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Rob Pincus owns and operates ICE Training

164 COMMENTS

  1. There’s an ass-clown that I see open carrying every now and again at a coffee shop by my house. .38 snubbie, no thumb-break or any kid of retention on the holster. I’m pretty sure I could walk up to him and take his gun off him before he even knew what was going on. All open carry does is make you look like a clown.

      • Maybe I should suggest to him that he leave the .38 at home and get a red nose and some big floppy shoe instead… Or at least get a thumb-brake holster and a sturdier belt.

        Btw, if an Evil Doer sees you going into a store with a spendy revolver on your hip, that’s a good clue for them to watch where you park your car. Chances are if you’ve got an expensive revolver, you’ve got other expensive stuff in the car. And no, the fact that you have a gun on you while you’re 100 yards away and inside a store wont keep the stuff you left on the front seat of your car safe.

        Guns are just like anything else. If it’s expensive, don’t flash it around.

  2. I tend to agree.
    Once again, the debate is whether or not it is tactically better. For me that is not a concern. I don’t OC just because I don’t need the unwanted attention as OC is almost never done where I live.

    All that said, tomorrow I am going fishing, and will carry OC, just cause I can.

  3. I’m going to sum up all comments that this article will get in one post just to save TTAG’s bandwidth;

    “You are an ass-clown if you don’t do things the way I do them”.

    Just the usual “I am all about freedom and laws, well – unless I find it questionable, then I’m not quite so much about freedom and laws” people will be posting.

    There, you can lock the comments now.

      • Amen – preach it. Pincus is not the end all for SD either. I suppose the owners of this site are expecting him to turn water into wine next.

        If I am on my tractor mowing my field I really don’t want to bother with an IWB carry gun for obvious reasons. Same for when I am hiking, fishing, and hunting.

        Because firearms, hard as it is to believe for GI Joe wanna-be idiots, can be used for other things than SD.

        • When I am in the city however….nobody knows that I am packing a firearm. No need to make the sheep crazy.

        • I agree that hand guns are used for more than SD. Actually, on a farm, a Ruger Single Six or Bearcat is not all that of a ridiculous weapon to bring along.

      • Um… I like pie, right there at the beginning of the video they mentioned that they weren’t talking about doing outdoorsy things like riding tractors and going fishing…

    • Or we could just go with the usual asking someone who is anti-OC to please provide every day data pertaining to someone who is OCing being targeted prior to a crime because they are an obstacle.

      Don’t hold your breath, they just sort of fade away after presented with such a request.

      Criminals are opportunistic and only want the path of least resistance. I bet if someone where to take the time to perform a non-bias test it would show that someone who is CC is far more likely to become part of a criminal situation than someone who is OCing.

      Logic tell us if a criminal sees someone OC outside a gas station they will either wait for them to leave or move on to somewhere else. Why the hell risk getting shot.

      If a criminal sees someone outside a gas station and perceived unarmed (CC) he might go ahead and do the deed cause the only one between him and the cashier is some unarmed dude.

      I know, logic hurts. They have no idea if the person OC is a cop, military or just a civilian. Cops come in all shapes and sizes so its not like most of us can spot a cop in off duty cloths.

      I OC 90% of the time. Why? I live in Georgia and the summers are muggy and hot and concealing ain’t exactly all that efficient when you don’t have extra clothing to help. I bet a lot of the people anti-OC live in cold weather states where its easy to have a jacket on.

      • data pertaining to someone who is OCing being targeted prior to a crime because they are an obstacle

        They might become the target of the crime. The bad guys just devise a plan to ambush the OC person and steal the gun.

        • Or the Evil Doer notices that the OC dude has a spendy S&W and decides to go checkout the OC dude’s car while the OC dude is shopping. Kiss good bye to whatever you had in your car OC dude.

        • And you might get hit by 747 falling from the sky as you sleep in your bed.

          Put up or shut up.

          Provide data please.

        • And how does someone magically know which car belongs to the person OCing?

          And what data do you have to propose that someone who OC equals valuables in the car? I OC and don’t have anything worth stealing in my car.

          Once again, put up or shut up.

          Provide data please.

        • I’ve been OCing on 4 years and Ive never been the victim of opportunity nor has my vehicle ever been broken into.

          That is a fact. Lets see yours. I won’t hold my breath, but I will see if you have any facts or just more “But…But…But…” armchair commando tier 1 tactical explanation.

          Think I am full of crap? Prove it.

          I’ll wait patiently….

    • As noted in the video, “freedom” isn’t the issue. Carrying a gun is something you should do for protection, not political attention. As Grant Cunningham has said, Political Activism for something you can already do is pretty weak…

      • I don’t carry mine OC for a political statement.

        Because if you are saying that if you are not doing it for political reasons then you are OK;

        a. you don’t convey that even by throwing in a one liner “And we don’t mean…”

        b. the people watching aren’t going to pick-up on that. You are simply adding more propaganda to the fire. I’ve always said the worst enemy of the 2A are its own advocates because these guys attack their own kind. Unless someone is breaking a law, going on the record with this regurgitated non-sense is nothing helping your brother, its just creating sub–cultures.

        What do you have to say now?

        • Same thing….. and, trying to hide behind a second amendment flag while doing something that has had a proven negative effect on gun rights and the imag of gun owners as responsible is ridiculous.

          “my kind” are people who carry guns for he defense of themselves or others.

        • Using California as a basis for your “negative impact” argument isn’t exactly fighting fair.

          Seriously. Talk about stacking the deck. You’ve taken a state that is rooted in anti-gun bafoonery and used that as the basis of your argument.

        • “stacked deck” Really? The deck is always stacked against ass-clownery…

          Me: “here is some evidence”
          You: “that doesn’t count”
          Me: “oh…”

          I’m out…… call me when actual logic is in play.

  4. Garbage video.

    Ill just state for the sake of clarity:THERE IS NO ONE UNIVERSAL STANDARD OF CARRY!

    For some people concealed carry is the best way to do things. For others, open carry is the best way to do things. For an example of one area where Open Carry -in an urban environment-makes sense, look at business security. If you run a shop which is open to the public like a gun store,gas station, or jeweler ,open carry serves two purposes. One, it serves as a deterrent for crooks looking at an easy robbery. Two, should a planned hit of the business take place time will be of supreme import.On the street there’s some minimal warning of a criminal attack about to happen. In a robbery, the first clue of bad tidings is when someone pulls a weapon.

    Life would be so much better if all these “tactical professionals” understood that one size does not fit all.

    • So, explain who open carry is “better” for… I’m open to ideas. Also, if you thing a black powder rifle is “better” for some people, I’d be open to your ideas on how moden firearms don’t fit everyone…

      • Better and Best are opinion based, its when you try and pass one or the other off as superior or wron and don’t provide facts for those claims that you become part of the propaganda machine.

        Just like I ask everyone, provide hard data that shows CC is superior. Take any angle you want. Tactical, political, changes of being robbed, first targeted, etc etc.

        Pick ANY one and provide me hard data.

    • They sort of do look ridiculous, now that you mention it.
      There are places and times for open carry.
      There are places and times for concealled carry.
      Use good judgement when and where.

        • 100 degree weather.

          Please provide me an example of how I can conceal a G17 with a T-Shirt and shorts, or jeans.

          If your only answer is “Well use a smaller gun…” then you lose the debate. Not everyone is fortune enough to own multiple weapons.

          I’ll await your answer Rob.

        • I feel your pain LLARMS. Summers average 112° here in Phoenix. I struggled with the 1911 I initially bought but managed to save pennies till I could add something smaller. If you enjoy your G17 there are some really good deals on police trade-in Glocks.

        • I have more than one gun, it was just an example and a truth, not everyone can stash an armory of weapons.

          If I live in a state that stayed cold year round I would be CC year round simply by wearing everyday gear for that type of weather, aka a jacket.

          There are so many flaws in the anti-OC argument and when push comes to shove none of them can stand up to the challenge.

        • @LLARMS30813, I CC a G17 everyday. I live in Lower Alabama where we have triple digit heat, plus heat index, plus high humidity. Let’s just say it can get hot here in the summer months.

          I use a Kholster (www.kholster.com) IWB holster for my Glock 17 and carry it on me EVERY DAY. My work clothes are a polo shirt (tucked in) and blue jeans (or slacks depending on the pay planned). My weekends I am in cargo shorts and a t-shirt (usually untucked). If I am dressed, I am wearing my holster and weapon. I have been CC’ing this was for almost a year, and in that time I have only been called out once “if I was wearing a gun” and that was because I was bent over in a weird angle and the butt of the gun pulled my shirt out.

          I am not lean and mean, I am a little pudgy around the middle. I normally wear about a 34″ waist pants. For my holster, I go up to a 36″ and I wear an XL t-shirt (normal is L, but the little extra keeps me from printing).

          It can be done. I do it everyday. The trick is to take time, look at the clothes you are wearing and make sure there is just enough blouse in them to hide the weapon.

  5. Video seem to me to be someone trying to sell me something.

    Remember folks caveat emptor always caveat emptor.

  6. As someone who has had the cops called on me for staging a photo for my HS drama class in my own garage (seriously, whoever called it in called it “devil porn”. I shit you not.) I kinda, sorta agree with these guys. If we could roll back the clock 150 years and Jane Soccer-Mom wouldn’t call in the National Guard over a cap gun, I think open carry certainly has a valuable deterrence value. Nowadays though I’m positive it just causes more problems than it solves. This isn’t new either, sword canes became popular for a reason.

  7. Open carry in Virginia is a state Constitutional right so I protected from police harassment. The phrase I like to use for whether I will exercise my right is usual and customary. If I walk around Arlington, Virginia with my gun showing someone is probably going to get upset. I have done it in the park at night but there aren’t many people out to notice. If I am out in Warrenton nobody will bat an eyelash. They see guns all the time outside of Northern Virginia.

    I take the point that we are all Second Amendment ambassadors and we should exercise our rights in such a way that we teach people that law abiding citizens who carry are net plus for the community. The reason that people don’t get bent out of shape in the Valley or out West is that open carry is not unusual. The question is will open carrying normalize it or lead restriction. If the latter then I agree carry concealed but it not judicious use of open carry may expand the public’s acceptance of gun rights

  8. There is NO reason for any citizen to open carry a weapon in today’s society. This is not the Wild West nor the OK Corral. For those insecure enough that they feel they MUST carry a weapon, then carry it concealed and be done with it. You can have your weapon, and don’t need to strut around town flashing it to everyone. No need to disturb or upset the rest of society just because you feel inadequate without a gun hanging off your hip. Besides, you just might run into a real criminal that will kick your butt with your own gun one day. At least concealed, you might maybe hopefully have a chance of getting off a shot. If you can hit anything under stress, that is.

  9. Can someone tells me why cops don’t CC?

    I mean if its a superior way to carry, surely this will be an easy question.

    (Also don’t even mention them being “trained” – I think anyone who has been shooting for any amount of time has learned that most cops qualify once a year and never pick up that gun again to shoot it)

      • In other words, you don’t have an answer?

        I’ve asked some key questions in this discussion, you have yet to tactical any of them.

        Do you or do you not have data that proves CC is superior than OC?

        Do you or do you not have data that shows data that OCing has resulted in more bodily harm, death, or “target first” situations?

        Why don’t cops CC if its superior method of carrying?

        • Choosing ingnore my answers and reposting the same questions/comments in other threads doesn’t make my answers magically disappear…

          If you have a uniform on and are paid to engage bad guys, OC is a completely different thing…. But something tells me you wouldn’t understand that.

  10. Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.

    If open carry trips your trigger then by all means do so. If concealed carry is your preferred method, go for it. I personally feel a mix of conceal and open carry is a wonderful thing. Keep the bastards on their toes. If a couple of ne’er do wells case a gas station but happen to see someone at the pumps or in the store open carrying and decide to take their business elsewhere then score one for the good guys. If a couple of ne’er do wells commence with a robbery and one or both of them gets shot by a CCW’er then fine, score another for the good guys. Word gets around. Personally I’ve open carried but didn’t like the fact that someone paying attention to me could invariably find an opportunity to snatch my heater. I now carry concealed every time I leave the house.

    I think some folks get into a “black and white” mindset in regards to self-defense training. Although the “experts” bring a lot to the table I don’t feel their methods are the panacea some folks think they are.

    Judging by the almost daily reports of DGU’s I see the average haven’t-been-to-a-high-end-class gun owner is managing to do just fine when the chips are down. Am I bashing training and those who take it? Not at all. I think it’s an outstanding thing to do but I also don’t see the average gun owner being functionally inferior without it.

    • All thing being equal, that is a well articulated opinion…. The problem is, I’m not a neutral bystander, I am a professional teacher and consultant that makes a living providing the best information I can in regard to personal defense. Gun types, techniques, method of carry….

      • And so you should! Your services and advice are to the betterment of every shooter under your tutelage. One of these days I hope to save the pennies for professional training.

  11. Rob Pincus, I like your style. First you decisively end any justification for carrying the stupid sub-compact 1911s, then you decisively end any justification for carrying openly. Both thorny pet peeves in my opinion 🙂

    Nothing irritates me more than people using their firearms as a political statement. I am strongly supportive of the 2nd amendment, but believe in being the “quiet professional type”, humbly practicing your right while being aware of those that seek to infringe upon it and make lawful gun owners look like idiots.

  12. “I’ve been OCing on 4 years and Ive never been the victim of opportunity nor has my vehicle ever been broken into.”

    I’ve not been carrying at all for 43 years and I’ve never had my car broken into or been the victim of a crime. ;-).

    “And how does someone magically know which car belongs to the person OCing?”

    Easy, they watch parking lots and see who gets out of what car. Or they see you with a spendy gun and watch three days in a row at 8.00AM at Starbuck’s and so they watch you leave, see what car you got into, and show up a little earlier the next day…

    Look, a couple of my cousins used to rip people off back in the day and I’m just telling you what they did. They were quite successful thieves and as far as we know the police never had a clue of what they were up too. Thieves look for people with expensive stuff and then they track down where that person might have more expensive stuff and see if they can take it.

    • “I’ve not been carrying at all for 43 years and I’ve never had my car broken into or been the victim of a crime. ”

      That was my point. Thanks for backing me up.

      The whole “what if…” argument is rooted in playing on peoples emotions.

      What if you got hit by a 747 when you woke up tomorrow…

      What if you wear suspenders AND a belt….

      Blah blah blah.

      I have asked repeatedly for someone to share some data or prove the whole anti-OC thing. Not one single person yet has stepped up to the plate. All these guys are capable of are poisoning the minds of people who don’t know any better or more propaganda.

  13. Regarding Law Enforcement Carry, that’s a two sided coin.

    1: Generally speaking, uniformed officers simply can not conceal all the crap on their duty belts therefore it would be impossible to carry their primary firearm concealed. Radio, cuffs, Taser, batton, magazines etc. It’s a lot of gear. That being said, many still carry a back up gun or “BUG” concealed.

    2: Plain Clothes officers carry concealed a vast majority of the time . Sure there are exceptions in hotter climates etc. but a majority of plain clothes officers I’ve seen carry concealed.

    • If I carry a gun, 2 mags, mini-flashlight, small knife, cell phone, wallet what makes you think being a non-cop doesn’t qualify me for the same thing?

      I probably varies from city to city but in Georgia people would be more strung out if they saw you printing a concealed weapon than just openly carrying it.

      People who are anti-OC are nothing more than like the people who want stricter gun laws.

      Since when have gun laws been honored by criminals?

      After you answer than when was the last time you saw or even heard about a criminal OCing a pistol, no less in a HOLSTER.

  14. Rob and James –both EXCELLENT instructors–have offered excellent advice here. One thing that I did not see in the discussion is open carry is a neon light that says “shoot me first” or “steal by gun by assaulting me from behind.”

    David Kenik
    Armedresponsetraining.com

    • “One thing that I did not see in the discussion is open carry is a neon light that says “shoot me first” or “steal by gun by assaulting me from behind.”

      We’ll discuss it as soon as you PROVE it occurs.

      This is like the 4th or 5th time I have asked someone stating this or show us some data on this.

      NONE HAVE ANSWERED.

      Are you going to answer or slink away as well?

      • Sorry, but I have not studied every incident that has ever occurred with someone carrying a gun. My conclusion is simple logic based on the well-studied thought process of the criminal mind and what I would do if the roles were reversed.

        Conversely, I have not seen you display any proof that it has not happened.

        • Nice, someone asks you to prove it and your response is “No you prove it!”

          The burden is not on me.

          (But heres a hint; I don’t have any because there is none. What a shocker?!)

          Why don’t you just man up and say, “I don’t have any proof that is just my opinion”?

          That way we acknowledge its just your opinion and you acknowledge that your opinion is not based in any sort of fact.

          You have a right to opinion. Use it, just don’t use it as fact.

        • “My conclusion is simple logic based on the well-studied thought process of the criminal mind and what I would do if the roles were reversed.”

          Have you considered the simple logic that the criminal mind might react to an OCer with the thought “Hey, he’s armed, instead of messing with him I’ll pick a softer target”?

        • No logic tell me a criminal always finds the path of least resistance.

          So logic tells me he would say, “Oh damn that dude has a gun, lets go find someplace else”.

          Criminals don’t rob body builders, they rob little old ladies a majority of the time.

          There are exceptions to the rule, like the guys who robbed the banks with AK/beta drums – but alas, the exception, not the rule.

        • It is impossible to prove a negative and I question your intelligence for asking someone to do so. Arguments not based in fact are always doomed to failure. If any of the scenarios you “experts” keep vomiting forth had ever happened, I’m sure it would have been cited many times over by the anti OC crowd. I can respect people who have the training necessary to be instructors, but I really think making videos such as this one without one shred of data to back it up is irresponsible and arrogant. I don’t care how many class you’ve taught, you don’t know what is best for me. I don’t thing taking an assload of courses to become an instructor makes you the be all end all of self defense. If Audi Murphy had made that video I would take it to heart. From these two guys, I call it bullshit.

      • Here’s some proof: There have been numerous murders of gun owners at gun ranges simply to steel there guns: Shoot me first.

        This thread reminds me of the adage: You can not use truth and logic to argue someone out of a position that they did not use truth and logic to get into.

        • Rabbi can you link me to just a handful of these stories. Not that you are lying, but the truth of the matter is everyone on the internet knows everything.

          Show me the links.

          And when you are done showing me the links then show me the data on percentage rates of these incidents when compared to everyting else.

          And obviously someone willing to go to a gun range to rob people are way above your average crack head criminal.

          But, I’ll wait for those links. Just a couple, doesnt have to be “hundreds”.

        • I am sorry, but I am not going to spoon feed you.

          Try googling “gun range murder”

          And yes, criminal attack cops all the time, as well as body builders. Do some research.

        • Rabbi you are missing the point.

          Everyone has done everything.

          Criminals and scientist a-like. The point being that if 1 out of 100 people robbed are body builders… you know what, screw it; no point in trying to debate with you.

          You are in “blinders” mode and refuse to acknowledge valid questions or attempt to answer them.

          Spoon feed me, lol, I will assume that translates into “I can’t back up my point” back pedal.

          Just FYI you can google “open carrier robbed” in google and get lots of hits. Thats not the point, the percentage data is what I want.

          I can google, “man has sex with goat” and get hits too. Doesn’t mean its normal.

          I guess I just add you to my list of people in this thread who can’t answer for their statements.

          I don’t have to show you any OC stats. Know why? I never said OC was better. I never said CC was worse.

          I only challenge the people who feel the need to say one is better or worse. If you can’t prove why its worse with real data then pound sand.

        • Wow..You ask for links to prove my point and I tell you how to find them yourself which is not good enough for you now.

          I give up.

      • Sorry twency I re-read the post and see you were talking to him and not me.

        You are absolutely correct.

        Robbers don’t rob cops.

        Robbers don’t rob body builders.

        Robbers don’t rob black belts.

        Robbers do rob little old ladies, scared women and drunk people just to name a few.

        There are exceptions to the rule; but only those few rare exceptions.

        Criminals will always go the path of least resistance. A majority of them honestly do not have any interest in dying over a wallet that may or may not have $20 in.

        People keep bringing up “my training, my job, etc etc”.

        You have no idea what I do for a living. Maybe I just don’t feel like boasting about it. Maybe I want my words to be on their own merit, not have merit because of who or what I do.

  15. Maybe it’s just Georgia, you know, one of the southern states. But I’ve never had any problems OC’ing. No one grabbing their children and fleeing, even when their kids come up to me and talk to me about my gun while I’m at a public park watching my little boy play.

    I’ve only had positive and friendly conversations with strangers who happen to notice my firearm. Most people are oblivious and don’t even see it. Which is funny, since I carry in an OWB retention duty holster, and it’s a full-sized pistol. The proof, is that I once asked a lady if an unfamiliar building I was about to enter was a government building. She wondered why I had asked, and I told her I did not want to enter if it was a government building because of my firearm, and it might be against the law if I went in. She then took notice, and was shyly shocked that she had not seen my gun until then. And we had already said hello and spoken briefly prior to my question!

    So no, I don’t carry for the attention, because I am not naive enough to believe that most people notice.

    Since my gun weighs about 38oz, it would not be very easy to conceal (unless I threw another shirt on top, which I will not do when it’s hot) nor be very comfortable to stuff inside my waistband.

    So, the fact that I just happen to prefer OC, and that I’ve had no problems while doing it, does that make me a “bad ambassador” for gun rights?

    Because I OC, I’ve had the opportunity to help educate people on their rights and the law by answering their questions. Something that never occurs when I on rare occassion CC. Seems to me that I’ve been a better ambassador for gun rights than you CC-only prunes out there.

    And thanks for your concern about any valuables in my car. If it does get broken into while I’m not around, at least my gun will remain holstered and no one will get hurt. Y’all trying to be my momma? LOL

    I say live and let live. OC or CC or NC (never carry) to your heart’s content.

    Those who spout “wild west” nonsense are certainly ignorant that things were a lot tamer in the old west towns then when most men OC’ed, than in the cities today where criminals CC virtually 100%. I have nothing to hide. When was the last time you saw a criminal OC a pistol?

    Ignorance must be bliss, boys. When y’all grow up and become men, and pull your noses out of other peoples’ business, you might not be so judgemental of those who open carry their firearm.

  16. Really? We can’t think of something more productive to discuss that would… oh, I don’t know… actually advance the right to keep and bear arms politically than some more infighting, us vs. them between the “only concealed” and open carry camps?

    Rob – How much of a time penalty does adding a concealment garment to a strong side belt carry add to 1) Your draw / present / shoot & 2) the average student draw / present / shoot times?

    Seriously, this is how we lose folks. As the Virginian above brought up, but maybe didn’t fully articulate, open was the only method of legally carrying where alcohol was sold for over 10 years. Those dangerous family restaurants….We learned to deal with open carry. All of us, not just gun people. Even people who live right next to DC. We need to find a way to solve this before it divides us even worse.

    So Rob, you said that if we want to make a political statement, stand in a park and hand out pamphlets. That’s pretty narrow minded, but ok.

    How about this – where is your public comment opposing ATFs plan to register multiple sales of certain rifles? Or how about your public comments supporting the repeal of the ban on firearms being carried in National Parks & Wildlife refuges? A little leading by example wouldn’t hurt. Both of these administrative actions are still accessible online or via FOIA. Surely someone of your profile can show us all unwashed masses who may accept open carry that you back up your words with deeds. Or maybe show us the video of you standing in a park handing out pamphlets?

    This is an argument that simply doesn’t need to happen, perpetuated by people who simply have some interest in controlling the behavior of others. Whether it’s financial, personal, bigotry, discomfort or seeking blog headlines. This sort of “ideological purity test” applied to gun owners only serves to fracture is into smaller, less effective factions fight in different directions. Anyone prior service should understand this.

    If we divide & fracture our political forces by alienating those of us on the same side, people like Mike Bloomberg & Sarah Brady won’t have to lift a finger to take our effectiveness away, we will destroy ourselves politically. Maybe there are less effective means of open carry available that are more 1st Amendment than 2nd Amendment. An AR pistol of some kind maybe? A 500 S&W perhaps? or maybe that person only has money for one gun, one holster… Or maybe they have a preference for that gun which they are proficient. Or maybe it’s the gun their mom or dad gave them. And many more… We need to be less concerned about how they carry and more concerned that they carry and are proficient with what they carry, no matter the method of carry.

    • I don’t actually see this as fracturing from within. Maybe I’m dense but in this thread I’ve seen a spirited debate within otherwise closed ranks. I haven’t seen any “eff you’s” or “you’re an idiot’s” so I think we’re doing fine challenging the finer points of what we as individuals hold dear.

      Rereading this I sound like a fuckin’ hippie but so be it.

    • I can only say all the effort you took to type that will go largely ignored from anyone really interested in learning and expanding their mind.

      When presented with sound logic they loudest usually can’t answer with an equally logical response. If they do muster anything it will be based in opinion and not fact.

      Sorry. 🙁

    • I’ve been in the Capitol building lobbying for gun rights, I’ve participated in Congressional Hunting Events and discussed gun ownership with lawmakers, I’ve been on World News Tonight positively portraying those interested in training or personal defense… My RKBA / 2nd Amendment rights pedigree is well established… No need to go there.

      • yes, there really is a need to go there since you made the point.

        So… did you bother to log your public comments? These were nationwide issues, and were tough to miss. Probably most of the posters & readers here have done their fair share of capitol building lobbying.

  17. Ok, this is a response to LLARMS30813.

    I don’t care one way or another whether you open carry or not, but I have to point out a few things about your posts.

    1. I understand your whole point about wanting people to provide data. However, I could ask the same thing of you. Show me data that supports that OCing does NOT put you at a disadvantage. You and I both know that nobody can provide said data on either side because nobody has compiled anything. Just because no data has been compiled does not mean the argument is wrong…it doesn’t make it right either. Also, you made the following statement:

    “Criminals are opportunistic and only want the path of least resistance. I bet if someone where to take the time to perform a non-bias test it would show that someone who is CC is far more likely to become part of a criminal situation than someone who is OCing.”

    How do you demand that people provide data to support their argument and then turn around and make the above statement without providing any data of your own? Frankly, that is a very poor debate strategy, which brings me to my next point.

    2. You said “Can someone tells me why cops don’t CC? I mean if its a superior way to carry, surely this will be an easy question.”

    Well, cops in uniform are already expected to be carrying, so the element of surprise and discretion is lost. However, last time I checked, plain-clothes cops do carry concealed. Sarcastic retorts like that one are just silly, in my opinion.

    3. I am from Georgia too, so I am all too familiar with the 100 degree heat and humidity. You asked “Please provide me an example of how I can conceal a G17 with a T-Shirt and shorts, or jeans.” I am 5′ 8″ and about a 32″ waist, so not a big guy that can easily hide large objects on his person. I carried a Sig P226 for years in a crappy IWB uncle mikes holster with a t-shirt and shorts or jeans (poor college student and the gun was given to me). My Sig is both heavier and thicker than your G17, but I CC successfully for several years until I could buy something smaller. Believe me, I know it isn’t comfortable, but sometimes you just have to suck it up.

    4. I agree with you that the best carry form is a matter of opinion and to each his own. I can definitely draw faster from OC than CC and I do train. As Mr. Pincus pointed out, a self defense situation can catch you off guard, so there won’t be any smooth range type draws. Accordingly, I find it very difficult to draw one handed from a CC posture. Some would say “drop what your holding and use two hands, stupid.” My coffee? Sure. My phone? Yep. My, newborn child?….yeah OC definitely has the advantage there. So, I agree that it has its advantages. I do carry open from time to time, but only on rare occasions. Mainly, I carry concealed most of the time because for me (logically) its advantages outweigh those of OC and discretion is the better part of valor.

    5. At the end of the day, do what suits you best, I don’t care. That is your choice, I I fully support your choice and right to carry however you want. It is also your right to argue for your choice of carry. Cool, go with what you believe. Just my two cents, if they are even worth that much.

    • Charles5,

      “How do you demand that people provide data to support their argument and then turn around and make the above statement without providing any data of your own? Frankly, that is a very poor debate strategy, which brings me to my next point.”

      I think you took the comment out of context. The point I was trying to make was that that when viewing things from the eyes of a criminal, someone who is CCing is just like any other possible target. He doesn’t know youre armed so he just would assume you “target: normal”

      Where is if he sees someone with a gun logic (not data sorry) would tell me this would be his thought pattern; “Is he a cop? Is he security?” and then weigh the risk vs. reward of possibly getting shot over a few hundred dollars or less.

      It has long been common knowledge that criminals always go the path of least resistance. Being a criminal pretty much means you are not willing to do hard work or you wouldn’t be a criminal to start with.

      As far as me proving data that OC is better or worse, you hit the nail on the head that the data does not exist, or its so few and far in between its not substantial to make data.

      THe difference between me and the anti-OC person is I never said “OC is better” or “CC is worse” – if you feel I have I challenge you to point out where I did.

      I’ve done nothing more than defend or attempt to crush the anti-OC propaganda without saying one bad thing about CC.

      I will say this, I do find to tend that people who OC or don’t care if you OC or CC are generally more pleasant people to be around or speak to.

      Once someone starts speaking in absolutes (cc good, oc sucks) it just reveals their incapacity to look at things from someone elses shoes.

  18. Dear thread,

    No one has to to to give me any hard data on OC victims vs. CC victims.

    Can anyone provide this data for me? So far everyone I have asked for this has not risen to the challenge.

    Anyone? Anyone? Beuller?

      • Aw, come on Rob is that the best you can do? You know that Kalicommifornia had been heading down that landslide (stripping away of firearm rights) for a long time. That state is so far left it’s about to fall off the mainland. Most of the sensible people left that state long ago, and the ones that are stuck there are doing their best to unstuck themselves.

        Open carry certainly hasn’t backfired for the majority of states. In fact, more states now are OC friendly than ever before, with no panic or blood in the streets hype that the anti-gunners predicted would occur with friendly carry laws.

        May I assume you make a distinction between ordinary open carry and “OC Activism”?

        • Yes, absolutely… there are definitely two things:

          1. OC for the sake of “I am better able to protect myself or others by Oc’ing”… which I think is wrong.

          2. OC to show people ******** (insert anything), which I think is not only wrong, but reckless and a great disservice to the RKBA movement.

          As far as asking for evidence and then dismissing actual real evidence that OC Activism is a negative: Poor Form.

      • Philip he pulled that one in another response.

        If there was a way to “cheat” in debate, using California would rank up there.

        You are talking about a state that somehow thinks less than 10 bullet mags are less dangerous. Clearly they are not 2A friendly to start with, using that state as a basis of anything firearm related is just herp derp.

        I want data that backs any tactical claims that CC is superior than OC; saying “well in my experience” does not equal fact.

        I want data that backs the “target first” propaganda; show me death percentages of OCers vs. CCers.

        Lets start with those.

      • If your anecdotal evidence is California is all you have, Rob, I have to agree with what others that this argument is a weak one. As a resident of CA I know that the legislature here is constantly, with out pause or misstep, seeking to eliminate firearms ownership in the state. Period. See CS Lewis’s quote about the tyranny of do-gooders. Being a May Issue state UOC was pretty much the only alternative many here had, as most Sheriff’s here don’t see self defense as “Good Cause”. They would’ve come to this point eventually.

        Riddle me this, Rob; How is Arizona handling constitutional carry? 😉

        And I have to object to Yeager’s assertion that OC’ers don’t have a sense of community, or an appreciation of the RBKA struggle, and to his shirt (he gets so pissed when you do that, lol!)…

        Otherwise I do agree with your practical criticisms of open carry.

      • A history of open carry since statehood in 1911 is why Arizona now has constitutional carry–no permits required to carry concealed. When anyone can open carry without a permit, there isn’t a lot of differennce in letting people untuck their shirts.

        Open carry has also been used as a tool for political activism here successfully including getting local government ls to comply with preemption, and getting “no guns” signs taken down from various city and state owned properties.

        Now that we have constitutional carry here there aren’t a lot of good reasons left to open carry in as unless you’re in the desert or fall into the 18-20 year old range where open carry is your only legal option. Open carry has become less common as a result.

        Not all states are the same. CA bans open carry, OK just legalized it. As a whole gun rights are moving forward across the country. If that’s because of or in spite of open carry is a matter of debate.

        I open carried every day for 8 years. For the past 4 I’ve carried concealed. The open carry movement has become a lot more radicalized in recent years, and there are too many people that do it to shock and offend rather than going about their daily business. I also began to find the hyper vigilance mental state it required difficult to maintain and got tired of dumb comments and questions from people I didn’t want to talk to.

        All that said I am glad the option for open carry exists if for no other reason than I am not breaking the law if my shirt accidently comes up and exposes my gun.

        • “I also began to find the hyper vigilance mental state it required difficult to maintain and got tired of dumb comments and questions from people I didn’t want to talk to”

          So when you hide your pistol you’re less aware of what’s going on around you? I don’t find myself ‘hypervigilant’ except when there’s danger. Most of the time I’m aware of who’s around me & roughly where they are (no eyes in the back of my head).

          In the dumb questions department, I hear ya there! When I’m not in the mood for them, I either don’t carry or (if I’m someplace where it’s legal) carry concealed.

  19. I think that’s what it’s all about with “experts” in any field, control. They feel supirior and feel the need to control the minions. That’s the way it works in avaition. Do it my way or we will get you. So we do it their way then go out and get it done while they push pencils. It makes them feel like real men.

    So, with that being said, I think I’ll leave my jacket in the car at Sunday lunch tomorrow. Just so I’m not being controlled by someone who thinks he’s smarter than me.