[UPDATE: 3/18 11:38 PM] I have just spoken with Dimitri at Ares Armor, and he has confirmed that the raid was over polymer lower receivers and their unique method of manufacturing and not related to build parties as speculated in this article. So while this article still describes an active ATF investigation related to 80% lowers, it appears to be unrelated to Ares Armor. The article has been updated to reflect this new information.
The Ares Armor case is interesting, but another investigation relating to 80% lower receivers involves some of the sketchiest gun stores I have ever heard of. Take a peek . . .
An 80% lower is, in a legal sense, just a hunk of metal. It’s not a complete firearm, so it isn’t treated like one. It’s no more a firearm than a block of marble is a work of art by Michelangelo. But it has enough of the rough dimensions of an AR-15 lower receiver that finishing the project and turning it into a functional gun is almost trivial — drill a couple of holes, mill a few locations, and presto, you have yourself a gun.
Manufacturing 80% lower receivers isn’t illegal. You can even ship them anywhere you want to whomever you want, since, again, it’s just a hunk of metal and not technically a gun. But manufacturing firearms for sale to the public without a license is a HUGE no-no. And if the affadavit for the search warrant is accurate, then that’s exactly what some people in California were doing.
To be clear, the following describes activities of people who are NOT Ares Armor. Specifically, the following details the business practices of LCG AR Part and Custom Accessories in California. But it gives some insight into what the ATF thinks was going down in Ares Armor’s back room.
On March 19, 2013, an undercover law enforcement officer (“UC#1”) visited LCG AR Parts and Custom Accessories (“LCG”) [ED: NOT Ares Armor], located at 8524 Florin Road, Sacramento (Attachment A-1). LCG is a small gun parts store located within a larger commercial plaster retail store. At LCG, UC#1 was met by MICHAEL TURNER. UC#1 asked TURNER about firearms. TURNER informed UC#1 that UC#1 could purchase an AR-15 blank at LCG and “mill it out” in the back of the shop the same day – essentially creating a firearm from scratch.
[…]
On April 3, 2013, UC#1 met TURNER at LCG. UC#1 removed an AR-15-style pistol off the display wall of LCG and explained that he wanted to model the pistol after the one on display. TURNER handed UC#1 an AR-15 blank that was made of aluminum. UC#1 asked how long it takes to make the AR-15 blank into a firearm. TURNER informed UC#1 that such a firearm could be made in about two hours. TURNER informed UC#1 that UC#1 would drill five holes and then “Jimmy” would “clean it up.” TURNER is pictured below in a screenshot from the video recorded by UC#1.
TURNER identified “Jimmy” (individual later identified as EMILIANO CORTEZ) and indicated UC#1 should follow EMILIANO CORTEZ. EMILIANO CORTEZ and TURNER guided UC#1 out of the firearm shop (located within the plastering business) towards the back of the business. Upon arriving at the rear of the business, TURNER told UC#1 that EMILIANO CORTEZ was going to set the AR-15 blank into a “jig.”
TURNER informed UC#1 that UC#1 would have to drill five holes in the AR-15 blank, and then EMILIANO CORTEZ would mill the remainder to complete the receiver. UC#1 was directed to use a drill press and instructed how to operate the drill press – in essence, UC#1 was operating the drill press as a surrogate for EMILIANO CORTEZ – EMILIANO CORTEZ directed each and every move made by UC#1. EMILIANO CORTEZ would motion to the UC#1 when to stop and reposition the AR-15 blank. Subsequently, TURNER took UC#1 back to the front of LCG and informed UC#1 that EMILIANO CORTEZ would finish the receiver within the next hour and a half.
[…]
According to the Department of Homeland Security, EMILIANO CORTEZ is a Mexican national who has previously been deported and is illegally present within the United States. Further, EMILIANO CORTEZ is a convicted felon. In 2010, in Nevada County, California, EMILIANO CORTEZ was convicted of possession of an assault weapon and sentenced to sixteen months in prison.
[…]
Several minutes later, CI#1 departed from LCG in possession of an AR-15 pistol, two boxes of ammunition, and a large-capacity magazine. At no point was CI#1 required to fill out a background check form or complete any paperwork that is required by ATF prior to the purchase of a firearm.
I’m gonna be honest — this doesn’t sound good for those involved.
So from the documents, it looks like these guys (LCG AR Parts and Custom Accessories, or “LCG”) employed an illegal Mexican immigrant who’s also a felon to assist customers in manufacturing firearms on the business’s premises. The employee in question allegedly would set the blank up in the drill press, instruct the customer in drilling out the holes, then then take it from there.
Around the time of the investigation, the ATF issued a response to Ares Armor’s request for clarification about the same practice — “assisting” others in milling out their 80% lower receivers. And according to the ATF, a federal firearms license is required for “a business premises at which, for a fee, it makes available a computer numeric control (CNC) machine, tools, equipment, and instructions to persons who bring in castings or raw materials for the purpose of creating firearms.” In short, what was happening in the back of LCG’s shop was, according to the ATF, illegal.
After the clarification was issued, LGS seems to have had an “OH SHIT” moment and tried to clean up its act. Tried.
On April 25, 2013, CI#1 visited LCG and purchased two AR-15 blanks from LUIS CORTEZ. CI#1 inquired about converting the AR-15 blanks into firearms. TURNER advised CI#1 that they [LCG] were no longer going to machine and drill AR-15 blanks into completed lower receivers and that CI#1 was going to have to do it. TURNER continued that this change was because of a “DOJ” announcement stating that it was illegal for them to show customers how to do the machining and drilling and be paid for it.
[…]
When CI#1 approached LUIS CORTEZ about the information provided by TURNER, LUIS CORTEZ advised that his brother (EMILIANO CORTEZ) was afraid to touch “the machine” (referring to the machine used to mill the AR-15 blanks). LUIS CORTEZ informed CI#1 that numerous customers had been calling and LUIS CORTEZ had informed them that he no longer did “it” anymore (referring to the machining and drilling of AR-15 blanks).
I’ll spare you the gory details, but after the letter came out it looks like LCG started putting people in touch with third parties who performed the same service that had previously been done on-site. People whom the adjective “sketchy” doesn’t begin to describe.
DOCUMENT: Search Warrant Affadavit
In short, these guys are royally screwed. And they know it.
Was this even a question?
So why was EP Armory, and Ares Armory, who manufacture two-tone plastic 80% lowers, raided and re-opened? Why were there records seized?
I heard that it was the BTAF decided that the two plastic lowers didn’t qualify as 80%, anybody know?
AS I understand, that was one of the angles. The issue being that the white part to be milled out was suspected to be created in the fire control pocket *after* the entire “100%” lower had been molded.
^^THIS
I have to say Nick the guys over at LCG were not following the law. It is pretty clear at this point.
After Dark Side Tactical in San Jose was shut down for having build parties, it seems that Ares asked for clarification, and rightfully so.
Regardless of the accusations of the BATFE, the guys over at Areas have been on the up and up. EP was also raided as well, and this focuses on the Polymer 80% lower specifically.
The owner of Ares has also been having issues regarding their sign as well, and have been threatened with jail time if they didn’t take it down. This has been one giant build up.
As the above article states, the ATF has classified 3rd party assistance in where to mill/drill on a lower as manufacturing a firearm. The ATF has decided to investigate whether the colored part of EP Armory’s lowers qualify as 3rd party assistance. If they do indeed decide that this is true, it will make anyone who has ever sold one guilty of illegal manufacture of a firearm. The next logical step in the process is to raid everyone who manufactures jigs. If your company makes or sells 80% lower jigs, get ready.
It’s a shame that all the 80% lowers that I have purchased were lost in a boating accident…..
haha. mine were all lost in a boating incident as well isn’t that weird?
So this is similar to operation fast and furious in a strange sort of way….only this time somebody is going to jail instead of a teaching job in Baltimore.
Obviously the guy is a vet, as am I. I still have an old pair of coveralls that I never upgraded the rank on because I never had to use it after I made E5.
How about you guys focus on the fact that military vets support and stand behind you.
That is a horrifying thought. Our apolicital military would never be trusted again. We have a unique military because the people perceive it to be apolitical and defending the Constitution and the country regardless of the political party in power. Whether Connecticut’s law is Constitutional or not is not determined by the military. It is determined by the people. If the people decide it is unconstitutional, then they have the arms to act. The States may also act. But the military defends the Constitution from enemies foreign and domestic, not from states who have yet to be determined to be acting legally.
The domestic enemies part of the oath is tricky, but it does not mean that the individuals in the military can decide who to make political statements for or against.
I’d charge him in a heartbeat.
It sounds like there was probably a lot going on behind the scenes here, illegal immigrants who are felons, etc…
but all that aside, they’re trying to make a charge stick based on the illegality of the sale of information, if that information is related to the manufacturer of a firearm. That is insane. Imagine, if they could make this stick, what implications it would have for limiting free speech in all kinds of other scenarios?
Also that you could operate a machine “as a surrogate for so-and-so?” How do you even define that without every person who operates a machine being a surrogate of whoever taught them?
The letter from the ATF to Ares explains the ATF’s justification for classifying the CNC assistance as “manufacturing” (pages 86-88). http://www.justice.gov/usao/cae/news/docs/2014/2014_02/02-27-2014Cortez%20SW%20Package.pdf
“The ATF understands that AAMW [Ares] intends to maintain a business premises at which, for a fee, it makes available a computer numeric control (CNC) machine, tools, equipment, and instructions to persons who bring in castings or raw materials for the purpose of creating firearms…
While AAMW may not own the castings or finished articles, we disagree with your assertion that AAMW does not therefore make, or have custody or control over the finished firearms. Custody and control over a firearm is relevant only in that it may assist in determining whether there has been a “sale or distribution” of a firearm. From inception, AAMW has custody and control over all firearms produced inside its machines at its business premises. In fact, AAMW controls the entire manufacturing process. Following manufacture, AAMW distributes a firearm when it returns a completed firearm to the person who provided only a casting or raw material. The production of finished frames or receivers from castings constitutes the manufacture of firearms, AAMW is, therefore, engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms for sale or distribution.”
They go on to state that Ares would need an FFL (type 07), serialize each firearm, and follow all other laws/regulations to transfer said firearms to their owners. Not saying I agree with it, just putting that info out there for clarification.
It seems to me that the ATF is trying to claim that the polymer 80% lowers that show exactly where to machine and drill constitute a form of “assistance” in manufacturing a firearm which is illegal. Sounds like a stretch to me. They just want the customer info.
It seems to me that you didn’t read the post before commenting.
Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
This is why I didn’t immediately jump to Ares’ defense, because I know there is always more to the story. That belief is also what is precluding me from assuming that this search warrant justifies the ATF’s raid of Ares. I think there is still a lot more to be told before the dust settles.
Ares is not mentioned in either the LGS affidavit or the Cortez indictment.
So, what’s the connection to Ares? Is is JUST that they called to clarify ATF’s position on what seems, at best, to be very muddy waters?
If so, asking a question is not PC for a search warrant. One would hope the ATF has more than that to justify their search of Ares.
To know, we’d need to see the text of THAT affidavit.
You don’t want to automatically defend _______?
Then make it a practice to ALWAYS automatically assume that ATF is WRONG. Then you will be right.
I guess after 25 years of doing the wrong thing, you just assume the ATF up to no good.
Ordinarily I’m not a tinfoil hat kinda guy, but this smells suspiciously like they’re trumping up some stuff to justify harassing Ares–in essence adding him to an already-existing investigation. If the owner isn’t lieing about his previous meeting with the ATF, then they are essentially creating an opening to harass/jail him for not complying with their request.
I’m sure next time everyone will withhold judgment about a story until the facts are presented, right? Just kidding, torches and pitchforks bring in more ad revenue.
Some of this is justified, some of it is to create fear around “ghost guns” to keep people from getting around the ATF. The records the ATF wanted from Ares was for the latter goal, to harass those that wanted to produce their own firearms legally. I wonder if there have been any new stories about this yet. I can imagine the headlines: “ATF raids metal detector defeating ghost gun factory, tracks down felons with illegal guns, ends illegal immigrant issue, saves world, gets free donuts.”
You are conflating the issues.
You state it’s obvious this what they suspect Ares of. I don’t think that’s obvious at all. Your example has a store employee who is a felon building 80% lowers to 100% for an Under Cover agent.
For what cause do we have to believe that is what occurred at Ares? Wild speculation?
none of this is relevant to the fact that the ATF violated a restraining order to conduct the raid over the weekend. Our government is setup in 3 branches to prevent this exact thing from happening, the fact that the executive branch just told the judicial branch to go fuck itself, and nobody cared, ought to scare the shit out of everyone.
No they didn’t. A restraining order cannot impede a legal investigation backed up by a warrant. And the restraining order spelled out as much.
This article does not shed any light on why the ATF raided Ares arms. Here is the link to the ex parte application that the ATF filed with the U.S. district court.
http://www.scribd.com/doc/212487675/DOJ-Response-Ares-Armor
-In it the ATF falsely alleges that Ares is manufacturing full firearms instead of 80% recievers.
-They allege Ares is dealing in firearms without a license.
-They complain that Ares dare to seek legal means to defend themselves from the ATFs efforts to seize their stock. They call it a “trick” and a “ruse” on Ares part not to provide the “firearms” as per their agreement. Even though Ares had a TRO saying that they were not required to turn over their stock.
Does any of this stop bad guys from doing had things? Do I have to say it?
What a total and utter waste of government resources and another infringement of our right to keep and bear arms.
Mean while; the worshipers at the feet of government, that need to be given a permit to sneeze or wipe their nose; will be saying how “they get what they deserve for breaking THE LAW”.
Typical of the ATF, denying hard-working immigrants a job. I bet if the guys name was John Smith nobidy would have been raided.
if name was something like Barak, Dartanial, etc making parts for some Marist group.
Based on the history of ATF, what are details of “EMILIANO CORTEZ is a convicted felon”.
If the honorable Attorney General knew his head from his rear, would, Mr Cortez be in the US? Mr Cortez obviously should have shown his ACORN ID and Dem voter registration.
Hmmm, 2A absolutists here are saying that it’s ok for the ATF to raid a gun shop. Curious. Those who have been against BG checks and other gun control causes from the beginning are willing to defend the ATF.
I’m not on board with a convicted felon / illegal immigrant having access to the firearms. Other than that, I could care less if a responsible citizen seeks assistance in creating a firearm. I also don’t see why everyone *must* be an FFL.
And I still can’t reply to the responses of other folks. Hope someone is working on that. I’m running an iPhone 5 with OS 7.1.1.
If the customer drills some holes and a staff member “finishes” it by milling out the trigger pocket, it is a clear case of illegal firearm manufacturing. The customer must drill his own holes and mill his own trigger pocket.
If a lower is fully milled and then has the trigger pocket filled with polymer, they illegally manufactured a firearm (because all manufacturing operations were completed), Filling an illegal firearm with polymer does not make it a non-firearm
I said it above and I’ll say it again here….
In arguing about whether this is legal or that is illegal we’re missing the bigger point. In order for us to have the uninfringed right to keep and bear arms, the manufacture of arms cannot be infringed (or else we could potentially have nothing to bear). We’re arguing whether the leaves on the dying tree are yellow or orange instead of finding out who poisoned the tree.
All one has to do is look back into the ’80’s at the Soviet invasion, occupation and subsequent withdrawal of Afghanistan…that’s a lesson to any major or superpower that the power, actually belongs to the people…
See also Winter War
I dont understand why so many are uptight about CORTEZ being a convicted felon. He was charged with posession of an assault weapon. In Kommiefornia. I count at least 6 guns in my safe that would net me the same charge in that state. As far as I’m concerned, all of these ”crimes” only exist on paper. Aside from the state’s ever expanding control, who did these guys hurt?
Once confiscation begins. . . people will have real standing to challenge the law in court. despite the current environement, there has to be one judge with a pair of balls to stand up for the constitution.
Warrants?
Pshaw!
They don’t need warrants.
All they need to do is suspend the drivers/business/professional (medical, legal) and other licenses of gun owners. Or levy fines or liens on their tax returns or real estate.
When you can’t pay the rent/mortgage or water/grocery bill, you will be come a very compliant little ewe….
Sure sounds like door-to-door to me.
This makes more sense. I can see this happening years before D2D rears it’s head. It doesn’t cost more money to the state, and nobody has to get hurt.
So….any CT residents need someone to hold their guns out of state??? I volunteer!
Let’s see where this could go. The third party outfits that make the tools (end mills, machinists vices, drill presses, etc) are just as guilty as the people making the jigs of helping manufacture the guns.
If every American did their duty and bought mosins by the crate to give to their friends, this wouldn’t be a problem! 😀
Why crappy Mosins when you can buy much better Yugo Mausers.
You guys are leaving out the obvious fifth column, to wit, the media. They are just as complicit in this crime as the politicians are, and should be punished just as severely, as well.
Tom
For all of those who believe in acting within the bounds of the law (and only the bounds of the law) in order to change it, consider:
THE ATF VIOLATED A RESTRAINING ORDER
“They” do not play by even their own rules – even bogus rules. Whatever they “uncover” against Ares is ill-gotten fruit & any lawyer would challenge it outright. Furthermore, a judge somewhere (supposedly) issued a warrant in violation of an already existing restraining order.
The whole point of selling 80% receivers is so Ares could sell “firearms” over the internet legally. Selling firearms (as a business) without a FFL is illegal but should not be; selling firearms thru mail order or the internet to non-FFL holders is illegal but should not be. The line was at 80% and they crossed it. Do you really think they will stop there? How about raiding the companies that provided the metal & polymer to Ares? How about me for commenting on the situation?
Forget Molon Labe
Think στρατευοντα
So you think a civil restraining order signed by some podunk judge somewhere should be able to stop any federal investigation?
The only thing it did was put the onus on the ATF to get a judicial warrant instead of continuing to contact the company. Well, that being their only choice, they did!
I want confiscations to happen, because that means that somebody will actually be able to challenge this nonsense in court and get the law changed. With any luck, they’ll actually be able to force SCOUTS into looking at this case, and then we’ll see some honest to God firearms case law progress.
Granted, I’m being a little too optimistic, but whatever. Maybe one day we can kill the Hughes Amendment, too.
I have a 1991 Cz75 in gloss blue and 2005 in gloss stainless. Both are unshot in my vault, together with a cz75 Kadet .22 conversion. Both my CZ 75 are beautiful, and have beautiful trigger pulls. just bought a 1993 Israli military cz75 in nice condition for $400 at a gun show. I love the trigger pull of all my CZ75’s, and plan to shoot the most recent CZ75 with the Kadet conversion. A friend has a CZ75 with the Kadet conversion and loves it. I look forward to shooting the Kadet conversion and purchasing another CZ75 compact in the near future. I also enjoy shooting my 1978 Colt 9mm commander.
Enjoy
John
Don’t know how Mr. Z was set for funding but it seems to me his “stash” was a good start at having a fair to middlin collection. Sort of paltry by any stretch but he showed potential for having a well rounded and expandable collection.
Who will be the Rosa Parks of the modern 2A movement?
Someone will get arrested. Ok, maybe a bunch of people will get arrested for owning contraband weapons. It’s a felony, after all. Precisely how this happens will be secondary to what happens next.
The NRA and other gun rights groups will pick someone to be Rosa Parks (Rosa was not the first person arrested for refusing to comply with Montgomery’s segregation laws, but she was the “chosen one”). Such organizations will provide the legal representation to take Rosa down the long and winding road that ends at the Supreme Court Building.
Rosa Parks is lionized today, but she paid a heavy price for her civil disobedience. She lost her job and her husband had to quit his. They eventually had to move to another state to find work. She and her husband both suffered from ulcers and other medical problems.
Someone will again pay a heavy price. It will only include body bags if someone decides to be stupid about it.
If my gun is on my hip during the day and right next to me on my bedside table at night, why do I need a safe for a “bump in the night?”
If I lived in CT, I would make sure my guns were well hidden. They would have to dismantle the whole house to find them. As for using dogs to locate them, I would spread trace amounts of gun powder all over the house.
I think is will be D2D. Several years ago there were over 70,000 no knock raids. The STATE already knows how to do it.
They shoot a few people or better yet, they pick weak people, catch them outside their primary residence as they walk and then take them down. After a few of these, others will generally give them up.
They’ll just make a few examples, spread fear and confusion, done!
This has been done before.
To be honest, if I find myself in a school rocking an MP5 pistol I’m going to be shooting any and everything just for the lulz.
Bought R51 3/14. Took home, cleaned. Next day, range. Shot 5 rds. Herter’s brass 9mm 115 gr., accurate at 15 ft., low recoil, felt good. Loaded 5 rds. BVAC (same), 4 fired, 5th would not enter battery. Cleared. 5 rds. PMC (same), none would enter battery. Slide stuck half open. No cartridge damage found. 2 gunsmiths (separate locations) were able to finally take it down, nothing obvious but felt a spring on side of bolt (hammer?) out of position was preventing closure. Tried to register gun online: “server error ‘/’. Phone gets “unusual call volume”. NOT happy camper. My first Remington, not first handgun.
wonderful issues altogether, you just won a new reader. What may you recommend
about your publish that you just made some days in the past?
Any certain?
Yeah I wouldn give home the chance to surrender, o
It all depends on one other question. Did he kill a member of my family? If yes then yes I would. If no then no I wouldn’t.
As we have seen over and over, active shooters are bent on killing others and themselves. Things unfold in seconds an even police constantly error on the side of safety.
As an armed citizen, I would NOT attempt to capture an active shooter. If I was about to fire and he tossed all firearms on the ground and spread eagled, then I may not fire, but is he alone? Is someone going to come up behind you while you have your sidearm pointed at the suspects head?
Very very dangerous situation to be in.
I would have to conclude that in a active shooter situation, the best action would be to do whatever it takes to stop innocent people from being victims in the safest way possible.
******A dead good guy with a gun is no good at all********
Who says that during an active shooting, you didn’t have fear for the the safety of yourself and those around you. That’s a pretty tough standard to dismiss after an active shooter incident.
It seems that most you Fudds are missing the point. The fact is, if LEOs show up and see you holding a gun on someone, there is a damn good chance you’ll be ventilated.
So how are you going to keep him restrained while the cops get there? The comment about yelling “Police Police” is the best plan I’ve seen
Don’t panic they said.
There will not be a shortage of surplus ammo they said.
I still bought a couple of spam cans of poison bullets…..
18.5 cents/round….
It’s a good thing the Yugos had a lot of surplus SKS ammo…..
No, that is murder. Carry zipties with you, to restrain somebody after they surrender.
A crate of surplus 5.45 is due on my porch today. I was going to keep one spam can and sell the other. Now the question is do I “take advantage” of this idiocy, do gun owners a solid and sell off the ammo at reasonable prices or keep all 2,160 rounds?
As an employee of two different schools, I can honestly say that were I to come upon a shooter who then surrendered to me, it would take every ounce of self-control I had not to do something outside the boundaries of acceptable, legal behavior. I could control myself, I know that, but I would lose sleep over not doing what would have felt like the quickest, easiest, most vengeful thing possible. However, that restraint is what separates us sheepdogs from the wolves. And it sucks sometimes.
The cops will not even have to STAKE OUT anybody; they will have access to telephone meta data and will know where you are and where you are likely to be.
You know how bad CT has gotten when somebody from CA sends you this.
This is why I went AR instead of AK.
A lot said in the above comments, some good some bad. Yes, it is murder to kill a criminal who has come after you and your family, if he has surrendered and dropped his weapon.
There are many things to consider before you shoot the perp. One thing I would consider that I have not yet seen in the comments, is, After this dude gets out of jail, how many other people and their families might be killed or disabled for life!
this is why I sold all my combloc guns except my pistols
Another crisis POTUS wont waste or miss in order to punish legal gun owners of America.
Awesome.
Olympic timing clock running here:
Scenario 1
You have pulled and are pointing your weapon. He is shooting and he doesn’t see you. Drop him with a triple tap.
Sc 2
You have pulled and are pointing your weapon, your eyes meet, he may or may not be selecting you as the next target. Drop him with a triple tap.
Sc 3,
You have pulled and are pointing your weapon. He sees your weapon, you hesitate he surrenders.
Sc 4,
You have pulled and are pointing your weapon. He sees your weapon, you hesitate to give him a chance to surrender , he triple taps you.
Sc 5
You have pulled and are pointing your weapon, you start firing and hit or miss, while you are shooting to neutralize the Active Shooter.
He spread eagles to the ground. Is that an evasive move or a surrender? Keep shooting until you know surrender is his intention for absolutely certain. He should get no benefit of any doubt.
Therefore it will be by your skill or his luck that he is killed, wounded or uninjured in the end.
The only relevant tense is past tense, surrendered. Going to surrender? No good. Surrendering? No good.
Tell me in what scenario you would give up your tactical advantage to give him a chance to surrender. I think you have to keep shooting during what may appear to be the process of surrender and it is your call when that process is complete. The problem with the question is, what do you define as surrendered. Hands up with a sidearm in a holster? Hands up and his AR slung behind his back. Or as mentioned before, spread eagled with an ankle holster.
So maybe the question should be “ would you shoot him if you knew he had surrendered”. It is in the uncertainty of the process where we may error, not the certainty of the post analysis. I hope the burden is not on us to be 100% accurate with the Olympic timing clock ticking off the thousandths of a second where the duration these decisions reside.
BTW, the government is the only entity that has the privilege to kill someone after they have surrendered.
Lucy and the football. Charlie Brown NEVER learns.
I wouldn’t worry too much about constricted supply. There’s some product differentiation among ammunition, even if only quality between identical specifications, but overall it approaches commodity status. So it’s fungible.
Russian ammo that now won’t come to the U.S., will instead go someplace else. Whatever ammo was already being sold in that someplace else, will now come here, replacing the Russian ammo. Bilateral economic sanctions are rarely effective, and even then work only if there’s some special circumstance involved. A commodity like ammunition, for which there are many suppliers and innumerable consumers, isn’t special.
As long as this is still America and most of the constitution still stands, China has not foreclosed and there are not UN or other foreign forces patrolling the streets, I will continue to buy what I can afford and what I can store and hide from the wife. I buy a certain amount of ammo every month. Usually due to a sale or free shipping. Been doing it forever and did not get caught without during the drought of 2013. To suggest that I have too much unamerican and anti-capitalism. Are we supposed to only have “enough” so some other guy can buy it and try and resell it for a profit. That is all I see around my burg. I dont buy off the shelf anymore or at shows. I can buy off the interweb and have it shipped to my door cheaper. Let the billy bobs beat each other senseless at Walmart over a $20 box of 223.
Does that… thing… even fire?
I like beautiful guns… but this kind of ornateness just doesn’t have a place in a semi-auto as far as I’m concerned.
So what, you shoot it once, the slide reciprocates, and the sharp blade on top goes flying into your eye? I appreciate the craftsmanship but it’s ugly and no thanks.
Boys and girls, think tactically outside the box. You have to be modern terrorists to survive. Gather together your ready reaction groups. You will have to have 100 or so to start. Get someone on the inside of the LEO to warrant judge operation. A clerk or janitor. Someone who is invisible. When the intel is solid, call your groups up. Think no cell phones or land lines unless coded. Gather at cardinal points around the search area, but out of sight. All of you people are masked and in camo. When the warrant is delivered, your four groups surround the swat crew in full force, but under cover, with a team leader to start the commotion. Quickly move on the radio bases. Then, Everyone lets out a predetermined yell. Tell the LEOs to drop the contraband and leave. Do not start a war. Have media present for the story. When they do leave, disperse quickly. This will send a chilling effect on the boys in blue. The next mission will be a different one. Think interception. The people must take control. They do not outnumber or outgun us.
Very baroque and beautiful. It’s art. I like it!
This sort of deep metal carving is unique to the German/Austrian gunmaking industry. I can’t tell you why they like it, just that it exists over more years (going back easily 150+ years) and more gunmakers than most people in the US know about.
Some of these pieces look downright painful to shoot. I’ve seen large game rifles with gargoyles coming out of the back of the receiver and other utterly outlandish adornments.
I like can appreciate and art piece as much as the next guy, but this is just gaudy and lacks taste. I’ve seen better guns confiscated in Mexican drug raids.
I don’t think my opinion on these sorts of show pieces is welcome here.
“That’s why we keep hearing these stories about fearful mopes blowing away minority teenagers…”
It’s the same two stories, over and over, because the media has sensationalized them with seemingly endless enthusiasm.
Oh, and “fearful mopes” is a racist euphemism.
The old woman doesn’t count. She shot him. She was supposed to hold him at gun point and walk him to the nearest PD station. Rookie shit, JP.
“Stand by and watch what happens.” says the Police Superintendent in the murder capital of the US.
I’m fine with that. Really, I am.
As for Mr. Steinberg, he would do well to actually spend some time in “bucolic farm counties of rural Illinois.” But he obviously hasn’t been outside the suburbs in a long time.
I’ve been thinking about getting one of those tactical walls or whatever they are called. Maybe the book shelf that when it flips up it has a hidey hole of sorts.
Seeing as I don’t have kids in my house, and people who come over stay typically on the lower level. I have plenty of places to stash stuff. I still make a point to have them cased and locked in case of break in, except for my .45 which I decided was a good ideas to duct tape to the bottom of a book shelf, don’t know why I did that.
‘The question is: Do people need those guns?’
Why is it the same people who keep trying to tell me that middle aged men need maternity coverage on their health insurance are the same ones who question why I NEED a firearm?
That sucks. They aren’t hurting Russians – they are hurting us.
They hate us more than they hate the Russians, so why not hurt us.
if someone is taking innocent lives I would stop the threat without commands. if said psycho has disarmed and surrendered, you shouldn’t even have your gun unholstered.
I purchased a Savage model 93 , 22mag. with the wood stock and when I loaded the clip the 4th. shell primer would jump over the 3rd. primer when you put the 5th. Round in the clip and the clip would be jammed and when you tried to load a shell into the chamber the bolt would jam on the shell it was trying to load into the chamber. I purchased new clips and the same thing happened. The clip worked fine as long as you only put 4 shell in it. I contacted Savage and they wanted me to send them the gun and I said it was in the clips not the gun. I went to a local dealer who had a 17 cal. In stock and the clip did the same thing when loaded with 5 rounds. The back of the clip is wedge shaped and allows too much side play in the rounds. My son has a Marlin and the clips are the same width from front to back and holds 7 rounds. The problem is in the clip on the Savage, but they will not admit they have a problem. Just put 4 rounds in the clip and load one round in the chamber , pull the clip and put one more round in it and now you have the 5 rounds to your access. The gun is very accurate and a tack driver, just can’t put 5 rounds in the clip as advertised .
The ATF doesn’t even employ firearms specialists, a majority of their agents are power hungry thugs that are afraid of guns rather than gun experts. They enforce bogus, ridiculous laws and are one of the few branches that actually punishes thought crimes. On top of that they are proven arms dealers, among the poorest trained government agents with respect to firearms safety and usage, and just plain daft. No IQ test required to be an ATF and no firearms knowledge either. Rather than recruiting USMC armorers they recruit liberal arts majors.
Gawd. I’m not worthy. That flintlock was especially fetching.
Fantasy. If I want fiction I’ll read Stephen King. None of you will ever be in a scenario like this. Would I allow active shooter to surrender? lol Whatever Farago.
Left this review on Slickguns earlier today:
Bought one this wkend. Was
Submitted by djsqueeze on Mon, 2014-03-17 00:46.
Bought one this wkend. Was looking at the R51 and the Ruger LC9 w/laser. I chose the R51 because I had waited so long for its arrival. I now wish I had chosen the Ruger. I arrived home with my new purchase and as usual I put it to the test. I loaded one magazine with 5rds of 9mm snap caps. I pulled the slide and released it. The slide did not complete it’s forward travel. I pushed the magazine release button and found that quite stiff. Once the magazine released, I pulled on the slide, nothing. It was stuck. Throughout the day I’ve been trying to get used to the R51. However, with the problems I’ve been having I’m almost afraid to run live ammo through this firearm for fear of getting a live round stuck in the chamber; something I did later in the day. So, at this time I wish I had chosen the Ruger LC9 w/laser for $30 more.
First of all.. whether weed is addicting is of no consequence.. besides youd have to cover to many different types of people in alotta case studies & even then you would only get a percentage because peoples bodies react differently when given the same medication.. Second.. Im sick of hearing bout how bad our government is an blah blah blah.. You people think your free just because you dont feel as enslaved as certain people in other certin countries.. wake the fuck up seriously.. our government sold us out decades ago.. Your constitutional right gives you the GOD GIVEN INALIENABLE RIGHT to carry a gun.. So the fact you have to ask the Governments permission to do so is a violation of your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT.. The constitution says ALL MEN were created equal.. not some me.. or only ones you like.. or only non weed smokers.. ALL MEN.. Our Government has soo much blood on ther hands they can & will never be wiped clean.. Take 911 for exaple.. EVERYONE who has half a brain knows that was done by George W. Bush.. shit even canada knows that.. but what has ANYONE done about it?? NOTHING!! What about a false war in IRAQ that has cost thousands more Americams their lives?? What about the concentration camps in America.. or the mass grave sites.. or the testing of different deceases on American troops without thier consent or approval.. or the lies told to greaving widows when their Soldier husband doesnt come home because he actually died from being injected with a decease by the US Government but to cover it up they tell her he was killed in action.. What about the murders that every president over the last 20 years has committed?? Cause no senator let alone president has clean hands.. anyone who thinks otherwise is in the dark.. So whats bein’ done?? Nothing!! Yall to busy arguin’ over whose right about CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS that have already been taken away.. “That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.” Did anyone catch that.. IT IS YOUR RIGHT to alter or abolish the Government of the united states when they take away your RIGHTS.. But nobody wants duh be that guy. Yall to busy fussin’ over a bad government but yall dont have the guts or nuts duh do anything bout it.. Our founding fathers would have called yall cowards.. Soo please, if you aint willing to bleed for freedom & actually stand up to the oppression of the government & throw off the chains of tyranny that they have placed us under, then your no better than the liers killers & puppets masters on the hill.. so do us all a favor.. sit down & SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU COWARDS.. Critics of a bad government who do nothing will never be patriots.. Ohhh but the government has an army.. I might get killed or imprisoned or tortured.. I dont have the education to go against the government.. Shit.. yall are pussies.. Our founding fathers were mostly tradesmen.. & most of the Soldiers who fought in the continental army were farmers & tradesmen as well.. & look what they did.. they didnt all have a harvard education but they fouvht against what they believed to be wrong.. cause they had balls.. yall are mostly a bunch of bitches whining over spilled milk.. your rights have already been taken.. so my question is this.. what are you pissoes expecting to accomplish by bitching about it.. Oh lets elect the right people into office.. Yeah thatll do alotta good.. when yall gunna learn that elections are rigged by the us government.. whose gunna serve next is decided by those on the hill not by you simple hard working everyday Americans.. Oh not not in America!! Were the land of the free & home of the brave.. Please!! More like the land of the talkers & home of the soon to be enslaved.. Its time sumone stands up.. Cause freedom has always been worth life or death.. unfortuantely most you so called americans just dont have it in you to give up your life for the rights you bitch bout them taking away.. sad.. Freedom wasnt about the founding fathers.. it was always about the generations that would come after them.. the constitution was just the blueprint for the standard they set.. hopefully america will wake up soon.. otherwise one day she will be no more..
Wow. Danny must have had a few cold ones before he went to the show. Maybe a variety pack of cold ones, short and strong, tall and fruity. He had himself a good old time.
“You’re not a lawyer – you don’t know what you are talking about!”
“I can read…”
The mayor isn’t a lawyer either. Funny Funny.
How embarrassing.
Good stuff. I’m glad Murthy is gone. Now Obama is off to nominate another thoroughly unqualified person for a high-profile position, and maybe he’ll scratch out a few more anti gun / anti freedom executive orders.
I hate to be so cynical in the face of an obvious victory, but what good does it do when State legislators and law enforcement ignore even the Heller decision on a regular basis with impunity. Perhaps a little less impunity each day…..perhaps.
How soon before you have to wear a scarlet letter “G” to exercise your rights outside your home?
The instructor yells “shoot the ground!” In Russian immediately before this ND. I argue that the entire video is a string of negligent discharges.
Well, in the mean time, we are systematically downsizing our military, removing and/or restricting religion, and homosexuals, and transsexuals are given allowance as the entry standards are given a wide berth. As far as senior brass that doesn’t toe the line, they are offered early retirement, or an offer they can’t refuse.
Should work out well. I’m sure ol’ Vlad is laughing out loud, as well as the Chinese, and more than a few of Muslim persuasion. At least a few ND’s keep you light on your feet, and rather nimble.
Talk to the Moose …
BRAVO!
Everybody gates HOAs until they need them. That being said, I hate even the concept of HOAs. I’d prefer to live rural rather than subdivision.
If only our Foreign Policy had any balls these days.
If it had balls, would we be conducting more wars than just Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, Syria, Lybia, Ethiopia, or the other couple dozen countries the U.S. military is “helping”??
In 1938 Hitler annexed the Sudetenland because of the ethnic germans that lived there. A year later he invaded Poland and WWII started. I think Putin believes that Obama will act like Neville Chamberlain did and just shoot his mouth off rather than do anything else. The old Soviet Union may not be as dead as we think it is.
If only we had Neville Chamberlin. After all he did go to war over Poland.
Putin is not trying to ressurect the Soviet Union. He is trying to rebuild the Great Russian Empire. There is a big difference because it isn’t based on a global ideology just Russian exceptionalism. See the 19th Century concept of Moscow as the “Thrid Rome.”
How can the subject of a search warrant not know the contents of said warrant? The only exception I can think of for having to serve (i.o.w. GIVE) the warrant to the subject is FISA.
Putin knows precisely what he is doing. It is all about securing the warm water port on the Black Sea and projecting Russian power.
Ploymer80 isnt taking any orders currently.
Connected? Polymer lower fears cascading through the industry?
It’s funny how perfectly legal things can become illegal just because more people participate in said legal act or the act becomes easier to participate in.
Free speech was well and good until the Internet made it too easy to be heard. Now it’s a problem. The 4th was all well and good until it became too easy to hide and encrypt. Now that’s a problem. Since a $200 stamp is now affordable in todays money NFA items are becoming more commonly owned and some politicians see this as a problem.
When only special privileged people can participate it’s all fine and dandy. Once the common slob on the street can print a gun now they need to worry and make it all illegal.
Kinda like the pot calling the kettle black…
It’s kinda funny Putin is talking about the rule of the gun or whatnot and gear he is at the range. Last time I checked it’s very difficult to acquire firearms in Russia. But Obama, please stop listening to whoever you “listen” too on FP. it’s clearly not working
Who cares what the NYT Editorial Board says? The NYT, Boston Globe, LA TImes etc are dead men walking and soon to go the way of video rental stores, horse drawn carriages and T Rex. The death of for profit news (printed and electronic) has been under reported (hmmmm, why?) but well known for the better part of 10 years. The best part is, many of the print based companies have sold off their tv & radio broadcast companies to focus on their “core” business which only made them more irrelevant. The concept of a NYT online for a fee is cute but not much more. Admittedly, they have a dedicated audience that gets lathered up to spend a Sunday on the couch reading the Sunday TImes, Globe, etc. That audience is limited in scope and literally dying off.
Growing up, my 6 grade educated Grandfather (who quit school to work under the table in the mills to support his family), parents and even I would religiously read the morning (Globe) and evening paper (Lowell Sun) to get all of our news.
Another interesting side to Path #1 (if they found a way to legally reach into the past with it, which seems doubtful) is that it could have serious ramifications for the EPA, IRS, DOT, DOE, etc that creates “law” via regulation… Of course that all depends on how the case is put together I suppose.
Interesting point on TX gun laws Dan. I recently brought a sidearm to TX on business for the first time. I was shocked to see the 30.06 and 51% signs left and right. I’m not used to having such restrictions on where I can carry, so this took a bit of an adjustment.
Oh my goodness, he absolutely lost his mind from the get-go. Even when they introduced the two guests he was staring straight ahead and refusing to make eye contact with the host or the senator.
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