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It was late. I was tired. And I was driving home from visiting my girlfriend. A little distracted, I was thinking about bed more so that my driving. As I crossed the last major road before I got to my neighborhood, I heard a siren and saw the flashing lights in my rear-view mirror. Understand, it’s probably been thirty years since I’ve had a moving violation. I’m a very careful driver. I try to obey all the traffic laws, and I’m usually a very attentive driver…

I really had no idea what I’d done, to be honest. I’m not saying I did nothing wrong. I just didn’t realize that I’d broken any traffic laws. Now keep in mind, I have a valid license and a CHL, issued in the state of Texas. That night, I was not carrying.

As the officer approached the vehicle, I opened the door of my Jeep (with half-doors, unzipping the windows is problematic at best). The officer said “license and registration, please.”

My reply? “Yes sir, officer,” and I handed over both my license and my permit, as is required by law.

“Are you carrying this evening?” he asked.

“No sir.”

“Please step out of the vehicle so I can pat you down,” he instructed. I complied. At that point, I mentioned that I carry a tactical knife in my right front pocket. He relieved me of the knife and told me I’d get it back after the traffic stop.

“What did I do wrong, officer?” I inquired.

“You were speeding in a residential neighborhood, and didn’t come to a complete stop at that stop sign,” he told me. “I’m gonna go run your license. Just have a seat, and I’ll have you out of here as soon as possible.”

As I waited, I thought, “Gee, this might be an opportunity to get to hear the police officer’s side of making a traffic stop with someone that has a concealed weapon permit.” I started to go for my wallet, then thought, “I don’t want to make any sudden moves or do anything that would make the officer question my actions,” so I extended my hands out of the car, where he could see them, found the business card, and then put my hands back in the car.

True to his word, the stop didn’t take too long. He approached the vehicle and handed me my license, permit, and knife. “Mr. Kozak, because you were so polite and cooperative, I’m not going to ticket you for the speeding infraction. I do have to write you up for the stop sign. Just be more careful next time, okay?”

After that, I told him about TTAG, and asked if he would call me when he’s off-duty, so I could interview him about his experiences (without naming names, of course) in dealing with people that are licensed to carry concealed weapons. He agreed to call, and we both went about our lives. (Haven’t heard from him yet. If/when, I’ll write it up.

From my point of view, a couple of observations. I really hadn’t done anything wrong, other than the moving violations. But I noted that my adrenal glands had kicked in, and I was slightly nervous, with an accelerated heartbeat and slightly faster respiration. If that’s what happens on a routine traffic stop, imagine what it would have been like, had I been carrying concealed. Adrenalin is a factor you really don’t wanna discount when dealing with a stress-inducing situation.

Had I been carrying, or had I neglected/forgotten to hand over my concealed permit, this situation could have gone south, quickly. If I were a cop, and I was confronted with someone who looked as if they were being evasive about a permit or a gun, I would automatically assume the worst and act accordingly. That’s human nature.

I’m also aware that politeness counts for a lot in such situations. The best way to diffuse a situation is to be unfailingly polite, even if the other party isn’t. As luck would have it, the officer in question was a pro – very polite and efficient. But again, I’m sure his reactions would have been different had I been surly, uncooperative, or sarcastic. (Those that know me might assume I’d be my usual sarcastic self around a police officer. Not gonna happen.)

My position from the start is that policemen have a dirty, thankless job. They aren’t paid nearly enough to put their lives in danger. And they don’t need any lip from me to make things worse. On the other hand, I’ve found that if you show them respect, cooperate, and are as polite as possible (without being overly-solicitous or snarky) it can go a long way towards making a difficult situation less difficult.

In my college days I had a roommate who was pulled over a couple of times for traffic violations. He has the same kind of smart-mouth that I’m known for. Only he doesn’t share my belief that being unfailingly polite to police officers is a life rule. Let me share with you a few of the things he’s said during traffic stops, and the outcome of same:

  • “What’s the matter…haven’t made your ticket quote yet?”
    (He got a ticket. A big one.)
  • “Shouldn’t you be at a Donut Shop right now?”
  • “What’s wrong – out of chocolate sprinkles?”
    (THAT one cost him.)
  • “Can we get this over with…I’m in a hurry.”
    (NOT smart.)

and my personal favorite:

  • “What…you couldn’t catch the fast guys so you settled for me?”
    (He had a death wish. Seriously.)

Would I do anything differently if there’s a next time? Well, other than having my gun on me, nope. It’s a rare occurrence that I’m not carrying. This just happened to be one of those times. And in a way, carrying a gun makes me a better, more attentive driver (a little paranoia about getting stopped with a gun – even when you’re licensed – can be a good thing). But regardless of my carry status, if and when I’m pulled over again, you can bet that I’ll be as polite as I can be. It’s safer for everybody.

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  1. Good post and a textbook example of how a traffic stop should go down, in my opinion. It’s been about 12 years for me, but I act the same as you.

    A professional and courteous driver and officer a) makes things easier for everyone, b) potentially saves the driver some money and headache, and c) treating others with respect (both sides) is just the right thing to do.

    I hope he contacts you, I look forward to the follow-up post.

  2. Brad

    I had the same situation a month ago in suburban St Louis. Sunday morning, 8:30 am and I was late for church (sunday school). I pulled out of my subdivision onto a local road and was just past the first traffic light when I saw the officer coming at me in her car with her hand out signaling me to stop. I slowed, put on my flashers, and turned into the next subdivision (to get off the road). When I stopped, window was down, engine off, hands on the wheel. She came up behind me with lights on and asked for my license and registration. I then said, “Officer, I will comply, but I want to take this opportunity to inform you I have a loaded 9mm on my left hip. How would you like me to proceed?”

    She asked if I had a permit (I did) and to get my registration. She asked if I could get to my wallet with my right hand and I told her no since it was in left pocket. I then slowly opened by suit jacket (I was going to church) and she saw the gun. She unsnapped her holster and told me to slowly get the wallet. I handed her my license and permit (in Missouri, your CCW status comes up if they run your DL, but to be safe . . . ). She then came back with a written warning for me. Since I had told her I was carrying (we are not required to disclose, but again, they know once they run your DL), and I cooperated, she was giving me a warning and please slow down.

    I credit my CCW teacher (Sgt. Paul Beshear at Ultimate Defense in St. Peters). He emphasized repeatedly that the cops just want to go home to their families. Despite what the law says about disclosure, how does it harm to inform them you are armed? If anything, his view was if I have to disarm you, it is more work and potential for a ND or other problem. Moreover, his view was our permit was a “good conduct award” that would tell an officer you were a good guy who was already subjected to a background check. So why not brag about that?

  3. My best friend growing up was a NYC cop for a number of years and learned a good reply for the ‘quota’ snark:

    Driver: What’s the matter…haven’t you made your ticket quota yet?
    Friend: Oh we don’t have quotas any more sir; now they let us write as many as we want to.

    • I see that your cop friend doesnt know the definition of the word quota. If thats the best NY’s finest could come up with, I would hate to see the rejected ideas.

  4. If you are stopped by the raging alcoholic cop in a bad marriage who is taking caffeine pills to stay awake that doesn’t like the idea of CHL holders carrying like he does then you will probably have a different experience. See the Canton OH police stop video for reference.

  5. A close friend of mine was an officer of the county court. In the 15 years since he gave me this advice, I’ve been pulled over four times and not been not ticketed.

    Pull over. Turn wheel hard so tires point at curb. Shut off motor Turn on interior light. Window down with both hands outside palms up. Wait to get wallet or insurance from glovebox.

    All these things reduce risk to officer as they approach. On each occassion in four different states the officers asked why I’d taken this step providing opp to explain LEO friendship and empathize with danger of approaching car during traffic stop. Even though two of my infractions were egregious, extending these courtesies and using extreme politeness kept my days from getting worse. I reckon these steps would help diffuse the tension before disclosing your CCW permit.

    • Absolutely none of those things “reduce risk to officer as they approach”. Anyone who would do harm to an officer could easily do all those things, and then just shoot officer in the face as shoot as he gets to the drivers side window. It does however demonstrate to the officer that you are willing to go far out of your way to submit to their irrational fears.

      • Empty hands out a car window mean unless you’re Zaphod Beeblebrox, you’re unarmed.

        Turning the wheels into the curb and shutting off the engine means you aren’t going to try to flee.

        Turning on the interior light means you are willing to assist the officer in determining if there is anyone else in the car.

        Their fears are not irrational. Of the things patrol officers do, domestic disturbance calls and traffic stops are the most dangerous. If they’ve run your plate they know the owner of the car is a CHL licensee. If the driver of the car doesn’t happen to be the CHL owner, there’s a possibility the CHL owner is face down in a ditch somewhere and the (now-felonious) driver of the (stolen) car is armed (with the CHL-guy’s handgun).

        Whether you are carrying or not, making their job easier is more likely to make your day easier. They interpret this as courtesy.

        I’ve been pulled over while carrying on several occasions. I have never had a police officer ask to see the firearm, much less confiscate it. I have never seen a hand on a holstered weapon, much less anyone unsnap any kind of retention device. Mostly they just want to verify that I’m who the computer says I am, and they know that if I’m a CHL carrier I am no threat to them.

        • Who the hell is going to preemptively hold their hands out the window when a cop walks up. How is that in any way reasonable.

          Turning the wheels and killing the engine does nothing. It takes what, like a second a half to start the car and get the wheels pointed forward. If they were going to flee, chances are they would have, if they pull over that in itself demonstrates they are not trying to flee.

          If the cop cant determine if someone else is in the car without the interior light being on, then why do they even have the job? If your that blind, how can you possibly be qualified to use a firearm in a low light situation? It does however make it easier for them to violate your right to privacy by conducting a search of items in plain view.

          Traffic stops and domestics arent dangerous unless the officer wants them to be. Who cares if you have a CHL. There is also the possibility that the driver of the car is jesus christ, doesnt mean its likely, just as your car jacker on a murder spree scenario isnt.

          “Mostly they just want to verify that I’m who the computer says I am, and they know that if I’m a CHL carrier I am no threat to them.”
          What gives them the right to verify who you are, and what purpose does it serve? Is this soviet era Russia where we must present papers upon demand else be sent to the gulags? If your confortable with having your privacy violated than thats fine, its just that most other people arent.

        • What gives them the right?

          I was speeding/didn’t stop at a stop sign/didn’t stop at a red light/didn’t have a current inspection sticker/whatever I did that was beyond the scope of the law. THEY didn’t dictate the terms of engagement here, I did, by doing something that a responsible person shouldn’t do. It may have been out of carelessness or for a perfectly legitimate reason (e.g., pregnant wife in the back seat with a crowning baby), but for whatever reason I was observed to step beyond the bounds of the law, law established by constitutional methods. If you don’t like the law then change the law, but until then you are responsible for upholding the law.

          I don’t believe they have the right to stop me for driving. I think they have the right to stop someone pounding down the road at 95mph in a 70mph zone, though, and that includes me if I’m foolish enough to do that. They can verify my identity because MY actions put me in that situation.

          Do you think the police should be able to demand the full price of a ticket in cash at the side of your car in order to maintain anonymity? That would be a little suspicious to me, so I prefer a system where they verify my identity and then allow me to either pay the fine later or dispute the ticket in court.

          Again, Matt — I’m not comfortable with having my privacy violated, but then again if I get pulled over for traffic violation then I have acted in such a fashion as to place my privacy at risk. The responsibility is MINE, you seem rather worked up about your rights but an aspect of maturity is the understanding that rights and responsibilities coexist and are interdependent. You get pretty riled up about the former but I don’t hear much from you about the latter.

        • I think you’re missing the point that traffic laws are established to generate revenue and don’t actually make/keep the roadways safe. Additionally, their violations usually do not result in people getting hurt or things getting broken. We should not punish people for having done nothing that’s actually evil.

        • I agree, most of the traffic laws are stupid. Red light cameras probably cause more unsafe behavior than they prevent, etc.

          Nevertheless, irrelevant. It’s the law. If you don’t like it then by all means change it, but until then it is a source of government revenue that you can opt out of pretty easily. We don’t get to pick some subset of the laws we obey and those we don’t. We can be responsible and obey them, or we can take responsibility for breaking them, but that’s about all the choice we have.

        • If/when the law requires you to surrender your firearms, please let me know if you feel the same way about picking and choosing which laws to follow. My point is that, regardless of the law, if you haven’t done anything that is actually evil, you should not be punished. When laws, unjustly and without authority, infringe upon our freedom, then we are not obligated to follow them. And, to take it a step further, our obligation is to resist unjust laws and to disobey them as much as possible.

        • +100

          My girlfriend got pulled over back on Labor Day and she pointed out to the cop that the speed limit change wasn’t posted and he said that he would let her go, but since he hit the lights the camera had started and Labor Day is one of their highest revenue weekends, so he’d get in trouble if he didn’t give her a ticket.

  6. I completely agree that being polite will go a long way toward ending a dangerous situation quickly. A traffic stop is an adversarial confrontation with an armed gang member who is trying to rob you; how you act will determine whether or not he decides to follow-up with killing you too.

    Although, I’m wondering if anyone on this site would similarly demur to an armed gang member who was not sanctioned by the state? Really the only difference is the type of “bling” they wear.

    • Hi Henry,
      As I have stated on other posts I live my live in condition yellow.
      As such I try to be aware of my surroundings in the hope that I will be able to spot trouble and avoid it. I also try to be prepared if I am unable to avoid trouble.

      I carry a gun for last resort use, in the unlikely event of a life threatening confrontation.

      I carry a wallet with $50.00 emergency gas money in it and nothing else. I travel extensively and the possibility of finding myself low on gas and unable to use my cards due to malfunctioning equipment is a concern. Living in condition yellow is not just about dealing with bad guys.

      I also carry a double ID holder with my DL on one side and my CHL on the other. In my state, when stopped by an officer, you must show your CHL if you are carrying. Behind my DL and CHL I have my bank cards and SSC. I carry this in a back pocket where it is not visible nor does it print.

      My plan in the event of a robbery is to toss my wallet on the ground at the punks feet while I slowly back up, assuring him that he will have no trouble from me and hoping that he will consider $50.00 a good score. If he wants my watch, he can have that too. We will have to discuss the wedding ring, but if he insist he will get it. I feel sure my wife would rather have a live husband minus a ring than a corps wearing one.
      Most of the time anyway.
      Then at the first oppertunity I will run like hell while dialing 911.

      Now I know that I could possibly kill this scumbag and put him out of my misery when he looks at the wallet or bends to pick it up.
      But unless I get the feeling he means me harm I will let the police handle it.
      It has been many years since I was Batman. Or even Robin.

      • Ron, I appreciate your candor and concur with your strategy. Property is not worth your life. My follow up would be… do you recognize a traffic stop by an armed policeman as the same situation as a robbery by an armed private enterprise criminal who is intrested in your wares and not necessarily your life? If so, then you’re awake to the problem.

  7. I was pulled over for disobeying a sign about a month after I picked up my CHP. I handed my license and permit to the officer at the same time, while telling him that I was not carrying. He was very polite about it, and did not even ask me to get out of the car to ensure I was not carrying.

  8. The pleasantness of such encounters depend to a very great degree on where you’re located. You’re likely to have a much different attitude from a cop in Texas or Florida than say, Ohio or Minnesota, CCW or no.

    The CCW is just a handy “not a bad guy” indicator for any cop who should be one, hence the typical leniency when involved in traffic nonsense.

    The best defense is to not get pulled over in the first place, which involves maintaining a significant degree of situational awareness while driving– something everyone should be doing anyway, but perhaps 1% of drivers actually do. Doesn’t matter if you like to drive like a bat out of hell, if you know where they are (or might be), the odds are in your favor.

  9. My personal favorite was always
    “Know why I pulled you over {tonight|today}?
    “Because you haven’t got anything resembling real policework to keep you busy?”

    I always got the ticket.

  10. #1 – why the pat-down? So what if you’re carrying? You have a license.
    #2 – when did everyone start carrying a TACTICAL knife? I call bullshit. I carry a “pocket knife”. I have quite a few. Some lock open, some don’t. Some have serrated blades, some don’t. What the f#@! makes it tactical? Just say you have a pocket knife and leave it at that.
    #3 – cops have a “dirty, thankless job”. It’s called traffic enforcement and revenue collection. Let’s not try to make it romantic. You got a ticket for rolling through a stop sign, late at night, in a residential area, with probably little to no traffic. No one was harmed, no one was threatened, there were no “close calls”, no dangerous vehicle maneuvers. You paid a randomly assigned tax for the crime of literally not coming to a complete stop.
    #4 – I do agree with being polite, only because generally the cop has a gun and you don’t. More importantly, he has the power of the state and you have to pay for a lawyer in order to have any rights.
    #5 – I’m still working on my first cup of joe, so I might be a little grouchy.

    • 1 – Because brad could have been carrying a 45 and the cop had a 40.
      2 – Because he paid several hundred dollars to get the model with “Tactical” laser etched on the blade.
      3 – You are right, if you read the article, it really sounds like Brad is thanking the officer for acting professionally, I have no idea why he said it was a thankless job when he thanked the officer.
      4 – Yup
      5 – Your not the only one who gets this reaction from submissive police apologists.

    • 1. Officers are trained to assume everyone is out to harm them. I’m not saying it’s right, just that it is what it is.
      2. Because “Tactical” anything sells more products.
      3. I agree.
      4. Sad but true.
      5. I’m usually grouchy after the caffeine kicks in.

    • I don’t mind paying the fine, I do mind that it negatively affects my insurance rate, particularly for a chicken-shit violation. I recently was ticketed for speeding while passing on a two lane road, cop got me with mobile radar coming at me just after I pulled back into the right lane. The judge said you shouldn’t exceed the speed limit when passing. I didn’t say anything, but I thought, what planet do you live on? The judge also mumbled something about he couldn’t let everybody go…I thought it was me and the law, not me as a class or something. Oh well.

    • Tactical probably means it’s assisted opening so it does give different impression. If he said pocket knife, I’d assume it’s a small knife that needs to be opened using two hands.

  11. Heinlein’s Law applies. Generalized: As the ability to inflict harm increases, increased politeness is the adaptive response.

    Even in settings without express violence, the ability to inflict serious difficulty causes lawyers, as a rule, to adopt a professional politeness that often belies a grave personal dislike. The more and more oppositional the situation becomes, the more and more formal and polite I become — until the figurative blow that lies between us must finally be struck.

    Or as Churchill once said: “When you have to kill a man it costs nothing to be polite.”

  12. The whole get out of the vehicle so cop can perform a “pat down” thing seems a bit strange to me. I would not have consented to that. A CCP does not give the officer the automatic right to perform a search. Laws in other jurisdictions may vary, but I think Oregon is pretty typical insomuch that it states:

    810.410 Arrest and citation.
    (3) A police officer:
    * * * * *
    (b) May stop and detain a person for a traffic violation for the purposes of investigation reasonably related to the traffic violation, identification and issuance of citation.
    (c) May make an inquiry into circumstances arising during the course of a detention and investigation under paragraph (b) of this subsection that give rise to a reasonable suspicion of criminal activity.
    (d) May make an inquiry to ensure the safety of the officer, the person stopped or other persons present, including an inquiry regarding the presence of weapons.
    (e) May request consent to search in relation to the circumstances referred to in paragraph (c) of this subsection or to search for items of evidence otherwise subject to search or seizure under ORS 133.535.

    Note that subsection “e” cross-references to subsection “c” and not to subsection “d.”

    I had a couple of Sherriff deputies pull me over for speeding once (63 in a 55). They ask me if I would consent to a search of my car. (I guess they did not like my Grateful Dead tie-dye t-shirt). I told them that I had not given them any reasonable suspicion that I had committed a crime. One of the officers responded: “Yeah, I know. that is why I asked for your consent.” I said, “Son, how long have you been in law enforcement? Do me a favor, get your boss and the line and ask him to read you Article I, section 9, of the Oregon Constitution and ORS 810.400.” [ Art I, Sec. 9 reads: “No law shall violate the right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable search, or seizure.”] And when you come back, have a good apology ready for me. He said “What are you, a lawyer?” Ding Ding Ding!!! I love it when the light finally turns on. “Yes, Son, I’m a lawyer.”

    Needless to say, I didn’t get a speeding ticket that day.

  13. “If I were a cop, and I was confronted with someone who looked as if they were being evasive about a permit or a gun, I would automatically assume the worst and act accordingly. That’s human nature.”
    So do we get to automatically assume the worst if a cop approaches us in a aggressive and threatening manner? How about a fellow civilian, if someone is walking towards me quickly down town, can I brandish a firearm to scare them off?

    “But again, I’m sure his reactions would have been different had I been surly, uncooperative, or sarcastic.”
    Its good to see that the police in your area actively crack down on dissent.

    “My position from the start is that policemen have a dirty, thankless job. They aren’t paid nearly enough to put their lives in danger.”
    They dont put their lives in danger. Stop repeating this lie, its total bullshit. They at worst go to a shitty part of town for 8 hours in a day, heavily armed, and well supported, with official legal immunity for their actions. What about the people who get to live in that neighborhood for 24 hours a day, have been disarmed by the police, are for the most part completely unsupported, with no immunity from the law.
    At least 90% of their job is writing tickets or responding to domestics. It isnt hard or dirty, especially when you compare the pay and benefits to a dedicated meter maid or social worker or security guard.

    This article strongly gives me the impression that Mr. Kozak has a slave mentality, from remarks like “But regardless of my carry status, if and when I’m pulled over again, you can bet that I’ll be as polite as I can be. It’s safer for everybody.” to that he is thankful and gracious to the officer because he was not threatened with deadly force, and was so nice as rob him once, instead of twice. It should be expected that police act in a lawful and professional manner, not an exception that is worthy of a multi-page blog article.

    • This, on all points. Officers for the most part do not face life threatening situations nearly as often as we are lead to believe. The job is thankless because they are often cold, aggressive, and non-empathetic toward anyone not in a similar uniform. More often than not, the victims of crimes are assumed to be the guilty party until they can prove otherwise *read B&E victims*. Traffic stops are opportunistic at best when targets are chosen.Most officers look down on CCW citizens for reasons I can only call fearful. When I went into my local sherrif’s office to get fingerprinted for my CWP, the first thing said to me was “Why do you need to carry a gun?” I responded badly with “Because I can.”. I should have rattled off my usual “To protect my home, loved ones, and self.”, but the contempt in the deputy’s voice and look provoked my negative/sarcastic response.Don’t get me wrong, I have met many great officers that conduct themselves in a cool, professional manner. Unfortunately, these LEOs are few and far between.

      If you read Brad’s bio, you will see that he is fairly new to the CCW community. In a high stress situation, he will likely fall back on his pre-firearm state of mind.

      • The job is thankless because they are often cold, aggressive, and non-empathetic toward anyone not in a similar uniform.

        You really think so?

        Think about it: if your job does not involve working with the public, then it’s a pretty safe bet that the people you work around are at the very least:

        1) Sober; and
        2) Gainfully employed.

        If you work in a professional environment they’ll probably even be at least minimally educated. Now any LEOs may feel free to correct me on this, but it seems like for cops working with the public the best they can hope for is to be dealing with otherwise decent people during their less-than-shining moments. Other than that, there are the drunks, the junkies, the habitual criminal lowlifes, the damaged victims they leave behind, fatal accident scenes, suicides… you get the picture.

        • There are tons of other jobs that get to deal with those portions of society as well. What about health care workers, do junkies not go to the ER? What about restaurant employees, do they not get to deal with drunks? What about social workers, do they not get to deal with lowlifes or victims?

          Unless you push paper for a living, most professions get to come in to contact with all aspects of the public, and I personally get to live in a neighborhood surrounded by these types of people. The cops are just being cry babies.

    • Geez, matt, buddy, take a chill pill.

      Many cops do have dirty, thankless jobs. Too many of them spend their time doing the dirty job of raising money for their owners bosses by issuing citations, and they do not deserve any thanks for it. The cops who actually work for a living and do some good for their communities — yes, they’re out there — are stained by the others. Call it guilt by association.

      Brad’s happy that the stop ended uneventfully. What’s wrong with that? Just because Brad’s a nice guy doesn’t make him an Uncle Tom. And just because a guy wears a blue uniform, that doesn’t mean he’s an enemy of the people.

      • “just because a guy wears a blue uniform, that doesn’t mean he’s an enemy of the people.”

        They choose their job. That blue uniform represents the enforcement arm of the state that steals from, murders, kidnaps, threatens, beats, and generally terrorizes sovereign individuals. They deserve nothing but disdain.

        Unfortunately, we must hide our disdain and placate them with smiles and politeness in order to avoid a beating or worse and to avoid the wrath of their gang brothers if we kill them in righteous self-defense.

        • They choose their job.

          Yes, and some of them use their superpowers for good and not for evil. Serpico was a good guy; Harless is a bad guy. They were both cops.

        • What exactly is the “good” they do, and how much of their job is that actually? Often the best they could possibly do is guess at what happened, and take a side. Consider two drunks who get in to a fight, who are they to believe when it comes to assigning fault? And if they assume both parties were responsible, how is jailing both of them “good”? At best it is punishing two people who just punished each other, and punishing society as a whole for the cost of punishing the two drunks. And when they both get out of jail, they will still harbor the same resentment and animosity towards each other, but now thanks to the police and justice system, will have a similar animosity toward the state and the society that subjected them to the horrors of the american prison system. In addition, they will also be worse off due to the criminal record, and more likely to commit crime due to deminished economic prospects. How exactly is that any of that “good”?

          How often will they actually respond to a situation where there could be a general consensus on their actions being “good”, like a cop preventing a little girl from being brutally gang raped? Simply due to sheer numbers, empowering citizens in very limited circumstances with power of arrest, could do far more “good” than the police ever could.

        • If you are asking these questions then don’t ever bother to call them for help. They don’t need to assist you it seems.

        • What help could they possibly provide? At best they could let me come to the station to make a report. You do realized that your on a gun blog full for CCW supporters, right? And even if they do let me file a report, they will find a way to fuck it up, the last time I had file a accident report for a insurance claim, the officer refused to write down the license plate number of the uninsured motorist who hit me, because I didnt remember the make/model of their car (early 90s dark grey 4 door Japanese car).

        • Even cops who use their superpowers for “good”, represent the state and it’s actions which I described. Also, even every “good” cop, at some point, has kidnapped/jailed/fined somone for something that hurt no one nor damaged any property. That is the nature of the laws and the LEO that enforce them.

        • Bingo. The notion that a decent person would choose to be an armed thug for corrupt sociopaths and wannabe tyrants is a joke.

          They hide behind the same “following orders” excuse that earned the Nazi’s a death sentence in Nuremburg. They deserve no different.

  14. My last traffic stop experience came last Monday on Pentagon reservation — 40 in a 25 zone. I wasn’t paying attention. The Pentagon police officer was polite. Didn’t ask me if I was armed (if I was I would have been in big trouble) and checked my driving record and found it clean. He gave me a warning and sent me on my way. I wouldn’t say he was warm friendly but definitely professional.

    I am always polite when I get the rare ticket. Revenue enhancement or not I don’t squawk about it because I am probably guilty. I may ignore posted speed limits or do a rolling stop at a right turn or stop sign but regardless of my feelings about reasonableness of the stop the law is the law so if I get caught no whining from me.

    No police officer that has identified me as a weapons carrier has ever given me a second look or a hard time. There are two reasons for this. I am clean, well dressed and polite. I also have a lot of grey hair and look non-threatening.

    This is for Matt:

    Being polite to even an aggressive and nasty cop is not acting like a slave. It is called mature behavior. You are not going to win the argument with Mr. Officer so man up and show him you are a better person then he is. I can tell you wouldn’t do well in boot camp with a DI screaming obscenities in your face. You would play your stress card and everyone would laugh at you. If your real-time attitude matches your virtual self you are the last person who I would come near if I knew you were armed. However, I am guessing that the real you is a mousey wimp.

    • The Law is the Law! Thou shalt not question the Law! The all-knowing and all-powerful STATE has bestowed upon us the Law for our own good. The STATE knows what is best for us. ALL HAIL THE STATE!

      • Pray tell what laws do you deem fit to obey? Or are do feel that any law is an infringement of your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happyness?

        Note to Bruce Kraftt: Matt and Henry are perfect examples of the libertarian mind set that leads me to the conclusion that the outcome of “Libertarian World” is Somalia and not paradise.

        • It’s actually very simple and how you can tell someone who values freedom (libertarian) from a pompous wannabe tyrant – if you’re not harming someone against their will (because some people DO want to be harmed, such as with a dominatrix), then you didn’t do anything wrong.

          However, people like you have a burning need to force your will upon others, so doing no harm isn’t enough, they must also jump through every idiotic hoop you invent just to show them that they live to serve you.

        • I obey Natural Law, that is don’t steal, lie, murder, rape, commit fraud, destroy property, etc. Do what you promise and don’t harm others or their property. It’s actually pretty simple.
          If ten “laws” were good enough for God, why aren’t they good enough for the state?

        • I’m discussing the issues with people of supposedly like-mind, so that they’ll wake up from their coma of tolerating the injustices of the state, and recognize that it is our moral/ethical duty to resist unjust laws instead of just meekly submitting to continued tyranny while blindly spouting the statist meme of “the law is the law”.

        • Sadly, that won’t happen in large enough numbers to make a difference. The best solution is to simply shoot yourself and free yourself from being used as a slave. Let the bastards burn in their self inflicted hell while those of us who want freedom escape it.

        • “Discussing the issues” means you talk. Talk is cheap. If talk is all you do, then you’re just one of the sheeple.

    • I am guessing that the real you is a mousey wimp.

      I don’t know anything about matt, but I don’t get that vibe. Clearly, he’s passionate, pissed-off, loves going off on a lunatic rant or two (or ten), and I can’t say that I agree with him very often, but he hasn’t earned the sobriquet of “wimp.”

    • Instead of playing my stress card, why couldnt I just egg on the angry cop or DI (whatever that is), I think my comments here have proved that I’m experienced with talking shit to LE/mil. How is that wrong? Is everyone going to laugh at me or the cop/DI who is flipping out? lol, your bad at stereotyping people, if anything shouldnt I be a lanky computer geek hiding out in my moms basement, rather than a mousy wimp? And why exactly would you not come near me if I was both armed and a wimp, clearly a wimp poses no threat, you almost sound like an anti there.

      • You apparently are short on understanding logical constucts. [That not a surprise coming from a truther.] If x then y does not preclude a third alternative z.

        And nobody laughs at the DI and lives to tell about it. You laugh when it’s over and he has made a man out of you. Then it the incident becomes the stuff of legend.

        • “nobody laughs at the DI and lives to tell about it.”

          I’d be willing to bet that not a single U.S. DI has ever murdered a recruit in training for being laughed at. Your military worship is showing.

        • As if it’s a bad thing to regard topics of this gravity with seriousness? But I guess I should have known you weren’t up for an actual discussion when you started slinging insults.

        • Oh Please, cry me a river. It is Matt who called the author names and you seem to be on board with him.

          Sure can dish it out but you can’t take it. It is hard to take someone like you seriously.

        • When did matt call the author names? Because he said his impression is that Brad has a slave mentality? That’s an assessment of his way of thinking, not an attack at his character or manliness.

          Regardless, my comment was meant to illustrate that your exagerration is a symptom of your extremely high regard for the military and their practices. That being the same military that is currently happlily executing the unlawful orders of the war-monger-in-chief in multiple foreign countries. They are the state’s enforcement arm overseas, while police are the domestic enforcer’s for the state.

        • “And nobody laughs at the DI and lives to tell about it.”


          “You laugh when it’s over and he has made a man out of you.”

          Funny that you think being a cowardly bitch who does nothing but blindly do what he’s told is “being a man”. Real men don’t take orders, they follow their own plans and fight off anyone who tries to control them.

    • “No police officer that has identified me as a weapons carrier has ever given me a second look or a hard time. There are two reasons for this. I am clean, well dressed and polite. I also have a lot of grey hair and look non-threatening.”

      It sounds like you dont care what the cops do so long as they don’t do it to you. Had a police officer gave you a hard time because you aren’t from the chosen class and caste, would your opinion be different? It sounds like you accept it as being ok for a cop to give someone a hard time if they arent well dressed or old. And how exactly does one look “threatening”, do you have to dress like a bad guy from a movie with a long flowing leather trench coat and sunglasses?

      • It sounds like you dont care what the cops do so long as they don’t do it to you.

        matt, the essence of self-defense is taking care of one’s self. But that doesn’t imply that the person taking care of himself doesn’t care about anything else. That’s an illogical leap to a desired conclusion.

  15. In my half-dozen or so official encounters with police—none since I began carrying–I’ve always treated them with courtesy and respect, and they never once failed to return the favor.

    In three instances I was let off with warnings. Once for speeding, once for a loud exhaust, and once for having both tail-lights out, at night(!).

    Obtaining my concealed handgun license has led me to be a more careful driver– and vastly more conscientious about automobile maintenance.

    By the way, I’m an African-American male, I’ve lived most of my life in high-crime, inner-city neighborhoods, and all of my encounters have been with white officers.

    No need to be craven, and nobody likes a suck-up, but there’s never any reason to deliberately flunk the attitude test.

  16. A couple of months ago, I got stopped for running a full red light — right in front of a cop. As always, I was carrying, which I kept to myself. Under Massachusetts law, I am not required to disclose such information.

    The cop asked me “do you know why I stopped you?” I said, “yes, to smack me upside the head for being a moron.” He laughed, I laughed, he gave me a written warning and that was that.

    I’ve been fighting with cops in court for my entire life as a lawyer, but c’mon. What’s wrong with giving a cop the benefit of the doubt by being nice and defusing a potentially bad situation? Besides, the police in my town are very supportive of my 2a rights, which tells me all I need to know about the local Chief. Even the local BGs know that our cops aren’t going to plant evidence on them or shove a plunger handle up their asses (unlike the NYPD, where such things are considered normal police procedure).

    I admit that I don’t trust cops, but I’m smart enough to know that not all cops deserve disrespect.

    • Its not about being nice, you can be nice all you want, that isnt going to change anything. There are two types of cops, the good ones and the bad ones, some times good cops will become bad cops, and bad ones good. But no matter what, if your mean to the good cops, they will still follow the law. But even if your nice to the bad cops, if they feel like it, they will be exceptionally mean to you.

      Not that I start off being a dick to cops, but when they tell me things like ‘keep your hands on the steering wheel for both of our saftey’, i’ll go on about how its only for his safety, that I clearly am not a threat, and if I was I could have ran over him in reverse when he walked up to me, and that message could even be considered as him threatening me if with was for “both of our safety”.

      Why give the police the benefit of the doubt? Are members of a well known criminal enterprise going to be given the benefit of the doubt by the police?

      • Matt, after reading your comments here it leads me to question whether you have the maturity to go about armed. I agree that you have the right, but if you can’t keep your mouth shut long enough to get out of a traffic stop without entering a verbal confrontation then it is possible that you don’t have the kind of de-escalation capabilities that will keep you out of gunfights.

        At the very least, your attitude is telegraphing your punch, which is not particularly good tactics.

      • Why give the police the benefit of the doubt?

        Speak softly and carry a big stick, matt. I’m nice until it’s time for me to be not nice, and then the person to whom I’m being not nice becomes very unhappy. This worked very well for me in my law practice, where people paid me just to leave them alone, and that includes the state and their police.

  17. Several years ago, I read a column written by a Washington Post columnist who happened to be black. The column was his advice to his son about dealing with the police. He advised that his son should be like Brad. I thought that it was excellent advice for anyone, regardless of color, sex or ethnicity.

  18. Brad, I’m curious about something: Does Texas law require you to show your CHL even if you aren’t carrying? Why?

    My Denver-county issued permit actually has a list of instructions on the back about what to do if stopped by an officer while carrying. It states that I am to inform the officer that I am carrying and where, and wait for further instructions. What’s interesting is that none of that is in the state law, and from what I’ve heard, permits issued by other counties contain no such language.

    To me it’s a matter of courtesy/common sense/staying alive to inform the officer that I have a weapon if stopped while carrying (which has not happened yet) but if I wasn’t carrying the permit would be irrelevant and I would not hand it to the officer for that reason.

  19. “My position from the start is that policemen have a dirty, thankless job. They aren’t paid nearly enough to put their lives in danger. And they don’t need any lip from me to make things worse. On the other hand, I’ve found that if you show them respect, cooperate, and are as polite as possible (without being overly-solicitous or snarky) it can go a long way towards making a difficult situation less difficult.”I guess I would disagree on a few points. As far as I’m concerned, cops make way too much money and have way too much in benefits and far too good pensions when compared to a combat soldier. Second most of the cops i’ve run into have been polite but at the end of the day they work for me and their job is to serve the citizens, not the other way around. Far too many cops have huge egos and chips on their shoulders.In the past few years the day does not go by without a story about police excess, no-knock SWAT raids on the wrong house that injure, and in far too many cases kill, innocent citizens. The proliferation of militarized police forces all too eager to exercise their “pseudo-military” might has gone way too far. When the cops go back to being cops and not Special Forces wannabes then I’ll rethink my attitude. That’s not likely to happen however, once started the police state never walks back.

  20. I deal with police in a cold and detached manner. They aren’t people to me and I’m not a person to them. From personal experience I’ve found them to be abusive liars. They are heavily reliant on routines. Outside of said routines they aren’t very much.

    I respect the power that comes with a firearm and state license to use it. Hence my avoidance of them. But the boys hiding behind the badge have nothing but my scorn.

  21. A police officer’s actions after conducting an investigatory stop must reasonably relate to the circumstances which justified the stop in the first place. See Terry, 392 U.S. at 20.

    The detention “must be temporary and last no longer than is necessary to effectuate the purpose of the stop.” Florida v. Royer, 460 U.S. 491, 500 (1983).

    If the time, manner or scope of the investigation exceeds the proper parameters,” a constitutionally permissible stop may be transformed into an impermissible stop. State v. Troxell, 78 S.W.3d 866, 871 (Tenn. 2002).

    [However,] [a]n officer may not, simply by observing some item causing a “bulge” in one’s clothing, conduct a general frisk where the nature of the bulge or the surrounding circumstances do not reasonably support the conclusion that criminal activity is afoot or that the person is armed and dangerous. The physical evidence in this case shows that Officer Wooten’s conclusion concerning the likely content of appellant’s pocket prior to the pat down was neither correct nor reasonable. Illinois v. Rodriguez, 497 U.S. 177, 185, 110 S. Ct. 2793, 2799, 111 L. Ed. 2d 148 (1990).

    Second, a law enforcement officer must limit the scope of the investigation to the initial justification for the stop. Any further search of the occupants or the interior of an automobile must be properly justified and accomplished with a valid warrant or pursuant to a valid exception to the warrant requirement. 2State v. Despain, 2003 UT App 266 (improper trailer license plate illumination in violation of §41-6-120(b) U.C.A.); State v. Hansen, 63 P.3d 650 (Utah 2002); State v. Chapman, 921 P.2d 446, 450 (Utah 1996); State v. Lopez, 873 P.2d 1127, 1132 (Utah 1994).

    A frisk is not normally considered to be within the scope of a routine traffic stop. The discovery of evidence that results from a Terry frisk incident to a traffic stop is one of the more common scenarios reviewed by the Utah Appellate Courts. The United States Supreme Court has long held that an officer may perform a protective frisk during a lawful stop when the officer reasonably believes a person is armed and presently dangerous to the officer or others. Terry v. Ohio, 392 U.S. 1, 24 (1968); State v. Carter, 707 P.2d 656, 659 (Utah 1985). See also: §77-7-16 U.C.A. [granting statutory authority to conduct a frisk subject to constitutional requirements, State v. Roybal, 716 P.2d 291, 292 (Utah 1986).]

  22. Why is it that some of the posts here have a problem with the search? Its for officers safety. Just because you have a CHL doesnt mean you arent crazy and having a really shitty day. If you dont have anything to hide and are a resposible law abiding CHL carrier, there shouldnt be a problem with assisting the officer with his/her safety and piece of mind.

    • Because a search without consent, probable cause, articulable resonable suspicion, or a warrant is illegal. A Terry frisk is only authorized if the cop has a reasonable suspicion that the subject is armed and presents a danger himself, the cop, or others.

    • Hi Randomhero,
      The problem I have is it’s not standard / normal procedure.
      Pat downs are usually performed when an officer has become suspicious for some reason.
      I was one of the first in my state to get a CHL and in all these years I have never been asked to step out of my car, much less patted down.
      Admittedly I have rarely been stopped. But when I have, I have always been treated respectfully and never viewed with suspicion or concern.
      It just seems strange to me.
      Also Mr. Kozak volunteered his CHL which he did not have to do. I would think this would make him appear less suspicious, not more so.

      • It is a requirement to produce your CHL in Texas. I’ve taken the mandatory class three times in 12 years and every CHL instructor I have had has advised me to tell the police officer at the first opportunity and to show my CHL.

        I have never been required to step out of the car, show the weapon or be patted down. That part does seem out of the ordinary.

        • Hi Darren,
          It is a requirement if you have a handgun on or about your person.
          If you are not carrying it is not and never has been required.
          Check page 28 of the Texas Concealed Handgun Laws handbook GC 411.205 Requirement To Display License.

    • “If you dont have anything to hide”

      Ah, the typical argument of the anti-*fill in name of right here* Democrat. “If you have nothing to hide, why not let the government install cameras in your home to monitor your activities and make sure you’re not doing anything illegal?”

      • Ahem!

        Republicans are at least as much to blame, if not more so, for the surveillance state. When lefties cried fowl of Bush’s NSA wiretapping, etc., Repubs responded with the “if you have nothing to hide…” argument. Those practices have only gotten worse under Obama (really, I think the president makes little difference in these matters).

        Nanny state liberals and authoritarian conservatives are two sides of the same bad penny.

    • I hate to sound trite but honestly it’s the constitutionality of the matter. Unlawful search and seizure is a violation of the U.S. Constitution. It is unlawful to search a vehicle without probably cause AND a search warrant. Probable cause is a matter of individual interpretation by the officer but being polite to an officer during a traffic stop and showing him your CHL does not justify a frisk or a search.
      Regarding your comment about CHL holders, so far, the records indicate that statistically, CHL holders aren’t crazy, don’t commit crimes, especially with handguns, and they have been trained to understand that if even if you are having a “shitty day”, you’d better keep a civil tongue in your head as Mr. Kozak suggested and did.
      It doesn’t take very many smart asses to make the rest of us CHL holders look bad.

  23. Here in Florida, we’re not required to inform (that we’re carrying). Nor are our CCW licenses linked to our drivers licenses. So, LEOs cannot and will not know if we are CCW licensees.

    I’ve been pulled over while carrying. I don’t mention it. I don’t hand over my CCW license. I stick to the business at hand without any superfluous information that can ONLY (possibly) cause me grief. Revealing that info won’t guarantee me grief, but it won’t HELP me, either. There’s no benefit to bringing it up. I’ve heard WAY too many stories of things going south when the driver revealed he / she was CCW.

    So, I just leave it out. And, so far, so good.

    Now… if ASKED… then I will politely oblige the officer with the relevant information. I’ve never been asked.

    • If asked, I reply with “My lawyer has advised me not to make any statements irrelevant to the situation and I do not consent to any searches of my person or property.”

    • Why voluntarily waive your right to remain silent if asked? If I asked you to waive your right to freedom of speech, would you? I expect the “if you stay silent it will only be worse crowd” will start lining up for that one.

      These “duty to inform” states are absurd. If there was a duty to inform my religious choice it would be lambasted. Sure, officer safety and all that mumbo jumbo. As far as I am concerned, my safety comes before any officer of the law. What justification is there for the safety of an officer of the law to be considered above my own???

      To digress to the fifth amendment issue, anyone curious about this should watch the law school lecture on youtube, search “do not talk to Police.”

      • Because, in Florida, while we’re not required to volunteer (we are CCW), we ARE required to show CCW license if ASKED.

        That said, I would never consent to any search.

      • Steve is exactly right. Who is going to comply with the inform requirement? The law abiding citizen. A criminal bent on harming an officer couldn’t care less. This is just one more requirement that has no benefit to the officer and can get the lawful carrier in trouble if it doesn’t happen just right (see Officer Harless).

  24. I was stopped while carrying several years ago for not coming to a full stop by the Nevada Highway Patrol. I gave the trooper my DL and CCW (as required in NV), and told her I was carrying. She said “You are? Good for you! Next time come to a full stop, OK?” And that was the end of the stop. I love Nevada!

    • Hi Ken
      About three (3) years ago I was stopped for having a tail light out on my way to work. When I gave the officer my DL and CHL he asked what I carried. When I said a Springfield XD .40 he said, “SWEEEET”.

      He then said I could go. I told him I was working a twelve (12) hour shift and would not be able to get my tail light fixed for two (2) days. He said, “I’ll try not to stop you again.”

  25. As in the rest of society, being polite/businesslike/just plain decent goes a long way when dealing with an LEO. In NC, you are required to produce CCW and state if you are armed/weapon in the vehicle. Even in another state where this is not required, I would do so. Just my two cents…….

    • I will abide by the letter of the law. While I have always been exceedingly polite to LEOs during traffic stops – and had very good, professional experience…. I see no reason to unnecessarily introduce an element of perceived danger. Here in Florida, too many CCWs have reported having an LEO’s demeanor take a “180” when they volunteered CCW status. No thanks. Not saying a word about it has worked for me for 15 years. Not that I get pulled over much… I don’t (maybe 3 – 4 times in all those years).

  26. I have a brother who is a cop (retired), had a Sunday School teacher when I was young who was a cop, and have guys in my Sunday School class who are retired cops/state troopers. My goddaughter’s grandfather is a cop. I’ve known other cops as well. I know cops are human as anyone else – and are (or should be) on high alert when making a traffic stop. That’s where so many of them are hurt.

    I have been stopped for a moving violation once in 40+ years of driving. It was night. I pulled over, turned on all the inside lights, got my wallet out, and had my hands up on the steering wheel, fingers spread by the time he got to me. I’m usually polite to everyone – but especially to cops during a traffic stop or in other cases of performance of duties.

    Are there lousy ones? Yep. Known a few of ’em myownself. But at least here in the parts of Texas I move about in I’ve found that common courtesy and trying to make his/her job as uneventful as possible is the best way to handle things.

    And I just got a warning from the officer who stopped me.

  27. We all agree that cops have a difficulty job. They deal with the worst of the worst. They also have a heck of a lot of power. They can pretty much get away with murder, though they’ll have to suffer some paid vacation and extra paperwork. I always address a cop as “sir,” even if he looks like a kid to me. Any time you encounter a cop, you know he can ruin your whole year, if not your whole life. This balance of power is not good.

  28. This thread cracks me up. Normally the people here on TTAG seem to view government with skepticism if not outright mistrust, and seem to take the position that government shouldn’t rule citizens, it should serve them, but on this thread it seems like people are bragging about how submissive they are to cops. This is clearly something I like to call “Blue Nosing”. Think about it, you wouldn’t write a piece about how polite and non-threatening you were to the lady at the DMV, or how compliant and pleasant you were to the building permit guy, but people are acting like it’s cool to lick a cop’s boots. This is part of the problem that leads cops to think that they’re above being videotaped in public. Take a look at yourself, there’s something wrong with you if you take pride in being so servile to a guy just because he got a job with the police.

    • They’re not bragging. They’re not kissing ass. They’re just stating this is how I handle a difficult situation. There are good and bad Policemen. Met a few of both kinds. If he/she is a good cop, do you want to go out of your way to make their day just that much crappier? If he/she is a bad cop do you want to give them a good reason to go all bad cop on your ass and ruin your life?
      I have the greatest respect for the beat policeman. They work with the lowest of the low and have a very difficult job. If I must interact with the Police, I do my best to make their job as easy as possible, because the next guy might not. More often than not, this approach has been to my benefit. I received a polite and professional and timely response.

      • I’m polite and professional… just as I am with ANYone else I deal with in the public. We’re not “blue-nosing.” We’re just not IMpolite nor outwardly derisive based on prejudices against LEO. I see no reason to create an unnecessarily confrontational dialogue just because I got pulled over for a traffic stop. I am very polite (and respectful, military-style). But, of course, I will not let anyone run roughshod over my Constitutional rights. Nor will I volunteer any unnecessary information. This can all be done simultaneously with respect and politeness. Blue-nosing? Not hardly.

    • you wouldn’t write a piece about how polite and non-threatening you were to the lady at the DMV

      Oh yeah? Where are you from, pal? Where I come from, the lady at the DMV with her little pencil can f^ck you up worse than some local cop with his Sig.

    • Actually, here is Texas, where it seems a lot of these posts are coming from, we’re just raised to be polite unless given a reason not to be. And even then depending on who you’re dealing with.
      I agree that people in public service get more than their fair share of abusive treatment, especially from generations younger than ours.
      I don’t know where you’re from but in these parts, rude behavior in public is a good way to get a good ass-whoopin’.

  29. I have a question for those who think the world would be a better, freer place without the police.

    If not the police then who?

    “The People?” “The People” is just another name for the mob. The mob is an unruly beast. You are on top one day and led to scaffold the next. Just ask Robespierre.

    So you want to take “responsibility” for your own safety. That will work fine right up the point where the Crypts or the Aryan Nation or MS-13 shows up to offer you a deal you can’t refuse. So what are going you do then? Band together for self protection? Then you are just another gang. Welcome to the jungle where life is solitary, poor, brutish, nasty and short.

    AlGore’s internet is a fine place where you can meet like minded people who will listen to you fantasies and loony ideas all while someone else keeps the general peace so you don’t have to.

    Cops, good, bad or indifferent are a necessary evil. We all need some institution to keep the chaos down to a minimal level so we can conduct business without having to suit up in the latest fashion of body armor.

    • Q: What primarily attracts criminal gangs? A: Money.
      Q: How do criminal gangs easily make large amounts of money? A: The Black Market
      Q: What creates a black market? A: The Police
      Q: So who is responsible for the gangs being able to make large amounts of money with little work in our society?

      I’ll let you answer that last question.

      Sure there will always be gangs, the point is to keep them as small as possible, and provide them with as few opportunity as possible, rather than create an artificial scarcity they can easily exploit. Also, if you think gangs are bad, look at the pharmaceutical industry.

      And if you were listen to the police, your supposed to suit up in the latest body armor where ever you go in our present society. Your the only one who seems to think that about a state of anarchy. Any gangs who would go after you in anarchy, all ready go after you in our present system.

    • You must be right since, throughoug history, state police forces have never been used as an oppresive and murderous tool against the people. Just ask all those happy citizens under Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, etc. They were just “a necessary evil”.

  30. Neither of you two geniuses answered the question. Do you believe that the state of nature constitutes Utopia where here is no crime?

    Henry, I know what you mean. I was just walking by your residence and I saw the police getting ready to break down your door and hall you off to Gulag. Run now before it’s too late. Did you ever think that if we were the police state of your fantasy that we wouldn’t be having this conversation.

    • No, I don’t think it would be utopia without police. I think it would be just about like it is now, except more folks who don’t like guns would end up carrying. I carry a gun because I know the police cannot always be there when you need them and I take responsibility for my own safety and that of my family. I suspect that is also why you carry. How does that change if there aren’t police?

      If you’re worried about gangs, why aren’t you worried about the police? They are the largest and most well-equipped gang there is, and they have official sanctioned immunity. Just because they haven’t been used extensively as an oppressive tool of the state yet, doesn’t mean it can’t/won’t happen. History tells us diffently and anyone who is awake can see that the abuses are becoming more and more common place.

  31. Interesting reading.

    I come down on the side of not arguing with the cop. Won’t win, and it can only get worse. Besides, I only argue with people I know, and know how far I can push.

    In end, just what is the deal with having to inform? [That one is carrying.] Is this some carryover from the early days of legal CCW? Some states don’t require, and seemingly have no issue. In the states that do require disclosure–just what has it done? Has the officer then caught someone who isn’t allowed to carry? Does the stop proceed any faster, thereby allowing the officer to go back to patrol duties? Doesn’t the fact that other states don’t require this disclosure prove that it’s simply not required?

    On a related note: has any officer ever asked, “Do you have anything illegal in your possession”–and actually caught someone who admitted to that?


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