Despite permitless carry now the law in a majority of states and concealed carry with a permit allowed in most of the others, gun owners who do carry or keep a firearm in their vehicle probably didn’t realize every time they even drove into a U.S. Post Office parking lot to drop a letter into a mailbox, they were breaking federal law. And going into the actual post office, even late at night when no one else is there to grab your mail from a post office box with a gun riding in your waistband, forget about it, you were definitely breaking the law there.
Federal gun law bans the carry of firearms on much of its property, even in bathrooms and visitor centers on national lands, where a firearm might otherwise be permitted. And post offices, their parking lots, even the grounds around them have all been designated gun-free zones where being caught in possession of a firearm, even locked in your vehicle as you walked inside, could result in fines and imprisonment.
But not anymore…well, maybe.
A federal judge in Florida recently ruled that the federal law banning people from possessing guns in post offices or while on post office property is unconstitutional, citing the landmark Bruen case in which the U.S. Supreme Court affirmed the Second Amendment right to bear arms as an individual right and removing a host of obstacles many states had constructed to infringe upon those rights.
U.S. District Judge Kathryn Kimball Mizelle made the ruling in a case in which postal worker, Emmanuel Ayala, had been charged with illegally possessing a gun in a federal facility. Mizelle dismissed the gun charge against Ayala citing the unconstitutionality of the gun ban. A separate charge for forcibly resisting arrest remained in place however, according to U.S. News & World Report.
But does that means that is now the law of the land and gun owners are free to carry their handguns onto postal property? The impression you might get reading many of these recent news stories is yes. But the truth is a good deal more complicated.
As U.S. LawShield President Kirk Evans explains there are several reasons this ruling may not apply to all gun owners.
“This is a ruling out of a federal district court out of the middle district of Florida. There are other district courts and other districts in Florida, and the other districts in Florida do not necessarily have to follow this decision. The judges in those districts might rule exactly the opposite,” Evans says in a recently released video. “In addition, every other federal district court around the country doesn’t have to follow this decision either. The courts might rule the exact opposite, the courts might say I like that logic and issue a very similar ruling, but they do not have to follow it as precedent right now.”
Evans explains the case will almost certainly be appealed and the circuit court could ultimately rule to uphold or overturn the ruling in the Ayala case. More appeals could follow, possibly all the way up to the Supreme Court.
“So until we have some finality as to what the law is on this subject, we would highly, highly suggest you not take your firearm into a U.S. post office, even in the middle district of Florida,” Evans says.
He notes the type of challenge Ayala and his attorney filed an “as applied” challenge, based on the fact that he was an employee of the post office, not just a customer. Ayala’s lawyers argued because postal workers can receive threats and must sometimes deliver mail in dangerous areas, they should be allowed to protect themselves. As such, this ruling does not necessarily apply to the average customer…yet…or maybe never…or, well, we’ll have to wait and see.
Here’s the whole video and explanation and in it, Evans underscores, despite the ruling, the U.S. Postal Service Office has not changed their policy. They still view firearms on postal property as an illegal act. So, ship those packages with care.
Maybe illegal, huh? That means we need hundreds of people in each and every state to challenge law. Just make up your mind, “I will not comply”, get a dozen other people to do likewise. If the unconstitutional laws are not challenged, they well never be rescinded or struck down. Visit post office after post office while carrying, and get the world involved.
And since we’re all carrying concealed, it’s like a big silent protest.
“…get the world involved.”
But keep it a secret. Wait, wut?
ha.
changing the world without due process.
You could have a “yes I am carrying shirt”. Or carry open an open carry state, but not Florida.
But you have to be willing to be arrested for your civil disobedience.
“That means we need hundreds of people in each and every state to challenge law.”
That means getting arrested on a felony charge. That can cost you *everything* as your case winds through the courts.
Are you personally volunteering to be the test case?
The judge was quite clear in her decision, her ruling ONLY applied to the defendant in that one case in Florida. If you get busted carrying at in or around the Post Office property, you are are on your own. There is no injunction and no get out of jail free card!
(Not legal advice.)
did the origin of the term “going postal” factor into this?
There’s a story behind ‘Going Postal’.
Way back then, the USPS hired an efficiency expert to optimize how mail moves in-through regional postal processing centers. They did their study, submitted their report, and post office management implemented the changes as required ‘or else’.
These were folks with years of experience being told to do it the new way, or the highway. The new ‘instructions’ were an example of anal-retentive micro-management. Stupid shit like, turn this way, set something down a specific way.
For the old hands with decades of experience, this was beyond stressful, and some of them snapped like the metaphorical rubber band.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5pabb/the-legacy-of-going-postal
https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5pabb/the-legacy-of-going-postal
what does it mean when the post office flag is at half mast?
they’re hiring.
I always carry a pocket gun in and out of the post office. Conceal means concealed. Open carry is ok, but not in a Post Office. And only if you carry with the correct holster.
It’s not 1870.
Chris T in KY,
I believe that you unintentionally omitted 10 words from your first sentence. Please confirm that you meant to say, “I always think about the day when it will be legal to carry a pocket gun in and out of the post office.”
MADDMAXX February 2, 2024 At 14:33
Your comment is awaiting moderation
I have never not carried a concealed firearm on the few occasions that I find it necessary to enter into a US Postal facility… Concealed MEANS concealed, it’s only breaking the law if you get caught… FL Federal Court, Central District covers about 3/4s of the State, and I am covered by this one…
WTF? You REALLY have to explain this one, I guess I need to take some more time off, maybe a little longer this time…
Thank you for reminding me.
big(smile)
My response was in “moderation” hours ago. I don’t understand why???
Mine took more than 15 hours, going to go dark for a while, I really don’t need to be censored or “MODERATED”, I’m a fucking adult living in a country where the “FREE AND UNFETTERED EXCHANGE OF IDEAS” and “THE RIGHT TO SPEAK ONE’S MIND” is allegedly the norm… Maybe a couple of weeks will help me ADJUST to the Soshullist way of processing thought, but kinda fucking doubt it especially THAT post, there was absolutely NOTHING wrong with it, yet it just disappears, what’s next, fact checking? Spelling and grammar correction? I will never get used to having some bullshit computer program developed by some wanna-be fucking Dictator deciding what I can and cannot say…
“My response was in “moderation” hours ago. I don’t understand why???”
I suspect Dan Z. kept up on the TTAG comment section far faster and more often during the day than the new management does…
Hell almost everything I write is put in “moderation” here. Go figger, doesnt matter the topic or my wording or choice of words. Whoever moderates this place has control issues.
Never notified of follow-ups, either. And see, this comment is “moderated” too.
I’m not exactly your biggest fan Chris but you should know better than talking about purposely flaunting Federal Law. I’ve caught a number of state police officers carrying in the Post Office. I always remind them they can’t legally unless they are responding to a crime in progress. My warning usually goes in one ear and out the other but I assure you Postal Inspectors have no sense of humor and will charge you with a felony if caught.
I don’t agree either and usually park off postal property and leave my gun in the center counsel secured. It’s just not worth the hassle. I do see the courts at least allowing guns in the parking lot, including for employees but we have a ways to go before that happens.
Pretty sure you meant to start your rant with; In Minecraft….
So you’re a criminal, but not one of those bad 1870s criminals? Yeah, it’s an arbitrary law. But your reasoning is is right there with it.
Let him who is without sin… mumble, mumble, stutter…. … Oh, you know the thing… blah-blah-blah…
Why yes. I’m a criminal like Martin Luther King Jr. We both broke immoral laws. And yes I understand what will happen if I’m caught.
If you read books like,
“This nonviolent stuff will get you killed.” by Charles Cobb.
You will learn it was extremely common, in the 1950s, for non white people to break the law, by carrying a gun. Especially south of the Mason Dixon Line.
And in the 21st century the reason for non white people to carry a gun have not changed. Only now they are more likely to be attacked by a person of the same skin color.
btw
If I ever had to use my gun at a post office. And assuming I survive? I will not be sticking around to give the police a statement.
Also there are no traffic cameras in my area. Unlike in big cities. Where cameras are everywhere.
MLK marched in public and was arrested for his acts of civil disobedience.
You conceal a weapon in your pants and think you’re “stickin’ it to da man.”
One of these things is not like the other.
Unless and until we take a page from the potheads and others, and just do what we know is right despite the law, we will not make headway quickly or efficiently. Carry everywhere regardless signs, rules, regulations, or laws.
So much for equal protection under the law. Constitutional rights are a gift from Big Brother I guess. The so called Supreme Court could save untold millions of dollars and thousands of lawsuits just by stating that the Second Amendment means what it says, thus all prohibitions and restrictions against the Second are illegal and thus null and void including background check system.
TLDR: USPS employees and the cops, should they be called, might jam you up because they’re assholes.
Update – Post Office Gun Law FIASCO (Legal To Carry In Post Office?) US v Ayala in Florida Court.
Update – Post Office Gun Law FIASCO Legal To Carry In Post Office? US v Ayala in Florida Court.
Since I am beating the Ruling Class dead horse today, I might as well throw one last comment on the pile to emphasize how sick and sadistic many members of the Ruling Class are:
If those sick and sadistic members of the Ruling Class thought that they could get away with it, they would force parents to eat their children or children to eat their parents. No, I am not exaggerating. They really are THAT evil.
WTF is the ruling CLASS, no one is BORN to rule in this country (except maybe the Hildabeast)… Those who have ascended to the halls of power and authority need to be reminded that they are no better, smarter or wiser than anyone else, a fact that seems to be forgotten by most once they achieve a level of “leadership”… I think Al Gore tried to get a group of 12/13 year olds to eat their parents once… Anyone heard from him lately?
The judge ruled correctly. the federal law does not pursue the goal of proficient and skilled armed citizens, per 2A’s goal. it is therefore null and void.
Ankle carry wearing baggy pants in Post Office. No prob,been doing it for years.
Gonna be a lotta new felons!!
If I can’t carry a concealed weapon with me into a Post Office,
then I’ll carry a laser pointer and a concealed cat. Yes, cat (not a typo), not gat, cat.
I just shine the laser dot on the forehead of the bad guy, and my cat will do the rest!
It’s hard to conceal a cat, though. I can’t find a holster big enough for my cat.
Hmm, maybe a Mossberg Shockwave holster or a mare’s leg levergun holster?
Put the cat in the holster headfirst, draw him out by the tail so he’ll be all angry, fighting mad, as soon as I draw him from the holster!
I wrote a joke about carrying a concealed cat (cat, not a typo)
and my comment got sent to moderation.
I guess the word c-a-t (the animal) is banned on this website.
I tried it twice in a comment, and both times my comment got sent to moderation.
Three innocent comments sent to mod-er-ation!
Maybe commenting on them being sent to mod-er-ation got my followup comments mod-er-ated?
Testing
toerest
WAT too much “MODERATION” going on here… Guess they want to get rid of the old “Patriots” and load up with the newer “brainwashed” population… I’m okay with that, there is a shit load of REAL pro-gun sites on the internet I don’t NEED this one…
We were testing a username url filter to stop the spam bots from including links to malicious/spam sites in their usernames, there was a wp bug that resulted in emails with .com (almost all) being unintentionally blocked. The change has been reverted. Thanks for your patience.
Not really a “patient” man when it comes to my right to express myself, it’s your website and you have the right to conduct as you see fit, getting rid of some of the spam is a good thing and perhaps on this occasion I reacted a bit hastily but that was based on past experiences…
review
moderation
your comment is awaiting
italics
censorship
They will not call the cops. They will call the postal inspectors and I promise you they are not to be trifled with.
Catch me if you can! It’s a sign, not a cop. Not only is the (unsecured) federal property carry ban unconstitutional, it doesn’t even make sense. More often than not post offices are in rough urban areas. Their posted signage can’t prevent you from being mugged or worse on their property. You think I’m gonna go buy a $1000 money order with cash (ironically for a gun purchase) and not be speaking softly but carrying a big stick? Keep dreaming, and catch me if you can. COME AND TAKE IT.
The law also says they “can’t” mail drugs but the PO is the largest transportation division of the illicit trade still today so…..
Awww moderated again. Guess some feelings got into last few posts
Tell ya what just keep your site
Most likely why certain members of the staff. Are now former members of the staff.
I have some rather colorful language I could utilize to cement my opinion on such ban. Suffice to say I have always ignored it and will continue to do so. I’m NOT disarming myself because some idiotic federal law says so.
Concealed is concealed. Unless the goofballs in the post office grow X-ray vision eyeballs, nobody is going to know.
Federal gun law? or Prog REGULATION. Either is Unconstitional as reinforced by Bruen. As every other piece of Fed (citizen) ground. Bit being a test case will be expensive/painful.
I still have the two handguns my grandfather was required to carry when he got a contract to carry the mail in his truck. Since his shop/garage was about 100 feet from the town’s Post Office I fully imagine he carried them into the Post Office.
they wouldn’t even let us carry a gun into the post office when we were supposed to be guarding it…some of the guys complied…others just removed it from their holster and slipped it into a jacket pocket..out of sight out of mind….
Guns On USPS Property: Do Not Trust Headlines or Press Releases > https://shootingnewsweekly.com/story/1880/guns-on-usps-property-do-not-trust-headlines-and-press-releases
what is it with the darn moderation going on? Every thing I’m posting goes into moderation, and maybe this comment too.
Disgusting, California Uses Old Racist Gun Laws To Justify Requiring Background Checks For Ammo.
2A win: US District Court (Obama appointed) judge in Illinois find federal gun control law 18 USC 922(g)(1) to be unconstitutional under the 2nd Amendment.
Following the historical Founding Era test in Bruen, prohibiting carrying of firearms in “Post Offices and post Roads” is unconstitutional.
In the Founding Era, there were no prohibitions against the carrying of firearms in the Post Offices and on the postal Roads that were established by Congress per Article I, Section 8 of the US Constitution.
That didn’t change until a couple of disgruntled employees went “Postal”… You know the thought process, “Hey, let’s make it illegal to bring a gun onto Post Office property, I’m pretty sure someone determined to commit murder would stop when they realize they could go to jail if they get caught with a gun in the Post Office”…
Hey all,
Regarding the comments getting unintentionally moderated, we were adding some url strings to the username filter list in an Hey All,
Regarding the comments getting unintentionally moderated, we were adding some url strings to the username filter list in an effort to remove spam accounts that bypass the comment filter by including the url to their spam site in the name field rather than the body of the text. I have been talking with the web development team about some additional plugins to assist with this to avoid using the old school ‘filter list’, but I do not want to implement a captcha because I find them personally annoying, and as such have been attempting other workarounds in the interim. The moderation filter list had not been edited from the time Dan was running it up until yesterday, and the only additional fields were things like .shop, etc. I appreciate everyone’s patience, rest assured nobody here has any intention of censoring the comments.
The changes have since been reverted and any comments that were unintentionally sent to pending have been approved.
Funny. Dan & Jeremy always seemed to shrug and say the rules were the rules and they couldn’t be modified. New guy steps in and says be patient, we’re working on it. I always thought it was just zeroes and ones that could be rearranged, but maybe they gave up or never even tried. Good luck, Justin. Maybe you’ll crack the code.
The site currently has very little friction with user interaction. Currently, basically anyone can jump on and make a quick comment or be involved in the discussion. Making it easy for users (not requiring login, no captcha, no email verification, etc.) makes it similarly easy for spammers. The compromise to make a seamless user experience is a more robust spam filter to attempt to keep out the spam comments (an average day is roughly 300 spam comments for each actual comment). I prefer it the way it is from a user experience point of view, and I dislike sites that use things like disqus for comments, etc.
I have seen comments get flagged that I have not yet been able to determine the exact reason, some of you whom I’ve corresponded with via email, which is why we are testing alternate solutions and plugins. I will say that if you make a comment and it gets moderated, we are typically able to check the queue a few times per day, and if you’re a regular user we can quickly manually approve them.
I assure you if it’s a normal comment, especially from a regular commenter, it is getting approved, there is no need to try to re-work and repost a variation of the original comment to get around the filter. We need to correct the filter, not be a hinderance on the users of the site.
MADDMAXX February 4, 2024 At 13:38
Your comment is awaiting moderation
Word Socialist still get moderated?
Ooooppps, why yes it does, but not Communist, Nazi, Fascist fuck etc, just “SOCIALIST”… Explain that since no one else has seemed interested in doing so…
This new “Justin” AI that TTAG is using writes just like a real person. It is so hard to tell the difference between AI and human. /jk
In all seriousness, thanks for considering the balance between the occasional, yet annoying “moderation”, versus the constant scrolling through spam posts. I make enough money, don’t need to meet women in my area and my penis size is just fine.
Thanks Justin.
Your comment is awaiting moderation
More likely that the thousands that did carry into, or on the property, were aware that the Federal Law was Unconstitutional, and INFRINGED upon our right.
I can’t remember the last time, I entered a post office. San concealed carry firearm. Possibly 45 years ago, before I started carrying everyday.
In order to maintain a civilized society you must obey the law. Until the law is used to oppress your basic human rights. Then that law must be changed using civilized challenges, like Peaceful protests. And civilized methods, like attending meetings.
They use to say that, “the ballot box is better than the cartridge box.”
And that is very true. We voted Republican for decades now. And getting the change we wanted. But it took a very very long time.
And like it or not. It has been Republican appointed judges like Anthony Scalia. Starting in the 1980s that got us to the Bruen decision now in 2023.
And yes, you can resist those laws by breaking those laws. And not tell anyone when you do it. So carry concealed CORRECTLY. Because if you do it correctly you will be less likely to be discovered.
https://gunwatch.blogspot.com/2023/09/criminal-complaint-filed-in-montana-gun.html
Please spend some money for the case if you can !
Lets hope this got an 101% Unconstitutional Ruling too in future toghether with this here and the nfa shit 🙂
Good Development
Here in NY even with this ruling, NYS law prohibits carrying a firearm in a “government building”.
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