Very excellent work. This is off topic, but isn’t MOA technically a measure of precision and not accuracy? Yes, I know accuracy is the word that is commonly used in these types of tests and everyone knows what is being measured…
You are correct. Accuracy refers to whether a given shot is on target. Precision is whether a collection of shots is consistent.
I prefer repeatability over precision. Precision also implies the degree of error in your ability to take measurements.
Good reading. I’d also love to see more work up in regards to barrel harmonics. I’m also curious on the barrel crown question.
Machine rest?
Tom,
you will never guess what I am up to for my next article… Oh wait…
THIS is what I would like to see in our future. Careful research with all the data presented so that it is open to reasoned peer review, analysis, and application.
Not that it’ll change the mind of “experts” like Jim Carmichael et al. His experience over time requires us to listen, but not be overawed and think he really is omniscient.
Thank you, thank you, thank you for your work and setting the bar.
Good to see an article that takes a closer look at “what everyone knows”.
From a purely non-rigorous, personal anecdote standpoint, I have found that a short, heavy profile barrel (18″, DPMS LR308B) tends to maintain accuracy over long shooting sessions, even when the barrel heats up quite a bit. It would be interesting to test this against longer barrels of different thicknesses, with and without flutes, firing enough rounds to reach a specific barrel temperature at the muzzle. As soon as I receive my $5 million grant from the gummint, I shall begin the buying frenzy (oops, cross that out) and testing.
I’d like to see a comparison of downrange velocity for each barrel length and at what distance they hit the transonic region.
The upward trend in group size with distance makes me wonder about wind while the data were being collected.
I am a competitive shooter as well for 10+ years. I have been a faithful reader, until its demise, of Precision Shooter Magazine and they had done a lot of work on the subject. Things I find lacking in this study. Cutting a barrel down inches changes it to a new barrel essentially. The crown rifling is now different. Also changing the load/bullet every time you change the barrel changes another variable that would actually prove their thereom wrong. They should have maintained the same load across all barrel lengths to maintain consistency. The Velocity of 2300 from 2600 is huge for a distance shooter. Especially when the distance shooters are trying to be 3000 fps for maintaining supersonic velocities into the target. The drift factor and wind was not a concern for the test but it is a huge concern when you are trying to hit your target. A longer barrel does give an accuracy advantage when maintaining a long distance load accross all barrel lengths because of velocity or the ability to increase pressure on the bullet before exiting the barrel. If barrel length did not matter then a 2.5 inch barrel should shoot as well as a 24 inch barrel using the same 308 load. There is a sweet spot barrel length for loads, you don’t need a 35 inch barrel for a 6 mm round but you need more than 18 inches to shoot 1000 yards with a 6.5×284.
All of the loads were tested with each barrel length….
I didn’t get that impression from the statement… “handloads were used to seek out advantages given the barrel length by modifying the bullet and powder. This data is included gratis and represents the abilities of the weapon system when tuned ammunition is available.”
Powder charges and bullets should have been loaded and optimized for the long barrel and then maintained as such to see if there was an atributable change in accuracy as you chopped the barrel. This is to maintain a constant as you examine the variable. You put too many variables in motion and you will get spurious outcomes. You would be surprised what a lot change in the same powder or primer change does to my scores at competition. Benchrest is a lot about scientific methods where you establish a load by only changing one variable at a time.
You don’t want the handloads to be the same: the whole point of handloading is to tune the load to the barrel’s natural harmonics, which should change with barrel length.
I want to know how the handloads were developed? Optimum Charge Weight (OCW) method? Audette ladder test? Quickload? SWAG?
Nice work….
Entertaining reading. Many valid responses. Stimulating Conversation.
In the end, I will simply, select a rifle that physically fits within the constraints of my operating parameters, next I will “test” my rifle of choice with various “available” ammunition until the most “proficient” combination is discovered, then I will tune my rifle to its optimum “precision” using aforementioned “proficient” ammunition, and finally, I will practice with it until I become “accurate” with the resulting combination.
As long as I am confident that I can reliably eliminate the intended target, at the specific distances that the rifle will be utilized, the rifle is effective. Everything else is just for show and tell. 😀
Thought I had zeroed my 7mm08 bolt action w 18″ barrel until i read this. i don’t think my rifle is grouping well at 100 yards but barrel began clean and now has 20 rounds through it. Tried two different types of bullets in 120 and 140 grains, from different manufacturers but not sure what to think now. I had fliers at 100 yards with both boxes, which opened my groups up to 4″. Not using match grade ammo and feel the trigger is a little heavy but does this seem too big? Rifle is a ruger american compact, the fore end is not perfectly square to the barrel and ruger says they will not take back for servicing unless it is affecting accuracy. What say you?
Coooooooooooooooooooooooool. This jives with my (non-shooter, haha) intuition about physics and guns.
Now we just need good replication. :p
Some thoughts:
1. It has been known among some gun makers for years that shorter, stiffer barrels are more consistently accurate. Some of the more accurate .308/7.62 bolt guns I know of have 18 or 20″ barrels.
2. Barrel length affects velocity more when you tune the load for the barrel length. As you lengthen your barrel, you can change your load to use slower powders. Using a slow powder with a short barrel simply results in a huge muzzle bloom. Using too fast of a powder in a long barrel can result in barrel failures. Using a slow powder in a long barrel, now you can start to see some results.
Generally speaking, if you use the right load modeling s/w, you can develop loads with easily (or formerly easily) available powders to produce complete combustion of the powder charge about an inch (or a bit more) behind the muzzle. This is about where you want it, regardless of how long the rifle barrel is.
3. Match bullets, as you found, really are better. Especially the all-copper bullets. They’re more concentric, better balanced, more uniform in weight and their lower Bc’s mean that they’re affected by wind less than bullets with lower Bc’s.
4. Where barrel length does affect your accuracy is when the sight radius depends on the barrel length. Using an optical sight (a scope) eliminates this variable. If you had aperture sights (or even buckhorn sights) on the barrel/receiver, you’d start to see the errors add up as your barrel length (and therefore your sight radius) decreased. One of the things that led to the accuracy of Sharps rifles in the 19th century wasn’t that the barrels were much better than (eg) Winchester lever guns, or the bullets, loads or powder was better in the Sharps than in a (eg) Winchester. It was that the Sharps had a much longer sight radius and better sights.
5. You didn’t mention how the barrel was re-crowned every time some length was taken off. I’d be interested in knowing the uniformity of the crowning process.
6. Groups were measured with a micrometer? That seems a bit excessive – and difficult. I think the groups were probably measured with a set of calipers.
Sorry, but this is like confirming that the sky is blue.
Short barrels are more accurate than longer barrels, in the abstract. This is because there is less harmonic distortion in the barrel.
Longer barrels, especially with iron sights, are easier to shoot. Not only is the sight picture extended, it has a higher velocity, which cuts down on time to target, and less time for the wind to affect the bullets flight path, less lead needed for moving targets, and distance judging is not as important.
At long ranges, minor differences in velocity produce huge differences in drop.
Sure, I could strap down a 13″ barrel, find out exactly where the bullet will land, move my target there, and the rounds will produce a nice grouping, a better grouping than a 26″ barrel, but in the real World, where I don’t know the exact distance, that extra velocity is a huge factor in hitting what you are aiming for.
Hummm, I’m old fashioned I guess, as well as old. I take my ’06 and zero it to hit 2″ high at 100 yards via my Leupold scope. I then go deer hunting and shoot at deer any where from 40 yards to 200 yards. All my deer are one shot kills. Scientific enough for me.
Saw an article a few years ago around the time of Beslan that basically said there were three units that could handle a Beslan-style situation: Delta, Seal Team Six and FBI’s HRT. Your average SWAT unit can get into a building and kill everyone inside in nothing flat, but it’s the not-killing of the hostages that is the problem. You can read manuals all day long but just because you have matchy-matchy plate carriers and really nice tactical pants does not make you an operator on the level of people who fire thousands of rounds of ammo a month in live-fire drills. The other observation of the exercise is that if we have ONE Beslan-style incident then there’s a chance to get one of those teams on the scene, but if there are six at the same time, people are going to have to make do. This means a lot of small coffins.
A mall with 10-20 armed citizens when the balloon goes up is better than nothing, absolutely. But realistically, people with shoulder arms have a tremendous advantage over people with packable pistols, particularly the kinds of guns most people likely carry in no-carry places (e.g., the most concealable ones). The kind of handgun you have on you for “better this than nothing” situations is probably not the one you want to clear a mall, or even a path through a mall, with. What do I want in terms of a handgun if something like that happens? A 9mm Glock 34 with a chest rig full of 33-round mags is my best initial thought, but there probably aren’t a lot of us that carry long-slide Glocks as CCW weapons, much less a brace of 33-rounders for backups.
The optimal situation is if a T breaks cover with their back to you, starts shooting and graciously fails to check-6 while you draw and punch their brainstem from 10 feet or less. Any other situation places a handgun user at a severe and possibly fatal disadvantage. If they’re between your family and an exit you have no choice but to engage, but otherwise your best bet is probably to just get out with whoever you can get to go while you cover.
A Westgate-style attack in the US seems to sadly be more a matter of time than a hypothetical. It will be harder in free states, for sure — but the likelihood of someone trying seems to be very high. If nothing else, other avenues to terrorist events have been made harder targets. Planes are out. Hard to get fertilizer now, and anthrax is 2002. As Bruce Scheiner says, if you give terrorists a hard way and an easy way, they’ll take the easy way. Malls are much easier than banks, police stations and government installations. Hardening up other targets just increases the likelihood that you’ll get hit where your systems aren’t hardened.
Libtards (democrats) favor increased power by the state. Blacks vote over 90% democrat. Democrats have been molding blacks into the victim/welfare/entitlement position that they need for votes (power).
Useful idiots. Culture of death. The state IS their new mother and father (family).
cool, is a matter of perspective. I would rather not run around armed all the time, but the competition for limited resources will never end.
I can see the average school teacher, a bit dowdy, attacking a psychopathic shooter and beating him to death with an eraser, yeah, Grrl Power!
You lost me at “Their intentions are good”.
What’s outdated is clinging to a old parchment as a preserver for individual liberties.
It’s nice it’s there I guess but it’s pitifully sad to call upon it to defend freedom.
Shredding the BOR or the entire Constitution overnight won’t make me any less free tomorrow. If anything the lack of a safety net to fall back onto would make me more free tomorrow than I am today.
I dont care what the BOR says. I know what’s freedom and what’s not. This is not even with the BOR sitting there in a glass case.
So,.. had she worn a shirt say,..depicting something from the movie Hunger Games. Would that promote violence? I’ve seen T-Shirts showing the main character with a drawn and ready bow. What about Manufacturer logos. I saw a kid with a Winchester t-shirt not to long ago.I think it had one of their shotguns on the shirt. And what about kids who hunt. Hunting is pretty big here in the south east. Every other boy in school sports camo 4 days a week in the off season. I’ve seen shirts depicting hunting scenes with rifle at the ready or an animal under cross-hairs. What if a High-schooler is reading something like,..oh, say, Titus Andronicus or Lord of the Flies or Heart of Darkness, or any number of other classics that explore that side of mankind.
Does this really shock anyone…?
You ever see Jay Walking on the Tonight Show…?
Most people probably couldn’t point out Canada on a globe without labels.
Just got a new N-PAP the other day it was manufactured 04/13 and is a bit different than site said.
Mine didn’t come with rail on dust cover it came with side mount installed, the dust cover is tight unlike what others are saying, it has double stack CHROME bolt, I have no rattle in mags when installed, very heavy and well built unlike the cheap feeling WASR.
All the negative posts about the PAP seems to be coming from 99% of those that have never even HELD one, they just popping off what they read from the one or two that actually owned one of the first gens that were having issues.
So until tour actually owned one and SHOT it keep your pie hole shut! It just makes you look more stupid.
I own and like my ARs as well.
I’m personally getting tired of all the pansies telling kids when and where and IF they can play with a TOY gun. If they’re in MY yard and are not firing projectiles into someone else’s property, they need to butt out. I don’t come over to their house and tell them how to run things.
Pretty interesting video and discussion.
Clearly the cop reacted according to his training–which was surely “center of mass.” Hard to fault that, even though we know that center of mass hits aren’t immediately incapacitating–I certainly wouldn’t have been taking head shots in that situation, with the guy dodging around like that.
I shot .40s the second half of my career, first a Sigma then a Glock 22. I knew the people with 9s could put aimed shots on target faster than I could, so I suppose the need to make the first shot count is greater with the .40.
Hadda turn my Glock in when I retired 7 years ago, but still have the Sigma. Took it out and shot it for the first time in at least 10 years a couple weeks ago and was pleasantly surprised at how decent it felt. But I just bought an XDM compact 3.8 in 9mm which I’ll be trying out in a few days. It may be compact but it’s a heavy pistol, so I’ll be very interested to see how it compares to a .40 as far as recoil and muzzle flip go.
Its absurd how worked up people get over this stuff. Im former military and LEO and have carried 5.56 and 308 in the field. Each has its merits and disadvantages. The 300 blk fills a void between those two. Sure there are lots of others. Each designed to do something a little better than the next. If you like it, shoot it. If you dont, then dont shoot it. I like the 300 because I can use my pistol powders for reloading and the components are cheap. But dont crap on it because you heard this or read that. Try it and see. Its not a sniper round nor was it intended to be for pete’s sake. Its a combat/hunting round and does the job very well. Ive dumped two whitetail deer, 4 coyotes, and a couple pigs with mine. They didnt seem to notice if I shot them with a 300 BLK or a 300 Win Mag.
I lived in New York until a couple months ago.
New York Mag restriction does not apply to non detachable tube magazines.
Also, you can still have ten rounders, this is completely off.
Definately an A1, early 70’s?
“Increased drift is not the end of the world, though, and if measured properly, can be overcome with ease”
With ease huh? The author is basing his velocity doesn’t matter on this statement, with the assertion that wind can easily be overcome. That is simply not true, wind is a bitch and anyone that says otherwise is lying to themselves.
I would name it Darla. I just think it’s a good fit for a classic lady who still knows how to rock’ n roll!
My Marlin 60 is old enough to vote, so I’m assuming it’s from well before freedom group screwed everything up. Been thinking of getting a .22 for my wife, and Marlin had been on the list. Think I’ll go with a Mossberg or a 10/22.
I have to agree now after reading everyone’s list. If it is not for us but for the low knowledge citizen:
the Russian gun that terrorists use
the Viet Nam gun
the cowboy pistol
the cowboy rifle with the thing that goes down
the 45, I think it’s called the 911
Bonus
the one the old time cops used like the cowboy gun but with a real short barrel
It fits her purse “perfectly”. As opposed to, say, an M-2 flamethrower.
So Saive not only designed the Right Arm of the Free World (the FN-FAL), but the Sidearm of the Free World as well.
That’s why I rank him #2 after JMB in Greatest Gun Designers in History.
Like the ATF should have anything to say about lost or stolen guns. Those dipshits have their weapons stolen regularly. And let us not forget fast and furious or their other very unconstitutional “sting” operations.
I hear Bloomberg is a regular customer; he worries about being shot in error by his NYPD detail.
Maine, the way life should be.
A Henry golden boy in .22 mag.
This thing is gorgeous. Can’t wait to foul it up and see how it shoots.
Good review. It would have been a bit better in my opinion if you had removed the caps on the turrets so we could have a look.
Does the turrets have an audible click? Is there good tactile feedback? Does it sound/feel like metal on metal or are they soft and mushy?
Made in China?
Meh.
We already have 10/30’s and 10/20’s as we call them. These people are very late to the game here. My LGS will sell me Magpul’s. 30 rd body, but blocked to 10rds.
Any reason to favor these Johnny come lately’s?
hah! that is a big fat NO!
the states with the most sway and political power have just gotten worse. some free states have made it easier to carry. big whoop. we are loosing bad.
with the msm reporting such bias and false info, future generations will be more brainwashed than the Hitler youth. (slight exaggeration) so the future battles don’t look to bright either.
the arguememnt for barrel length versus accuracey is legendary and is argued at almost every level of shooting. The only shooting discipline that can accuratey argue the point is the benchrest circuit, specifically the “rail gun” crowd. Accuracy is as much a component of barre length as it is projectile weight / coefficient and powder charge. Combine these factors with actual yardage ( i’m an old guy- i like the imperial system) and the data set can be overwhelming. It is a well documented fact that barrel length will effect velocity and that velocity can be directly and proportionally tied to accuracy at given distances. If TTAG reader were hoping for a forehead slapping, epiphany like article they are probably too new to the shooting sports to intelligably argue the points.
Why make this so complicated? Take the same round, same load, same twist, same everything. Anchor the different length barrels rigidly (no shooter). Put some target of sufficient size out there some distance far enough so that all the rounds don’t go into the same hole. Fire a bunch through each barrel and measure the spread of the pattern. The other stuff may be interesting but contains so many contaminating factors as to be worthless. If you must screw around with the mechanics, vary the load so that the velocity is the same for each barrel length. It is fun to have these arguments that go on for years and provide income for the different sides of the argument but like so many things, this is not a thing about opinion, it is, or can be made, empirical.
You were square on with your comments until you said “screw with the load until the velocities are the same”….Velocity is a vector quantity that refers to the rate at which an object changes its position.- if you match velocities out of two different length barrels, given the matching ballistic coefficients – your results will be the same “down range”. Quick basic litmus test would be to change only one variable- barrel length. And then measure the impact spread at known distances.This is science fair 101.
Hi John I am wondering what powder and primer did you use for the 110 grain vmax
Sorry I meant Josh not John 🙂
Hey, sorry I don’t check this article often! My tested load was wildly hot but very, very accurate out to very great distance.
Win brass
CCI BR2 Primer
48gr Benchmark
If you don’t handload alot, don’t blow your gun up trying to do this.
As I result of reading this article I bought a 700 in heavy barrel 16.5″. It gets so much hate. No shorty love. I always refer people back to this article. Thanks for taking the time to put this together.
lol. 1MOA accuracy at 900 yds with a 110gr VMAX?
Nice caveat: This study does not aim to look at terminal effects, rates of drop and drift, combat effectiveness, ethical viewpoints, or legal/political issues.
Increased barrel length does not mean a more accurate barrel. The benchrest crowd proved that years ago. So if accuracy is your primary concern, a moderately short barrel may be ideal.
Basically it comes down to ergonomics – what works for you. You like a 16 inch barrel, then get one. You like shooting small targets at long range, get a longer barrel.
What increased barrel length does add is more velocity, more energy, less drop, and less drift. Being a hunter, those are the factors that matter to me.
This whole article and the following comments are quite possibly the largest collection of willful ignorance I’ve come across outside of random zombie forums. Outside of the 1 in 20 post that actually know what they’re talking about.
Any approach at getting results being completely ruined by the massive amount of uncontrolled variables.
Furthermore, this used only 1 type of round. This does not make it all inclusive for all rifles. Try shooting a .50 BMG round out of a 13″ barrel. Go ahead and cut that 300 win mag down to 16″. Lets see how much velocity you lose cutting down a 6mm barrel.
There is no real “truth” to such a general topic and broad spectrum that encompasses firearms in this article.
Sure, a shorter barrel is more rigid than a longer barrel. Congrats. You wasted all that time and energy “proving” something that has been explained ad nasuem by real shooters and barrel manufacturers.
You should rename this to “I cherry picked my data to prove my point of view”. That is all this was. Most of the commenters should cancel their internet forever.
I just bought my AR 15 Anderson 16 in Barl. Molly Lined 1 in 7 twist [ just wanted to know what was the twist rates on barells tested ? i think in all the readind i might have missed it. im shootin Hornday 40 gr sight in dead bulls eye 100 yrds. 200 yrsd 5 rounds in 2 in group . I think this is pretty Darn good right up there with my Savage Bolt .243 . I was planning on buyimg a longer barell for my AR but i think i will save some $ and just buy AMMO ;] Coyotes will be Howling RUN HIDEEEE
The article had some good info, but in a nutshell it needs to be understood for most average shooters a longer barrel will be more accurate especially when shooting a pistol versus a rifle.. A 9mm carbine’s trajectory is easier to calculate then that of a 5 inch barreled 9mm pistol..
The barrel length itself is only part of the factor because a .308 will go further with more power and less drop then a 5.56.. but because most people aren’t as good at instinctively calculating a bullet drop trajectory so even a difference of 300 fps can matter..
Yeah I’ve seen guys who can shoot and hit a target at 400+ yards with a 9mm – because they practice and do it all the time.. but the average guy who shoots occasionally won’t be able to replicate this often..
The “study” doesnt cover “IF” there is a tipping point. What if you cut a rifle barrel off to the length of 5 inches or 6 inches? Yes, I know thats not practical… but the point is you WON’T see the military or anyone else buying 6 inch rifles anytime in the forseeable future.. I’m sure the SEAL team & USMC Force Recon will stick with standard equipment because they need the extra 300+ FPS when using that longer barrel and shooting targets a 1/4 mile out and much further..
A *lot* of info to absorb. This’ll require multiple readings.
My takeaway: my 26″ 357mag levergun provides more mag capacity & that’s about it. I can live with that.
Thanks y’all!
Absolutely great article based on scientific fundamentals. Thank you for sharing. My passion for understanding ballistic science and the practical application thereof makes this fantastic reading. Wish I was closer to have been part of your research team. Thanx!!
actually the teir 1 units are using 16 inch 308 sass with great effectivenesss
Interesting study. One thing to consider is longer barrels aren’t as stiff as a shorter barrels. Barrel profile also has an effect. A long skinny barrel is whippy, a heavy long barrel is less so. What that adds up to is a longer barrel provides a level of practical velocity (a velocity which kills quickly) which a shorter barrel can’t. So if you want excellent accuracy out of a long, heavy barrel which provides velocities which kill instantly, you need to find the accuracy velocity of that heavy, long barrel. There’s an article which explain this in great detail. See http://www.sportbar-favorit.ru/accuracy.html
Best Regards
Luther
In almost every data point in the nine accuracy graphs here the 26″ performed better than the 13.5″.
So the claim that “There was no noticeable critical difference in accuracy at any range.” seems incongruous with the data.
Thank God there was a link in your other article, to this one… So yeah… Have you started a blog yet? I think people should get more into the research and start questioning everything that they seem to know. Thanks for another great article.
I thought Josh’s preconceived statements on barrel length, velocity and accuracy clearly depict common beliefs especially among surface readers and non-readers whom rely mostly on gun club banter. I’m sure we all understand a blog post is by no means a canvas for an all out research report. His work here does seem to predicate his thesis and I look forward to seeing more in-depth and expanded research on the topic in the future. Assuming the expense of any real world research in this area I’m looking forward to a crowd funded experiment in the coming years.
To call this pile of juvenile word salad a study is a gross disservice to those in academia, government and industry that are doing actual real research. Just the space confirmation bias in this thing is enough to fill a galaxy. Asking a question that could not be possibly answered because the experiment wasn’t properly designed to do so is intellectual dishonesty or willful ignorance or borne of idealogical zeal. TTAG should be ashamed of promulgating this nonsense as information. At best the “study” results do not agree with the conclusions.
It is intriguing that “some dude” doesn’t give a real name… and yet he is claiming to have knowledge of higher “academia”. This is funny for two reasons. First, learn what an oxford comma is and when to use it. Second, don’t bash someone’s opinion then say the study dos not match the results when you give no hypothesis, synthesis, (notice the oxford comma I just used) or adjudication as to why the study is bogus. Who am I going to take more seriously? “Some dude” blabbing on a blog without any support or proof OR a company that obviously has money and the means to perform some testing and give results? If you want to be skeptical than at least suggest that it is worth looking into before you blast it without proof.
I hold three engineering degrees and I disagree with you. I thought the article was a very good start at using science to attempt to answer real world questions. BTW: since you invoke ‘academia”, what’s you academic background?
Although interesting and compelling, the methods and the author’s conclusions are seriously flawed. A fifteen to thirty-one percent variance in data is not insignificant as the author claims. This author failed to employ the basic tenets of the scientific method, in which a problem is identified, relevant data are gathered, a hypothesis is formulated from these data, and most importantly, the hypothesis is empirically tested. This test is not science. The author failed to identified a standard and compare different conditions against that standard. If, for example the M80 ball, designated as a standard, was fired through barrels of different lengths and factory ammunition of different bullet weights were compared to this standard, this data might be valid. But by using ammunition from multiple manufactures and bullets types, to include hand-loaded ammunition, the author’s data is at best food for thought. In affect, the author has increased the volume of misinformation on this topic published on the internet.
you seem like a real smart and bold guy anonymously attacking a good author with a dry tone and stark opinions. why don’t you publish a report like this and see how seriously others take you. Sorry, but I’m just tired of trolls on this site. good day.
Actually, you are being sarcastic, naive or holding someones hand. This guy is correct and you should know that. I will give you an example. M855 was developed to shoot out of 20 inch barrels. It does ok out of 18 inch barrels. However, it doesn’t live up to the standard of piercing 1 side of a steel helmet at 600 meters with a 16 inch barrel.
Yesterday I took my SAV 12 6MM BR NORMA out to the range, It has a 29″barrell and a 1in8 right hand twist. I shot two 4 shot groups , 0.1295″ and 0.1795″ at 100 yards. Admittedly I had refined the projectile seating depth. The first was on the lands and the second 20 thou off the lands. I was gobsmacked, never having shot that well at 100 yards with ANYTHING. The intervening groups were unremarkable at 5 thou intervals. Needless to say I gave her a cuddle when I cleaned her and put her away. I think it was the long barrel, low load of slow burning powder and Berger 105 grain VLD projectiles.
I’ve read through this article and the comments a number of times. I appreciate both sides of the argument, and perhaps I should just leave it at that, but I feel compelled to say something.
A lot of criticism is directed at the author for conducting a study that to many was not detailed or scientific enough. Yet in the same criticism, a great deal of weight is attached to wind without any mention of how much and from where. Yes I’m being pedantic, heavier and faster bullets will fair better in any wind than lighter, slower ones; but the point I am making is that surely in assessing “accuracy” or “precision” the notion of wind is meaningless. From a practical standpoint it is critical but in assessing whether a shorter or longer barrel is more accurate shouldn’t one be shooting in a wind tunnel to eliminate another external factor from the equation?
I honestly don’t disagree with a lot of the comments made above, I have no dog in this fight, I don’t know Josh from Adam but I feel that some of the criticism is a little misguided. If you hunt, or wear a uniform I can appreciate that terminal effects downrange are similarly critical and it may be inadvisable to unnecessarily reduce bullet velocity where lives hang in the balance.
That said, this study appears to show that a wide range of .308 ammunition (much of it not optimized for a particular barrel length) was shot out of barrels of varying length over various distances without a significant difference in accuracy.
It was suggested that the same may well not be true of other calibres. I’ll subscribe fully to that theory. What these results do emphasize to me however is that the argument that the .308 calibre is extremely versatile is well founded. Whilst obviously the best results are obtained by optimizing barrel length and loads, what is apparent here is that even mismatching ammunition with barrel length produces credible results.
Obviously building a 1000 yard gun with a 13.5″ barrel isn’t optimal but it is nice to know that with the advent of new firearms like Faxon’s ARAK 31 you could conceivably have a single rifle that serves as both an SBR with a sub 14 inch barrel and a longer range firearm with a 20 inch barrel and be able to expect decent accuracy over appropriate ranges irrespective of what ammunition is available.
Of course that type of information is probably only relevant to people on Zombie Forums looking to build a bug out gun for which they can scavenge ammunition from any Walmart, Mom and Pop store or isolated farmhouse they come across …
Very good article. Makes a good case for those who have bought a shorter barrel rifle but in the case of say an AR-15 there are some good reasons why people buy the 20″ barrel (the old mil spec length) instead of the shorter 14″-18″ barrels: 1) because of the longer barrel the gas pathway (for ejection) can be located farther down the barrel which results in lower gas pressure (and therefore presumably longer life) due to these lower pressures. On a shorter barrel, the gas port is located closer to the chamber meaning the gas is bled off at a much higher pressure with greater demands put on the system; 2) the recoil on a 20″ seems to be less than on a shorter barrel maybe because of more mass in the gun; 3) the bullet velocity is higher on a longer barrel and this results in a flatter trajectory. This is due to greater work applied to the bullet with work being the integral of PdV where P is pressure and dV is the change in volume. A greater barrel length has greater volume and hence more work is expended resulting in a higher velocity; 4) when using iron sights you get a better sight distance on a longer barrel. This is negated if you use a scope but for iron sights, the longer the distance between the sights the better the aim, in general and 5) the weight difference on an AR type weapon for a 16″ vs a 20″ barrel is a whopping 12 ounces (approx) out of about a 7 lb weapon. For these and other reasons, people elect to carry the slightly longer weapon.
All in all though, you were spot-on with your information in showing that you don’t necessarily give up accuracy because of a shorter barrel but in the case of an AR, you do give up a number of things.
Fact: To present this article as a “scientific study” is laughable.
Question: And how many contributions have you made to the shooting community? That’s what I thought.
900 yds is not exactly the “Long Range” at which Long barrels become relevant now is it???
Match shooters and Fclass go out to 1200 yds.. they do not mince about with anything less then 28″
Try shooting a mile or a even just a kilometer with 308 out of that short barrel, then you might start to see some relevant data. I know guys that hit with great results at those ranges, but i can tell you they ain’t using 20″ barrels,they ain’t using 26″ either wich will get you to 1000 meters when a 20 won’t. And nevermind the 13″ Why are we even discussing this??
Why are we discussing this? Well, I think that is the comment of a narrow-minded person stuck in the old way of thinking. This article is extremely relevant to our interests as a community as SBRs and shorter rifles become the standard.
I’ve shot a lot at longer ranges, and I’ll tell you that that represents only a small percentage of my actual shooting and hunting. I don’t think anyone would take an SBR out to hunt at 1200 yards, but there is literally no difference in anything out to about three hundred yards or meters. If you plug in the data and such for the 175 GGM, there isn’t even a real-world difference at that range, which makes a more compact rifle better for hunting in my mind. It’s already loud, so that’s not an issue.
Also, I don’t think this article was written for people shooting F-Class. Your statement was kinda like posting about Formula 1 rules on a Neon mods site. I think it was written to show the normal shooter that he wasn’t losing anything by going shorter, which is all the rage these days. The whole 1000 yard benchmark is a bogus old way of trying to make rifles perform in ways that they weren’t meant to. There’s a reason the author of this article chose 900 yards as his limit, which if you read it you would know was as far as he could go, so I don’t know why you chose to make that an issue.
Anyways, Van, ego is big when you sit behind a keyboard, but I bet you’d never cut up a barrel yourself and then take crap on the internet from know-it-all desk jockeys. The earth was flat once, just like all barrels had to be long. Times change, so try to keep up! If you read this, Josh, thanks and keep up the good work!
I see a lot of hate on this article, but 175 or so comments spanning three years makes this one of the most traffic-rich and heavily debated articles on this site I’d bet. I found this while looking up a question about SBRs and this answered my question. I just can’t believe how narrow-minded most of the people in these comments are about what I think is a huge contribution to the community as a whole. I usually never comment on these boards, but the comments here are just incredible in their creative lack of vision. This is embarrassing, guys. A man going to college takes the effort to make a difference and honestly shows his results and you smear him with opinions stuck in the stone age? Seriously? This is how the gun community treats pioneers and trailblazers? You guys make me sick and I can see why the liberal left wants to disarm you. You can’t even be civil to your own people in your own press! Shame on you!
Josh, if you read this, which I don’t know if you will, please take solace in the fact that your article has inspired a hundred shooters for every detractor in these comments. Shorter barrels and compact rifles are the way of the future and I’m sending my own 308 to be cut down to make it handier and lighter. Good work and please do more to rile up the neanderthals lurking in this community.
Lonny H
Hey Lonny,
I was an anthropology minor in college and, from what I learned, Neanderthal people were actually very intelligent and had a very long run in the timeline of human evolution. I wouldn’t think that they would be easy to rile up, as the fossil record demonstrates that they were expert craftsmen and hunters. http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-11408298
Therefore, I believe that they would readily embrace new technology and be open to the ideas I presented here, unlike some members of Homo Sapiens Sapiens.
Thank you for the support, Lonny. I’m glad I was able to help you out. Don’t worry about how this stuff is received by the community. They will learn eventually.
Josh
Someone has to drag them into the 21st century, kicking and screaming.
This is an old post but was hoping someone would still be monitoring. As a qualified “Hoosier Hick”, who also has a Masters Degree, a fascination w statistics, and a job to match both, love empirical data and analysis. Maybe I missed it but I curious on some qualitative info, the complete experience-level of the shooter(s)? Does a longer barrel offer more stability for a more inexperienced shooter? For full disclosure, contemplating building a dual purpose AR-10 (tactical and hunting), as I own a couple AR-15’s but very much want to make an
educated choice on barrel–which is my starting point.
I just got the PA 459 Weatherby 12 gauge pump. Payed $350 with LED flashlight mounted to the bottom picatine rail. Awsome deal and love the grip. Not plastic pistol grip. More like a rubber type synthetic grip. Very durable, and solid black. In home defense, I need a solid black gun. Need to remain unseen. Very loud rack. So 9times outta 10. The sound of me racking the gun will send even the hardest criminal running. The light is so bright anyone unfortunate enough to be caught infront of my gun, will be blinded, and frozen in fear praying my pointer doesn’t squeeze back ½ inch, sending them back through ½ the room.
It seems to me you are referring to the variability of the rifle’s precision and not its accuracy. A rifle with a smaller SD of MOA in more precise than one with a greater MOA. One rifle with a ten inch group around a the point of aim point and another gun five inches around the same point are both accurate. One is more precise than the other.
Interesting. Can’t say I am looking forward to sighting in a few new scopes I have just mounted after reading it. Earlier this year I purchased a break barrel airgun that was supposedly one of the better ones out there. When I tried to get a scope on it to zero though, it was all over the place. Finally, just to see, tried to see how it grouped with open sights at 25 feet. Still all over the place. Great to know info, add to that that some guns should just be sent back to their maker with a “Need refurbishing work” sticker on them for a big discount off of new for the next down ballot consumer.
I often suspected these facts on short barrels to be true. But only had facts about velocity per inch lost when chopping a barrel. And when looking for evidence could only find armchair commandos very hostile opinions. Dont ask them anything unless you want to be virtually spit on and ridiculed. I honestly believe that alot of these people are kids and old ass wannabe people who are to dumb and lazy to do anything but watch youtube. So thank you very much for trying to prove you theory. And good luck with your schooling.
I know you went to a lot of trouble for your data. Your test should have been conducted with 3 – 5 different rifles. Also when you load for a rifle you take in account the barrel length the bullet size the primer used how old the rifle is the cartridge and then you also lathe the cartridge thickness to even it out and trim the neck, deburr the primer pocket inside and out for the even flash, tumble the brass until it is clean inside and out, weighing and separating the cases and bullets into categories before reloading. A casing or (bullet) that weights slightly more than another means that it is thicker than the other hence it will hold the bullet with more pressure releasing the bullet with more pounds per square inch giving you the inaccurate grouping that you were getting. Doing these steps and more gives you the tighter grouping that you didn’t get in your results. You will also see the difference in accuracy from barrel lengths on distance shots. I reload for many people and when they shoot their grouping at 100 yards will fit in a dime.
As the gentleman said above, the data is insignificant (which doesn’t mean meaningless, necessarily), because there are a lot of unaccounted-for variables, including but not limited to the raw number of rifles AT EACH LENGTH tested. I normally appreciate TTAGs articles, but there are so many holes in this one that my reading it was a waste of time. You can do better.
My lord what a long thread. We’ll said above. Was the rifle scrubbed clean before the test because if it was then you most deffinately introduced a climbing relative mv, lessening the mv loss with each chop. Your barrel would have been better to have dirtier up over 40 shots first.
-I think you proved that velocity is vital to precision so yeah cheers for that. This made me buy a long barrel rather than a puny carbine that can only send light projectiles out to 100y ads. A slower bullet has to be lobbed up much higher to hit the same point. If there is wind, it gains a foot/second for every additional foot of elevation. That’s why the 308 is pathetic past 800m
I just want to comment, or ask what if, concerning barrel length and accuracy. Your accuracy was based on your ability to shoot a scoped rifle accurately. Your tests showed that the scoped rifle you used seemed to be more accurate with a shorter barrel. My supposition about this is that a shorter barrel rifle is lighter and easier to hold still than a rifle with a long barrel.
Velocity may not seem to be important to a target shooter but 300 plus fps can mean the difference between a clean kill and a wounded animal if the bullet velocity is not high enough to upset the bullet jacket and cause a killing wound.
Now to the meat: Did you try your accuracy tests with a shorter and longer barrel using open sights? Barrel length makes a big difference to one who shoots open sights. The longer sighting plane and heavier front end weight helps with muzzle stability and thus helps to create better accuracy.
The data you present proves that your shooting ability with a scoped rifle presents one type of information for one type of rifle with certain accoutrements. Now go test a Plain Jane unscoped rifle and see what happens. Barrel length will make a difference in velocity and target accuracy.
I use scoped long barreled rifles because I shoot them better.
Thanks
Ron
I seems to me that you have only provided evidence that the barrel that flexes more is less precise. If it was true simply that a shorter barrel was more accurate than a longer one then a 10″ barrel with the minimum wall thickness to contain the pressure would be more precise than a 20″ one with an inch thick wall.
You will never see a 13.5 inch barrel in any serious, professional (stakes are high) rifle competition, nor will a 16 inch barrel make the winner’s circle. And there are numerous, real-world, valid reason for that. You will never see a professional soldier who is a sniper shooting long range with a 13.5 inch barrel. And there are numerous, valid, real-world reasons for that. This study was a comical exercise in defending the guy who desperately wants to believe that his sbr can do it all.
The fliers may be caused by variable ammo
Nice work Josh. However, you seem to have found yourself in the proverbial “when an irresistible force meets an immovable object” conundrum, as my late dad, rest his soul, was fond of saying. The shooting community is rather unforgiving of those who would knock their sacred cows. I am an experienced shooter, open to challenges to my preconceived ideas, no matter what they may be. That said, you presented an intelligent, well thought out, fact based argument. The funny thing is to see the viciousness with which the attacks are launched. I do not recall you once saying, “Okay everybody, based on my conclusions, you all must immediately go out and buy hacksaws and cut all your rifle barrels down to 13.5”.! I believe you were very clear that this works for you, but no one is obliged to take your path. I for one am intrigued, and would have bought one of your rifles if you were still building them. Since I already have a .308 bolt gun sitting around waiting for a change, I wonder if you would let me know how to build a rig similar to yours?
Gun control advocate: Nobody wants to take your guns.
Gun rights advocate: What if it’s an “assault rifle?” Can I still keep it? Yeah. That’s what I thought.
CBP- Customs and Border Protection…qualify 2-4 times a year depending on who is in charge…
shoot 3 sets of 30 rounds each time…plus some extra in scenario shooting…so maybe 120 rounds per officer 3 times a year…multiplied by about 40,000…so almost 15M rounds a year for CBP alone.
75M over 5 years.
A friend of mine sent this to me. It is worth the read. It is a great take down of a poorly written and poorly (if at all) researched anti-gun screed. It is really too bad that Salon’s readership will lap up Assner’s assertions as if they flowed forth untainted from the fountain of truth.
“To be human is to be at the mercy of anger, our own and that of those around us. Keeping guns out of the hands of those who can’t harness their demons will keep Americans safer in their homes, safer around their children and safer as a nation.”
#narrativefail – So, it’s not the evil, killing machines possessed by demons?
#narrativefail – Bad people do bad things sometimes. Maybe the rest of us should be prepared for that, like for example to stop a mass shooter wanna-be?
#narrativefail – Most people, it turns out, aren’t possessed by demons.
#narrativefail – Humanity as a whole isn’t perfect, or perfectible?
Funny how when you start dealing with reality, you end up supporting the gunny folks’ position on armed citizens on utilitarian grounds.
No.
I have probably forgotten, at some point, that I had a gun in my car though.
As an FFL , I have no interest nor will I handle Mail Order Ammo shipments –This is one pain in the ass–We have to receive –,store –document,–insure– make out paperwork –log sale in ledger–notify DOJ of each sale –AND if its not picked up –Thats another story !
Not for me !!!
Buy your Ammo from a local store .
This is not so much a comment as it is a question for anyone on this site that may have the answer. That question would be about full powder burn On a 308 rifle and what would the barrel length need to be to get it I read everything about barrel Length and all of that but I didn’t see anywhere in there about getting the full powder burn on a 308 rifle and what would the barrel length need to be to get it and I believe that has a Lot to do with getting the greatest accuracy and velocity out of the round if anyone could answer this I would be greatly appreciative thank you very much I look forward to the answer p.s. ruffling is 1in 9 twist
You only shot to 540 yards that’s a far fetched claim to say collected data would translate to longer distance… I would suggest you research transonic affect and what happens to bullet stability around 1340 fps. Then reconduct your test and actually shoot to 900 yards.
Grand Rapids checking in here!
Way to represent MI. Very interesting results
We are committed to assisting customers worldwide with their unique needs by providing them with comprehensive and professional service, enjoying a good reputation among our business partners and customers for high quality products, excellent after sales services,buy fentanyl powder competitive prices and prompt shipping.
buy fentanyl powder
buy fentanyl powder
We have two different types of tabernanthe Iboga Extract products, Iboga TA Extract and Ibogaine HCL. Ibogaine is a new chemical addiction therapy that eliminates physical withdrawal symptoms and interrupts drug cravings. It is both a therapeutic and psychoactive addict. It helps break both drug and alcohol addiction. We deliver worldwide without problems. Treatment info and all the help you need about our products is also provided. We are potential producers of Iboga root barks and Ibogaine hcl. Ibogaine is the active chemical found in the African tabernanthe iboga root. It is known for its modern use in the treatment of opiate, other drug addiction. If you are interested in our products, please contact us by email. Iboga TA Extract means Iboga “Total Alkaloid” Extract.ibogaine for sale TA extracts contain all the active alkaloid compounds in Tabernanthe Iboga root bark, but are highly concentrated – so a much smaller amount is required.
How to cure your addiction with Ibogaine / Iboga
ibogaine for sale,
Website:https://ibogainepharm.com
https://buyviscoplusmatrix.store/
https://adhd30mg.com/
https://pharmaceuticalpowders.com/product/buy-methamphetamine-crystal-meth/
https://crystalmethbuy.com/crystal-meth/
slot machines
https://firearmssupplier.com/arcade-games-machines/
https://medicianinjectables.com/product/order-anesket-1000mg-10ml/
Wickr id: medpluz
https://adhd30mg.com/adhd-medications/
https://research-chem-lab.com/shop/
https://crystalmethbuy.com/crystal-meth/
https://firearmssupplier.com/
https://pharmaceuticalpowders.com/product-category/pharmaceutical-api-powders-supplier/
https://phentermineweightlosspills.com/product/buy-phentermine-37-5mg-australia/
https://buyviscoplusmatrix.store/viscoplus-matrix-supplier/
https://clinicalresearchchemicals.com/product-category/buy-3cmc-4-cmc-crystals/
https://cocainestimulants.co/product/buy-crack-cocaine/
https://pinballsmachines.com/pinball-machines/
https://diabeticclinicsupplies.store/product/buy-ozempic-semaglutide-injections/
https://euthanasianembutal.com/nembutal-pentobarbital/
https://whatisketamine.com/product/ketamine-hcl-injectable-500mg-ml-10ml/
https://buyesketamine.com/
https://thegoldentriangleice.com/
https://qualitycounterfeitbanknotes.com/product/buy-counterfeit-100-euro-bills/
https://wilmardermalfillercosmetics.com/product/buy-1000cc-macrolane-buttock-injections-online/
https://milovicdermalfillercosmetics.store/product/buy-2000cc-pmma-buttock-injections/
https://ketamineanalogues.com/product-category/ketamine-crystal-for-sale/
https://cyndydermalfillercosmetics.store/product-category/buy-botox-online/
https://3mmcbuy4mmc.com/4mmc-europe/
https://alpharoadriders.com/electric-bikes-for-sale-near-me/
https://betachemicalslab.com/product/isotodesnitazene-for-sale/
https://goodfellasvendor.co/product/buy-furanyl-fentanyl-powder-online/
https://psittaciformesbreeders.com/exotic-bird-shop/
https://fentvendor.com/product/buy-carfentanil-online/
https://ketamineanalogues.com/
https://durominephentermineinc.com/product/buy-phentermine-37-5mg-australia/
https://crystalmethsuppliers.com/product/methamphetamine-crystals-meth-online/
https://chemcrystals.com/product/mdpv-crystals-for-sale/
https://e-vendors.com/product/buy-3cmc-4cmc-crystals/
https://buygoldanddiamonds.com/
http://buyureafertilizeronline.com/
https://alphacannabisdispensary.com/
https://ketamineinjectionbuy.com/
comprando cocaína online,comprar cocaína online,como posso comprar cocaína,comprar cocaína nos eua, comprar crack online,comprar cocaína peruana online,comprar cocaína online discreta melb agora,você pode comprar cocaína online,comprar cocaína online no canadá,comprar cocaína online na austrália,como comprar cocaína online,você pode comprar cocaína online,onde comprar cocaína online,onde posso comprar crack online,posso comprar cocaína online,você realmente pode comprar cocaína online,você realmente pode comprar cocaína online em reino unido,você pode comprar cocaína on-line,como posso comprar cocaína on-line,encomendar cocaína on-line,comprar cocaína on-line,encomendar cocaína on-line,como comprar cocaína on-line,como encontrar coca,como comprar cocaína rosa peruana on-line,traficantes de coca perto de mim ,você pode realmente comprar cocaína online,comprar cocaína online com bitcoins
Buy Peruvian Pink Cocaine Online – cylauchem
Buy BIO Cocaine Online – cylauchem
https://cylauchem.com/product/buy-peruvian-pink-cocaine-online/
https://www.skylinehackers.com/come-assumere-un-hacker/
https://www.skylinehackers.com/contratar-a-un-hacker/
https://www.skylinehackers.com/crypto-scam-recovery/
https://www.skylinehackers.com/how-to-hire-a-hacker/
https://www.skylinehackers.com/
https://www.skylinehackers.com/contact/
https://www.skylinehackers.com/how-can-i-hire-a-hacker/
Psychedelic research is still in its infancy, Molly Crockett, PhD, the study’s senior author and an assistant professor of psychology at Yale University in Connecticut, told Healthline.
Our study adds to a growing evidence base of potential mood benefits of psychedelics, but more research needs to be done to realize this potential
https://ultradmtshop.com/product/buy-changa-dmt/
Ultra dmt shop https://ultradmtshop.com is an online store aimed at reducing the stress of buyer walking kilometers to purchase a good. our products are 100% tested and pure with a refund policy of about 98% if clients are not satisfied with our product quality or ever might be the case. our products are sold world wide and 3 to 5 days delivery out of the United States with delivery via the USPS,Fedex and DHL 100% delivery guarantee https://ultradmtshop.com/dmt-for-sale/
Sig Sauer P210Ruger American Pistol 9mm 4.2 Inch 17Rd Glock G19xGlock 36 Gen 3sig sauer p938GLOCK G43GLOCK G19XFN AMERICAGLOCK G43XTAURUS G2CCustom Springfield Hellcatsig sauer P322700-X 4lb. – Hodgdon PowderHodgdon #800X 8 Lb. Keghttps://gunsandgadgetscom.com/best-primers-for-handguns/cci 200 large rifle primersWinchester USA Ready Large Rifle Match Primers Box of 1000 (10 Trays of 100)Remington Large Pistol Primers #2-1/2 Box of 1000 (10 Trays of 100)Remington 5 1/2 Primers Small PistolWinchester Small Rifle Primers | 5,000 CountWinchester Small Rifle Primers | 1,000 Countgirsan 1911EAA Girsan MC P35 pistol 4.625″ 15+1 9MMAmerican Tactical FXH-45 MOXIE 45 ACP 1911 Hybrid Pistol308 win magFederal Small Pistol Match PrimersHodgdon Powder Pyrodex RS 1lbHodgdon Titegroup Smokeless Gun PowderHodgdon Varget Smokeless Gun PowderIMR 4895 Smokeless Gun PowderHodgdon Hi-Skor 700-X Smokeless Gun PowderAlliant Reloder 22 Smokeless Gun PowderAlliant Steel Smokeless Gun PowderCCI Large Pistol Magnum Primers #350 Box of 1000 (10 Trays of 100)Springfield Armory 1911 Garrison Semi-Automatic PistolSig Sauer P229R Legion Semi-Automatic PistolSmith and Wesson M&P 2.0 9mm 4.25 Inch 15Rds CO CompliantRuger American Pistol 9mm 4.2 Inch 17RdFN 502 Tactical 22LR PistolFN 509 Tactical 9mmCCI 450 primersAccurate 4350 Smokeless Gun PowderAccurate No. 5 Smokeless Gun PowderAccurate 2200 Smokeless Gun PowderAccurate 4064 Smokeless Gun PowderAccurate 1680 Smokeless Gun PowderAccurate 4100Accurate 2015Accurate LT-32 Smokeless Gun PowderAccurate LT-30 Smokeless Gun PowderAlliant Reloder 19Alliant Reloder 33Alliant American Select Smokeless Gun PowderAlliant Reloder 15Henry Lever Action Centerfire RifleSig Sauer P365XL PistolShadow Systems MR920 Combat Optic Cut Semi-Automatic Pistol 9mm Luger 4.01″ Threaded Barrel 15-RoundSpringfield Armory Hellcat Pro OSP Semi-Automatic Pistol
Grate article you got please check out this
Buy lsd gel tabs
Dispensary near me open | Sunnyside Dispensary ,Our qualities are very plain. We concur that any individual (old enough) who needs and appreciates clinical pot ought to be furnished with top-quality medications, no matter what their capacity to track down a protected, legitimate dispensary.
Buy fine labs
Buy Muhab Med Carts
Buy Sour patch 500mg
Buy FroStix disposable
Buy Dripp Labs disposable
Buy Tosenia
Buy Rick Simpson Oil RSO
Buy kaws bar disposable
Buy UMO by pyntree
Buy Quagen Lean Codeine
Buy pyntree cart
Buy Akorn Lean CODEINE
Psychedelic research is still in its infancy, Molly Crockett, PhD, the study’s senior author and an assistant professor of psychology at Yale University in Connecticut, told Healthline.
https://420suppliesshop.com/index.php/product/buy-crystal-meth-online/