Texas church shooter Devin Patrick Kelley

The man who murdered at least 26 churchgoers and wounded dozens more in Sutherland Springs, Texas today has been identified as Devin Patrick Kelley. Kelley lived in nearby Comal County, Texas not far from Sutherland Springs.

According to mediaite.com, Kelley…

graduated from New Braunfels High School (which just over 30 miles away from Sutherland Springs) and he served in the US Air Force. He allegedly taught a Bible Study class at a nearby church in 2013. Reports have also surfaced that his Mother-in-law owns a Sutherland Springs P.O. box, but that is unconfirmed.

Accoring to CBS News,

The shooting suspect has been identified as 26-year-old Devin Patrick Kelley, CBS News has learned from federal law enforcement sources.

Kelley is a former U.S. Air Force member who served from 2010 to 2014. He was dishonorably discharged and court martialed in May 2014, CBS News has learned.

Federal law enforcement sources say the suspect used an AR-15 type rifle, CBS News justice and homeland security correspondent Jeff Pegues reports.

A law enforcement official confirmed that the gunman is deceased. He was shot after a car chase with police, but it’s unclear if he shot himself or if he was shot by police, CBS News’ senior investigative producer Pat Milton reports.

If the report of a dishonorable discharge is correct, that would make Kelley a prohibited person and his firearms were owned illegally.

During a press conference now under way in Stockdale, Texas, authorities confirmed that 26 are dead, not including Kelley. Another 20 were wounded and are being treated.

They said Kelley was dressed in “full combat gear” and used a Ruger “AR-15 type assault rifle” which he dropped when locals opened fire on him as he exited the church. They confirmed the earlier report that he was found dead in his vehicle of a gunshot wound, but do not yet know if it was self-inflicted or the result of fire from law enforcement officers or locals.

 

 

196 COMMENTS

    • Correct me if I’m wrong but a DD is basically like a felony conviction.

      What new laws would stop someone who is breaking the law just being in possession of a gun?

      • Yup, it’s a disqualifying category on a 4473. I’m also rather interested in where this particular scumbag got his gun. Something smells to high heaven.

        • “I’m also rather interested in where this particular scumbag got his gun.”

          How about he owned it *before* his DD?

        • If the perp checked no on the form, and the nics database doesn’t talk to the Air Force DD database, he could have easily walked out of the store with Ruger in hand no (further) questions asked.

          Expecting a mass shooter to be honest in a gun store is expecting too much.

        • If the local news and Texas Rangers are correct in saying the psycho started shooting outside and then moved inside, it seems like an armed parishioner or two could have capped him right inside the door. I wonder if this church was one that prohibits its congregants from carrying.

          Also, the universal lesson of every mass shooting still holds true: The government will not be there to save you when bullets start flying. There is no way to change that simple fact.

        • The commiecrats are not interested in saving lives. Only pushing gun control to control us. Let’s all refuse to comply When Michael Bloomberg ditches his armed thugs people might respect him more.

        • Looks like the perp lied on his 4473. Bought the gun in 16 at a big box. Listed his address as in CO.

          Looks like the 4473 needs some work.

        • Law enforcement officials are saying he bought the gun from an Academy Sports & Outdoors in April of ’16. He also had a domestic abuse charge and child assault charge on his record, which also should have been disqualifiers.

        • The killer received a “Bad Conduct Discharge.”
          ATF form 4473 line: g. Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?

          From the VA at: https://va.org/forms-of-military-discharge/

          There are three types of punitive discharges:
          1. Bad Conduct Discharge
          This discharge can be imposed by a special court or general court. It is given as part of a court punishment to enlisted personnel only. Officers cannot receive this discharge. It is often given for conviction of:
          absent without leave
          drunk on duty
          driving while under the influence
          adultery
          disorderly conduct
          bad checks
          2. Dismissal
          When you are an officer you can be dismissed from military service. This discharge can be imposed by a special or general court and is often enforced alongside the maximum punishment as listed by the Manual for Courts Martial. It is an officer version of a bad conduct discharge.
          3. Dishonorable Discharge
          This type of discharge is the worst anyone in the military can receive. It can only be given by a general court-martial for the highest of offenses which are often accompanied by a prison sentence in a military prison.

      • “Section 922(g)(6) of the GCA makes it unlawful for persons who have been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions to receive or possess firearms.” From ATF.gov

        • What does that section say about Bad Conduct Discharge, which is reportedly what this individual received, not a Dishonorable Discharge?

        • @Jonathan Houston

          Even if a bad conduct discharge isn’t a disqualification, you’d think that because it was based on a domestic violence incident it would have been.

      • Yep…DD is the equivalent of a felony for purposes of possessing a firearm…so this clown was already in violation of existing gun laws before he fired a shot. So yeah, lets pass some more laws that criminals aren’t going to pay any attention to, but restrict the law-abiding.

        • It’s already fairly illegal to kill someone, let alone a lot of someone’s. Doesn’t matter what you use, it’s illegal. So, he broke the law possessing the gun. He broke the law taking it into a church without their authorization. He broke the law shooting a bunch of people, so yes let’s pass more laws that will only impact honest law abiding people! Makes perfect sense to me.

        • A felony is a sentence of one year and one day or more. This killer was sentenced to 12 months. While his conviction for assaulting his wife and child would disqualify him from ever possessing a firearm under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9) “The Lautenberg Amendment, assuming he was represented by counsel, a conviction by court martial does not apply: “Qualifying Conviction” under 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9) “The Lautenberg Amendment.

          “The amendment [18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(9)] only applies to a qualifying conviction. A qualifying conviction consists of two elements; (1) a misdemeanor domestic violence crime, and (2) a conviction.
          First, a misdemeanor domestic violence crime is an offense that is a misdemeanor under federal or state laws. The crime must include the use or attempted use of physical force, or the threatened use of a deadly weapon. The criminal act is considered domestic violence when the offender is the current spouse, the former spouse, the parent, or the guardian of the victim. The offender can be someone who shares a common child with the victim, cohabitates or used to cohabitate with the victim, or is similarly situated to a spouse, parent, or guardian of the victim.
          Second, the offender must be convicted of a domestic violence crime through any of the
          following: a state court, federal court, special court-martial, or a general court-martial. However, a conviction does not include convictions from a summary court martial, Article 15 non-judicial punishment, deferred prosecution or diversion in a state or federal court, or convictions that are later set-aside or expunged.”
          http://usacac.army.mil/sites/default/files/documents/sja/lautenberg.pdf

          The killer was not “discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions.”
          The killer received a “Bad Conduct Discharge.” ATF form 4473 line: g. Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?
          From the VA at: https://va.org/forms-of-military-discharge/
          There are three types of punitive discharges:
          1. Bad Conduct Discharge
          This discharge can be imposed by a special court or general court. It is given as part of a court punishment to enlisted personnel only. Officers cannot receive this discharge. It is often given for conviction of:
          absent without leave
          drunk on duty
          driving while under the influence
          adultery
          disorderly conduct
          bad checks
          2. Dismissal
          When you are an officer you can be dismissed from military service. This discharge can be imposed by a special or general court and is often enforced alongside the maximum punishment as listed by the Manual for Courts Martial. It is an officer version of a bad conduct discharge.
          3. Dishonorable Discharge
          This type of discharge is the worst anyone in the military can receive. It can only be given by a general court-martial for the highest of offenses which are often accompanied by a prison sentence in a military prison.

    • It’s right there on the ATF form 4473 question 11g. “Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces in dishonorable conditions? Yes/No”

    • Look at this dudes face. You can totally tell he’s a freakin weirdo and nutjob. Whenever I meet creeps like this in real life I’m always super suspicious and ask them all kinds of questions until they get nervous and leave. Too bad there isn’t a way we can lock up people who have stupid faces like this loser.

        • Oh heres another proud Christian USAF terrorist, tell us something about the nearly defenseless folks you blew to smithereens in their home (including of course women and children and the elderly)

      • Hank is the typical school yard bully, if folks dont look like he thinks they should look he presumes to harass them, and now with the big bully Gump in charge bullying everyone he can get his tweets on jerks like Hank feel perfectly justified to be the jerks they truly are : D

        • Hank’s right. I was at an outdoor auctions, and this weird guy was “bothering” me. He’s just ‘weird.” I can’t explain it, I just know the guy makes my radar go up. So then about 3 weeks later, at another auction, he tried to grab the gun that a lady was carrying in a calf holster. She and her husband both drew on this jerk, and held him until the cops arrived. The judge let the guy go, because he was a veteran or I don’t know, maybe thought he was playing a weird prank. I still see the guy, and he’s still weird. But next I see him, I’m going to start asking him questions.

      • If anyone became super suspicious about me and began pelting me with questions such that I became nervous and departed, I would consider THAT person to be the creep and nut job.

      • A dishonorable discharge can only be given in a General Court Martial. But the panel and judge can give a Bad Conduct in a general. A BCD does not make for a prohibited person under the 1968 GCA.

    • Interesting that so far no one has commented on WHY he was dishonorably discharged. Apparently that is something that is not easy to get from the Air Force.

      How long until we discover he was under some sort of psychiatric care or drugs and was a depressed loner who could not get along with others?

      It is so annoying when the news jumps right to the bloody shirt waving and doesn’t go immediately for background that doesn’t fit their anti-gun narrative.

    • Reports I’ve read indicated it was a Bad Conduct Discharge after a court martial. A BCD wouldn’t prevent gun possession but the BCD was for smacking a kid around and as such, he was convicted of a domestic violence charge which DOES preclude lawful gun possession.

      We will just have to see which report is accurate. Either way, it sounds like he was prohibited from gun possession.

    • USAF is the biggest terrorist organization in the history of the world so it makes sense… also more civilians slaughtered in the name of the cult of Jesus corpse than any other so… how bout a registry for Christians and a Christian ban on immigration!?: D

    • I’ve read that he received a Bad Conduct Discharge, which is obviously not good, but not as bad as a Dishonorable Discharge. The latter, worse type is what would render him a prohibited possessor under federal law. The Bad Conduct Discharge would not, itself, bar him from legally possessing a firearm.

  1. It took me a moment or two, but I figured out what is off about the photo. (aside from the fact it is the killer) I can’t see his ears, not one ear is visible in the photo.

  2. Several media outlets are reporting the perpetrator received a Dishonorable Discharge from the USAF in 2014.

    Fun fact: The Gun Control Act of 1968 makes any service member who receives a Dishonorable Discharge a prohibited person.

  3. Anyone want to bet he was on (or had been on) antidepressants? Too many people in this country are dependant on antidepressants or have children whose problems they “solve” with medication. There were lots of people with guns when I was growing up, but the mass shootings only started when we replaced family, country, community, and God with the Internet and antidepressants.

    I’m not saying we need to outlaw antidepressants — I’m sure they do help a lot of people and they don’t turn every user into a mass killer. But the more people who are put on meds to deal with their issues, the more mass killings we have … and given how many of the “important people” in society (or their family members) are on meds themselves, there’s NO motivation to look into this apparant link.

    If you want to preserve your second ammendment rights in the face of these mass killings, you need to start examining the reasons why mass shootings have become a weekly occurence in the last few decades. Antidepressants are the most logical place to start.

    • Actually we DO need to outlaw antidepressants, because: A) They are not antidepressants, no such medication truly exists, and B) The side effects and changes in brain chemistry are brutal and permanent. The beginning of treatment, changes in dosage, and the sudden cessation of taking these meds, and so called anti-anxiety drugs can cause psychotic breaks and severely violent reactions.

      • Which med school did you graduate from? I don’t like antidepressants or anti anxiety meds but I do prescribe them when therapy is not enough… lucky for you you don’t know anyone witht that severe depression or anxiety.

        • Lucky for you you’re not my doctor. It would behoove you to read something on the subject not written by the manufacturers or handed to you by the drug reps. Having the authority to write scrip does not make you an expert on pharmacopoeia.

        • you’re right, I think it’s his med school training that does that. I’m no fan of the mind altering pharma but I also realize that there are cases where there is no other recourse, and even that recourse isn’t going to be enough. I would like to see some long term studies on all the most used anti-anxiety/depression drugs. Problem is that takes time.

      • Many of the details you described cover instances of people taking WAY over the required dosage or completely ignoring warnings and misusing anti-depressants.

        While I would agree if you said antidepressants are over-prescribed in lieu of actual mental heath treatment, they do have a place.

        During a particularly low point in my life, I was prescribed a small dose of an SSRI (I was apprehensive and agreed to only use the minimum amount I could) and a referral for CBT. I truly believe the SSRI took the edge off my anxiety enough to allow me to benefit from the CBT and get through it all. I hope you never feel this bad, but if you do, you’ll likely be singing a very different tune.

        Definitely gotta follow the doctor’s orders for tapering off them though… cold turkey makes you feel TERRIBLE.

        • I have been and continue to be plagued with depression most of my adult life. Yes, many times to the point of entertaining a final exit. Cold logic insists that we all die sometime, the insanity of ignoring that every day in order to function in this society should and often does drive people to desperate lengths. That you were given a very small dose, and my have been within the roughly 3% that found SSRI’s effective through typically the side effects is great, I’m happy for you. A few minutes research will uncover some of the truth about these drugs and the billions the manufacturers have spent putting them on the market and keeping them there in spite of their own studies to the contrary. Most are banned in the EU or extremely tightly regulated in their use. Anyway, just my opinion.

        • Yes, it is just your opinion, but to expand your opinion and say these should be banned is just wrong. No one is forcing pills down your throat but to say these should be banned when they have likely saved lives is hypocritical given the topic of the original post.

          “A few minutes research…”

          This is the problem – real research doesn’t take a few minutes and is not limited to a Google search.

    • All democrats, (Commiecrats in reality), are depressed after they elected a communist president, twice no less, and the would have been, third term Communist lost it for them!

      We dont need gun comtrol, we need ALL democrats to be prohibited from ever having guns!

    • Anti depressants give me the shits and I couldn’t get a hard on, and when I did my girl feind said “ouch”, I quit using them when I found that Meth they make out of bug spray and fix a flat

    • You nailed it HAPAX! MEDICATION every time (almost)
      This is common thread on almost all mass shootings. Someones “wiring” has to be pretty jacked up to do something like this. I believe that this fact has been muffled in the media. Big Pharma money in anti-depressants and anti-psychotic meds.
      I have seen it in my own family, both my parents got put on something pretty heavy when going through their divorce and they were never the same people to say the least. I have seen it in other people as well.
      These drugs are most likely more responsible for mass shootings than the guns being used. A gun is just a tool. Albeit a deadly one. (Like a truck)

    • Texas DPS said a local resident (with his own rifle ) engaged the shooter that had an AR15 . The shooter left at that point.

      • If true, it is a Pyric victory since the damage was already done. If you don’t have armed security present it isn’t any different from waiting for the police to respond . That is why my [LCMS] Pastor made it known that he doesn’t object to armed parishoners.

        • Actually, we do not know what his plans were after this attack. Most of these attackers who want to die stay until law enforcement arrives. There is a very good chance that the guy intended to either flee – or to attack more people at another location. If he did have plans to kill more people this citizen surely saved many lives.

        • True, if he was wearing a mask he might have thought he could evade arrest. He did pick a remote area to target.

        • Rev:

          His future intentions will forever be inknown. What is known is that 26 people are dead. While it is gratifying to know that he was stopped by an armed citizen before the law enforcement arrived on scene it not a good guy with gun stopping a bad guy with a good. It is what the anti-submarine warfare community calls a revenge kill off of a flaming datum.

      • “Texas DPS said a local resident (with his own rifle ) engaged the shooter that had an AR15 .”

        2 of the (current) 26 total dead were outside the church, unclear if either of those two engaged the murderer in a firefight.

        We likely have true heroes here…

        • According to the Sheriff, the gunman started shooting at the church from outside, then moved around to the entrance, continuing to shoot before entering. So it is possible if not likely that these were his two first victims.

  4. How in God’s name did he get an AR-15 with a Dishonorable Discharge which automatically denies your right even own a firearm?

    • 3 words, Glen. Fast and Furious.

      When the president and ag are dealing guns illegally anybody, regardless of record, can get a gun.

      • Antifa black widow? From reports the guy was in deep with that stuff…kind of odd that wifey would be ignorant he was staking out this location far in advance, that he was proclaiming his intentions in the days before…et cetera.

    • Texas allows private transfers of firearms to state residents. Unless Texas gives private citizens access to its prohibited persons data base there would be no way for a private seller ro know that he is selling to a prohibited person.

      Pro tip: if you don’t know the person don’t sell to hIm.

      • Pro tip #2. If a seller demands to see a “Permit to purchase” they can shove their used POS gun up their 4th point of contact.

      • If the shooter was in fact a prohibited person, seller can be traced, they will get sued and cleaned out.
        I would only sell/trade to a gunshop or FFL, the risk selling to anyone else is not worth it.
        The extra $50 to $200 from a private sale is gone with the first attorney appointment.

        • I don’t kno about them getting sued and cleaned out. I traded a pistol to a guy and he wound up shooting his girlfeinds other boyfeind, didnt kill him tho. I thought ” oh shit, my tits in a wringer” but no, Cops never ask me nuttin bout it. Mite be diff if the guy woulda died?

        • Or supplied by the CIA. There’s a hundred million of the things out there, it does not really matter how he got it because:
          1) There’s no way to restrict access realistically with so many uncontrolled rifles
          2) There’s no way so many rifles will ever be controlled.
          3) Numbers 1 & 2 are good things, and likely the reason the guy was caught so quickly (it seems possible/likely he was himself engaged by a privately owned AR15, since detectives said a ‘rifle’ was used to stop him)

          What matters is
          1) That he met his judgement (check)
          2) That his motives are discerned on the off-chance he was in cahoots with others to do more harm (this was antifa’s big, bloody Revolution Weekend after all, and the guy appears to be a sympathizer & militant atheist)
          3) That the survivors and their families are comforted & cared for as best we can

    • Most likely he owned it before the DD. AFAIK they do not come around to your house and collect your guns after the discharge, At that point you are local LEO’s problem.

      • To the NRA and NSSF…apparently so. I wonder if LaPierre is gonna come out and say hi-cap mags convert a semi-auto into a machine gun & ask the ATF to declare them Title II firearms under the NFA?

        • Remember that gun control only hinders law abiding people. Criminals don’t give a crap about gun laws or gun free zones. Constitutional carry should be law in all 50 states, including New York.

    • I think this was one of them. I’ve noticed a trend in trolls dissapearing after these events… because I think some of them are the perpetrators.

    • OK, let me try…

      You see all of the white christian males murdering everyone…I can’t, my brain hurts if I try.

  5. I watched the Governor of Texas and the the rest of the blast of hot air where basically nothing was said except one thing. He was dressed completely in black.
    Hmmmmm now who else was it who dressed in black.
    Besides Johnny Cash.
    Was he Antifa?

    • If he was antifa then the media will bury this story. That kind of information isn’t convenient for the democrats and the left.

    • Dont start the antifa noise. ANTIFA are all young people and college students. I think teaching bible study and having a military record goes against most antifa values.

        • Except that only happened in your head, not in the real world. Wife was leaving him and her mom was supporting her in that, and the mom went to this church.

          So no, not antifa, not leftist, but that was a good try, really, love the lying within only a few hours. I deny your reality and replace it with my own. Good talk.

          Got my troll mojo back.

        • And yet major news sources report an antifa link. So your enemedia Is only right when demonizing ofwg gun owners?

        • Breitbart and infowars are not news. You could look at his facebook page litterally an hour ago, and nope, not leftist. Of course, Facebook edited when they triggered him to do this to further their gun banning goal.

          So use that, he was assigned this attack by his lord and savior, Mark Zuckerberg. Go with that one.

        • Don, you dummy, his facebook overlords edited his page to add all of the pro-christian white guy links. He used to be a leftist antifa member.

          Actually the reason he was DD’d was because he was a muslimist jihadi, yeah, and he’s not really a white guy at all, he’s an anchor baby from Mexico, AND Pakistan, and he was inserted here to be triggered by Mark Zuckerburg, another plant, just like his cell leader Barak Obama. Yeah, and, and, yeah, and he’s a hippie, and he went to starbucks on the way, see that proves it, and, yeah, he bought all his tactical gear off of Amazon, yeah, another Seattle commie, I mean, muslim, I mean, both yeah. That proves it.

          Or he was another murdering douchebag, who happened to be a white guy.

        • Plus, up above didn’t you say that it was because of anti-depressants or some such, because not only do you have his super secret identity documents and his journal, you have his prescription history. So you should have seen this coming. Shame Don, for shame.

          Trolling is fun

        • Sorry Leroy, you are sadly mistaken, once again.

          This list comes directly from the guy’s Linkedin page:

          Causes devin cares about:
          Animal Welfare
          Arts and Culture
          Children
          Civil Rights and Social Action
          Environment
          Health
          Human Rights

          Also his Facebook page showed he was a member of several atheist groups.

          Progressive causes, atheist, and dressed in black ? Sounds like your typical Antifa.

        • Animal Welfare-only antifa can love animals

          Arts and Culture-only democrats love art, or culture

          Children-only commies like children-and then shoot them

          Civil Rights and Social Action-because its not like Lincoln was a Republican or anything

          Environment- Teddy Roosevelt was a famous commie liberal

          Health-yeah, only democrats like health

          Human Rights- not like the fostering of democracy in the middle wasn’t a huge thing from 2001 and 2008, you know, the democrats

          You make it really easy when you say such stupid things, but you do you.

        • Amen LE ROY. You and the rest of the progs keep on believing that CNN is real and Breitbart is a bad trip.

    • And he was wearing a mask. Who else dresses in all black and violently attacks people while wearing a mask?

      Supposed to be November 4th. Maybe the time change messed him up?

  6. Not a single time, when the media has said a shooter was wearing a bullet-proof vest, were they correct! When the authorities reported a “ballistic” vest, I am betting they mean a load-bearing vest, merely for magazines. Don’t know why that kind of fake news bugs me…

    • Well if a private citizen killed him that would be something to keep the gun control vultures at a distance. Not to mention an unalloyed righteous act in itself.

    • In one of the videos I watched the eye witness being interviewed seemed to think the good guy scored a hit just before the killer dropped his rifle and fled the scene.

  7. “I’m glad you’re dead”…Joker. All of us law abiding gunowners need to keep the “this bastard couldn’t own a gun” narritive going!!!

    • As an argument pointing out that gun control laws do not work, I’m with you.

      As a chink in the “…shall not be infringed.” part of the Second Amendment, not so much.

      “If you concede that the government the Second Amendment was intended to allow you to protect yourself from, should it turn to tyranny, has the authority to create, maintain and enforce lists of persons (NICS) who may not, in the opinion of that same government, exercise their natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms, how do you propose keeping your name off of those lists?” – Cliff Heseltine, (c) 2014. Quotation permitted with attribution.

  8. 1. Someone must have pinned his ears back.
    2. I bet that 50% of the population has been on antidepressants at one time or another. Don’t give them any ideas to limit guns to the public.

    • FWIW, it’s the perspective of the camera. It’s a very wide angle lens held very close to his face which is why you can’t see his ears.

    • I own a Ruger SR-556 carbine. It is real, not a clone. It is a VERY NICE rifle. It has NEVER shot anybody. Nor have I, even though I regularly point out to people that IMO there are people in this world who need to be shot.

      OTOH, had I been outside this church with my Ruger, even though I am neither Christian not Baptist, I would have done my very best with the help of my Ruger AR-type rifle to drop this sumbitch in his tracks.

    • Couldn’t be, Ruger AR-556 are relatively new, post FF. Either his wife fronted him, or he got it locally and no one did a check.

      I’m paranoid, and my LGS will do a 4473 for used transfer’s for $5, and give you a $10 credit, so for local sales I always do a transfer. But I buy/sell a gun a month, basically rent stuff while I play with it, although with the new depressed prices, that’s starting to get expensive. Before you could buy something, play with it for a few months and sell it for retail, now its like $50 even if its only for a few weeks.

      New Ruger MPR is pretty awesome for $550, heck saw a base AR556 for $399 on gun.deals

  9. So you get a DD, from the military. Does not mean that your hands automatically blown up if you touch a gun. So how are we going to stop this madness? Remember the neighbor across the church, grabbed his own gun, to chase the shooter off the property. Yep we need more gun control. (Not)

  10. He was stopped by a gun-carrying citizen.

    That will continue to be the most effective method for stopping these liberal criminals ( and yes, they’re all democrats ) until such time that teleportation of police officers becomes the norm.

    I hope the liberal bastard died in agony.

  11. I said no such thing,lol. Rave on though. Funny, never have known a Leroy could keep his mouth shut and his pants zipped, some things never change.

  12. Questions about the shooter:

    1) Did this man pass a background check?
    2) Is he in the NICS firearms background check database?
    3) If not, why not?
    4) Did he attempt to by a firearm from a dealer (by lying on the form) and fail the background check?
    5) If he did, why was he not prosecuted?

    This guy may have got his gun via private transfer – in which case we are going to see a push for expansion of NICS check to private sales. On the other hand, if he passed a background check, then we can and should argue that expanding a broken system is stupid. If he attempted to buy a gun by lying on the 4473 form, why wasn’t he prosecuted? One thing is clear: Gun control failed.

    • 1) Did this man pass a background check? Probably not
      2) Is he in the NICS firearms background check database? Probably, DD gets automatically added
      3) If not, why not? Would be
      4) Did he attempt to by a firearm from a dealer (by lying on the form) and fail the background check? Even if you lie, NICS will still catch you
      5) If he did, why was he not prosecuted? No one is prosecuted for failed 4473

    • We have as yet no information except that he was a DD. We do not know why, we do not know when.

      It is possible, even likely, that he owned this rifle before the DD. As I posted earlier, the Air Force does not come to your home after the DD and confiscate all your weapons. They probably don’t even notify local LEOs that you are back home and had a DD, which would still require the local LEOs to get a search warrant before searching your home for “prohibited” weapons.

      • Socialists/Communists, actually. A disturbingly common thread among these mass shooters is that belief system. This guy’s social media strongly suggests that, he too, was among the true believers of social justice at any cost.

        • We should ban Jihadi’s and Alt-nuts, because all of these atrocities with people running down crowds with their cars in the US are by Jihadi’s and alt-right wingnuts, and drunk people, can’t forget the drunks, or teenagers texting, ban them all.

          In the recent past, mass shootings in churches have been by a black guy who’s a Jihadi, a white alt-right racist nutter, and this guy, who was locked up by the air force for 12 months and booted for assualt, who was a sunday school teach.

          What they have in common, murder. That’s it, and enough. Any new laws banning “blah, blah, blah” are not necessary, murder is pretty damn illegal, has been for a few years, you may have noticed that killing people isn’t a modern concept hippies created, goes back quite a way.

          Edit: I guess another thing in common is they’re men, so…ban dudes too.

  13. I see no roll marks on his AR .. meaning its probably a parts gun made with an 80% lower he finished himself. No restriction against anyone purchasing an 80% lower… but finishing it and owning it was federal offense for a Dishonorable Discharge.

    • Sort of odd how many random folks on here & elsewhere are suggesting it was a ‘ghost gun’ based on nothing even though the make/model is quite well documented (even early on for one of these shootings). I didn’t hear suggestions that Paddock was using such items a few weeks back, just the bump stocks that were similarly homed-in on in an inexplicable manner.

  14. Yeah, that’s one weird looking dude. No ears, says he was 26, but looks more like about 14. Doesn’t look like he’s ever had to shave in his life. Weird!

  15. Training and arming willing private citizens and eliminating “gun free zones” is the only way to respond to these crimes and protect ourselves. If you wait for the police or government to protect you, you will probably die. When the lead starts flying only you can protect yourself and others.

  16. Two days ago JWT argued that that the pepole who drew their weapons at the Thornton Walmart had not met the justifiable use of force critetia. If they did not then the armed citizen who came out to engage the shooter had even less justification. He was not on the premises, was not under direct threat and in fact placed himself in jeopardy and therefore gave up his right to self defebse even in a stand your ground state. Therefore his actions were illegal under JWT’s strict definition of imminent threat of death or grevious bodily harm. Perhaps JWT would like to rethink his position.

    • “Two days ago JWT argued that that the pepole who drew their weapons at the Thornton Walmart had not met the justifiable use of force critetia”

      WTF are you taking about?

        • you are within the law to act in defense of another person, provided the threat meets the criteria of opportunity, ability, jeopardy, etc…

        • Tyler:

          I agree but JW’s positon on Friday was that the people who drew their guns at the Thornton Walmart were wrong to do so because there was no direct threat to them. Were they not preparing to use force to protect the lives of others?

        • From the article: “JWT reckons that armed innocents should not remove their gun from their holster until they’re going to use it to shoot the bad guy or guys.”

          Homeslice shot the BG, apparently fatally too, so I’m not seeing what you’re getting at here since JWT didn’t say anyone gave up anything nor did he say anything that would suggest that the good guy in this situation guy anything wrong.

          JWT simply said that drawing your sidearm early isn’t a good idea in his opinion. Based on the article his opinion is that if you’re going to bring a gun into the equation it’s best to use it immediately. That would seem to be what this guy down in Texas did.

        • And that’s what the people at Walmart did. There was already a gun in play — the shooter’s. The fact that other customers put their weapons in play may be reason why the shooter left before inflictting more casuaites. Go back and read through the discussion that followed.

        • “And that’s what the people at Walmart did.”

          They shot the guy or at the guy?

          That incident took place a few miles from my house and I’ve not heard a single word about one of the CCW permit holders shooting at or hitting the guy. I heard a lot of BS from the cops that following those people around on CCTV cameras made their job harder but I haven’t heard anything about one of the CCW holders actually engaging the shooter in that case.

        • What happenned to the claim that 90%+ of DGUs do not involve firing a weapon because the attacker retreats when he believes his victim (s) have an armed response? Could it be that the shooter did exactly that and left the scene when saw that there were armed defenders? Or are we just trying to convince ourselves that guns have more utility then they actually do? You make the call.

        • I can’t forget what I never saw the first place. I did not write that article, but the quote from me in that article is fairly accurate, and it says absolutely nothing about whether or not the people at the Walmart where legally justified to draw their weapons. I don’t know the situation at Walmart so I can’t really say whether it was or not.
          The question put to me was one that RF and I have discussed many times. Do you draw and then wait for something else to happen, or try to communicate with them, or do you draw and fire? I draw in fire. Because I think that it is impossible for me to draw think intelligently communicate move and fire accurately.
          Try and avoid making up someone else’s words, and then arguing with them. It makes you look petty and unintelligent.

        • JW:

          Blame Robert, not me because I am not the only one who came away with the impression that you thought the people who drew were in error. Perhaps a good deal of the readership is unintelligent.

        • Be an adult and own up to your own mistakes. At no point anywhere in the article RF wrote does he say that I suggested that people had not met the criteria to draw their weapons. That was you. That was all you. You made that completely up and then you argued against it. Your argument that, “well, other people did it too” sounds like a guilty six year old.

  17. If he was indeed given a Bad Conduct discharge from the AF, then it sounds like the most actionable fallout from this incident will be closing the newly named “Bad Conduct Loophole”

    • Hmm… Should I call my congressman’s district director requesting the Congressman create a bill that adds “bad conduct discharge” after the signing of the law to prohibited persons and reopens the registry? Seems like it would be fun to turn around any “compromise” demands from the libs if he gets on it.

  18. Even if he’d only gotten a bad-conduct discharge, with a misdemeanor domestic violence conviction, he would’ve been disqualified per the Lautenberg Amendment to GCAof68.

    http://www.armystudyguide.com/content/army_board_study_guide_topics/military_justice/lautenberg-amendment.shtml

    Additionally, it’s heap bad juju to provide a gun to someone with such a conviction. I knew one dumbass private who strawman bought a Raven/Jennings/Potmetal Special .380 for a recently Lautenberged friend (who just had his own guns confiscated). Both of them caught felonies, with a special bonus for lying on a 4473.

  19. The $.64 question – what was the GGWG wielding? I’ve heard a lot of info about what the bad guy used – “Ruger AR-15 assult type rifle” but the good guy was using what has been described only as “a rifle”. Might it also have been an “AR-15…type” MSR or a Mini-14 (truck/trunk gun)?

    From the various reports I’ve seen it sounds like the GGWG scored a hit, the bad guy fled and bled out on his way to Hell. No LE involvement until after the shitbag reached ambient temperature.

  20. If we would just ban/destroy all ammo and firearms, the killing would stop. Is that about right? Or, maybe all the victims would be law abiding. Crazies are out there, they are real, anywhere they go is a potential killing field. Your choice, you have the right to be firearm free, exercise it. You have the right to be totally defenseless, exercise that right. You don’t need the government to mandate it. The people killed in all these situations had every reason to think they were safe in places they had a legal right to be. They were wrong. They were caught up in a war they did not know was being waged. The odds are getting better the war will get more intense. Some use the, “one in a million chance” argument. You can not know when that one chance will come up, or where.

  21. Apparently he was denied a Concealed Carry Permit because of the domestic violence conviction from his court martial. Interesting that the information on that didn’t make it into NICS. He was still able to pass a purchase background check.

  22. The important thing to note here is that, at least in this case, several armed parishioners could have saved many lives, perhaps as many as 20 or more. No one in that church seems to have had an available handgun for self-defense. All but heretical interpretations of the 5th Commandment allow — even demand — defense of self and loved ones from an aggressor. Beyond being armed, the citizens inside the church with guns should always practice head shots, not center of mass shots. This fellow was wearing body armor (as are many jihadis these days also) and handguns are simply not powerful enough to penetrate it. On the other hand, even a humble .38 in the temple or forehead…..

    • Has there been any actual confirmation of body armor or was he just wearing an assault type vest with pockets for his magazines?

  23. Just saying people, pay attention to the meds. Common thread.
    F….it. I’ll tell you what I really think. Sounds crazy though.
    The re-wiring of the brain opens pathways to demons………..I know, but that’s what I really think.
    PRAY…………….. A LOT

  24. I do wish EVERYONE would learn what an assault rifle is. It IS a weapon that has a select rate of fire, safe-semi-full auto. No unmodified AR is an assault weapon. To be very clear AR doesn’t stand for assault rifle. Every time someone uses the assault rifle reference it make it sound like they (the shooter) has a military weapon. This in turn leads to the fear of such rifles. GET A CLUE or don’t talk about what you know nothing of!

  25. This was a atheist motivated murder. He was a hate filled godless Christian hating bigot. And he was a socialist. He was like the Muslim terrorists. They both hate Christianity.

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