Rob Pincus and James Yeager on Open Carry: Don’t Go There by Dan Zimmerman | May 19, 2012 | 164 comments facebook twitter linkedin email [HTML1] Rob Pincus owns and operates ICE Training comments Michael says: May 19, 2012 at 13:41 There’s an ass-clown that I see open carrying every now and again at a coffee shop by my house. .38 snubbie, no thumb-break or any kid of retention on the holster. I’m pretty sure I could walk up to him and take his gun off him before he even knew what was going on. All open carry does is make you look like a clown. Reply bob says: May 19, 2012 at 14:02 Ok….. Reply Stephen says: May 19, 2012 at 14:36 Big red shoes and a red rubber nose make you look like a clown as well. Reply Michael says: May 19, 2012 at 16:04 Maybe I should suggest to him that he leave the .38 at home and get a red nose and some big floppy shoe instead… Or at least get a thumb-brake holster and a sturdier belt. Btw, if an Evil Doer sees you going into a store with a spendy revolver on your hip, that’s a good clue for them to watch where you park your car. Chances are if you’ve got an expensive revolver, you’ve got other expensive stuff in the car. And no, the fact that you have a gun on you while you’re 100 yards away and inside a store wont keep the stuff you left on the front seat of your car safe. Guns are just like anything else. If it’s expensive, don’t flash it around. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 18:45 Stephen, true… But not necessarily an “assclown”. Reply HAVE GUN says: May 19, 2012 at 13:42 I tend to agree. Once again, the debate is whether or not it is tactically better. For me that is not a concern. I don’t OC just because I don’t need the unwanted attention as OC is almost never done where I live. All that said, tomorrow I am going fishing, and will carry OC, just cause I can. Reply Mike2588 says: May 19, 2012 at 14:27 Just remember, don’t take anything on the boat that you aren’t willing to lose in the lake. Reply Gophernator says: May 19, 2012 at 15:07 All my guns were lost in the lake in an unfortunate boating accident. That’s what I tell anyone who asks. Reply Ralph says: May 19, 2012 at 15:24 This was no boat accident! APBTFan says: May 19, 2012 at 17:44 That’s a damn tragedy. LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 14:13 I’m going to sum up all comments that this article will get in one post just to save TTAG’s bandwidth; “You are an ass-clown if you don’t do things the way I do them”. Just the usual “I am all about freedom and laws, well – unless I find it questionable, then I’m not quite so much about freedom and laws” people will be posting. There, you can lock the comments now. Reply Stephen says: May 19, 2012 at 14:37 +1 TRUE THAT!!! Reply I_Like_Pie says: May 19, 2012 at 16:13 Amen – preach it. Pincus is not the end all for SD either. I suppose the owners of this site are expecting him to turn water into wine next. If I am on my tractor mowing my field I really don’t want to bother with an IWB carry gun for obvious reasons. Same for when I am hiking, fishing, and hunting. Because firearms, hard as it is to believe for GI Joe wanna-be idiots, can be used for other things than SD. Reply I_Like_Pie says: May 19, 2012 at 16:14 When I am in the city however….nobody knows that I am packing a firearm. No need to make the sheep crazy. Tom says: May 19, 2012 at 19:18 I agree that hand guns are used for more than SD. Actually, on a farm, a Ruger Single Six or Bearcat is not all that of a ridiculous weapon to bring along. Michael says: May 19, 2012 at 16:49 Um… I like pie, right there at the beginning of the video they mentioned that they weren’t talking about doing outdoorsy things like riding tractors and going fishing… Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 16:35 Or we could just go with the usual asking someone who is anti-OC to please provide every day data pertaining to someone who is OCing being targeted prior to a crime because they are an obstacle. Don’t hold your breath, they just sort of fade away after presented with such a request. Criminals are opportunistic and only want the path of least resistance. I bet if someone where to take the time to perform a non-bias test it would show that someone who is CC is far more likely to become part of a criminal situation than someone who is OCing. Logic tell us if a criminal sees someone OC outside a gas station they will either wait for them to leave or move on to somewhere else. Why the hell risk getting shot. If a criminal sees someone outside a gas station and perceived unarmed (CC) he might go ahead and do the deed cause the only one between him and the cashier is some unarmed dude. I know, logic hurts. They have no idea if the person OC is a cop, military or just a civilian. Cops come in all shapes and sizes so its not like most of us can spot a cop in off duty cloths. I OC 90% of the time. Why? I live in Georgia and the summers are muggy and hot and concealing ain’t exactly all that efficient when you don’t have extra clothing to help. I bet a lot of the people anti-OC live in cold weather states where its easy to have a jacket on. Reply Chaz says: May 19, 2012 at 16:58 data pertaining to someone who is OCing being targeted prior to a crime because they are an obstacle They might become the target of the crime. The bad guys just devise a plan to ambush the OC person and steal the gun. Reply Michael says: May 19, 2012 at 17:20 Or the Evil Doer notices that the OC dude has a spendy S&W and decides to go checkout the OC dude’s car while the OC dude is shopping. Kiss good bye to whatever you had in your car OC dude. LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 18:12 And you might get hit by 747 falling from the sky as you sleep in your bed. Put up or shut up. Provide data please. LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 18:13 And how does someone magically know which car belongs to the person OCing? And what data do you have to propose that someone who OC equals valuables in the car? I OC and don’t have anything worth stealing in my car. Once again, put up or shut up. Provide data please. LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 18:18 I’ve been OCing on 4 years and Ive never been the victim of opportunity nor has my vehicle ever been broken into. That is a fact. Lets see yours. I won’t hold my breath, but I will see if you have any facts or just more “But…But…But…” armchair commando tier 1 tactical explanation. Think I am full of crap? Prove it. I’ll wait patiently…. Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 18:37 As noted in the video, “freedom” isn’t the issue. Carrying a gun is something you should do for protection, not political attention. As Grant Cunningham has said, Political Activism for something you can already do is pretty weak… Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 18:54 I don’t carry mine OC for a political statement. Because if you are saying that if you are not doing it for political reasons then you are OK; a. you don’t convey that even by throwing in a one liner “And we don’t mean…” b. the people watching aren’t going to pick-up on that. You are simply adding more propaganda to the fire. I’ve always said the worst enemy of the 2A are its own advocates because these guys attack their own kind. Unless someone is breaking a law, going on the record with this regurgitated non-sense is nothing helping your brother, its just creating sub–cultures. What do you have to say now? Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 19:29 Same thing….. and, trying to hide behind a second amendment flag while doing something that has had a proven negative effect on gun rights and the imag of gun owners as responsible is ridiculous. “my kind” are people who carry guns for he defense of themselves or others. LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:07 Using California as a basis for your “negative impact” argument isn’t exactly fighting fair. Seriously. Talk about stacking the deck. You’ve taken a state that is rooted in anti-gun bafoonery and used that as the basis of your argument. Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 01:09 “stacked deck” Really? The deck is always stacked against ass-clownery… Me: “here is some evidence” You: “that doesn’t count” Me: “oh…” I’m out…… call me when actual logic is in play. ST says: May 19, 2012 at 14:54 Garbage video. Ill just state for the sake of clarity:THERE IS NO ONE UNIVERSAL STANDARD OF CARRY! For some people concealed carry is the best way to do things. For others, open carry is the best way to do things. For an example of one area where Open Carry -in an urban environment-makes sense, look at business security. If you run a shop which is open to the public like a gun store,gas station, or jeweler ,open carry serves two purposes. One, it serves as a deterrent for crooks looking at an easy robbery. Two, should a planned hit of the business take place time will be of supreme import.On the street there’s some minimal warning of a criminal attack about to happen. In a robbery, the first clue of bad tidings is when someone pulls a weapon. Life would be so much better if all these “tactical professionals” understood that one size does not fit all. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 18:38 So, explain who open carry is “better” for… I’m open to ideas. Also, if you thing a black powder rifle is “better” for some people, I’d be open to your ideas on how moden firearms don’t fit everyone… Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 18:57 Better and Best are opinion based, its when you try and pass one or the other off as superior or wron and don’t provide facts for those claims that you become part of the propaganda machine. Just like I ask everyone, provide hard data that shows CC is superior. Take any angle you want. Tactical, political, changes of being robbed, first targeted, etc etc. Pick ANY one and provide me hard data. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 01:14 Again, I submit California on the political basis…. you can cry “unfair” all you want… but that doesn’t change reality. Bub says: May 19, 2012 at 14:58 spot on. could not have said it any better than these guys. Reply Pale Horse says: May 19, 2012 at 15:33 James and Rob are 100% correct on this issue ……… period. Reply Mike says: May 19, 2012 at 16:15 FLAME DELETED Reply Tom says: May 19, 2012 at 16:20 They sort of do look ridiculous, now that you mention it. There are places and times for open carry. There are places and times for concealled carry. Use good judgement when and where. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 18:40 Examples? Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 18:59 100 degree weather. Please provide me an example of how I can conceal a G17 with a T-Shirt and shorts, or jeans. If your only answer is “Well use a smaller gun…” then you lose the debate. Not everyone is fortune enough to own multiple weapons. I’ll await your answer Rob. APBTFan says: May 19, 2012 at 20:41 I feel your pain LLARMS. Summers average 112° here in Phoenix. I struggled with the 1911 I initially bought but managed to save pennies till I could add something smaller. If you enjoy your G17 there are some really good deals on police trade-in Glocks. LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:09 I have more than one gun, it was just an example and a truth, not everyone can stash an armory of weapons. If I live in a state that stayed cold year round I would be CC year round simply by wearing everyday gear for that type of weather, aka a jacket. There are so many flaws in the anti-OC argument and when push comes to shove none of them can stand up to the challenge. Vader says: July 11, 2012 at 08:54 @LLARMS30813, I CC a G17 everyday. I live in Lower Alabama where we have triple digit heat, plus heat index, plus high humidity. Let’s just say it can get hot here in the summer months. I use a Kholster (www.kholster.com) IWB holster for my Glock 17 and carry it on me EVERY DAY. My work clothes are a polo shirt (tucked in) and blue jeans (or slacks depending on the pay planned). My weekends I am in cargo shorts and a t-shirt (usually untucked). If I am dressed, I am wearing my holster and weapon. I have been CC’ing this was for almost a year, and in that time I have only been called out once “if I was wearing a gun” and that was because I was bent over in a weird angle and the butt of the gun pulled my shirt out. I am not lean and mean, I am a little pudgy around the middle. I normally wear about a 34″ waist pants. For my holster, I go up to a 36″ and I wear an XL t-shirt (normal is L, but the little extra keeps me from printing). It can be done. I do it everyday. The trick is to take time, look at the clothes you are wearing and make sure there is just enough blouse in them to hide the weapon. Stant says: May 19, 2012 at 16:57 Video seem to me to be someone trying to sell me something. Remember folks caveat emptor always caveat emptor. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 18:41 Yes! Information is being sold. Cost: Zero American Dollars. Reply Stant says: May 19, 2012 at 22:07 I bet Amway salesmen just love to see you coming. Reply Stant says: May 19, 2012 at 22:17 More like opinions being peddled, but sorry I ain’t buying. Reply Stant says: May 19, 2012 at 22:19 More like opinions being peddled but sorry I ain’t buying. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 01:15 I did at least gain some of your time to consider the issue… I’ll take that as a win. The more people think about what they do with guns, the better off we all are. DrewN says: May 19, 2012 at 18:37 As someone who has had the cops called on me for staging a photo for my HS drama class in my own garage (seriously, whoever called it in called it “devil porn”. I shit you not.) I kinda, sorta agree with these guys. If we could roll back the clock 150 years and Jane Soccer-Mom wouldn’t call in the National Guard over a cap gun, I think open carry certainly has a valuable deterrence value. Nowadays though I’m positive it just causes more problems than it solves. This isn’t new either, sword canes became popular for a reason. Reply tdiinva says: May 19, 2012 at 18:52 Open carry in Virginia is a state Constitutional right so I protected from police harassment. The phrase I like to use for whether I will exercise my right is usual and customary. If I walk around Arlington, Virginia with my gun showing someone is probably going to get upset. I have done it in the park at night but there aren’t many people out to notice. If I am out in Warrenton nobody will bat an eyelash. They see guns all the time outside of Northern Virginia. I take the point that we are all Second Amendment ambassadors and we should exercise our rights in such a way that we teach people that law abiding citizens who carry are net plus for the community. The reason that people don’t get bent out of shape in the Valley or out West is that open carry is not unusual. The question is will open carrying normalize it or lead restriction. If the latter then I agree carry concealed but it not judicious use of open carry may expand the public’s acceptance of gun rights Reply Tom says: May 19, 2012 at 19:12 Actually, that is a good post. Walking around Indy open carrying and people will go nuts. Roaming around in a small town or rural area and nobody will care. A lot depends on where you are and what you are doing. Example, out on the farm and in the woods, I open carried a lot. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 19:31 If you want to educate people about gun rights, try standing in the park with pamphlets. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:11 Ah, more “do what I say or its stupid” fallacy. Stay classy! Reply Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 01:15 It’s “stay thirsty” now… keep up. Phil says: May 19, 2012 at 18:53 There is NO reason for any citizen to open carry a weapon in today’s society. This is not the Wild West nor the OK Corral. For those insecure enough that they feel they MUST carry a weapon, then carry it concealed and be done with it. You can have your weapon, and don’t need to strut around town flashing it to everyone. No need to disturb or upset the rest of society just because you feel inadequate without a gun hanging off your hip. Besides, you just might run into a real criminal that will kick your butt with your own gun one day. At least concealed, you might maybe hopefully have a chance of getting off a shot. If you can hit anything under stress, that is. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 19:01 Your argument holds no weight. Having the presumption someone who OCs is doing it to show off, make a political statement, or be a cowboy just shows how simple minded you are. As far as encountering a criminal, by all means provide me examples or data where someone who was OCing is worse off than someone CCing. I doubt you will or more importantly can. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 01:43 http://www.annarbor.com/news/crime/unarmed-man-attempts-to-rob-emu-student-carrying-holstered-gun/ Reply twency says: May 19, 2012 at 21:32 “For those insecure enough that they feel they MUST carry a weapon…” Hmm, I think you’re on the wrong website. Perhaps you meant to visit bradycampaign.org? Or you’re just trolling… Reply tdiinva says: May 20, 2012 at 00:21 The Wild West was wild because it was “untamed” not because people walked around with guns. A citizen was safer in Dodge City Kansas than he was in New York City, Boston or Philadelphia.. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 19:03 Can someone tells me why cops don’t CC? I mean if its a superior way to carry, surely this will be an easy question. (Also don’t even mention them being “trained” – I think anyone who has been shooting for any amount of time has learned that most cops qualify once a year and never pick up that gun again to shoot it) Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 19:35 So… If you have flashy red and blue lights on your car, I totally see your point. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:14 In other words, you don’t have an answer? I’ve asked some key questions in this discussion, you have yet to tactical any of them. Do you or do you not have data that proves CC is superior than OC? Do you or do you not have data that shows data that OCing has resulted in more bodily harm, death, or “target first” situations? Why don’t cops CC if its superior method of carrying? Reply Not Too Eloquent says: May 19, 2012 at 23:55 Relax much?? Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 13:47 Choosing ingnore my answers and reposting the same questions/comments in other threads doesn’t make my answers magically disappear… If you have a uniform on and are paid to engage bad guys, OC is a completely different thing…. But something tells me you wouldn’t understand that. APBTFan says: May 19, 2012 at 19:11 Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness. If open carry trips your trigger then by all means do so. If concealed carry is your preferred method, go for it. I personally feel a mix of conceal and open carry is a wonderful thing. Keep the bastards on their toes. If a couple of ne’er do wells case a gas station but happen to see someone at the pumps or in the store open carrying and decide to take their business elsewhere then score one for the good guys. If a couple of ne’er do wells commence with a robbery and one or both of them gets shot by a CCW’er then fine, score another for the good guys. Word gets around. Personally I’ve open carried but didn’t like the fact that someone paying attention to me could invariably find an opportunity to snatch my heater. I now carry concealed every time I leave the house. I think some folks get into a “black and white” mindset in regards to self-defense training. Although the “experts” bring a lot to the table I don’t feel their methods are the panacea some folks think they are. Judging by the almost daily reports of DGU’s I see the average haven’t-been-to-a-high-end-class gun owner is managing to do just fine when the chips are down. Am I bashing training and those who take it? Not at all. I think it’s an outstanding thing to do but I also don’t see the average gun owner being functionally inferior without it. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 19:41 All thing being equal, that is a well articulated opinion…. The problem is, I’m not a neutral bystander, I am a professional teacher and consultant that makes a living providing the best information I can in regard to personal defense. Gun types, techniques, method of carry…. Reply APBTFan says: May 19, 2012 at 20:53 And so you should! Your services and advice are to the betterment of every shooter under your tutelage. One of these days I hope to save the pennies for professional training. Reply Dex says: May 19, 2012 at 19:28 Rob Pincus, I like your style. First you decisively end any justification for carrying the stupid sub-compact 1911s, then you decisively end any justification for carrying openly. Both thorny pet peeves in my opinion 🙂 Nothing irritates me more than people using their firearms as a political statement. I am strongly supportive of the 2nd amendment, but believe in being the “quiet professional type”, humbly practicing your right while being aware of those that seek to infringe upon it and make lawful gun owners look like idiots. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 19:37 Thanks! Reply Michael says: May 19, 2012 at 19:33 “I’ve been OCing on 4 years and Ive never been the victim of opportunity nor has my vehicle ever been broken into.” I’ve not been carrying at all for 43 years and I’ve never had my car broken into or been the victim of a crime. ;-). “And how does someone magically know which car belongs to the person OCing?” Easy, they watch parking lots and see who gets out of what car. Or they see you with a spendy gun and watch three days in a row at 8.00AM at Starbuck’s and so they watch you leave, see what car you got into, and show up a little earlier the next day… Look, a couple of my cousins used to rip people off back in the day and I’m just telling you what they did. They were quite successful thieves and as far as we know the police never had a clue of what they were up too. Thieves look for people with expensive stuff and then they track down where that person might have more expensive stuff and see if they can take it. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:30 “I’ve not been carrying at all for 43 years and I’ve never had my car broken into or been the victim of a crime. ” That was my point. Thanks for backing me up. The whole “what if…” argument is rooted in playing on peoples emotions. What if you got hit by a 747 when you woke up tomorrow… What if you wear suspenders AND a belt…. Blah blah blah. I have asked repeatedly for someone to share some data or prove the whole anti-OC thing. Not one single person yet has stepped up to the plate. All these guys are capable of are poisoning the minds of people who don’t know any better or more propaganda. Reply JD says: May 19, 2012 at 20:34 Regarding Law Enforcement Carry, that’s a two sided coin. 1: Generally speaking, uniformed officers simply can not conceal all the crap on their duty belts therefore it would be impossible to carry their primary firearm concealed. Radio, cuffs, Taser, batton, magazines etc. It’s a lot of gear. That being said, many still carry a back up gun or “BUG” concealed. 2: Plain Clothes officers carry concealed a vast majority of the time . Sure there are exceptions in hotter climates etc. but a majority of plain clothes officers I’ve seen carry concealed. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:24 If I carry a gun, 2 mags, mini-flashlight, small knife, cell phone, wallet what makes you think being a non-cop doesn’t qualify me for the same thing? I probably varies from city to city but in Georgia people would be more strung out if they saw you printing a concealed weapon than just openly carrying it. People who are anti-OC are nothing more than like the people who want stricter gun laws. Since when have gun laws been honored by criminals? After you answer than when was the last time you saw or even heard about a criminal OCing a pistol, no less in a HOLSTER. Reply Rabbi says: May 19, 2012 at 20:48 Rob and James –both EXCELLENT instructors–have offered excellent advice here. One thing that I did not see in the discussion is open carry is a neon light that says “shoot me first” or “steal by gun by assaulting me from behind.” David Kenik Armedresponsetraining.com Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:16 “One thing that I did not see in the discussion is open carry is a neon light that says “shoot me first” or “steal by gun by assaulting me from behind.” We’ll discuss it as soon as you PROVE it occurs. This is like the 4th or 5th time I have asked someone stating this or show us some data on this. NONE HAVE ANSWERED. Are you going to answer or slink away as well? Reply Rabbi says: May 19, 2012 at 21:30 Sorry, but I have not studied every incident that has ever occurred with someone carrying a gun. My conclusion is simple logic based on the well-studied thought process of the criminal mind and what I would do if the roles were reversed. Conversely, I have not seen you display any proof that it has not happened. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:33 Nice, someone asks you to prove it and your response is “No you prove it!” The burden is not on me. (But heres a hint; I don’t have any because there is none. What a shocker?!) Why don’t you just man up and say, “I don’t have any proof that is just my opinion”? That way we acknowledge its just your opinion and you acknowledge that your opinion is not based in any sort of fact. You have a right to opinion. Use it, just don’t use it as fact. twency says: May 19, 2012 at 21:36 “My conclusion is simple logic based on the well-studied thought process of the criminal mind and what I would do if the roles were reversed.” Have you considered the simple logic that the criminal mind might react to an OCer with the thought “Hey, he’s armed, instead of messing with him I’ll pick a softer target”? LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:46 No logic tell me a criminal always finds the path of least resistance. So logic tells me he would say, “Oh damn that dude has a gun, lets go find someplace else”. Criminals don’t rob body builders, they rob little old ladies a majority of the time. There are exceptions to the rule, like the guys who robbed the banks with AK/beta drums – but alas, the exception, not the rule. Jim says: May 19, 2012 at 23:09 It is impossible to prove a negative and I question your intelligence for asking someone to do so. Arguments not based in fact are always doomed to failure. If any of the scenarios you “experts” keep vomiting forth had ever happened, I’m sure it would have been cited many times over by the anti OC crowd. I can respect people who have the training necessary to be instructors, but I really think making videos such as this one without one shred of data to back it up is irresponsible and arrogant. I don’t care how many class you’ve taught, you don’t know what is best for me. I don’t thing taking an assload of courses to become an instructor makes you the be all end all of self defense. If Audi Murphy had made that video I would take it to heart. From these two guys, I call it bullshit. Rabbi says: May 19, 2012 at 21:49 Here’s some proof: There have been numerous murders of gun owners at gun ranges simply to steel there guns: Shoot me first. This thread reminds me of the adage: You can not use truth and logic to argue someone out of a position that they did not use truth and logic to get into. Reply Rabbi says: May 19, 2012 at 21:50 Oops.. steel=steal. Can’t wait for the edit service to be back online! Rabbi says: May 19, 2012 at 21:52 Auuuug.. typing faster than thinking…there=their. LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:53 Rabbi can you link me to just a handful of these stories. Not that you are lying, but the truth of the matter is everyone on the internet knows everything. Show me the links. And when you are done showing me the links then show me the data on percentage rates of these incidents when compared to everyting else. And obviously someone willing to go to a gun range to rob people are way above your average crack head criminal. But, I’ll wait for those links. Just a couple, doesnt have to be “hundreds”. Rabbi says: May 19, 2012 at 22:00 I am sorry, but I am not going to spoon feed you. Try googling “gun range murder” And yes, criminal attack cops all the time, as well as body builders. Do some research. LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 22:10 Rabbi you are missing the point. Everyone has done everything. Criminals and scientist a-like. The point being that if 1 out of 100 people robbed are body builders… you know what, screw it; no point in trying to debate with you. You are in “blinders” mode and refuse to acknowledge valid questions or attempt to answer them. Spoon feed me, lol, I will assume that translates into “I can’t back up my point” back pedal. Just FYI you can google “open carrier robbed” in google and get lots of hits. Thats not the point, the percentage data is what I want. I can google, “man has sex with goat” and get hits too. Doesn’t mean its normal. I guess I just add you to my list of people in this thread who can’t answer for their statements. I don’t have to show you any OC stats. Know why? I never said OC was better. I never said CC was worse. I only challenge the people who feel the need to say one is better or worse. If you can’t prove why its worse with real data then pound sand. Rabbi, says: May 19, 2012 at 22:28 Wow..You ask for links to prove my point and I tell you how to find them yourself which is not good enough for you now. I give up. LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:50 Sorry twency I re-read the post and see you were talking to him and not me. You are absolutely correct. Robbers don’t rob cops. Robbers don’t rob body builders. Robbers don’t rob black belts. Robbers do rob little old ladies, scared women and drunk people just to name a few. There are exceptions to the rule; but only those few rare exceptions. Criminals will always go the path of least resistance. A majority of them honestly do not have any interest in dying over a wallet that may or may not have $20 in. People keep bringing up “my training, my job, etc etc”. You have no idea what I do for a living. Maybe I just don’t feel like boasting about it. Maybe I want my words to be on their own merit, not have merit because of who or what I do. Reply Not Too Eloquent says: May 19, 2012 at 23:59 Ta K about hijacking a thread! Who the fuX are you so pissed at? PhillipE says: May 19, 2012 at 20:50 Maybe it’s just Georgia, you know, one of the southern states. But I’ve never had any problems OC’ing. No one grabbing their children and fleeing, even when their kids come up to me and talk to me about my gun while I’m at a public park watching my little boy play. I’ve only had positive and friendly conversations with strangers who happen to notice my firearm. Most people are oblivious and don’t even see it. Which is funny, since I carry in an OWB retention duty holster, and it’s a full-sized pistol. The proof, is that I once asked a lady if an unfamiliar building I was about to enter was a government building. She wondered why I had asked, and I told her I did not want to enter if it was a government building because of my firearm, and it might be against the law if I went in. She then took notice, and was shyly shocked that she had not seen my gun until then. And we had already said hello and spoken briefly prior to my question! So no, I don’t carry for the attention, because I am not naive enough to believe that most people notice. Since my gun weighs about 38oz, it would not be very easy to conceal (unless I threw another shirt on top, which I will not do when it’s hot) nor be very comfortable to stuff inside my waistband. So, the fact that I just happen to prefer OC, and that I’ve had no problems while doing it, does that make me a “bad ambassador” for gun rights? Because I OC, I’ve had the opportunity to help educate people on their rights and the law by answering their questions. Something that never occurs when I on rare occassion CC. Seems to me that I’ve been a better ambassador for gun rights than you CC-only prunes out there. And thanks for your concern about any valuables in my car. If it does get broken into while I’m not around, at least my gun will remain holstered and no one will get hurt. Y’all trying to be my momma? LOL I say live and let live. OC or CC or NC (never carry) to your heart’s content. Those who spout “wild west” nonsense are certainly ignorant that things were a lot tamer in the old west towns then when most men OC’ed, than in the cities today where criminals CC virtually 100%. I have nothing to hide. When was the last time you saw a criminal OC a pistol? Ignorance must be bliss, boys. When y’all grow up and become men, and pull your noses out of other peoples’ business, you might not be so judgemental of those who open carry their firearm. Reply DaveY says: May 19, 2012 at 20:53 Really? We can’t think of something more productive to discuss that would… oh, I don’t know… actually advance the right to keep and bear arms politically than some more infighting, us vs. them between the “only concealed” and open carry camps? Rob – How much of a time penalty does adding a concealment garment to a strong side belt carry add to 1) Your draw / present / shoot & 2) the average student draw / present / shoot times? Seriously, this is how we lose folks. As the Virginian above brought up, but maybe didn’t fully articulate, open was the only method of legally carrying where alcohol was sold for over 10 years. Those dangerous family restaurants….We learned to deal with open carry. All of us, not just gun people. Even people who live right next to DC. We need to find a way to solve this before it divides us even worse. So Rob, you said that if we want to make a political statement, stand in a park and hand out pamphlets. That’s pretty narrow minded, but ok. How about this – where is your public comment opposing ATFs plan to register multiple sales of certain rifles? Or how about your public comments supporting the repeal of the ban on firearms being carried in National Parks & Wildlife refuges? A little leading by example wouldn’t hurt. Both of these administrative actions are still accessible online or via FOIA. Surely someone of your profile can show us all unwashed masses who may accept open carry that you back up your words with deeds. Or maybe show us the video of you standing in a park handing out pamphlets? This is an argument that simply doesn’t need to happen, perpetuated by people who simply have some interest in controlling the behavior of others. Whether it’s financial, personal, bigotry, discomfort or seeking blog headlines. This sort of “ideological purity test” applied to gun owners only serves to fracture is into smaller, less effective factions fight in different directions. Anyone prior service should understand this. If we divide & fracture our political forces by alienating those of us on the same side, people like Mike Bloomberg & Sarah Brady won’t have to lift a finger to take our effectiveness away, we will destroy ourselves politically. Maybe there are less effective means of open carry available that are more 1st Amendment than 2nd Amendment. An AR pistol of some kind maybe? A 500 S&W perhaps? or maybe that person only has money for one gun, one holster… Or maybe they have a preference for that gun which they are proficient. Or maybe it’s the gun their mom or dad gave them. And many more… We need to be less concerned about how they carry and more concerned that they carry and are proficient with what they carry, no matter the method of carry. Reply APBTFan says: May 19, 2012 at 21:01 I don’t actually see this as fracturing from within. Maybe I’m dense but in this thread I’ve seen a spirited debate within otherwise closed ranks. I haven’t seen any “eff you’s” or “you’re an idiot’s” so I think we’re doing fine challenging the finer points of what we as individuals hold dear. Rereading this I sound like a fuckin’ hippie but so be it. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:20 I can only say all the effort you took to type that will go largely ignored from anyone really interested in learning and expanding their mind. When presented with sound logic they loudest usually can’t answer with an equally logical response. If they do muster anything it will be based in opinion and not fact. Sorry. 🙁 Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 22:16 I’ve been in the Capitol building lobbying for gun rights, I’ve participated in Congressional Hunting Events and discussed gun ownership with lawmakers, I’ve been on World News Tonight positively portraying those interested in training or personal defense… My RKBA / 2nd Amendment rights pedigree is well established… No need to go there. Reply DaveY says: May 19, 2012 at 23:36 yes, there really is a need to go there since you made the point. So… did you bother to log your public comments? These were nationwide issues, and were tough to miss. Probably most of the posters & readers here have done their fair share of capitol building lobbying. Reply Charles5 says: May 19, 2012 at 21:53 Ok, this is a response to LLARMS30813. I don’t care one way or another whether you open carry or not, but I have to point out a few things about your posts. 1. I understand your whole point about wanting people to provide data. However, I could ask the same thing of you. Show me data that supports that OCing does NOT put you at a disadvantage. You and I both know that nobody can provide said data on either side because nobody has compiled anything. Just because no data has been compiled does not mean the argument is wrong…it doesn’t make it right either. Also, you made the following statement: “Criminals are opportunistic and only want the path of least resistance. I bet if someone where to take the time to perform a non-bias test it would show that someone who is CC is far more likely to become part of a criminal situation than someone who is OCing.” How do you demand that people provide data to support their argument and then turn around and make the above statement without providing any data of your own? Frankly, that is a very poor debate strategy, which brings me to my next point. 2. You said “Can someone tells me why cops don’t CC? I mean if its a superior way to carry, surely this will be an easy question.” Well, cops in uniform are already expected to be carrying, so the element of surprise and discretion is lost. However, last time I checked, plain-clothes cops do carry concealed. Sarcastic retorts like that one are just silly, in my opinion. 3. I am from Georgia too, so I am all too familiar with the 100 degree heat and humidity. You asked “Please provide me an example of how I can conceal a G17 with a T-Shirt and shorts, or jeans.” I am 5′ 8″ and about a 32″ waist, so not a big guy that can easily hide large objects on his person. I carried a Sig P226 for years in a crappy IWB uncle mikes holster with a t-shirt and shorts or jeans (poor college student and the gun was given to me). My Sig is both heavier and thicker than your G17, but I CC successfully for several years until I could buy something smaller. Believe me, I know it isn’t comfortable, but sometimes you just have to suck it up. 4. I agree with you that the best carry form is a matter of opinion and to each his own. I can definitely draw faster from OC than CC and I do train. As Mr. Pincus pointed out, a self defense situation can catch you off guard, so there won’t be any smooth range type draws. Accordingly, I find it very difficult to draw one handed from a CC posture. Some would say “drop what your holding and use two hands, stupid.” My coffee? Sure. My phone? Yep. My, newborn child?….yeah OC definitely has the advantage there. So, I agree that it has its advantages. I do carry open from time to time, but only on rare occasions. Mainly, I carry concealed most of the time because for me (logically) its advantages outweigh those of OC and discretion is the better part of valor. 5. At the end of the day, do what suits you best, I don’t care. That is your choice, I I fully support your choice and right to carry however you want. It is also your right to argue for your choice of carry. Cool, go with what you believe. Just my two cents, if they are even worth that much. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 22:04 Charles5, “How do you demand that people provide data to support their argument and then turn around and make the above statement without providing any data of your own? Frankly, that is a very poor debate strategy, which brings me to my next point.” I think you took the comment out of context. The point I was trying to make was that that when viewing things from the eyes of a criminal, someone who is CCing is just like any other possible target. He doesn’t know youre armed so he just would assume you “target: normal” Where is if he sees someone with a gun logic (not data sorry) would tell me this would be his thought pattern; “Is he a cop? Is he security?” and then weigh the risk vs. reward of possibly getting shot over a few hundred dollars or less. It has long been common knowledge that criminals always go the path of least resistance. Being a criminal pretty much means you are not willing to do hard work or you wouldn’t be a criminal to start with. As far as me proving data that OC is better or worse, you hit the nail on the head that the data does not exist, or its so few and far in between its not substantial to make data. THe difference between me and the anti-OC person is I never said “OC is better” or “CC is worse” – if you feel I have I challenge you to point out where I did. I’ve done nothing more than defend or attempt to crush the anti-OC propaganda without saying one bad thing about CC. I will say this, I do find to tend that people who OC or don’t care if you OC or CC are generally more pleasant people to be around or speak to. Once someone starts speaking in absolutes (cc good, oc sucks) it just reveals their incapacity to look at things from someone elses shoes. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 22:12 Dear thread, No one has to to to give me any hard data on OC victims vs. CC victims. Can anyone provide this data for me? So far everyone I have asked for this has not risen to the challenge. Anyone? Anyone? Beuller? Reply Rob Pincus says: May 19, 2012 at 22:18 What data do you want, exactly? How about the California gun law change… That is pretty solid empirical evidence that OC Activism can Backfire! Reply PhillipE says: May 19, 2012 at 22:51 Aw, come on Rob is that the best you can do? You know that Kalicommifornia had been heading down that landslide (stripping away of firearm rights) for a long time. That state is so far left it’s about to fall off the mainland. Most of the sensible people left that state long ago, and the ones that are stuck there are doing their best to unstuck themselves. Open carry certainly hasn’t backfired for the majority of states. In fact, more states now are OC friendly than ever before, with no panic or blood in the streets hype that the anti-gunners predicted would occur with friendly carry laws. May I assume you make a distinction between ordinary open carry and “OC Activism”? Reply Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 01:04 Yes, absolutely… there are definitely two things: 1. OC for the sake of “I am better able to protect myself or others by Oc’ing”… which I think is wrong. 2. OC to show people ******** (insert anything), which I think is not only wrong, but reckless and a great disservice to the RKBA movement. As far as asking for evidence and then dismissing actual real evidence that OC Activism is a negative: Poor Form. LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 23:27 Philip he pulled that one in another response. If there was a way to “cheat” in debate, using California would rank up there. You are talking about a state that somehow thinks less than 10 bullet mags are less dangerous. Clearly they are not 2A friendly to start with, using that state as a basis of anything firearm related is just herp derp. I want data that backs any tactical claims that CC is superior than OC; saying “well in my experience” does not equal fact. I want data that backs the “target first” propaganda; show me death percentages of OCers vs. CCers. Lets start with those. Reply Not Too Eloquent says: May 20, 2012 at 00:08 Let’s start with people that take themselves way too seriously… Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 01:00 Next: People who post with code names… Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 01:06 Can’t do that. Trying to prove a negative is impossible… snake eater 332 says: May 20, 2012 at 10:30 Rob, some of have to use ‘code names’ due to policies set by our employers/agencies on the use of ‘social media.’. liquidflorian says: May 20, 2012 at 02:03 If your anecdotal evidence is California is all you have, Rob, I have to agree with what others that this argument is a weak one. As a resident of CA I know that the legislature here is constantly, with out pause or misstep, seeking to eliminate firearms ownership in the state. Period. See CS Lewis’s quote about the tyranny of do-gooders. Being a May Issue state UOC was pretty much the only alternative many here had, as most Sheriff’s here don’t see self defense as “Good Cause”. They would’ve come to this point eventually. Riddle me this, Rob; How is Arizona handling constitutional carry? 😉 And I have to object to Yeager’s assertion that OC’ers don’t have a sense of community, or an appreciation of the RBKA struggle, and to his shirt (he gets so pissed when you do that, lol!)… Otherwise I do agree with your practical criticisms of open carry. Reply Russell Phagan says: May 20, 2012 at 06:14 A history of open carry since statehood in 1911 is why Arizona now has constitutional carry–no permits required to carry concealed. When anyone can open carry without a permit, there isn’t a lot of differennce in letting people untuck their shirts. Open carry has also been used as a tool for political activism here successfully including getting local government ls to comply with preemption, and getting “no guns” signs taken down from various city and state owned properties. Now that we have constitutional carry here there aren’t a lot of good reasons left to open carry in as unless you’re in the desert or fall into the 18-20 year old range where open carry is your only legal option. Open carry has become less common as a result. Not all states are the same. CA bans open carry, OK just legalized it. As a whole gun rights are moving forward across the country. If that’s because of or in spite of open carry is a matter of debate. I open carried every day for 8 years. For the past 4 I’ve carried concealed. The open carry movement has become a lot more radicalized in recent years, and there are too many people that do it to shock and offend rather than going about their daily business. I also began to find the hyper vigilance mental state it required difficult to maintain and got tired of dumb comments and questions from people I didn’t want to talk to. All that said I am glad the option for open carry exists if for no other reason than I am not breaking the law if my shirt accidently comes up and exposes my gun. Reply MKEgal says: May 22, 2012 at 15:55 “I also began to find the hyper vigilance mental state it required difficult to maintain and got tired of dumb comments and questions from people I didn’t want to talk to” So when you hide your pistol you’re less aware of what’s going on around you? I don’t find myself ‘hypervigilant’ except when there’s danger. Most of the time I’m aware of who’s around me & roughly where they are (no eyes in the back of my head). In the dumb questions department, I hear ya there! When I’m not in the mood for them, I either don’t carry or (if I’m someplace where it’s legal) carry concealed. Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 08:47 To those who say gun grabs “Never” happen: This guy was OC’ing, had his gun taken and was killed… http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/local-crime/2012/feb/17/tdmet02-teen-faces-new-charges-in-bp-shooting-ar-1695415/ Reply Jim says: May 20, 2012 at 12:42 Wow……..you found ONE……..you must be so proud…….. Reply liquidflorian says: May 20, 2012 at 23:28 His Google-Fu is strong! Rob Pincus says: May 21, 2012 at 00:14 Actually, I’ve posted two in these comments already… Jason says: May 21, 2012 at 11:11 Two! Care to post every time a CCWer gets attacked because someone thought they didn’t have a gun? If it’s a tactical failure just because someone got attacked, then it’s a failure regardless of what form of carry prompted the attack. You are promoting a double standard, Rob. LLARMS30813 says: May 20, 2012 at 13:30 Please quote where someone said “never”. Cause as far as I’ve read, no one has said that. Reply Todd says: May 19, 2012 at 22:20 I think that’s what it’s all about with “experts” in any field, control. They feel supirior and feel the need to control the minions. That’s the way it works in avaition. Do it my way or we will get you. So we do it their way then go out and get it done while they push pencils. It makes them feel like real men. So, with that being said, I think I’ll leave my jacket in the car at Sunday lunch tomorrow. Just so I’m not being controlled by someone who thinks he’s smarter than me. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 20, 2012 at 01:02 Actually, I see it as just the opposite… Mostly, my actions/thoughts/posts/contributions are enacted in response to questions from my students/clients…. so, in a very real way, I am actually the minion trying to offer whatever advice I can. Reply PhillipE says: May 19, 2012 at 22:34 Tricky questions ahead: Would the Zimmerman/Martin incident have gone down differently had Zimmerman been OC’ing? Would Martin have at least hesitated about using his fists against a man that he knew was armed with a gun? Hmmm… Also, if Zimmerman is found not-guilty, how might OC determine whether or not one is targeted by random violence motivated by the verdict? Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 19, 2012 at 23:32 Unless Trayvon had brass balls, you don’t bring your fist to a gun fight. I mean I don’t know about anyone else, but if the other guy has a gun and I got nothing, flee’n is priority #1. This ain’t the movies, there is no reset button. Reply not my usual name says: May 20, 2012 at 00:38 Smart assed answer : Trayvon was probably high so his mental state was impaired. He might not even have notived that Zimmerman had a gun. General answer: If you are open carrying in place where it is usual and customary there is a good chance that there is more than one person with a gun in the immediate vicinty. You could be an easy target but the guy walking behind you could have a gun. Criminals are going to avoid causing trouble in that enviroment. Reply Wiebelhaus says: May 19, 2012 at 23:30 This is reasonable, I agree with these two. Reply Jason says: May 20, 2012 at 01:36 It’s sad when firearm instructors absorb the anti-gun milieu they live in. But sadly, not unexpected. For years, the NRA didn’t like black rifles, because they didn’t look like the wood-stocked hunting rifles and shotguns the “sportsmen” were used to. But the culture changed, and the NRA changed too, when they noticed that the old sportsmen were dying off, and a lot of their newer members had come to shooting from a different subculture: video gamers and recreational shooters who preferred the look of “tactical” rifles and handguns. Pincus and Yeager are just the old Fudds of the 21st century. They come from a culture where visible guns are scary, and they cowtow to that culture. But it’s not the only one, nor even the most desirable. As for tactics, well, there are criminals who will attack you if they think you have a gun, and there are criminals who will attack you if they think you don’t have a gun. You notice how for these guys, the latter isn’t considered a tactical failure, but the former is? Even people who despise open carry hold it to a higher standard! That’s a bit of a back-handed compliment, really. No tactic offers perfect security, but if you play the odds without regard for pre-existing bias, I think it’s pretty clear that there are far more criminals in the latter class than the former. If criminals wanted to work hard, they’d have a real job. And I’ll happily trade a large risk for a small one. Reply Jason says: May 20, 2012 at 01:58 In engineering and other forms of risk analysis, you look at “failure modes”. How – and how often – things can go wrong. Nothing is ever perfect, so there are always failure modes. You try to minimize them to the greatest degree possible by comparing, then picking and choosing. So let’s compare: OC failure modes: 1. A determined opponent sees your gun and targets you first as a threat. 2. A determined opponent sees your gun and covets it. CCW failure modes: 1. A not-so-determined opponent (much larger number) sees you apparently don’t have a gun and targets you (rape, violence for sheer amusement) or something you own (robbery, carjacking.) 2. Any situation in which a CCW carrier fails to stop due to insufficient caliber of a small, concealable pistol. 3. Any situation in which a CCW carrier fails to stop due to insufficient capacity of a small, concealable pistol. 4. Any situation in which a CCW carrier fails to deploy a gun due to interference from concealment garment. 5. Any situation in which a CCW carrier fails to have a gun, because it’s too much of a hassle to get all duded up in a concealment holster/garment. (Meanwhile, even in 100 degree weather, wearing jeans and a t-shirt, an OCer can slide a paddle holster on in about 3 seconds as they step out the door for a quick run to the mailbox or the DQ.) There is no such thing as a perfect solution, a method of carry that eliminates all possible risks. We live in an imperfect world where violence happens – that’s why we carry. But those who carry openly will need to use that gun far less often than those who carry concealed, and when they do, they’ll likely have more gun, and have an easier time deploying it. Reply Steve says: May 20, 2012 at 02:36 While in no way calling the credentials of the subjects of the original post into question, I must ask: What makes a “firearms expert” a firearms expert? I mean, there’s a crap-load of them out there, what specifically qualifies them to render opinions? And I’m talking not just these two but the firearms training biz in general? Buff up you forearms a little, order some duds from 511, get a good haircut, shoot reasonably well, be highly opinionated and talk loud would all seem to be prime attributes on the surface. (Note, this also works for gun counter guys and usually the guy next to you at the range). What is it that really makes a firearms pro, a useful individual to hand money to? What can I learn from them that I can’t learn from a book? Like RP and JY, I’m not convinced on open carry, but I can’t exactly disapprove of it either. My choice is CC for some but not all of the reasons stated. Chief among which is that I am not trained in retention, nor do I use retention gear. And getting killed with your own gun is a dumb way to die. Purely situational and tactical considerations drive my choice. But I don’t believe in dumbing things down for the anti’s either. They are always going to be anti, and forcing them to show their hand, even if it costs us is going to harm their side and do ours more good in the long term. Reply snake eater 332 says: May 20, 2012 at 10:20 I open carry daily as a uniformed police officer and sometimes in plain clothes as well. Although I’m required to use one in uniform, I prefer a holster with retention when I OC in plain clothes on duty because I know that people have tried to take guns from uniformed police officers in the past, to include coworkers of mine. I know that this is a very rare occurrence and that these idiots who’ve tried this are mentally insane, desperate, just evil, or all of the above. However, those people DO exist and are out there! If they’re not afraid to try and take a uniformed officer’s gun, then what makes you think they wouldn’t try to take a gun from an officer in plain clothes or an armed OC civilian? I’m sorry, but there is absolutely NO way to be 100% alert all the time and to constantly be aware of your surroundings. Completely impossible. I’m saying this as a LEO for 15+ years and with 9+ years of prior military service in military intelligence and special operations. After nearly 25 years as an armed professional, I believe that I’m quite observant, but realize that even I can let my guard down sometimes. I don’t personally prefer or condone OC for normal everyday activities, with the exception of while hiking, hunting, on your own property, etc., as I don’t think it’s the most tactically feasible choice, but that’s just MY opinion. I know you may be a little slower on presentation to target, but that can be minimized with training. I prefer to have the tactical advantage of surprise if some nearby dirtbag decides to act stupid. I just hope that those who choose to carry a firearm (whether OC or CC) make well-educated and informed decisions on the matter, like considering the use of retention holsters and weapons retention training, before they decide to do so. Reply Keith says: May 20, 2012 at 14:02 While people have and will try to disarm a police officer. Can you think of any example of that happening in a non-police confrontation. In other words a police officer walking down the street, not interacting with a suspect, who has had someone attempt to take his gun? How often has that happened? I am betting that it is 99.99999% more likely that a bad guy would try to quietly walk out of view. Avoiding a encounter that is likely to go badly for them is smarter. You don’t have to be an idiot to be a criminal. Reply snake eater 332 says: May 20, 2012 at 10:27 I’d also like to add that I’m not completely anti-OC. I just think that there’s a time and place for it and it’s use is limited, especially for me living in primarily an urban and suburban area in New England. I’ve also trained with Rob in the past and will train with him again in the near future. He is one of the most intelligent and articulate firearms instructors I’ve ever had the opportunity to train with (and that includes many during my military and LE careers). He’s is extremely knowledgeable and well researched in his training principles and practices. Reply Mark says: May 20, 2012 at 10:29 There’s no question that Rob does his homework and really tries to come up with the most effective training recommendations. It had to be difficult for him to go public with endorsement of striker-fired pistols despite their popularity when it meant recommending against the hallowed 1911 (my favorite). It is not necessary to agree with Rob, but his intentions can’t be faulted. Reply snake eater 332 says: May 20, 2012 at 10:38 Nor should his opinion(s) be discounted due to his vast experience and knowledge in firearms training. He’s definitely earned the right to opine on such matters. That being said, it is an opinion, albeit from a subject matter expert, and others do not have to agree with it. An intelligent person should critically research a topic with an open mind and formulate their own opinion based upon the many sources. Reply stateisevil says: May 20, 2012 at 11:06 @ Rob Pincus. Really? Please don’t be offended. I’m sure you are a wonderful professional and I would benefit greatly by taking your classes. There are yahoos. And there could be disadvantages to open carry in certain situations. Having seen suspicious and borderline criminal behavior change as a result of my OC, I cannot agree with you in general. California is not a valid example. California is far, far gone. OC has done much for gun rights in many states and is helping normalize firearms to the American public and even the world. Reply Jim says: May 20, 2012 at 12:56 The problem is people like Pete and Repeat in the video drawing a line in the sand and basically calling people that OC dumbasses if they exercise their right to OC. I find it arrogant and insulting and would never take instruction from people so biased. Both methods have their uses and good instructors would be more interested in making sure people are proficient in whatever method they choose rather than trying to dictate to them which to do. That’s like Pizza Hut telling me what to order on my pizza cause they know more about pizza than me. No amount of classes to become instructors qualify you to tell me what is best for me in that regard. Oh yeah, that camoed SUV screams mall ninja!!! Reply Phillip says: May 20, 2012 at 17:16 I was actually thinking one of them should be called Gecko45. Reply Jim says: May 20, 2012 at 18:56 Funnt Reply Rob Pincus says: May 21, 2012 at 00:20 The Camo-SUV is a promotional Vehicle for the PDN Training Tour… Not a “daily driver”… that would be goofy! Reply Voice of Reason says: May 20, 2012 at 13:01 So…why do police officers carry their guns openly, if there are so many disadvantages to OC and so many advantages to CC? Still want to claim that the difference in draw time is “negligible?” What a joke. Reply Voice of Reason says: May 20, 2012 at 13:04 Oh yeah, and as far as having the “element of surprise” when you CC, I can promise that your attacker is going to have the element of surprise to begin with. Most of us don’t go seeking defensive encounters. I’d rather a criminal looks at me, and walks away to pick a softer target. I never want to have to draw or shoot anyone. My weapon is for a last resort, and by CC’ing, I am taking away perhaps the most valuable deterrent to the encounter even taking place. Reply Mike C says: May 20, 2012 at 13:15 I find this article extremely biased. The only thing I agree on, is the opinion that guys who OC just to challenge cops in a battle of Constitutional Rights gives gun carriers in general a bad image. I open carry most of the time. I do not do this for any political statement or agenda. I have no desire to have any run-ins with law enforcement, but I carry a digital voice recorder at all times on the chance I do have an overzealous police officer who is unfamiliar with the law and wants to make an example out of me. I open carry because the weapon is quicker to draw one handed. As personal defense trainers, both Rob and James should know that you’re not always able to use both hands during an attack. Trying to fight off an attacker with one hand, and then access a concealed firearm hidden under one or more layers of clothing can be difficult. If open carry isn’t quicker to draw, why do police officers not carry concealed? Wouldn’t that make LEO look less intimidating to folks who don’t always trust the police? They don’t conceal their primary weapon because having an uninstructed draw is quicker and more efficient than a concealed draw stroke that requires moving clothing to get to. I open carry as a visual deterrent to would-be attackers, so they can plainly see I am not a soft target. Until you can show me that there is any valid, substantiated evidence that open carry makes one a target rather than someone to avoid, I will continue to believe it acts as a deterrent. When I am concealed carrying, I look unarmed. This means that I possibly look like a soft target, and as a result, will be forced to react to an attack rather than prevent one all together because the criminal sees my weapon and decides to find an easier target. I open carry because I don’t like to inferior caliber weapons for the sake of concealability. It gets mighty hot in the south during the summer, so trying to conceal a larger handgun under a t-shirt can be difficult, and uncomfortable. And yes, I own quality IWB holsters, but even with something like a nice Comp Tac Minotaur, IWB with a large sidearm is not ideal in the summer heat. You are free to disagree with me, just as I am free to disagree with you. I just hate that because of your personal view regarding open carry, you have decided to make all open carriers look bad. You don’t prefer open carry for yourself, great. Don’t open carry. Just don’t try to make those of us that do look foolish or uneducated. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 20, 2012 at 13:41 This thread isn’t going quite how they expected is my guess. As someone pointed out the problem is speaking in absolutes. In a round about way they are saying outside of a few circumstances anyone who OC’s is an “ass clown”. They are basically putting down people who OC that are not trying to be cowboys or trying to push some political agenda. When we ask for data on OCers being more inclined to bodily harm or death, the retort seems to be; “Well why don’t you provide data on OC?” And thats where the major disconnect is. I don’t see anyone who is pro-OC saying CC sucks or does not provide a tactical advantage in some situations. The burden of proof is not on us, we are not claiming one method of carry is better than the other. On the other hand Rob has spoken in absolutes and clearly draws a line in the sand that CC is superior to OC. That means the burden is on him, not us. We did not make any claims, he did. And that is when taking people like this seriously slips when they fail to provide data on such a request. Having an opinion is one thing, but if you preach this stuff to your classes then you are basically creating a sub-culture of gun owners that divides us. If you do that you are nothing but harmful to the greater picture. If you don’t babble this kind of stuff in class, then more power to you. But the mere act of putting a video out the public denouncing the method pretty much gives us insight into what he is feeding others. I’m not sure why he bothers with any pro-2A stuff because hes basically putting a rift in the community at the same time. Talk about going in circles. Reply Dukenukum says: May 20, 2012 at 13:45 I have been open carrying for the last three years or so. When I open carry thuggish brutes suddenly become more mannerly. My experience has shown O.C has a greater deterrence to crime than C.C. I look at those crying about carry most are either anti gunners or CCW instructors. Reply LLARMS30813 says: May 20, 2012 at 15:23 Duknukum this is where the old saying comes from, “An armed society is a polite society”. I did not want to bring it up, for the anti’s to use as “bully” ammo – but all of us OCing have experienced that people who would normally not show any manners all of a sudden are the most perfect citizens you could want. Holding doors open, saying “thank you” and “pardon me” and so forth suddenly has a come-back when someone sees a gun. This is not to say that carrying a gun should bully someone into showing manners, its simply shows you how crappy society as a whole has become. The problem is not the gun, its the people. Reply CornfedinOhio says: May 20, 2012 at 13:58 The OC picnics and Lunches have proven. Dry helpful in Ohio to educate rouge police departments In violation of Ohio laws. When they shake down a law abiding citizen for open carry they need some training. A group of OC folks coming to town will certainly make officers seek more information. I’d argue OC for political reasons is a huge benefit. Reply Jamie says: May 20, 2012 at 16:41 You’re right about the open carry meet’s working well. I bet we may have even been to a few of the same. Reply 101abn says: May 20, 2012 at 14:59 OK OK, I’ll tell you why I carry concealed, I have a little pistol, and I am self conscious about it. Now, are you happy?? Reply Ice says: May 20, 2012 at 15:05 Carrying a gun as a civilian in the United States is about planning for contingencies. So when we weigh the costs and benefits of various methods of carry, I think it’s also important to consider the likelihood that those costs and benefits will be realized. Contributors to this thread have made some good points about the advantages and disadvantages of open carry. For example, it seems true that open carry facilitates a faster draw, enables you to draw one-handed, and allows for the convenient carry of more potent arms. But all these advantages are based on the extremely statistically unlikely scenario in which the armed civilian actually draws her firearm for a defensive use. They are advantages, but advantages that will only be realized when the crap truly hits the fan. The disadvantages of open carry, however, are likely to be realized on a weekly, if not daily basis. By displaying your firearm, you virtually ensure that others will see it. There seems to be a very good chance you will be stopped and questioned by police, questioned by other citizens, and asked to leave places of business. These are very real disadvantages that are very likely to happen. Contrast with the advantages of open carry, which are only realized in an extremely unlikely situation. For me, open carry vs. concealed carry comes down to whether the advantages of added firepower and ease of access in an extremely rare self-defense situation outweigh the costs of being questioned by police and civilians and asked to leave bars, shops, restaurants, and sporting events. For me, an extra two rounds and a tenth of a second off my presentation time does not justify the colossal headache of openly carrying in our society. The issue of whether carrying a gun openly serves as a deterrent or as an invitation to “shoot me first” is an open question. There are good logical arguments for both points, but there is nowhere near enough reliable data to give statistical support to either side of the argument—so please stop asking. However, to those that have suggested their own open carrying has prevented impending crimes: please share with the community how you are able to identify criminals before they commit crimes. This knowledge would not only improve my own self-defense, but would also really help the smooth functioning of the criminal justice system. As for Mr. Pincus and Mr. Yeager, I think they have contributed meaningfully to an important debate about the most responsible ways to bear arms in today’s society. It is unfortunate that they used a phrase like “assclown” to describe those who disagree with them, but this indiscretion should not cloud the substance of the arguments they are making. This thread should be about the message, not the messenger. The only truly harmful viewpoint in this discussion is the one that says these sorts of discussions are somehow fracturing the pro-Second Amendment community. As an independent thinker and someone who carries, I find it simply absurd to suggest that those who do not support every aspect of the dominant gun lobbies’ agenda are anti-Second Amendment or must be posting on the wrong forum. A vibrant pro-Second Amendment community will engage in reasoned debate about every aspect of gun ownership—not simply assume that the only correct answers are those found on the NRA’s Frequently Asked Questions page. So while there may be a right and a wrong answer to this topic, and YOU may have the right one, it is simply wrong to say that having the discussion at all is harmful to gun rights. This sort of thinking can be filed next to “Patriotism means no questions.” Reply PhillipE says: May 20, 2012 at 20:33 Ice, I haven’t yet experienced the “colossal headache” you made mention of by OC’ing here in Georgia. The ones you mentioned are: 1. Being questioned by police. I know my rights and how to articulate them, so I do not view this as a problem or burden. It might even be an enjoyable learning experience for both me and the officer. 2. Being questioned by citizens. This has occurred and has only been positive experiences, so again not a problem. 3. Being asked to leave a business. Never has happened, but I’ll gladly leave and take my money where it is appreciated, so not a problem. On the other hand, businesses near me that I’ve been to have been robbed in the recent past by multiple armed assailants. This fact makes the thought of carrying a small caliber weapon with a small ammo capacity less than desirable. Reply Rob Pincus says: May 21, 2012 at 00:23 Very Fair and Well Written, Ice…. For the record, the “assclowns” I referenced were those who carry openly simply for shock value or to make a statement. -RJP Reply MKEgal says: May 22, 2012 at 15:47 “The only truly harmful viewpoint in this discussion is the one that says these sorts of discussions are somehow fracturing the pro-Second Amendment community.” Discussion is one thing. You thinking cc is better & me thinking OC is better is fine. I’m happy to let you go on thinking that – it doesn’t affect me at all. And my opinion probably doesn’t influence you. But when someone who has set himself up as an authority (whether that’s Pincus or your neighborhood cop or a random firearm safety instructor) starts preaching his opinion, & says that only that opinion is correct, _that_ is divisive. I think there are times when cc is more polite, depending on the situation, and I know there are times when OC is a lot more convenient & comfortable. But I’ll leave your choice of how to run your life up to you, & thank you to let me decide how to run my life. The choice of how to carry should be left to each individual, just as the choice of how to worship or vote or dress. Reply GaryG says: May 20, 2012 at 15:50 Why do police and private security open carry? Obviously there is some advantage over conceal carry. This naturally brings us to the question – why should government agents be the only ones who are allowed to open carry? Why do the dudes in the video endorse open carry by law-enforcement (government agents) but not by non-sworn citizens? This also naturally begs the question of why is it anyone’s business how I carry my gun as long as it is being done so in a safe manner? Finally, I agree that the people who go after cops while open carrying to prove a point are not helping anything but the fact is those people – the political grand-standers – are right. The government, much less to yuppies who make claims without supportive data, should not be telling me, you, or anyone else how we should be carrying our firearms. It comes down to this – we should be able to carry a gun however we want as long as it’s safe. Just because it may make someone uncomfortable, or they may not agree with it does not make a particular carry method wrong. So what if these two yuppies in the video think it’s “wrong” to open carry, no one is forcing them to open carry their guns. Reply Jamie says: May 20, 2012 at 16:48 A person who is Oc’ing is clear of their intentions. WE will NEVER know the amount of criminals who saw an Oc’er and decided to go the other way. Criminals prefer unarmed victims. So since OCing makes you an assclown does having a long goatee, tattooed arms and wearing shirts with skulls on them make you in a biker gang? It would be nice if supposed supporters of the 2A stuck together in support of each other….. Reply Adam says: May 20, 2012 at 18:20 Hey lets go on the internet and make fun of how some gun owners like to carry. Lets tell them how wrong they are. Why attack your own for doing something they like. Reply liquidflorian says: May 20, 2012 at 23:30 As deep a wealth of knowledge James Yeager has, that’s kind of his thing… Reply William says: May 20, 2012 at 20:31 I find it curious, that these guys have a lucrative business that focus on the 2nd amendment right to carry a firearm for self defense, yet they find it necessary to slam on people who open carry which is a right. In some states OC is a right, while CC is considered a privilege. In the 1800’s it was considered bad form to conceal. if you Concealed your firearm you were thought of as a sneak, and only the criminals concealed. No days the CC guys think it is bad form to OC. OC guys don’t care if you OC or CC, while the CC guys are against OC. There are some areas of the country where you can OC legally as long as you can own a firearm, But for one reason or another you can not qualify for a CC permit. If we are going to support the 2nd then we should support the 2nd all the way. to say that the OC guys are untrained ass-clowns is just degrading and wrong. Many of the guys that I know including myself, that OC are instructors that are well trained and train many others in the proper use of firearms. I also find it interesting that MR. Pincus talks about the proper training for a fast draw from concealment, but in the 2 PDN videos that I have seen All of his students are drawing from a strong side Holster with no concealment garment. Reply Stu Strickler says: May 21, 2012 at 00:50 Just carry that firearm and never let anyone tell you you can’t Reply Danny says: May 21, 2012 at 05:54 If you so called 2nd ammendment guys want to explain why open carry is not good , well thats fine. But to sit there and call us open carriers ” Ass Clowns” ? These are the kind of statements i hear from anti’s all the time and for you to sit there and bash on us, the Brady Bunch has got to be loving you right now. Reply Jay says: May 22, 2012 at 22:12 What many OC proponents seem to intentionally ignore is the Assclownery/Mall Ninja mentality that does exist in the OC/CC community. Also, just because popular trainers find it tactically unsound and will tell you so in unkind terms is not infringing on you. They are not lobbying to remove your 2A rights. They are telling you why they think it’s a bad idea. Where I live OC of a loaded weapon is legal and I know there is a vocal minority that practices it, yet I have never seen it until recently. Even then it wasn’t technically OC. I saw a guy at a private business with an exposed EMPTY Serpa holster and a double mag carrier with two loaded mags. (I’m not sure of the brand other than they were double stacked steel mags with some sort of plastic bottom plate.) He was also wearing a black Tshirt with a logo that would lead anyone to believe he was in the military and tan tactical pants and dirty tan military style boots. My first thought was, he forgot to bring his gun, but he obviously knew it was empty when he covered only the holster a few minutes later, yet left the mags exposed. I can’t think of any other scenario of why he would walk around like that other than to have other’s admire him. Why he seemed to intentionally leave his gun somewhere else, I can’t imagine. Getting back to the original point, If it’s legal to OC in your area, go ahead, no one is stopping you, but don’t get all offended if someone you admire happens to disagree. Reply Jim says: May 23, 2012 at 08:51 That video went a bit beyond disagreement. He basically called people who OC ignorant. I don’t even OC and I was a bit offended. The mentality of most of these instructors and most gun dealers is that we all must be stupid because our careers aren’t based around guns. Granted, there are definitely some mall ninjas out there that have no business with firearms, but most of us are able to think for ourselves and don’t need to be called assclowns if we exercise our right to carry. I don’t care to OC, but if I do I don’t need the approval of Rob Pincus and his sidekick’s approval to do so. If I had the time and money I could take just as many classes as they have and put out obnoxious videos to, but alas, I have to work a regular job. Reply Mike says: May 23, 2012 at 09:37 So I normally don’t open carry. Most of the time its concealed, but when the weather is 90 degrees or hotter here in Minnesota, concealed is just plain uncomfortable. So at times I open carry. I don’t do it for any activist reason or because I am showing off, its a matter of convenience and of course my holster is level 2. I have had extensive training so I am more then comfortable open carrying. I think being totally against open carry in public is extreme. Why I carry at all is best said with this quote “when seconds count the police are only minutes away”. That is the only reason I carry, to protect that which I care about. Reply George L. Lyon, Jr. says: May 23, 2012 at 10:47 Let me try to contribute to this discussion. First, I don’t think California is a good example against open carry. In the more populated jurisdictions in California, it is extremely difficult to obtain a concealed carry permit. Admittedly this is under attack and I am optimistic that shall issue will be held to be constitutionally required. However, unloaded open carry was the only way to carry for most in urban areas of California. So I think that undercuts Rob’s point. I also don’t think it is fair to insult those who did open carry in Cali for political reasons since many of them were protesting unfair treatment by police of open carriers going about their business. Finally, for those of us who live in the south, it gets hot in the Summer so carrying a full size gun may require a hot cover garment. The alternative might be a J Frame in a pocket holster, which I have used. Or a smaller semi-auto IWB. In terms of tactics, though, I tend to agree that open carry has some disadvantages. Getting harassed by police, alarming others, possibly being subject to a gun grab, and losing the element of surprise versus a bad guy. The advice I received from one of my instructors is that if you are going to open carry, use a retention holster. In sum, I prefer to CC, but want the legal option to OC when I feel the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. Reply Ryan says: May 26, 2012 at 19:15 I OC daily for 2 reasons. First, I aim to stop the progression of a criminal act at stage 1, intent. Second, by OCing, other law abiding citizens become more educated about their 2a rights as well as, in my small way, dispel the media and government installed fear of firearms. Reply Ryan says: May 26, 2012 at 19:21 This is from 2006. However I think it speaks volumes to the mindset of criminals. http://m.youtube.com/results?q=gun%20myths#/watch?v=RR9RN_iSKtg Reply Charles Nichols says: May 31, 2012 at 14:34 A video of two unmanly guys who seek secret advantage and unmanly assassinations. Likewise, in State v. Chandler, 5 La. Ann. 489, 490 (1850), the Louisiana Supreme Court held that citizens had a right to carry arms openly: “This is the right guaranteed by the Constitution of the United States, and which is calculated to incite men to a manly and noble defence of themselves, if necessary, and of their country, without any tendency to secret advantages and unmanly assassinations.” – US Supreme Court Heller decision http://CaliforniaRightToCarry.org Reply Bob Borland says: June 20, 2012 at 03:11 I live in CA. Our latest anti-gun governor very quietly signed a bill that was written and pushed behind closed doors. You people seem to think open carry people caused this but you’re probably just like two in the video who shave their heads and grow silly beards to try and look menacing and don’t have a clue what actually happened in CA. The bottom line is that Moonbeam Brown was anti-gun when he was governor the first time, when he was Mayor of Oakland (where modern gun control started), and still now that he’s the governor again. Moonbeam and the jackass Don Perata have both been diligently trying to disarm Californians for nearly half a century and this would have happened regardless of whether anyone had publicly open carried or not. But….. let’s for the sake of argument assume the bearded baldies with the thick hick accents are actually onto something and open carry did indeed cause Moonbeam to sign the ban. Am I to assume that in order to preserve some of my constitutional rights, I should sacrifice others? Where do you draw the line? I doubt you do. You talk, nothing more. Personally I think the two in the video standing in front of the camo truck (are you guys serious?) are just selling more nonsense to a bunch of folks who’ve been packing on the pounds playing video games. Reply RLC2 says: November 17, 2013 at 03:51 Bob, I live in CA also, and am upset with the YouTube crowd, and appreciated Rob’s take on CA open carry. Its bad enough with the 9th Court here, we don’t need OCD egotists with guns looking for controntations on you-tube to stimulate the Effete Elite in Sack-a-tomatoes. They’ve done enough damage to our rights to self-defense as it is. I think the take-away for me is that you decide how you carry based on the environment- I wouldn’t open carry just like I woudn’t wear a rigger belt, 5.11 pants, infidel t-shirt with tactical vest, or drive that SUV, cuz I want to be “the grey man”. I don’t want to be targeted for the gun, nor give up the tactical advantage of surprise if I have to use it. Hunting hogs out in the country is another matter- and here’s an example of how you have to consider your environment, rather than all or none statements- on one side of the mountain range, I was told by Border Patrol (who I stopped to chat with while looking for sign), to be careful hiking off trail in one particular place because of the history of illegal grows. He recommended open carry sidearm as a backup to the Win70-270. Another side of the mountains down close to the border, I spoke to a couple young border patrol guys, and one said frankly he’d probably draw on me if I was “all tactical, with camo, AR, and carrying a side arm”, rather than hunter orange carrying the typical FUDD wooden stocked rifle. The reason why? – the environment- a LOT of night-time human trafficking, and an assassination of a Border Patrol officer not long before, for his weapons. LLARMS- see my point? I’m not calling you a clown. I’m saying I agree with the generalization of how to carry, when, based on needs not a one-size fits all. Reply Nathan Hutchins says: October 11, 2012 at 11:40 There’s a lot of valid points on here. Where I live open carry is common enough where nobody is harassed because of it. I do both OC and CC depending on where I’m going and what I’m doing. There is always the occasional stare that I get when I’m open carrying. As far as OC’ing to make a political statement. I think that it’s good for other citizens to see that it’s not only criminals and cops that have guns. There’s a big difference between that and stupidly harassing cops while carrying. As for creating shock value, that’s due to our culture and the more people exercise the right the less people will be shocked about it. There should be people out there doing both. They both have their advantages and disadvantages. There are a lot of factors that play into what’s appropriate in any given situation. Reply Derek Davis says: November 17, 2013 at 02:43 At the end of the day arguing on the internet is like running a race in the special Olympics… Even if you “win” your still retarted. I agree with Mr. Pincus and Mr. Yeager. The right to open carry is necessary, however, the actual practice is rarely called for. Part of being an intelligent human being is realizing how your actions can impact how you are perceived. Lord knows the gun community doesnt need any more bad press or division amongst its own ranks. Be smart about what you do. I personally feel no press is good press for the gun community. Heres a radical idea. Why dont we try to effect legislative change that will actually be effective in keeping guns out of the hands of the criminal and mentally ill. Then there wont be anymore negative backlash surrounding legal gun ownership. That being said, I am absolutely an advocate of 2nd ammendment rights, but lets face it; changes need to be made. 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