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Dustin R. writes:

I just found your sight recently and love it. I’ve been shooting all my life, and recently went from being a FUDD to being, well, whatever I am. I have been a contractor overseas for many years in the Middle East and currently work in the defense industry here at home. I’m writing because I see recent events being touted as the worst massacre in modern US history by those that would disarm us. I know everyone has their own opinions of a recent event but has anyone considered that . . .

On April 9, 1993, agents of the ATF and FBI were responsible whether by action or inaction of the deaths of 67 people at the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, TX. I know, “they were all nutjobs.” Well my response is “won’t someone think of the children?” I say that because of those 67 who died, 24 were children, 2 of whom were unborn.

Sixty-seven people died in order to arrest one man, at their church. I hear that people don’t believe its a church or a religion. Honestly if Scientology is considered a religion then so was whatever they were.

Just my opinion, others may vary. But thought you guys might find this information useful in the war on our rights for those that say “why do you need these things?” or “we would never need to defend ourselves from the government.” While the details around the events at Waco are cloudy at best, the results are not very far off from our worst nightmare.


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  1. full blown revolution, not likely….political, sectarian or religious violence..quite possible, especially with this crappy economy.

  2. They could have picked up Koresh in town just about any week. This wasn’t about that. It was about punishing them for thumbing their noses at the Feds. By roasting them alive.

    To me, THAT was the day the first shots were fired.

    • +1

      and yet Bill Clinton is being thought of as such a wonderful leader in the press today. The younger generation doesn’t remember these deaths and the constant barrage of scandals and lies.

      • Hell, FDR is idolized and yet he had 100,000 Americans rounded up at gun point and put into “internment” camps simply because of their race. Most of these people were American citizens. As far as I know all had legal status in this country.

        • @jwm – You don’t need to put “internment” in quotes. The US government even says these US citizens were interned in “military-style” camps.

          In 1942, the United States government ordered more than 110,000 men, women, and children to leave their homes and detained them in remote, military-style camps. Manzanar War Relocation Center was one of ten camps where Japanese American citizens and resident Japanese aliens were interned during World War II.

          Evacuation orders were posted in Japanese-American communities giving instructions on how to comply with the executive order. Many families sold their homes, their stores, and most of their assets. They could not be certain their homes and livelihoods would still be there upon their return. Because of the mad rush to sell, properties and inventories were often sold at a fraction of their true value.

        • And now coming to a camp near you :
          Law Abiding Gun Owners
          And last but not least THOSE WHO BELIEVE in the BILL OF RIGHTS.(all TEN)

    • f^ck that.

      the first shots of government tyranny can be dated to the illegal imprisonment of japanese americans and the genocide (yes genocide) of native americans.

  3. I was too young to be fully aware of Waco, but reading up on it when I was in my mid-twenties is what really made me realize the value of independent thinking and research. I was horrified that not only could the government get away with this, but the public by and large didn’t care. It was a first-hand look at the power of media marginalization and the inherent evil of government.

    An eye-opening experience.

    • They might have cared had they not been programmed to believe everything they saw on TV and in the news, and to believe that the people who call themselves “government” had the people’s interest in mind and not just their own.

  4. Maybe I’ve drunk the koolaid, but it always seemed to me that Koresh and his group suicided, just like the Jim Jones group in Guyana.

    • Sorry no, you are incorrect. They did not suicide themselves, the government got tired of the standoff and losing face, so they attacked.

    • Isnt letting yourself be burnt alive a rather unusual way of suicide? Especially compared to drinking poisoned koolaid.

    • The FBI put the word out in the press before the final assault on April 19th that Koresh might to try to stage a Jim Jones style mass suicide, thus setting the narrative for what happened next. Any “suicides” inside the compound were probably due to the fact that they were all being gassed to within an inch of their lives.

    • Do some serious research on Jim Jones. Not everyone drank the kool-aid and they weren’t necessarily shot in the back by Peoples Temple enforcers.
      Even weird people don’t expect the weirdness they encounter from the government.

  5. I remember the first time I heard about Ruby Ridge. It was an excerpt from a book (one of those big hard back Readers Digest ones my dad picked up at an auction for like 5 buck for 100 books) and it terrified me.

    Apparently after the ATF shot the wife, they spent the next few hours taunting the husband by talking to her, trying to convince HER to convince her husband to give up. I don’t know how any human can be so cold to mock a person like that after killing their soul mate…

        • You said it, I didn’t. Actually with Horiuchi the story gets worse. Idaho tried to charge Horiuchi with manslaughter for Vicki Weaver’s death… then the Feds came in and took jurisdiction. A Federal Judge claimed “Federal Supremacy”: since Horiuchi was shooting as a Federal Agent he had immunity from any wrongdoing. Apparently if you’re a Fed, and your fellow Feds don’t want to prosecute you, you can pretty much do anything you like.

        • Agreed. How do you put a 50 cal round in the eye of a woman holding a baby? Why is he still alive?
          All for a frame job with a sawed off shotgun.

        • im NOT advocating human-induced harm to this piece of slime on the rim of a truck stop toilet (on the contrary, i hope he lives long to suffer from the guilt of his crime).

          I can legally, however, wish leukemia or some other painful cancer on him.

          “Apparently if you’re a Fed, and your fellow Feds don’t want to prosecute you, you can pretty much do anything you like.”

          like this person?

          oh guess what? he got a pardon from clinton.

          the immensity of the severely criminal activity from these douchebags never ceases to amaze me. and the sad part is that significant parts of our population actually worship these criminals; that says a lot about the american people.

  6. I wasn’t really old enough to understand just how terrible our govt’s actions were in Waco. My dad explained it very simply. He said, “that is not the way you deliver a warrant in this country. Besides, you are allowed to own guns, especially in Texas.”

    That was my first experience with the tyranny that is the federal government.

  7. And Janet Reno went out to say she took responsibility for the mess.
    But showed up at her desk the next day like nothing happened. Never has payed her bill. That’s some serious red in the ledger.

  8. How dare you, Sir! The Branch Davidians were extremists
    of the highest order! To say the killing of 67 extremists,
    24 of which were kids, by tyrannical, out of control and
    possibly incompetent federal agencies is an outrage! Why
    these agencies only ever look at protecting the American
    people, and would never blindly follow orders from
    politicians if it meant someone undeserving would be

    Now why don’t you sit down, relax, drink this nice kool-
    aid, and will have a rational discussion of why your wrong.

    • When does the mall open? Is X Factor on tonight? We don’t need any rights as long as I always have an iPhone and Facebook. Narcissism never felt so good.

        • I recommend reading every page of dieoff. Jay Hanson might be one of the smartest, honest people on the planet.

        • sorry to get off subject,

          “Energy has always been the basis of cultural complexity and it always will be … the past clarifies potential paths to the future. One often-discussed path is cultural and economic simplicity and lower energy costs. This could come about through the “crash” that many fear —a genuine collapse over a period of one or two generations, with much violence, starvation, and loss of population. The alternative is the “soft landing” that many people hope for—a voluntary change to solar energy and green fuels, energy-conserving technologies, and less overall consumption. This is a utopian alternative that, as suggested above, will come about only if severe, prolonged hardship in industrial nations makes it attractive, and if economic growth and consumerism can be removed from the realm of ideology. ”
          —Joseph A. Tainter

          f^cking poetry if there ever was poetry.

  9. Premise Four: Civilization is based on a clearly defined and widely accepted yet often unarticulated hierarchy.

    • Violence done by those higher on the hierarchy to those lower is nearly always invisible, that is, unnoticed. When it is noticed, it is fully rationalized.

    • Violence done by those lower on the hierarchy to those higher is unthinkable, and when it does occur is regarded with shock, horror, and the fetishization of the victims.

    ~Derrick Jensen
    Endgame (2006)

  10. I became a conservative in 1964 when I read Barry Goldwater’s book and took part in his campaign. As an attorney, I distrusted government and was a firsthand witness to many abuses of power. But I became something else indeed after Waco and Ruby Ridge.

    There was a tendency to blame both disasters on that murderous b!tch, Janet Reno. But really, both attacks were examples of government doing what government does. All the time. Everywhere.

    It can’t happen here? Hell, it already has. And those who cannot remember the past should be forced to repeat it.

    • I joined and served and saw first hand what the government does to its own people. In and out of uniform I didn’t trust nor would I drink the Kool-Aid.

  11. If you haven’t yet, please take the time to watch “Waco: The Rules of Engagement” and “Waco: A New Revelation”. You can find both on YouTube. The list of unlawful acts by the government before, during, and after the Waco Siege is so long as to be unfathomable.

  12. Show the prof the Government is the bad guy in the end. Germany in the 20s was a democracy and had normal social norms long come Hitler and gun bans and hello you got the BIG nightmare in the 20th century.

  13. Fellow Americans, fellow shooters,

    There is a good probability that I have been shooting longer than many of you have been alive. Been a few places, seen a few things, have heard my fair share of bull, and of truth. Both evidenced by how they transpire through time.
    Should not come as rocket science that we are being manipulated by the media and have been for quite some time. Whether it be TV, radio, ink rag or the worldwide WTF. They spew the message that their puppet masters script for them.
    There is little, if any, real core difference between the slaughter at Waco and the one at Sandy Hook. What polishes the turd is the spin. And we all know that spin machine is now running on maximum cycle.
    We should be critical and we should be careful. The powers that be want nothing less than a spooked and panicked herd. Any excuse for rounding them up or taking them down, before they can stampede.
    TTAG? They are useful tools. They are an enjoyable recreational pastime. They are necessary to hold tyranny at bay.

  14. You know not too long ago the government sent out troops to enforce the gun ban, seems the people were all very peace loving and good people , the place was Lexington & Concord spring 1775.. For some reason the Government could not understand . they shot back, then give up private owned guns, food and other stores. You just never know what people will do if pushed to the wall ?

  15. I remember WACO and the FBI playing music before the final hours that included the song with the lyrics “you’re gonna burn”. The ATF agents involved in the raid that morning were not expecting resistance, and to be able to push around some Christians living on a farm and then claim to the nation how much America needs the ATF.

  16. Waco, Ruby Ridge, Osage Ave, New Orleans after Katrina, and the list goes on. There should be no surprise that the gubmint will stomp, bomb, burn, shoot anyone it deems to be non-compliant.

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