When The Intruder is a Cop

Drawing my weapon on a gun that is already on me is probably not a great decision. Yeah, I understand action is faster than reaction. But still…

You’re taking a civil case about liability and confusing it with duty. While police officers cannot be held personally liable for individual’s safety* that is not the same thing as ‘duty’.

The duty of police is what society demands, not what a court finds is actionable in a civil trial. And society will not accept if the police simple say “we are not responsible for any person’s safety” and don’t bother. Society will not accept if the police knock on the door of a suicidal teen, shrug, and drive off upon getting no answer. I know this because I see the kind of crap society at large demands of cops- and society at large is different in its views than the people commenting TTAG. Think about how much of the general population actually accepts that they are responsible for their own safety. Not that much.

It’s easy to get complaints from victims that you aren’t ‘doing your job’ when you refuse to violate people’s rights (i.e. “those kids are making too much noise with their party, break the door down or something or I’m calling my friend the chief!”). But refusing to do anything that is even within the law is not going to fly unless everyone has the libertarian views often espoused here. I’m not saying those views are right or wrong, but the police are what society makes them. And that’s why I suggested a sort of ‘do not check welfare’ list. It wouldn’t eliminate the problem but it would at least reduce it.

umm yes they do…

they have no liability if they can’t since they are trying to deal with some kid who sent texts that made the other kid, their parents, cop think something bad was going to happen.

Supreme court ruled on this in the 80’s and you do something stupid like shoot a cop and 100 more will be after you. Now you may live to be on trial which hardly ever does someone not get convicted and most states have auto death….

People don’t get why a cop was trying to be stealthy… umm if a person is going to kill themselves then sirens and crap could make them just do it. People need to pull their head out and think gee does a cop want to go to a persons house in the day who is sending this crap to others… I know three dead over this type of call and cops tend to hate suicidal welfare checks since the odds of a weapon sky rocket.

People don’t realize how laws like auto life or death for cop killers passed the supreme court so easy. So man up and if that scared put some lights up outside and stop being so trigger happy since the person has to be breaking the law and be a credible threat to even think about a gun and first responder doing their job is not breaking the law and why supreme court ruled killing them because you disagree is not ok.

hell you don’t even OWN your land to start… The Gov owns all land within its borders and there is no country that doesn’t follow that basic rule. I mean heck how can they take it away if you own it…

So, if the “supreme court” decided that all women should fall into bed with Bill Clinton if he winks at them… or all men (outside of their cronies) needed his willy pruned somehow… this would be fine with you? Or do you have some sort of Ouija board to tell you when the “court” should and shouldn’t be able to dictate things? Remember that what seems reasonable and acceptable to you isn’t automatically agreeable to everyone else..

The court has a political agenda, just as with every other government entity. Has very little to do with legitimate law or even rational thinking.

If a potential suicide results in someone getting killed, it should be the suicidal person 100% of the time, not a cop and not a disinterested homeowner. Stay out of backyards in the middle of the night, as a general rule, as a fallback position. Then train and discuss circumstances under which you might disregard that basic rule.

Keep telling us you are certain of the laws of 50 states. In TX, many rules change when the sun goes down. That one? I dunno, I don’t care. Cops here have more sense than you describe.

And I often have deliverymen leaving packages on my porch, in the daytime and with a loudly marked truck easily visible out front, not sneaking around my back yard at midnight. It is not the same.

So you are telling me that all cops are all or nothing? Kneel in worship as I pass or I will laugh as I watch you die? You are a sick puppy, and I think you are absolutely wrong.

When your house is on fire (10ft from the neighbors house) I coming and putting the fire out. No matter what you say about anything.

Wouldn’t most sane people recognize a house fire as “exigent circumstances”?

” (all house fires are caused by human).”

Lightning is only a rumor? There has never actually been a tornado? What year were gas line leaks finally conquered?

Completely ignoring the rest of my comment. Shame on you, Larry. 🙂

But a lot also depends on where you are. Out here, I’d KNOW if there was an officer behind that badge, since I know all 7 of them personally.

In a urban setting, it could get very complicated, which is why at least some effort at verification of the report seems like a good first step. In any case, sneaking around in a dark back yard does not seem to me to be a good idea… for a cop or anyone else.

Try that in MY back yard, and you might well have a shotgun pointed at your guts. Whoever you are… if I didn’t recognize you.

So are you suggesting we only hire cops who have proved that they’re psychic? Cause otherwise hindsight is meaningless.

No one can blame the police for not saving a hypothetical suicidal kid. We can only comment on what actually happened, which requires no psychic powers.

But unless the cops were psychic, they couldn’t KNOW that there was no suicidal kid. It’s like someone saying “you shouldn’t have shot him, his gun wasn’t loaded!”

What at least some of us are saying is “don’t invade someone’s home without a warrant or permission due to a phone call from an unidentified person claiming anything, I don’t care what.” If you know who is making the call, it is still a risk, but if everybody survives (as in this case), you can find the swatter and fine/imprison the jackass adequately to discourage repeat adventures. Was anybody arrested for this crap?

B

The officer was there lawfully in the performance of his duties. He knocked on the door and was trying to make contact by knocking on the back door. He did not make entry into the house. He was not legally trespassing. So perhaps you should do your research before you run your mouth

He was not legally trespassing.

In what state does “trespassing” only apply to dwellings, rather than to curtilage and real property as well?

Do your neighbors regularly come over to use your grill, or your swimming pool? Do you borrow your neighbors’ lawn chairs and lawn equipment? You know better than that, it is called trespassing.

In many places entering easily-accessed property in order to provide a service is not considered trespassing. Police get included along with the postal worker, FedEx driver, flower delivery girl, etc. The difference lies in having a specific service at a specific address; the uniform in itself is irrelevant.

As a former fire fighter I know that cops do have the duty to protect the life of someone who is trying to kill themselves. No one has the legal right to attempt or commit suicide, think about all the political fights over assisted suicide laws for the terminally ill. It is illegal in 47 states to attempt to kill yourself if you have a terminal disease.

When we got a suicide call we, cops and firefighters/emts had to make entry to the home to verify that the person was ok. Then, we had to legally take them to the hospital for a psych check. If they did not go willingly they were cuffed to the gurny.

So, to the law there is very little difference between a suicide that and a threat to kill someone else. In each case a life is being threatened, it does not matter if it is your own.

If you don’t believe me just think about how it would go if someone tried to commit suicide in a police station lobby. When the person declines cop help are they just going to stand there and watch?

Pull a gun in the lobby of the cop shop and I’m pretty sure you DID just committed suicide Wouldn’t even have to waste your own ammo.

If that’s the truth, I would keep in my pocket the names and numbers of several people who are responsible for that manner of stupidity, and if an illegal entry had to be made into private property without a warrant, call them up and tell them where to show up, I’ll point out the house to you from behind a tree.

Homeowners aren’t psychic, either. Nothing they do to that homeowner will bring back the volunteer firefighter. If it was an armed plain clothes cop inside the house who shot the homeowner would that be an acceptable outcome? Do we want to stop stupid deaths or keep the same old “sometimes to save the village you have to destroy the village” policy?

The point I was making is not that the homeowner was necessarily at fault (I don’t know about the case). But because of cases like that EMTs and firefighters in my area will NOT respond without the police being there first. They don’t want to get shot. So it doesn’t really solve the issue.

Ditto — I’ve been a firefighter- a fire ground officer – and a paramedic among many other things in my life. in SOME cities there were ‘no entry without cop’ rules, and that was two double cars before the Ambulance/Engine could enter – having a heart-attack? you died because of that rule. Appartment fire? make that 3 or 4, not one. The rule was in place because residents of the neighborhoods TENDED to be ‘gang-bangers’ and would rob the rig of it’s opiate drugs, Engines of their ‘brass’ and medical kits, and hold EMT-II’s and Paramedics at gun point for their trauma pack drugs. I’d say about 100% of heart attacks died in those ‘projects’ because of delayed response time. A third twin squad car would roll in about 5 min after our arrival and stake out our rig from a different angle, not just one fore and one aft. 6 cops and two ALS personnel for ONE heart attack. It’s the neighborhood, and sadly a LOT of people died – and brain damaged from loss of blood because we’d often wait up to 10 minutes for enough cars and people to show up– two singles did not equal 1 double cop car.

A paramedic, a guy I went to school with, was responding to ‘woman down’ — he pounded on front door of what he did not realize was a house turned into apartments (so said his responding EMT) — really loud and gave FD ID, lights on rig flashing, no siren – it’s too loud for residential neighborhood. His EMT was getting the ALS Trauma kit from the rig (BLS kit went first with Paramedic who was always first in) — When he went to open door to shout ‘FIRE DEPARTMENT RESCUE’ – he got a 12 gauge in the chest and died – seemed a tenant on first floor closest the door thought cops had a warrant for him, and shot first. Tenant is known, but not captured yet that I know of.

In other areas, when we’d get a call out for medical, Ambulance rolled first, engine second, Cops when they could, often inside of 10 minutes – on duty was the Primary Fire Engineer and a Paramedic (also an Fire Engineer) – and volunteers, all EMT-I’s or II’s, responded in their own vehicles to the station if call was outside of a 1/4 mile radius of the city, or to the address – rule #1, KEEP YOUR BLINKERS ON TO GUIDE OTHERS – and #2 POUND THE CRAP OUT OF THE FRONT DOOR IF FIRST RING OR KNOCK DIDN’T BRING RESPONSE – and scream FIRE-RESCUE!!!! LOUD – if outside the .25 mile radius, often EMT’s closer to address than station would show up first and follow rules 1,2 above. NEVER enter a house UNLESS FRONT door was open, and they had screamed their ID — never lost a man. And we entered a LOT of houses where 1) victim had called in ‘I think I’m having a heart attack” or ‘My wife/husband is really sick, maybe a heart attack.” 2) person was LOC when we arrived and could not respond to our calls, but was absolutely alive (think broken arm with loss of blood, hit head with swelling of brain or blood/CSF in skull – etc).

In a report of ‘smoke in area’ — would go around and after dark or late evening – laze house with spot light – and engine lights on – then knock – while another person would look around for smoke using the ‘new’ Mag lights on the market – (dating myself here) never had a complaint. People understood the nature of fire. Pull a firearm on a firefighter, even a volunteer in civvies, go to jail.

In rural areas, you can see flashing lights and strobes for MILES to come and sirens on during response alerted neighbors 1) we were in area and 2) they might be needed to get dressed and FOLLOW us. Often, in rural areas, addresses are hard to find so we would sometimes be lead in by a neighbor sitting shotgun with ‘navigator-raidoman in center or strapped to running board (or in hose bed if in open cabin like a lot of Le Frances).

Unspoken rule – shoot a firefighter-EMT, you die while trying to escape, same as for a cop. I was once asked to ‘witness’ several ‘escape’ attempts from a miner who had holed up and was shooting AT cops when BLM found him operating a claim that did not belong to him – as reported by the claim owner. Damn shame he fell down the bank so many times, sometimes people don’t learn you can’t run well with your hand behind your back while on steep gravel slopes. — the fact that he was not shot-and-killed by SO units – some of whom were ex-military ‘experts’ or ‘DM’s’ — was because the idea was NOT to kill him but to make him surrender, even though he started the fire-fight and continued it – it was felt he was not a ‘real’ threat even though returning fire. And, yeah, you HAD to be there to understand the ‘rules of engagement’ for that particular situation.

I have found – 90% of the times cops ARE good guys who look at the world with a jaded eye. Firefighters are the opposite – when a cop shows up, At BEST only ONE person is happy — often no one is happy. When a firefighter shows up EVERYONE is happy. That “looking glass self’ – makes even good cops take a skeptical view of the world – I’ve been pulled over in counties I didn’t live in and would always announce to THOSE cops that I had firearms in the car if they ever asked me to step out- one state I ‘live’ in requires every CCW holder to let the cop know, even if unarmed – and so I have spent a lot of time in the back of squad cars, most often with door open, un hand-cuffed, talking with the cop as he ran my firearms. I understood why he was doing it — and unless was given a particularly hard time, even thanked them- hell they may have been MY stolen firearms – and in counties were I lived and was known by LEA’s I’d simply tell them I had a firearm in the vehicle, and when they asked where– tell them – and they’d smile and say ‘don’t make any fast moves in that direction’ and we’d both kind of smile – and when I had to show registration or insurance to a newer cop who knew me – I’d say — there’s a firearm in the glove compartment, I’d feel better if YOU did it while I was in front (back) of your unit – and only once did they take me up, they normally would ask – chambered, I’d say no, and they said, ok, just take out the gun slowly and safe if and put it on the dash – sometimes they’d put it on the hood or roof, other times just leave it there – it’s the attitude of the driver, and if you know them or not – one reason to live in a small town.

BACK YARDS – I’ve covered back-yards – but on my small ranch I’ll see people across the valley a few times a month – and if they are just traveling through – no harm no foul – just them and sheep and some young cattle – and sometimes it’s a BLM truck – and I know most of them so I have no care – and sometimes its cops in FWD’s and I’ll call and see what’s up – and often they are looking for a ‘lost hunter’ or ‘missing kid’ from a neighbors – so I’ll join in.

Cops come to my door a couple of times a year – and they are not the gestapo – they are investigating something and want to know if I know something – or when I’m evicting a bad tenant they are mostly always welcome –

I don’t understand the kill them first, ask questions later mentality — MOST people are good — MOST people do not mean you harm — and the more I read blogs like this and see the divide between those who want to shoot first and those who have a more sane reaction – the more I think that not only FULL – more than now – background checks be done – but that every gun owner should have a short psych evaluation – even if just on paper — to screen out the crazies – the ones who think opening a side gate is grounds to open fire to kill – or that your lawnmower being taken is more important than human life — or that a cop who is trying to do a welfare check on – even a bogus – suicide should not check on the well-being of another human should be denied the right to own a firearm because they are a danger to themselves and others. I am not against suicide – that is between a person and their God — but when you telegraph it — or are told it has been telegraphed, then cops and EMT’s have the DUTY to follow through with their duty to ‘protect and serve’ — and that even means entering a house to see if a person is critically injured – at best, it saves an ugly clean up job – anyone seen what a corpse can do to a rug or chair or the smell they can put into the walls of a room after a week of rotting? And at worst – remove the suicide before it’s more than soap and water clean-up. If there IS no suicide – at least a person should feel lucky to have friends who care enough that they call in a welfare check – I have a neighbor I’ve called a welfare check on a few times – he lives alone – and no answer on the phone or returns call in a day, I’ll drive over – and if I don’t see him — or get a response from a locked house – I’ll call the LEA and have THEM do a welfare check – at 75 you can trip and fall and not be able to get up – or stroke out and die in a chair – a million things can happen. It’s about caring about others over your property or thinking that EVERYONE is out to get you. THAT should be grounds for denying a person a firearm. period.

If cops are ‘bad guys’ – you either best MOVE — or figure out what it is in YOU that makes you so damn paranoid of people who have more power than you, — or become part of ‘them’ so when ‘it’ happens, you are on the side with the massive firepower, endless ammo, and can pass information to the ‘underground’ about plans about future movements. I find more ‘jerk’ cops than firefighters – but then I also find more ‘jerk’ people than cops. I’m old enough that it can roll off me – we all feel our oats as young bucks – but killing someone has NEVER been part of my ‘life view’ or ‘World View’ — in fact – it’s been the ability of DE-ESCALATION that has always made the most impression on me.

Maybe it’s the lack of a Draft and a LOT of people seeing combat up-close and personal that makes they kill-happy– and ANY ones who has EVER been in a firefight and taken causalities knows EXACTLY what I mean. If more people saw what war does to people when others are short – what kinds of things go on inside your head for the rest of your life, the fewer people we’d have out there wanting — waiting — for a reason to kill someone. — Trust ANY vet – it ain’t like any movie you’ve EVER seen. Until you’ve seen – and had – the 1000 yard stare, you don’t have a f-ing clue what it’s like to kill someone – or to have someone seriously try to kill you. I was in the jungle so I like wide open places like the Basins and Ranges — I can’t imagine where vets from the ‘Sand box’ will end up more comfortable – in trees? or out on the ‘plyas’ or the Basins and Ranges where they can see forever on a perfectly flat surface – and ANYTHING higher than an inch can be seen – Jack Rabbits don’t like it, but if you need to with a good pair of binoculars — say 15-20x you can spot them on the horizon that can be a mile or more away —

MAYBE people who want to shoot first and question later should be the first to enlist and ask for advanced fire training so they can be on the front line and get the paranoia out of their system, and get the ‘kick’ (no pun intended) of return fire to the ‘bad guys’. That MIGHT help them understand the reality of killing someone and the arm-chair hero feeling of killing someone, anyone, who knocks on their back door at night. Trust me – ‘inside the wire’ is mostly a night time thing — and sending rounds downrange doesn’t feel quite as ‘heroic’ as it does when you are sitting in YOUR living room watching TV – but WAIT! — you ARE in your ‘living room’ (hootch) watching TV — and ‘they’ ARE trying to break into your back yard and kill you – so you should feel right at home. And you have every kind of ‘black gun’ you need – and all the ammo you need to ‘kill’ ANYONE in your backyard!!!! You’ll be in Arm Chair Heaven!!!!!