When you’re out doing your daily shopping and minding your own business, the very last thing you expect is to be tackled to the ground by a complete stranger and put into a choke hold until the police can tear your attacker off. Nevertheless that’s exactly what happened in Hillsborough, Florida yesterday at a local Wal Mart. A man was legally carrying a concealed weapon, and was attacked without warning by a civilian bystander. The local news picks up the story from there . . .
According to the sheriff’s office, Michael Foster, 43, saw Clarence Daniels, 62, in the Walmart parking lot with a gun holstered under his coat.
Foster followed Daniels into the store, put him in a choke-hold and brought him to the ground, the sheriff’s office said. He then started yelling that Daniels had a gun.
A struggle ensued, with Daniels yelling that he had a permit. Security detained both men until deputies arrived.
They confirmed Daniels had a permit for the gun, and arrested Foster.
He is charged with one count of battery.
Personally, I am amazed at the restraint this concealed carry holder displayed. An unknown assailant causing physical harm is pretty much the textbook case for an escalation of force, but the gun remained in the holster and everyone walked away — despite the actions of the freaked out attacker.
It’s a pretty short line of thought to connect this incident to Moms Demand Action and their constant drumbeat against concealed carry in public places. They have whipped up their followers into a thick foamy frothing pile of anti-gun hatred and fear for anyone openly displaying a firearm, and no doubt that attitude contributed to this event.
The one fact that I find most damning is that this person decided to play the hero and tackle the individual himself rather than alerting the local law enforcement or security guards about his concern. And the gun control freaks say we have a hero complex…
I can’t wait to hear this nitwit’s defense.
“i’m a nitwit…” ???
Here’s the Walmart video of the assault:
Thanks for the video link! I like the witness video, and I’m glad he correctly refers to Daniels as the “victim.” Mom’s demanded action and got some today! I can see it is working out well . . .
What about that second guy in the khaki shorts that helped the attacker at the end of the video? Did he get charged too?
The nitwit appears to have been incited to violence by “calls” to attack legal firearms carry.
Sue, sue , sue.
That was the first thought that came to my mind too. Go see a couple neck and back doctors and sue for everything the guys got. Then use the money to buy a couple friends and family members new guns and send this a**hole the pictures of what his $$$ did.
Wonder if Mr. Foster has a facebook account. And if he’s a member of a certain org…
If he is a member of a certain org or if he has significant ties to them he and they could be prosecuted under RICO statutes for conspiracy. This would also entitle the victims to treble any damage awards in federal court.
Even if he is NOT a member, he may have a chance at suing MDA and their ilk for its part in inciting this act of violence against him. There membership has published accounts advocating this type of criminal behavior.
What a dumbass
I wonder if Mr. Foster attempted to tackle the cops when they arrived on the scene with guns on their hips.
When he sees undercover cops:
Tackles the cop, grabs gun, and shouts out to the nearest homeless person with schizophrenia:
“Hey! Hey, you there: take this gun!”
Foster: Whimsically re-distributing guns for Moms Demand Action since 2013. Because Shannon.
Imagine the consequences if the moron took down a cop.
The consequences are he would be dead, is my guess.
If he had done it to me I simply would have shot him.
Paranoid white guy with hero complex assault 62 year old black man for shopping.
No way. This story is complete fiction. We all know that armed people (even those with no criminal history) are seething cauldrons of rage ready to explode at the slightest provocation … which means the concealed carrier would have shot his attacker and everyone else in sight at the first opportunity. But that didn’t happen so this event didn’t happen.
To that end, where’s the good reverend and Race Czar, Al Sharptongue on this?
Say it with me, children:
“Concealed means concealed”
Because you’ve never made a mistake?
I make mistakes all day every day, but my weapon stays in its holster.. for reasons exactly like this one.
His gun never left the holster. His jacked moved and revealed his holstered gun.
It looked like it stayed in its holster until one of the three stooges took it away from its owner and started passing it around to bystanders.
Oh, look at that: looks like Lance made a big derp there…
So, pocket carry has many disadvantages. But it has one HUGE advantage: you never, ever have to remove the gun due to comfort issues, and then replace it. It is the most comfortable and concealed way to carry.
Granted, it is harder to access when sitting than some other options, and you have to chose a small flat gun and a good pocket holster (Uncle George, Talon, etc.) but done right, no one will be able to tell that you are carrying.
In my state your weapons carry permit allows you to carry open or concealed. Or some combination of the two if you’d prefer.
I think Florida is concealed with an allowance for an inadvertent exposure.
My state does as well. In an ideal world the open display of a defensive weapon would be a non-issue anywhere one could wish to go.. but this isn’t an ideal world. I have the same desire to keep my weapon hidden from the prying eyes of criminals and anti’s alike.
He was retrieving his firearm from the car and putting it in his holster, and the “hero” saw him do it. It’s sometimes impossible to completely hide such an action from a passerby, and so long as you don’t do it in an alarming fashion that might be considered brandishing, you shouldn’t get hassled for it, though your mileage may vary. (IANAL)
This idiot clearly saw a black man with a gun and assumed “crack head, going to rob the Wal-Mart”. Even I, who has a very high bar for when the race card can properly be played, can see this clear bias — racism plus hoplophobia makes for a noxious combination. He should have followed the man in and called him quietly to the attention of security. They would have talked to him about it, found out he had a permit, and that would have been the end of it. Instead, this guy had to play the hero, and only avoided getting shot because this carrier was seriously calm, cool, and collected.
If someone jumps ME like that, he’s probably going to be introduced to my friend nikyo, at the very least, and find himself chewing linoleum. I nearly put a Moonie in traction for grabbing me from behind to give me literature.
I’m willing to give the guy the benefit of the doubt on the race issue, but i wouldn’t be surprised if you’re correct. He’s still an idiot, regardless.
Why should he have followed the guy and then alerted the security? He had no reason to believe that anything illegal was going on. That’d be the same as seeing someone get in their car and drive away and then alerting the police that there might be an unlicensed driver driving around. When we see someone carrying a gun (open or concealed) in a state where carrying a gun is legal, shouldn’t we assume that the person is doing so legally, unless and until we have probable cause to believe otherwise? As a side note, if a wanna be WalMart cop tried to jack me up about carrying a gun I wouldn’t feel any need to pay any attention to him, would you?
You forget that some American subjects have hatred and contempt for those of us American citizens exercising our God given not state granted rights. Never forget that those cowards will call the police on you and hopefully you don’t get the cowardly cops that shoot first like John Crawford III received. Side note any man hassles me about exercising my God given and Constitutional rights needs to understand that the purpose of me being armed is so that no man may infringe upon my life,liberty, or pursuits of happiness while air and blood still course through me.
The white guy that profiled and then attacked the old black man would not be able to afford the consequences of trying that upon me or in my presence. When the cops arrived on location all of us witnesses would declare we just saw the worst case of suicide ever, when the attacker shot himself multiple times in chest and head.
The best way to hide it is not to do it. In the holster when you leave the house, don’t take it out until you get home.
Sitting in a car can be uncomfortable with a holster. Also, it’s very difficult to draw from a holster under a seatbelt. So many of us attach our holsters to the car.
Judging by the fact the armed guy wasn’t arrested, he didn’t do anything illegal. So, he is free unholster in his car or carry as he pleases, if some anti gun clown doesn’t like, tough.
One has to be very careful when approaching some people:
re “If someone jumps ME like that, he’s probably going to be introduced to my friend nikyo”
Say it with me. Open Carry. Don’t want to be treated like a criminal? don’t act like one.
Since what he did was completely legal, how do you think the man was acting like a criminal? The idiot on question saw this man holstering his gun in the parking lot, which he then concealed. Does this sound like the actions of a criminal? Please don’t tell me you are an advocate for the second amendment.
Since Open Carry is illegal in Florida, what you’re saying is a non sequitor.
And you are a complete moron; I can’t carry in the VA hospital, so it stays in my car and goes BACK into the holster when I get ready to drive away.
Who are you even talking to? In what way is it moronic to point out that open carry in Florida is illegal when I’m responding to someone above who seems to think conceal carry is “looking like a criminal”. But open carry would actually BE being a criminal?
How on earth did my one line of commentary there rile you up to the point you decided to name call?
Aerindel, in some states open carry is not just “acting like a criminal”, it is an actual criminal offense. Your advice is about as thoughtful as that of thise anti-gun nuts’ video advising children to steal their parents’ guns and turn them in at school.
You are fvcking stupid.
The reason why he got tackled was because his gun was seen. Hence, open carry would have resulted in the same outcome.
Dont turn this into a open carry debate. Dont you buttknobs have some politicians’ offices to storm into?
Florida’s law does allow for inadvertent display:
…It is not a violation of this section for a person licensed to carry a concealed firearm as provided in s. 790.06(1), and who is lawfully carrying a firearm in a concealed manner, to briefly and openly display the firearm to the ordinary sight of another person, unless the firearm is intentionally displayed in an angry or threatening manner, not in necessary self-defense.
It’s an inadvertent, incidental and momentary glimpse of a personal defense firearm, for crying out loud, followed by a violent overreaction by a Walter Mitty-esque senior-citizen-basher.
No need on your part to slither in with condescending bromides.
Had the armed citizen actually been an undercover cop, the lunatic attacker would be assuming room temperature.
What does an undercover cop have to do with legally articulated deadly force in self defense?
Ambush attack with a choke hold initially applied. Ambush attacks allow a much higher use of self defense force.
Chokes are deadly force. Can cause grave bodily harm/crippling injury to the brain either by restricting air or blood to the brain.
Perp applied deadly force illegally. Ability/Opportunity/Jeopardy or AOJ for legal articulation of deadly force (or simple force).
The CHL holder put no ones life in immediate danger. He was buying creamer. Failed jeopardy portion of three prong test for legal use of deadly force by the perp.
62 year old vicitm was justified to use deadly force immediately to stop the deadly force threat against him.
I’m going to guess that Sean’s point is that the civilian CHL holder exercised a helluva lot more discretion and cool-headedness than your average “trained, professional, only-one-who-should-have-a-gun” cop would have.
I’d say most of the cop incidents we have seen lately are about trained, escalation of force issues brought on by arrestees refusing to comply with lawful orders, and did not include being attacked from behind.
(you can argue all you want on the style / training / implementation of the escalation of force required to detain someone who refuses to comply, but there is NO COMPARISON with this case).
Exactly so, Robert! My point was that the armed citizen ( the black man, victim) was attacked around the neck from behind by the white guy and he would’ve been absolutely justified in using deadly force to stop the attack. Any reasonable person would see that he was in grave danger of severe bodily harm or death. I was trying to illustrate the difference between the victim’s actions and those of an undercover cop. The cop presumably would’ve killed the guy; at least where I live he would have. There are a lot of police shootings in Yellowstone County in my opinion, when you compare the demographics of our county with, say, Cooke County, IL.
I’ve been noticing a phenomenon lately. It seems that either cops are shooting more people or it seems like that due to my awareness of police shootings, or increased reporting of them, or both. Either way, a Billings, Montana cop was just exonerated of shooting an unarmed meth-dealing scumbag just last week. The short version of that case was that the dirtbag was known to the cop, who admitted to be looking for him. The cop approached his car (occupied by three others) for a felony stop, and rather than A.) wait for backup (cop was alone) or B.) approach from the blind spot behind the C pillar, he walked right up on the guy. When the guy didn’t show his hands fast enough, the cop claimed that he was scared for his life, and he shot the guy. I’m not going to cry crocodile tears for the loss of a dirtbag, but I am deeply disturbed that if you’re a cop, justified use of lethal force now includes fear of an imaginary weapon where one doesn’t exist. Apparently, you may now be shot if you are high, stupid or even deaf and don’t comply with a show of hands immediately on a traffic stop.
SO, judging from that standard, I’d say that the victim in the Florida case used much more discretion when it came to escalated force than the police seem to, in my opinion. THAT was my point.
(Incidentally, the cop in the Billings case has one other justified killing on his record, as well. He is not yet 30 years old. Also, the video from the dash cam shows him breaking down in tears after the shooting. He was visibly shaken, but I have to wonder if that was due to taking a life, an adrenaline dump after fear for his own life or maybe the realization that he just killed an unarmed man sitting in a parked car. Only he knows for sure.)
43 year old fat white guy and a fit 62 year old black man. I’d say the fat guy is lucky to be alive.
Unless he is trained in martial arts, he probably doesn’t even know a proper choke hold.
I’m glad everything worked out.
But those biotches at MDA need to STFU before they get someone killed with their rhetoric.
Side note, just hit @momsdemand with the new link saying they almost got a fat white guy killed 🙂
Hell, if you ask me they already have gotten someone killed. Remember the BB-gun guy at another Wal-Mart?
Just what I was thinking. Instead of swatting, he was… fatted?
Anyone else wonder if maybe the gun-owner’s skin color might have had something to do with it? I wouldn’t doubt this moron saw him and thought, “black guy (eek!)+ gun (evil!) = THUGGANGBANGERCRACKHEAD!” Prejudiced bigot [email protected]
I can’t help but think you may be on to something there.
I agree. His motives seem a little biased.
Which means the President should address the public regarding this man being legitimately victimized for his race. Oh wait, this was an actual law-abiding citizen, not a thug, that properly exercises his Constitutional Rights. So, never mind . . .
Yeah, where is Obama with: “He could have been my father”?
That was good for a laugh. Thank you. Except the Affirmative Action in Chief would never claim a law abiding and self-responsible black man as his father or baby daddy as it is called in community organizer tongue.
LMAO @ baby daddy.
Well, Obama’s father was a deadbeat dad and a wife-beater, so saying ” he coulda been my father” is a real insult and condemnation.
Here’s an easy way to tell a legal gun owner, whether a licensed citizen or a police officer, white or black, from a criminal and it works 95% of the time: Is the gun in a holster? If the person is carrying in a holster, they are 95% of the time a good guy. No cop and very few carry licensees will carry in their waistband or some other idiotic thing because they are trained and know that un-holstered carry is a negligent discharge waiting to happen.
Sure, there might be a few bad guys who have picked up on this too, but think about it. I’m right 95% of the time.
But I wonder what MDA and CGSV sycophants have to say?
Moms Demand Assassination of Gun Owners in America head Shannon Watts has weighed in. She’s disappointed police arrested the assailant apparently endorsing unprovoked violence.
Hardly surprising. She has always tacitly approved of any violence toward anyone who disagrees with her organization, and her followers have explicitly called for it.
But we’re the “extremists” for valuing our rights.
Don’t you know? All violence accomplished without aid of a gun is morally righteous violence. Domestic abusers and rapists will be pleased to hear this since most of them don’t use guns.
She needs to be sued for inciting violence.
LMFAO @ “Moms Demand Assasination of Gun Owners in America”
Good catch. Somehow, I am not surprised.
Better screenshot that for posterity before someone saner than her explains to Bloomberg his sockpuppet is off her meds again, and that Twitter account gets closed.
Maybe Mr Daniels can find a lawyer who will sue MDA, Watts, and Bloomberg for conspiracy to swat legal gun carriers.
Wow, what an idiot…was out to save the world from the big bad gun and got arrested for it. LOL. Tool.
I would have liked to see the look on Mr. Foster’s face when he was arrested.
With regard to it not escalating further and the pistol remaining holstered, the video of the incident has been released and it looks like a couple other customers dog piled on. The concealed carrier didn’t stand a chance once it was 3 on 1.
I guess Mr. Daniels failed his permit holders Wal Mart walk?
Good thing nobody swatted him like the guy in the Ohio Wal Mart with the pellet gun.
What this guys needs is a hungry lawyer who can tie the tackler to MDA or csgv and sue into their pockets. Always sue the peeps with the deepest pockets
Yes to this.
Sorry, someone I don’t know puts hands on me, it’s now escalated to a potential lethal threat as I cannot know how far this idiot was going to take it. Lucky fat boy. And probably a rabid CSGV, MDA hero wannabe.
Hope Shannon posted your bail.
He should spend his time in county thinking about how lucky he is that the coroner’s report didn’t list his cause of death as ‘stupidity’.
I wish stupidity could be listed as the official reason of death on coroner’s reports.
The only thing dumber than bringing a knife to a gunfight is forgetting the knife.
But he had righteous indignation. Wasn’t that enough?
@Gov-You raise an important reminder that most of us concealed carriers also carry a knife that would have worked splendidly as an instant headlock removal device, when inserted rapidly over one of your shoulders into something hard until it goes squishy and twist while removing for best results. That is if you can not reach your firearm.
Jason, I also carry a knife. But if you’re in that position your first priority MUST be keeping your firearm secure at all costs. Your second priority should be keeping your knife secure. Some people also carry a back up gun, but if you’re rolling around on the ground wrestling someone 2 decades your junior extra weapons might actually be a liability.
I understand what your saying about the age difference maybe impairing the defensive abilities but I have met some older gentlemen I wouldn’t tangle with, out of respect. In this situation though the thug was target fixated on the gun and being aware of a back up tool readily available for one handed deployment would have stopped or at least stunned the criminal when he saw a four inch blade protruding from his torso allowing you the only seconds you may get. Also if you don’t carry your gun in a retention type holster when both of your hand are occupied on keeping the thugs hands off your gun pulling a Mike Tyson or Dracula on him may help, unless you wear dentures or would rather surrender and die than possibly living with a blood borne disease.
I’m sorry MDA,you were saying something about our paranoid fantasies of swooping in and being heroes?
Well I’m not a 62 black man but I am a 62 year old white man. Fat boy would be dead if he tackled me…
I don’t know that he could have taken an effective shot from that position. You only have a few seconds before blacking out if it was applied properly. If you can get your chin down inside the elbow before the arm closes, it protects your air. Then direct a swift back kick to take out the knee if possible. I hope I can remember all that if it happens to me.
This sounds like a hate crime to me. We need to get the Justice Department involved.
Had he been a plainclothes Cop,Our Hero would be worm dirt..The rest of us have to put up with the assault.
No, the victim was within his rights to defend himself with lethal force.
Maybe this squat jobs intention was to be shot.
Suicide by Concealed Carrier… I hadn’t thought of that angle.
Wow!!! The attacker is lucky to be alive. I learned a long time ago while serving in the military to never give up, to fight until you are dead or unconscious. The fight would have been brutal and dirty, and if I was able to draw, he would have been dead. Afterwards, whatever the outcome, he or his estate would face my attorney in court.
Oh, man — I stumbled onto the Coalition to Stop Gun Violence’s Facebook post about this incident. CGSV’s followers are going bananas over it. There are dozens of posts calling for violence, some deadly, against lawful carriers. (If I may paraphrase: F*** the CHL law, these people should be shot or arrested.)
The other thing that stood out was their abject terror over anyone carrying a gun. Comments like “The guy who tackled the ‘legal’ gunman is a HERO! Who’s to say the gunman wasn’t about to commit a mass shooting?” were rampant.
For some reason I am surprised by the quantity, illogic and virulence of these comments. Call me naive, but I just hadn’t seen it for myself before. Sorry for thinking some of my fellow TTAGers were exaggerating.
If you want to torture yourself: https://www.facebook.com/CoalitiontoStopGunViolence/posts/1020725831288315
PS: This is how they view you. Whether you look like it or not.
I would love to see how they would deal with the cognitive dissonance if it were a woman instead of a black man (given that you can bet Watts and her crew are liberal feminists). “Violence against women” vs. “All legal gun owners must die.” Decisions decisions. My guess is, in the end, they’d throw women under the bus. They already are since they want to prevent our ability to arm ourselves for protection.
Generally speaking, when a woman or a racial minority or some other “oppressed” person doesn’t act the way liberals think they are supposed to act (ie, as being totally dependent on the good will of the collective and particularly their betters in high positions), that person is no longer a “real” woman or black person or whatever to the liberals. So there is no contradiction in their “minds”.
I also love how you put scare quotes around minds.
I think the CSGV fb page gave me brain damage.
My, gun owners are sooo violent! Oh, wait…
Yeah, projection much? No wonder they are terrified for “law abiding citizens” to have guns. If I were as bloodthirsty as they are, I’d be pretty scared about it, too.
You talk to them long enough it will always come around to “well you shouldn’t be able to cuz if I did I would…” Fill in your own horrible irrational act of violence. They want a world where they can rage and assault without consequence. A good number of the antis I meet are serial brawlers, people who pick fights and are quick to violence. I imagine for someone like that the thought of an in willing participant ending their tantrum early is terrifying.
True story, Drew. That is the impression I’ve gotten from many of them as well. They don’t want anyone to be able to stand in the way of them assaulting other people, just not with guns.
And don’t ask why I put law abiding citizens in scare quotes because I have no idea.
It seemed the thing to do at the time…
I read a few comments just for fun…
Man, there are some sick puppies on there.
Yeah I’m glad they’ve decided they shouldn’t own guns. It’s a surprising small moment of self-awareness on their part. Doesn’t mean we are all violent sociopaths like they seem to be, though. So their decision to save the world from themselves shouldn’t affect my rights.
And the gun control freaks say we’re irrational and crazy…
Sooo … can we ban “Assault Antis” now? They seem to be more of an issue than assault rifles…
Let me finish your thought for you. Because America … has laws against assaulting another human being peaceably going about their business.
Let’s see. Off-duty cop? Plain-clothes cop? It takes a lot of stupid to just tackle somebody like that. I hope the victim sues and owns Foster and his whole family. Any lawyers out there? Call him up.
Foster’s mugshot is already online!
Home Depot Customer Service is his listed occupation, I really don’t believe he has never seen someone carrying at the store he works at. I’m guessing that HD has policies against assaulting it’s customers and policies against profiling folks as well, in fact I’ll go out on a limb and say if he has ever seen someone carrying at the store he works at he would be required to bring that to management’s attention or the folks in AP and I’m sure they told him to mind his own business.
Home Depot really must like that their name is attached to the arrest record of a violent offender.
CHL while black. This should be a civil rights violation as well as a violent crime.
Because you can find everything on the internet,
Per the arrest record from the county, it appears the attacker was placed on a 72 hr mental health hold (Baker Act)
You deserve to be tackled because you practice your second amendment right!!!!! Damn if you recycle your garage, you’re a bastard, if you pay taxes i guess that makes you a asshole and don’t be a good Samaritan you’ll be a son of a bitch!!!!!!!
A good reason for your spouse to have a CCW license, just in case a gun control zealot attacks you! The victim should have been in fear for his life during the attack!
This is a crazy story. Glad the pinhead who assaulted Mr. Daniels got arrested and charged with battery. This was in Florida, someday one of these whack-jobs is going to pull this crap and get his a$$ shot, or another CHL holder will intervene and shoot the idiot thinking it is an ordinary assault. I do not hope it ever comes to that, but as long as MDA is goading people to violence against Gun Owners (and legal CHL holders, apparently) the odds move slowly towards it happening. A dark day born of ignorance that will be.
Actually, you shouldn’t intervene unless you know the entire story. Recently, a CCW permit holder got involved when he saw a man jump a woman in a store parking lot. It turned out that she was a shoplifter and he was a plain clothes security guard trying to take her into custody. Fortunately, the permit holder showed restraint instead of simply opening fire.
In the past week or so, a black man and a black kid have been killed by police who jumped to the wrong conclusions over toy guns. Forty years ago, I watched campus cops at my university deal with a large, aggressive dog some fool brought with him. The cops watched the dog for a couple of minutes until they saw that he was threatening people. Then, they moved in and squirted him with Mace. (This was before pepper spray.) They had enough sense not to shoot the dog on sight.
a man jump a woman in a store parking lot
Really, he attacked her viciously? Wow. First of all, -1 for waiting until she got all the way out to the parking lot, and -1 for viciously attacking her.
In a lot of jurisdictions a person must set foot onto the asphalt to get a clean conviction for shoplift or theft. Especially if your stores have displays outside it is too easy for a shoplifter to articulate that they wanted some apples or a bag of mulch and that you apprehended them before they had opportunity to pay for everything they wanted to buy. I spent a bit of time as loss prevention and with push outs it wasn’t uncommon to wait until a person started loading into their car just to make sure they weren’t just “going out for a reusable bag or their wallet”. As for “jumping” I can’t comment without seeing the apprehension, but I wouldn’t start docking points until you know all the details.
“In the past week or so, a black man and a black kid have been killed by police who jumped to the wrong conclusions over toy guns”
I recall one case end of Nov in Cleveland:
“Here’s what happened next, according to the Northeast Ohio Media Group:
“They [LEOs] responded and saw the boy pick up what they thought was a black gun, tuck it in his waistband and take a few steps.
Officers drew their weapons and told the boy to raise his hands. Instead, he lifted his shirt and reached for the handle of the gun sticking out of his waistband. He pulled out the gun, and the officer opened fire, shooting twice, hitting him at least once in the abdomen.
Rice died from the officers’ shots. It turns out what he had in his waistband was a BB-type novelty gun with the orange safety cap removed. ”
above from http://time.com/3603087/tamir-rice-shooting-toy-gun/
Please advise what you would have done if someone you told to raise their hands instead reached inside their waistband for the butt of a gun…
This whole issue of “toy guns” (usually with the orange tip removed) has been discussed at length here without any concrete resolution. I understand your comment is directed at Kehdahl, but for my two-cents, I think you have to be there and make the call based on what you see and believe at the moment to be the case. There’s no rule applicable to all situations and you must take the risk of what the aftermath will be – for Cops it’s “Good Shoot” or “Bad Shoot”, for the rest of us it depends on local applicable Law.- or of being shot and possibly killed.
There seems to be a trend of young people carrying around “toy guns” (usually with the orange tip removed), who apparently never read or hear the news and aren’t getting the message this is a potentially dangerous thing to do based on what happens in the “real world”. Add to that Parents who apparently don’t know or care or talk to their children about this issue, and you’ve got kids wandering around placing themselves in danger. Add to that Cops who may or may not be well trained, who are biased, who are more concerned about “going home that night”, or a myriad of other things, and the risk to the child goes up even more. Finally, add to that the fact most of these people are youngsters whose judgement is immature, and you’re close to a Perfect Storm that keeps getting people killed. At the bottom line it comes down to information and judgement. Lack of either, on the part of either party involved, feeds this beast and will continue to do so.
Except that’s not at all how the Tamir Rice shooting went down.
Watch the video.
He was alone, he never touched his shirt and the cop shot him within a second and a half of pulling up. Oh and the cop never saw the “gun” till Tamir was shot so the “missing orange tip” is bs too.
The original report was that the gun was probably fake, dispatch didn’t find that important.
Then for good measure, the cops handcuffed Tamir’s sister and put her in the car to watch her brother bleed while they didn’t bother to do CPR, on a 12 yo, A passing FBI agent had to do that and EMT’s took almost 10 minutes to arrive.
Did I mention the cop who shot him had been fired from another area PD as unfit for the position and the firing agency went so far as to say he would never be cop material?
The Tamir Rice shooting was an outrage and hopefully, the cop will face charges.
@ Fanfare Ends : That’s not what happened. He never even touched his shirt and the cop killed him within 2 seconds of pulling up. The cop also never saw the “gun” until after killing Tamir. The person that reported it said that the “gun” was probably fake.
Rice lifted his sweatshirt and reached for the gun. You can see it on the video. Also, that’s how the gun got from his waistband and onto the ground when he was shot.
Good point, Kendahl! You’re absolutely right! Thank-you!
Yep, if you’re not involved, observe, call the police. You don’t know what the situation is. I’ve heard multiple stories of someone thinking they’re breaking up an attack only to have both participants turn on them. It’s simply not worth it. A handgun is for getting out of a fight, not getting into one, except as a last resort.
Agreed! Well stated, Sian. Thanks!
And talk about serious unsafe handling of the gun ! How many people handled the gun after jumping on him, holding him down, taking his gun and passing ti at 3 different people.
And doesn’t this goon know that criminals don’t use holsters? 🙂
Criminals prefer thug life, stick it in the pants and risk blowing their dick off or down their ass crack. Holsters aren’t cool to them.
Even before I bought my first gun, I never assumed that someone walking around walmart with a holstered weapon was a criminal. Open carry without a permit in this state. CCH with permit.
But the media has done a good job of turning a segment of the population into hopolophobes.
As a guy who rolls and randori’s for fun, there’s no way I’m playing around with someone engaged in battery of my person. If I can draw I will if not I will after pulling guard, in either event it will be a miracle if I’m not forced to shoot. I know it might come as a surprise to most anti-civil rights control freaks that alot of religious CCW’s can effectively defend themselves without our gun.
The assailant should be dead by rights, I hope some control freaks are able to balance their insane will to dominate and enslave against their own mortality after seeing this event in the news. Only when they see that there are personal consequences for their mental abhorrence, will they leave people alone and respect the rights of others.
TTAG commenters – I’m very disappointed. Lots of superfluous discussion on this one and everyone missed the most important fact about this entire story. SITUATIONAL AWARENESS. The most important part of carrying is ALWAYS being aware of your environment. Even when not carrying I constantly survey my surroundings. Like we called it in the CV Navy – Swivel Head. I read an excellent article on Police One about the unintentional tells we carriers have. One of them is being the one person in the crowd who’s always looking at others with a surveying eye. Or entering a restaurant and moving directly to a table with your back to the wall and a good view of the entire place. This gent lost his situational awareness and it bit him. If you take nothing else away from this story, please wake up to always being aware.
Normally I would agree with you, but not in this case. Someone could run up behind you quietly and tackle you like happened here. Best you could hope for is to draw your weapon after being hit or draw a knife and slash the guys arm to ribbons.
Some liberal people’s hero puts me in a chokehold, I’mma whip out my ASP and make him regret ever having been born with shins and elbows. Just saying.
A couple of observations, I won’t mention SA because it has already been mentioned. First, I wonder if hero-boy would have jumped a white guy? Or a younger, fit guy of any ethnicity? Second, concealed means concealed – for your own good and the good of everyone else. Finally, if you are interested in self defense, you really need to take a few years of jiu jitsu or judo if physically able to do so. Some grappling skills can be lifesavers since so many confrontations end up grappling. When I used to train, many of the guys on the mat were cops and they all has used their jits on the job.
Daniels would do the CCs and gun owners in the US a great service by not pressing charges. I can speculate here that Foster could have very much felt he was being heroic in what he did in the presence of the hyper active media reporting and dwelling on terrorism and shootings. The media is conditioning the public to fear guns and people who have them. Although that is foolish for many reasons, it is our current reality. So I can see the possibility that Foster was trying to do the right thing, “in the moment.”
This also highlights how important it is for CCs to be very careful to assure that their weapon is actually “concealed” at all times. This incident highlights the practicality of that being a serious focus of CCs given our reality. It is wishful thinking to think otherwise.
The best thing we can do is take the high ground of responsibility in all aspects of how we conduct ourselves including how we engage in the rhetoric around our rights.
I disagree. The best outcome would be for Foster to serve jail time AND get a large civil judgement against him. Serves as a warning to others.
^^ this, otherwise the Watts brigade will be tackling CCW holders right and left.^^
Interesting case, but I’m wondering if it’s a mistaken to assume this bone head is an anti-gun activist. First, he was Baker-acted, which indicates that he was a few quarters short of a roll. Second, and the first supports this, it is possible that he genuinely thought the concealed carrier was some kind of mass murderer waiting to happen.
I’m not defending his actions–far from it. I’m of the school of thought that, unless someone points a weapon at your, or shoots a weapon at you, you really shouldn’t be overly concerned with how well-equipped they are to defend themselves and others. Personally, I wish every adult I met was well-armed and well-trained.
This seems like a culture wars thing. We may be winning so far on the law front but the common perception seems to be “bad guys and cops carry guns” and nobody else does. There are a lot of people still who simply aren’t aware that it IS legal to carry a handgun into a public place if you have a permit. We forget that outside of the super anti-gun people and the super pro-gun people, a lot of America somehow isn’t even aware that any regular mentally stable and law abiding person can get a conceal carry permit.
I know there was a time when I thought you could only do it if you were a private investigator or security guard.