When You Realize There Is No Compromise On Gun Rights in This Country

gun control rights argument feelings 2A

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Yesterday’s New York Times ran an op-ed by Gregory Gibson, a man whose son was murdered by a psychotic fellow student at Bard College at Simon’s Rock in Massachusetts in 1992. As a result, and as many family members do after such a tragedy, he became a gun control (he’d say “gun safety”) advocate.

His long, thoughtful piece is titled, A Gun Killed My Son. So Why Do I Want to Own One? That obtuse headline was, of course, assigned by a NYT editor and is as typical as you’d expect from the determinedly anti-gun Gray Lady.

We’d suspect that Gibson himself might even object to that header because, of course, it wasn’t a gun that murdered his son that day in December of ’92. The SKS rifle that was used didn’t pull its own trigger. It was fired by an 18-year-old mentally disturbed Taiwanese-American student who’s now serving two life sentences.

Title aside, though, Gibson’s op-ed recounts the realization he came to that one of the frequent criticism of gun control advocates by those on the pro-gun side was correct — so-called gun safety advocates (you may know them as gun-grabbers) have no credibility in the debate because they know nothing about guns or the people who own and use them.

The article recounts Gibson’s path to gun ownership and enlightenment in the ways of America’s gun owners. But maybe the most important understanding he came to was this:

I’d been told repeatedly by gun owners — often from the back of whatever crowd I was addressing — that my arguments for gun control had little credibility because I knew nothing about guns or gun culture. Eventually I came to see some truth in that assertion. If there was a gun culture of Second Amendment zealots, there was also an opposing gun-control culture made up of people who knew little about guns except that guns were bad. People, in other words, like me.

Received wisdom had it that the two sides in the gun control “debate” would eventually hammer out a consensus resulting in “sensible” gun legislation that would “respect the Second Amendment” while making it harder for criminals and would-be mass murderers to get guns. But now it seemed that the implied dialectic was a sham, and that in fact the two sides were locked in a sterile opposition from which no consensus would ever emerge. America was in the midst of a culture war, not a debate. We were muddling our bloody way toward some new identity as a people, or perhaps our dissolution as a people, and no survivor’s story would change that. For the first time since Galen’s death, I saw the situation in a different light.

You can read the whole thing if you have time. Gibson navigated the may-issue hurdles of gun ownership in the Bay State. He came to enjoy owning and shooting handguns. He’s a fan of his SIG P320.

He’s convinced allowing teachers to arm themselves is a really bad idea. And his inner city gun control advocacy has led him to conclude that “focusing on legislation as a means of reducing gun deaths felt to me like a project for white people.”

As Gibson himself concluded, “when it came to actual people and realistic approaches to the problem of gun violence, black (anti-gun) and white (pro-gun) were still worlds apart.”

In short, he’s going to keep working for “gun safety,” but he has a new approach now. He’s concluded that the only way to save lives is through a blend of education, cultural change (whatever that means) and, of course, legislation.

March for our lives protest

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But Gibson has probably hit on a central truth in the gun rights debate in this country — the fact that there is no middle ground to be found between the two sides. Whether it’s that mythical “national conversation” about guns or demonstrations featuring civilian disarmament advocates on one of the street and Second Amendment supporters on the other, no compromise is really possible.

How do you compromise with someone who wants to eliminate one of your civil rights? How do you come to a meeting of minds and forge a high-minded consensus with someone who threatens to wage war to achieve his gun control and confiscation plans?

If Gibson’s turgid op-ed is valuable beyond the revelation that, “Hey, guns really aren’t so bad after all,” it’s for his reluctant grasp of the fact that, on some questions, there is no compromise to be reached. Some issues truly are black and white.

We either have the right to keep and bear arms or we don’t. The Second Amendment either means what it says or it doesn’t. The courts either follow they law or they ignore it.

Once that essential truth dawns on more people on both sides of the question, maybe then we can finally have that honest conversation about guns.

comments

  1. avatar Pg2 says:

    How do you compromise with gun owners and alleged supporters of individual rights who also support total government/industry control over your personal health care?

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      another attempt to divert the conversation?…..

      1. avatar Pg2 says:

        Nope. A blatant hypocrisy I’ve been pointing out here for years .

        1. avatar Anonymous says:

          What are you even talking about?

          Gun owners that support single payer?

          Nobody knows what you’re talking about.

      2. avatar barnbwt says:

        Ya think? The guy is relentless, just as bad as the tools that bring up abortion every six seconds.

        1. avatar Micah says:

          Was PG2 not talking about abortion? If not, then my mistake… my reply probably doesn’t make a lot of sense.

        2. avatar No one of consequence says:

          Micah: if memory serves, vaccination.

        3. avatar Anonymous says:

          Who knows what he is talking about. He didn’t specify. He just bombed the first post with no details.

    2. avatar Rad Man says:

      Gun owners have been forced to “compromise” since 1934. We’re about done.

      1. avatar Someone says:

        This gun owner is not only done compromising his unalienable human rights, he wants them back. All of them.

        How about some sensible, common sense compromise on 13th amendment rights? I mean, no right is absolute, right? Nobody wants to enslave you, but then again, what do you need four weekends a month for? Most murders and other violent crimes happens over the weekend. We need some sensible legislation to make sure that people are kept busy at least one weekend out of four (for starters), working for me. For the children! My children that is…

        Come on, grabbers, don’t you want to compromise?

    3. avatar Ark says:

      Being liberated from ruinous, absurd medical bills is MORE freedom for me, not less. a

      1. avatar GluteusMaximus says:

        Maybe get proper insurance and navigate this life like the rest of us. You can do it, I’m sure

        1. avatar strych9 says:

          Depends on how you define “ruinous” and “proper insurance”.

          End up in the hospital under the wrong circumstances (which you won’t really get a choice about if you’re fucked up enough to need the hospital that badly) and that few days can result in bills totaling ~$50,000 after ACA compliant “gold” tier insurance.

          So, personally I wouldn’t call anything you can legally buy at this point on the private market, nor anything that’s “ACA compliant” offered by an employer (since they’re generally pretty much the same) “proper”.

          I would however note that “ruinous” is a relative term. Yeah, bigass bills like that suck but the alternative would be that you don’t care because you’re dead which I would say is definitely “ruinous”.

        2. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

          “I would however note that “ruinous” is a relative term. Yeah, bigass bills like that (50 thousand out-of-pocket, in Strych’s case) suck but the alternative would be that you don’t care because you’re dead which I would say is definitely “ruinous”.

          50 thou for someone about 30 still able to work is a serious fiscal hit, but can be dealt with. Someone age 60 and just treading water financially, that’s debilitating. The ‘ACA’ is a shit sandwich for the working poor. If they get ill enough to need constant expensive care and cannot work, it is totally useless, for them. They cannot afford the ‘premiums’ and out-of-pocket deductibles (the 50 thou you got burned with), and that can be ruinous for them. The ‘ACA’ doesn’t address that.

          Obama’s attempt to ‘fix healthcare’ helped some folks, and royally shafted others. There is no ‘answer’ that’s gonna please everybody…

      2. avatar Klaus Von Schmitto says:

        My bill from the mild stroke I had in December was $88K for the 3 day stay. After my private insurance (Blue Cross) I was out about 1300 bucks. That’s not ruinous. That’s life.

        1. avatar Anonymous says:

          Did they do brain surgery? What on earth did they do in those 3 days to merit 88k??? Did you request an itemized bill? Did you check it?

          I had a family member in the hospital for a week, and they had the most ridiculous items on the bill. There was “speech therapy” on the bill. But my family member that never left the hospital said that a doctor came in, asked the year, his name, the current president, and then left and did this once each day, and charged $100 for each 20 seconds of daily questioning. The entire bill was like this. Inflated services to the tune of about 50k.

          So socialized medicine isn’t he problem. The problem is the lying hospitals. Their total lack of transparency, and their unique ability (unlike any other industry) where they can send you a bill after the fact with zero details at all. And part of this is the regulations already put upon them, and massive overhead for administration that they all have in dealing with customers and insurance.

        2. avatar Someone says:

          Anon, socialized medicine is a problem. Anything socialized becomes a problem. Under socialized system the transparency will get much worse and administration will multiply. So will regulations and inefficiencies. Services become scarce and available only to well connected and rich.
          Been there, seen it.

      3. avatar Someone says:

        I see – you conflate not having to pay your bills with freedom.
        Uhuh, and what other personal services would you like to get without paying for them? Education? Housing? Masseuse? Housekeeping?
        Sure, the other suckers, who don’t even use those services, can pay to give you a free ride!

    4. avatar Thixotropic says:

      Stupid and irrelevant.

      How about keep your stupidity to yourself.

    5. avatar Micah says:

      There are those of us that don’t think killing unborn babies counts as healthcare, we see it as murder. So, yeah, we would like government intervention in it.

      Also, there is no hypocrisy in supporting gun rights and also opposing abortion. It’s a silly comparison. We oppose abortion, not bans on forceps and suction tubes and clippers and whatever other tools abortionists use. Because that would be stupid. Just like gun control.

      1. avatar barnbwt says:

        He’s an anti-vaxxer, not anti-abortion. I know it’s hard to tell your insufferable side-tracks apart some times.

        “How’s the weather?”
        “Great, but it’d be nicer without abortion!”

        “Here is your bill, it comes to three dollars and would you like to talk about vaccines & autism?”

        1. avatar Micah says:

          Ha! yes, I gathered that, my mistake.

        2. avatar Pg2 says:

          Lol, good one.

      2. avatar surlycmd says:

        What you believe is what YOU believe. Using the power of the State to force that belief unto others is problematic under the best of circumstances.

    6. avatar possum, destroyer of arachnids says:

      Humans should have the same medical care as a possum. We keep getting stronger, humans keep getting weaker. Top of the food chain my scaly tail.

      1. avatar barnbwt says:

        It’s because our cities have even more parasites than you critters, these days.

      2. by definition, prae possum IS the top of the food chain… just saying.

    7. avatar No one of consequence says:

      I’d prefer to deal with issues one at a time and as separated functions.

      For the medical stuff, please don’t use a gun venue; in fact TheTruthAboutObamaCare.com seems to be available if you care enough to go out of pocket to preach your beliefs.

      1. avatar Hannibal says:

        I’m sure that’s ideal but it’s also impossible in our current system of government where you can vote for party A or party B and you’re fucked if you happen to be pro-gun, pro-choice, anti-taxes, etc.

    8. avatar LifeSavor says:

      It took years, but I moved from knee-jerk liberalism to staunch 2nd amendment defender and constitutionalist because of severe damage to my daughter from a medical treatment. We flew all over North America to consult with researchers and specialists. We met hundreds of families like ours. If you have not been down this path, it is difficult to understand why we oppose government mandated, one-size-fits-all health care; mandates that over-ride parental discretion. We are not stupid. We have dedicated our lives and treasure to recovery for our children. Listen to the man who understood his anti-gun credibility was impaired because he knew nothing about guns.

      When I realized our legislators and governments agencies were lying to us; when I realized that corporate interests (Pharma) were wining laws that erode our constitutional freedoms, I decided our best chance was to rally our constitution and defend it.

      The people who want our guns want unlimited abortion; they want open borders; they also want government to make the medical decisions for your family. If you have not experienced that, yet, then God has smiled upon you. But, please, do not write-off those of us who have. We are all on the same side: liberty.

      Lastly, I apologize for mucking up this truely enjoyable gun blog with other issues. It is all meant in defense of the freedoms assured in the document that makes this country the place so many people want to come to.

    9. avatar Anonymous says:

      You ruined the comments sections for this article.

      1. avatar HellBilly says:

        That was his mission.

    10. avatar HellBilly says:

      I don’t ever see anyone here advocating socialized healthcare. Except the occasional liberal troll.

    11. avatar Robert Messmer says:

      Your “personal health care” is YOU seeing to it that you follow the proper diet, get enough of the right exercise and proper sleep. Don’t conflate it with “medical care” which is what others do to and for you. How can we have a conversation with those who deliberately or ignorantly distort the language?

    12. avatar Ansel Hazen says:

      @Pg2 You sure aren’t talking about me.

  2. avatar B.D. says:

    So… He’s an idiot, and a racist. K.

    Cool story.

  3. avatar frank speak says:

    …It would seem some are slower to wake up to this than others…

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      ….My right to be “safe” supersedes your right to own a gun….that’s what they’re pushing these days…and it does not lend itself to serious debate…

      1. avatar Pg2 says:

        LMFAO….You just used the mandatory vaccine argument, word for word.

        1. avatar barnbwt says:

          Well, except that you anti-vaxxers can’t argue that shots are less effective than gun control 😉

        2. avatar Pg2 says:

          Less effective at what? The angry posts here prove my point…..gun owners falling for the same false collectivist vaccine narrative but are oh-so surprised and self righteous when the public falls for the same false collectivist gun control narrative. Its pretty amusing watching gun owners, allgeded gun wonders anyway, preaching individual rights and independence from the government when it comes to owning guns, then fall over somethemselves defending full government take over and control of a persons indivual rights with medical/health care. And many here are too stupid to even recognize they’re Repeating the same freedom stealing sounds bites, almost word for word, when it comes to the vaccine issue. Good luck keeping your firearms.

        3. avatar Southern Cross says:

          But your rants are sort of amusing and so far off topic they are generally ignored. You are not convincing anyone or converting anyone to your cause.

        4. avatar CarlosT says:

          The letters “Pg2” automatically translate in my brain now to “time to start scrolling”.

        5. avatar Anonymous says:

          PG2,

          The comparable analogy is that vaccines arm you – they don’t disarm you.

          The government forcing everyone to get a vaccines is closer to the government forcing everyone to own guns and ammo rather than gun control.

          How else do you defend against viruses? Vaccines defend against viruses. Keyword “defend.”

          Now that said, I’m not into the government forcing people to do stuff. But gun ownership and keeping and bearing arms does not analogously map over well to defense against viruses.

          1) You can’t see the viruses. They’re all over you. You’re breathing them in right now. Most of them, are from the people around you. Them exhaling, and touching stuff and leaving viruses everywhere.
          2) Your vaccination directly affects those around you, whereas with firearms, I can own a firearm my entire life without affecting anyone at all. It’s possible no one would ever be hurt by my ownership of firearms. You simply can’t say the same for viruses.
          3) Maybe we can have a state for those that don’t want vaccines. That state can be divided up into liberals and conservatives and libertarians, etc. So half of the state can have guns and the other half who doesn’t like guns won’t have them, and the entire state can be riddled with small pox, measles, mumps, polio, etc.

        6. avatar Anonymous says:

          PG2,

          Its pretty amusing watching gun owners, allgeded gun wonders anyway, preaching individual rights and independence from the government…

          In my state the vaccines are subsided with taxes so a person can go down to the health department, get their vaccines and not have to pay. Especially true for children. That said, you don’t have to get the vaccines. Admittedly, the public and private schools around here will not accept your child at the school until the vaccines are administered. But there are good reasons for that, and those reasons are, viruses, which you cannot see, can be expelled by your body all over the place that affect other people, and your lack of a defense against them (vaccines), directly affects other people.

          Your whole analogy with vaccines is wrong.

          You act like people are forcing you to do what you don’t want to do. The reality is, you are forcing other people to get sick who don’t want to get sick. They are the victim not you. You are the perpetrator of their suffering. And the vaccine actively prevents you from making everyone around you a victim of your perpetration. This is the reality of it. This is the reality of it with viruses. The reality of it is – by default – you are a perpetrator (spreader of viruses), the vaccine gives you freedom from your own involuntary perpetration.

          Now you don’t have to get the vaccines. But most institutions (colleges, schools, etc) will not admit you. So you will live an isolated life. And that sounds moral to me. By isolating yourself, you protect those around you from you perpetrating them.

        7. avatar Anonymous says:

          then fall over somethemselves defending full government take over and control of a persons indivual rights with medical/health care.

          NOT medical/health care. Virus control.

          In regards to freedom with guns. The right to keep and bear arms. It is possible for me to own and keep a gun without me ever making victims of those around me.

          In regard to viruses, by default, I am a perpetrator of making other people sick. I do so involuntarily. It is not possible for me to go through life without making victims of those around me sick. They are invisible, and people can have them without even knowing. Vaccines provide me freedom from involuntarily perpetrating sickness on those around me.

          See the difference?
          – Guns can be used to hurt people if I decide to use them that way.
          – Viruses by default are hurting people around me, if I don’t decide to control myself from spreading them.

        8. avatar Anonymous says:

          And many here are too stupid to even recognize they’re Repeating the same freedom stealing sounds bites, almost word for word, when it comes to the vaccine issue. Good luck keeping your firearms.

          They are using the same “freedom stealing sound bites” because guns and vaccinations are not analogous as I have demonstrated above.

        9. avatar HellBilly says:

          Pg2 I bet you’re not even an anti vaxxer. I bet you’re just a liberal troll who tries to monkey up the gun rights movement by making all the online debates look like it’s full of nut jobs.

        10. avatar Dennis Sumner says:

          Now you’re catching on! Pg2 and vlad, probably the the same troll. Pitiful!

        11. avatar pg2 says:

          So much stupid here to respond to all of it. No, I’m not an “anti-vaxxer”. I question the safety of childhood vaccines because safety studies have never been done. And this product is being increasingly forced on unwilling families who want their children to attend school, public and/or private. Its the only pharmaceutical product not safety tested, and its the only pharmaceutical product that is shielded from product liability. What could go wrong? The only safety mechanism in place for these products is the altruism of the pharmaceutical industry. Seems we have a lot of freedom Fudds here, people who care(allegedly) about the 2nd Amendment, but consider all other individual freedoms unnecessary and arbitrary. And how many of you are actually sock puppet accounts who knows…who cares?

  4. avatar Knute(ken) says:

    ” In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit.”
    -Ayn Rand
    Too bad that Fudds can’t read, ain’t it?

  5. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

    Compromise has brought us to the place we find ourselves with but a slice of the whole cake as our natural right as Americans. No Compromise,No discussion,No conversation,No Feelz,No Leftist idea of common sense,which isn’t common nor makes sense,Just NO,Not One More Inch,Ever.
    If the Left doesn’t Feelz that correct,then let’s get it on and over with.

  6. avatar Moltar says:

    Ok so just ask the grabber which Jim Crow laws they’ll allow, and ask how should we defend ourselves in the face of immediate life threatening harm. After they scurry off to yonder library to figure out exactly what Jim Crow laws are if they answer just call the police to that second question, break contact as you will NEVER change their mind. Most of the more “rational” gun control folks I’ve met have actually listened on the point that the third question makes. I’ve had pro gun control friends change their minds after confronting the very uncomfortable answers to those questions.

    Wait this ain’t about civil rights they’ll say.

    Oh but it is you are wanting to strip the rights of a certain group of people, albeit not due to their race, based on their ownership of an inanimate object.

    But you can still defend yourself with fists and knives.

    Ok that may work for one person, if you’re lucky, but what about 2 or 3? What about your grandmother, your daughter, or your wife? Would they stand the same chance in a stand up fight against a physically larger well motivated opponent bent on doing them harm? Could they fight off that burglar, could they stop that rapist, would they escape that murderer? How long should they have to wait before the threat is removed? Should they have to wait for someone else to intervene or for the threat to decide they are done?

    1. There are several terms that appear nowhere in the Constitution, yet if you listened to some people you’d think the Bill of Rights contained nothing else.

      “abortion”
      “civil rights”
      “diversity”
      “tolerance”
      “my feelings”

      I can’t find any of these in the Constitution. Anywhere. Therefore according to the 10th Amendment the Federal government is prohibited from making laws or policies that pertain to any of them.

      There are “judges” who say that they “interpret” the Constitution in other ways. They’re all wrong.

      1. avatar Knute(ken) says:

        Those activist judges “interpreting” the Constitution aren’t just wrong, they are personally profiting from misinterpreting on purpose. And that isn’t just wrong, it’s a felony. Right and wrong bring to mind moral questions. Interpretations are either correct or incorrect. No moral issues there.
        Thus 2+2=5 is not “wrong”, it’s “incorrect”. Math is not a subjective subject that can be argued one way or the other. It is not possible to attempt to argue that 2+2=5 and sound like anything other than the village retard. It’s an objective fact that is either correct or incorrect. Right and wrong need not apply.

        1. avatar Moltar says:

          That’s all because apparently the founding fathers were incapable of writing exactly what they meant and the definitions of words change over time so we need those Godly judges those pillars of society those shining beacons among the unwashed masses to tell us exactly what those words scribbled on the parchment mean on any given day.

          /SARC/

      2. avatar John in Ohio says:

        The power of Judicial Review is not even explicitly granted to the Supreme Court under the Constitution. That was doctrine made up in 1803 through judicial activism in Marbury v. Madison. So, the whole stinking process is unconstitutional right out of the gate.

        http://constitutionality.us/MarburyvMadison.html
        http://constitutionality.us/SupremeCourt.html

  7. avatar Dennis Sumner says:

    We’ve already “compromized” half or more of 2A rights in a lot of states! Libs spell compromise like this, SURRENDER.

  8. avatar jwm says:

    Its civil rights and human rights. The largest violation of civil and human rights currently in this country are gun control laws.

    1. avatar Pg2 says:

      No. Giving the power to the state to control your children is a bigger violation of civil and human rights.

      1. avatar jwm says:

        How do you resist any power grab from the state without guns? Or are you deliberately weaponising your kids with all sorts of diseases which you can then catapault your kids. ala monty python, at the evil statist?

        1. avatar Pg2 says:

          Weaponizing kids by keeping them healthy? There’s no rational answers for irrational questions. And let me ask you a flip question, if and when the government has the legal authority to inject a person with whatever it wants, whenever it wants, what value are your guns or gun rights?

        2. avatar Hannibal says:

          Yes, measles makes children healthy! Here on the flat earth, anyway.

        3. avatar jwm says:

          Let me ask you a question, pg2. I’ve never once seen you post a comment about guns. Using or owning them. Do you actually own a gun? Do you even have kids? Or do you just get some sort of perverse pleasure out of being an obnoxious twit?

          At the moment I can see no difference between you and vlad tepes. Troll is not the proper term for you 2. It’s something much deeper and much more disturbing.

        4. avatar Dennis Sumner says:

          Glad someone brought that up, I picture two liberal arts college grads sitting in Obummer’s mansion’s basement, trolling conservative websites by day and servicing Barry and Michael all night. Only thing that makes sense!

        5. avatar Pg2 says:

          Jwm, I can’t explain why you miss my non vaccine posts. Maybe the same way you miss the blatant hypocrisy and ignorance that you and others here flash like a merit badge?

        6. avatar jwm says:

          pg, I can’t miss whats not here. And 1 two line comment about a gun for every 100 scatter brained comments about vaccines would not count as being on subject.

          But that’s ok. You go on being your obnoxious self and convert more voters to pro vaccine. It’ll work out well for the nation as a whole.

        7. avatar Pg2 says:

          You can’t unlearn what you learn. The lack of science behind vaccine safety is disturbing, to say the least. The number of People questioning vaccines only increases.

        8. avatar Knute(ken) says:

          JWM: Note how slippery PG2 is at avoiding your simple little question; does he even own a gun? Ignored as if he just missed it, but OFC we see that isn’t possible. It WAS your whole post after all(rule #6). Note how he is always attempting to misdirect and distract(rule #17). Note how he seems to take great pleasure in being a pain in every ass he can find that will listen(rule #18).
          My money is on that he is a paid disinformation merchant. Well paid to act like an ass and make as many people as possible think that if he is the average anti-vaxer, they want to run for big pharma, just to distance themselves from his idiocy, even if they already know what all is going on with Monsanto, Bayer, glyphosate, the mass payouts, etc.
          In fact I’d lay odds on it. He fits the published profile to a “T”.
          https://vigilantcitizen.com/latestnews/the-25-rules-of-disinformation/

        9. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

          JWM, there are folks who comment on here I no longer bother reading what they have to ‘say’.

          I’m not identifying who they are, but my mental health has been far better off since I started that policy… 🙂

        10. avatar jwm says:

          Knute, I have believed for a while now that pg2 is a plant by either big pharma to drive people towards vaccines or a gun control group to make gun owners look retarded. Either way he earns his 30 pieces of silver.

          Geoff. It helps my mental health to vent a little at easy targets like pg2 and vlad tepes.

        11. avatar pg2 says:

          Knute..I’m surprised you haven’t accused me of being a Russian troll. Paid merchant for people questioning vaccine safety and the pointing out the government attempts to mandate an untested product on the public? A production that is protected from manufacture liability? You’re either drunk or stupid. Jwm, your post makes as much as sense as all your your previous posts on this subject….zero. I’ve never posted anything remotely anti-gun, or anti 2nd Amendment, or anti-anything Bill of Rights or Constitution related. But nice try.

        12. avatar jwm says:

          pg, nice misdirection. You don’t have to post anti gun statements to serve your function to make us look bad. You do that quite well. In fact you’re one of the better trolls we’ve had here for a while. Certainly better than vlad.

          My money is that you are a big pharma false flagger. Your mandate is to discredit anti vaxxers, which you do so well. Making gun owners look bad is just a side benefit for your handlers.

        13. avatar Pg2 says:

          Disagree, gun owners who support government control over the public’s health care and mandated medical/pharmaceutical procedures make us look like naive, hypocritical fools. You preach freedom and independence on one hand, then slurp government/industry collectivist goo when it comes to vaccines. Pathetic. Luckily the tide is turning, and as I said yesterday and will say again, you can’t un-know what you know. Why do you think people questioning these products is rapidly growing? It’s not the other way around.

    2. avatar Dennis Sumner says:

      Why is it people like this immediately condemn the instrument that killed their loved one, but completely ignore the miscreant who committed the crime. Not only trashing all of us and our passion, in lot of cases, in the same breath say they “forgive” the animal who did it. Guess it’s easier!

      1. avatar Knute(ken) says:

        Its cognitive dissonance. When a supposedly intelligent being chooses to believe in lies that he knows full well are BS, but his group says to believe…. so…. he does. He suppresses all vestiges of intelligent thought, in order to stay a part of whatever flock he joined. That’s how they can say complete babbling idiocy like: we need to protect journalists by torturing them. The sheeple have cognitive dissonance reeeeeal bad.
        For example: https://medium.com/@caityjohnstone/uk-foreign-secretary-defends-torturing-journalists-then-says-we-must-protect-journalists-fc5163e03cb2

      2. avatar Southern Cross says:

        They are not seeking justice. They are seeking vengeance. And they don’t care who or how many suffer in their quest for retribution.

        And they often don’t realize how the media and anti-gun groups will misuse and abuse their grief for their own ends.

  9. avatar Gov slave says:

    It’s only a compromise on how much they bite off your rights per unit of time.

    1. avatar Knute(ken) says:

      “Compromise does not satisfy, but dissatisfies everybody; it does not lead to any general fulfillment, but to general frustration; those who try to become everything to all people end up by not being anything to anyone.” -Ayn Rand

    2. avatar Knute(ken) says:

      This has nothing to do with compromise, but it is my favorite quote from Ayn Rand:
      “The question isn’t who is going to let me; it’s who is going to stop me.” -Ayn Rand

  10. avatar barnbwt says:

    This guy sounds like a total racist, to me. Sounds like he sees the world as black & white racial conflict, even though an Asian killed his son. “They’re basically white” I’m guessing.

    1. avatar User1 says:

      America was founded by supremacists/racists and controlled by racists for a very long time. The Democrat party are still racist. Some states still have a lot of racist people.

      That environment created a mentality within the black American’s mind that is somewhat out of date. The system wasn’t designed to be racist initially, but eventually racists took control. It was very racist up until about the 80s. To expect black Americans to simply forgive and forget quickly is unrealistic, especially when there’s still people out there maintaining the trauma. If you are not black it’s easy to tell them to shut it and move on, but white people’s lineage didn’t have to go through their experience.

      Obviously, we are at the point where black and white shouldn’t be fighting or thinking negatively of one another. However, they still behave like their grand parents. Some of that is because of supremacy/ego. They feel like they are at war with each other and someone has to be the victor because that’s how it was in the beginning and for most of the America’s history. Bad habits are hard to break.

      To move on white people need to reach out with loving arms not sarcasm and trolling, but the pride is too strong for most to do that. They will simply say, “I am white and I am proud of that. I didn’t do anything to any black person, that was my ancestors. You can’t blame me, it wasn’t my fault.” That’s very defensive and counter productive in building bridges/connections between races. That’s not to say you have to pretend like you are guilty of enslaving, raping and murdering. You simply have to acknowledge the past for what it was and what consequences it brings us today. You have to be human by empathizing and sympathizing with a person’s history. It’s a lot of work to help people get closure and move on.

      You can’t forget they don’t have much to look back on like white people do. They can’t have pride in being a decedent of slaves and illiterate people. They don’t know who or where their ancestors came from. They don’t have their native language nor culture. Their history is void. It’s difficult for a human being to not have a connection with their beginnings, it haunts them. For instance, most adopted children want to know who created them and the story behind how they got where they are.

      Broken people are hard to fix. Since white Americans broke black Americans intentionally, black people feel like white people should pay for it. You break it, you buy it. Hence the whole reparations talk. Most people shouldn’t have to pay anything to some random black person, but white people who descended from earlier whites should put in some effort to get people going in the right direction instead of ignoring them or attacking them.

      This whole “we conquered you, get over it loser” mentality is essentially saying, “F*** you!” That only makes things worse and shows you are not for progress.

      1. avatar jwm says:

        Now that’s a racist rant. You’re pushing the narrative that blacks somehow are not capable of functioning without the benevalent white man playing ‘big brother’ to them.

        You leftist are all the same. You will be the guiding light that fixes the troubles of the world. Except you’re stepping all over your dicks to not fix, but control the world.

        1. avatar strych9 says:

          Nice that he’s coming around to some degree.

          I do kinda understand the initial emotional reaction against guns though. When my buddy got shot in the head he didn’t want to see a gun at all for a couple of years and when The Departed came out he walked out of the theater. We all followed him, asked him what was going on and he said “I can’t watch that. Too many people getting shot in the head”.

          Took some time but he kinda got over it. Kinda. I don’t think you ever really get to the point where something like that “never happened”. It permanently changes you.

        2. avatar strych9 says:

          Dammit. That post was supposed to be a stand-alone rather than a reply.

          Sorry about that.

        3. avatar Knute(ken) says:

          Sure they do. Its the natural outgrowth of their desire to “save the planet”. Naturally, someone who thinks he can be everything to everybody, and perfect at all decisions every time for every body BESIDES, well, obviously has some very serious mental problems. And for one that crazy, well if he is the embodiment of perfection, then obviously anything he does to anybody is automatically justified by the perfection that will(in the diseased mind we’re discussing) follow.
          The fact that only chaos ever follows is just the symptom of lots of people following the village idiot and destroying whatever that “grand poobah” disliked on that particular day. But, as with all diseased minds, that will change with the moment. Perhaps what he forbade yesterday will be required of everyone today. No society can long survive that way. It must destroy itself, as surely as night follows day.

        4. avatar User1 says:

          You must not be a religious person.

          How old are you? I always feel like your responses are that of a teenager.

        5. avatar jwm says:

          user. I claim no religion. But what has that got to do with your racist rant? And I’m old enough to have spoken against the GCA 68.

        6. avatar Knute(ken) says:

          User1: were you perhaps referring to ME as the non-religious one, and not JWM?

        7. avatar User1 says:

          Lean on Me by Bill Withers

      2. avatar surlycmd says:

        Humans haven’t changed in millenia. We lead far more comfortable lives because of a/c, indoor plumbing and Netflix. However, we have in no way evolved beyond the petty, vindictive different tribe bashing predators we have always been.

      3. avatar John in Ohio says:

        “If you are not black it’s easy to tell them to shut it and move on, but white people’s lineage didn’t have to go through their experience.”

        Nonsense. I have lineage on both sides of that fence. It doesn’t mean squat these days and it really shouldn’t. Much of black culture today, under the ever present guidance of the left, is debilitating itself. Relations have taken a turn for the worse since the 1990s and popular black culture is squarely to blame. The hate against whites in many black youth of right now is incredible and it is uncalled for. This is exactly what the left wants… class warfare. If your skin is light, walk down the streets in these hoods. It’s unmistakable murderous hate. If you open carry a firearm, it’s even more palpable. The guys around my own age in our hoods here, mostly black, agree with me. We notice it. We speak of it. We are very concerned about it. A lot of the white guys are clueless here.

        Again, lineage doesn’t mean a hill of beans in relation to what’s going on in black culture today. What the youth are being taught is straight up hate and frank racism. It has no place and will serve no good purpose.

        “Since white Americans broke black Americans intentionally, black people feel like white people should pay for it. You break it, you buy it.”

        They are breaking themselves with a victim culture and purely racist mindset in which they are bringing up their children. Even in parts of Africa, blacks are breaking themselves. It’s not the fault of white people in general. There is far more hate from blacks to whites in the communities I live and travel in than there ever was in the late 1980s and early 1990s. Social engineering and indoctrination is working… The left are fomenting a class-race war.

        Being back in the city, my hometown, after being away for over two decades has opened my eyes. I am no longer falling for the leftist race bullshit.

        1. avatar Dennis Sumner says:

          Someone said it out loud, yay!

  11. avatar Chip in Florida says:

    “… But now it seemed that the implied dialectic was a sham, and that in fact the two sides were locked in a sterile opposition from which no consensus would ever emerge.”

    Why is it that the people who scream loudest for compromise are the least willing to give anything up in the name of compromise?

    We used to have a nice big cake, now it has been compromised down to the smallest of crumbs. (https://www.everydaynodaysoff.com/2013/11/08/cake-and-compromise-illustrated-guide-to-gun-control/)

    1. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

      This,No more slices Not even crumbs.

      1. avatar Knute(ken) says:

        That’s because we cannot afford to give up the crumbs now. They’re all that’s left. That is why there are so many more of us now. Because our ancestors compromised away almost everything, and many are now waking up to the fact that when the power structures say; “compromise”, what they mean is: “You give me whatever I want”.

    2. avatar barnbwt says:

      Ergo there’s no longer room for debate; the gun grabbers took it all, and it wasn’t enough for them, so now we get to do this (irreconcilable conflict). “Our side” helped, as far as not ever winning back barter-able territory when we had the chance.

  12. avatar 41mag says:

    “..How do you compromise with someone who wants to eliminate one of your civil rights?..”

    You don’t.

  13. avatar User1 says:

    The NRA has a different opinion. They believe there is a compromise to be had; most of the membership agrees. NRA shills like hickok45 are a perfect example.

    1. avatar barnbwt says:

      “The loss is acceptable so long as it is slow enough to not be felt as a crushing defeat”

      1. avatar User1 says:

        “Only the tip…”

      2. avatar Dennis Sumner says:

        You know what’s worse than compromising with people who cant even spell the word? People arrogant enough to profess to know how a group of people ( “most NRA members”) feel about anything! Either a non member or another freakin troll!

        1. avatar Knute(ken) says:

          I vote troll. He knows nothing about firearms, not even the most basic facts, so NOT an NRA member. Even the worst Elmer Fudd still knows the difference between a rifle and a shotgun.
          As for knowing exactly how the NRA members all think…. OFC he does! He heard it on CNN. What more does a trollish brain need?

        2. avatar Pg2 says:

          @ken…Says the troll….you can’t make this shit up.

        3. avatar Dennis Sumner says:

          Yes you can, and do.

  14. avatar possum, destroyer of arachnids says:

    I’ve thought about ” How I would feel if one of my loved ones were killed with a gunm” , that would be a tough one for me as I’m pretty sure I much wouldn’t want to see a gunm after that, for awhile anyway. Then on the other hand, the gunm didn’t do it, the person whom used the gunm did it. Kinda like do we hate the drug, the drug dealer or put the blame where it belongs, the person who used it. I find it strange that when a child is ran over by a vehicle the bereaved drive to the funeral in a car without a second thought. But gunms, now that seems to be a different story.

    1. I find it strange, too, especially when I realize that some of the people in those funeral carms are smoking reeferm or huffing gloom gluem.

    2. avatar jwm says:

      Possums have funerals? I see them sun drying on the road all the time.

      1. avatar Knute(ken) says:

        That’s the only place I ever see them. They must be able to hide real good….. from everything but truck tires. They seem to be a possum’s blind spot. Upon reflection, perhaps it’s not the greatest of survival strategies to see a semi heading right for you and think: “if I just hold real still in the middle of this road, he’ll never even see me…”

  15. avatar uncommon_sense says:

    We are already at a significant compromise level in shall-issue states. Think about it. You have to pass criminal background checks for all commercial sales and transfers. You have to pass a criminal background check for a shall-issue concealed carry license. You (typically) have to pass training for a concealed carry license. Almost all shall-issue states specify several classes of locations — many/most of which are PRIVATE PROPERTY — where your license is invalid. There are age restrictions. Many/most shall-issue states have fairly severe restrictions on whether you can have long guns readily accessible in vehicles. And many/most shall-issue states have pretty severe restrictions on knives/swords.

    Finally, we have to overcome federal red-tape to own suppressors, so-called “short-barrel” rifles and shotguns, full-auto firearms, and so-called “destructive devices”.

    We are already at major compromise. No more.

  16. avatar uncommon_sense says:

    Suppose each of one million criminal scumbags raped a woman 10 times a year. And then government proposes a “solution”: allow that nasty criminal class to “legally” rape a woman once a year to assuage those criminal scumbags and reduce the number of rapes from 10 per year to 1 per year for each of those criminals. Should we agree to that?

  17. avatar Shire-man says:

    Compromising your rights is easy. Just kneel beside the ditch and close your eyes.

    1. avatar Knute(ken) says:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxp3Mf4m528

      “Whoopsie daisy. Stupid little ones grow up to be the annoying big ones.” -Peter Cook in “Yellowbeard”

  18. avatar rt66paul says:

    How about real “education” about guns? Teach about safe use of firearms in secondary schools, show what firearms do when hunting game, and how to use the firearm safely, safe storage, safe carry, etc. A gun is a tool, just as a hammer or saw is and like them, can cause injuries when misused.
    Glorification of the use of firearms is in movies, tv, video games, and many popular fiction books, so the media is more of a problem than a solution.

  19. avatar WI Patriot says:

    Well, there is no compromise, there will be no capitulation…
    The Constitution, as a whole, may be a “living” document, BUT the Bill of Rights is NOT…

  20. avatar former water walker says:

    Not close to as off topic as anti-vaccine bs or baby murder but has ANYONE seen a picture of DeWayne Craddock the alleged shooter in Virginia Beach?!? I’ve seen “claims” of Black and Muslim. C’mon this dude worked for the city for 15 years and worked out at a local gym😩If you want COVER-UP here you go!

    1. avatar User1 says:

      I heard from the police chief that he didn’t get fired. There are reports he quit that day and then attacked.

      1. avatar Sian says:

        If he hadn’t been given the room temperature challenge by police, he’d still be a city employee.

    2. avatar Chris T in KY says:

      The Libertarians liberals in the Left would rather promote the idea that this guy was mentally unstable. Instead of being a mentally sound black Muslim who hated Christians and wanted to murder them. And join the Jihad.

      Just like they don’t want to talk about a gay couple who were intimately involved with each other and decided to commit a mass shooting in Denver Colorado.

      1. avatar Dennis Sumner says:

        Wondered about that, almost complete blackout on the “news”. Almost believed the line from the cop spokesman about not publicizing shooter’s info because of sensitivity to the victims. More I find out, more it looks like the usual selective coverage!

  21. avatar JimBob says:

    If they take the guns away, there would be unintended consequences that haven’t really been thought out. Like the democrat running for president who said if they didn’t turn them in that the government has nukes. It could start a civil war, and a lot more people would die then are killed in school shootings.

  22. avatar Jim JOnes says:

    This guy,….like all anti-gun people….aren’t arguing facts but emotions. There is a reason we don’t make laws based off views of emotional people who lost loved ones. LOGIC wouldn’t be making the laws. That’s why I hate law named after some kid “Joey’s Law”…it’s always some knee jerk reaction but legislators so they can put grieving families next to them to push their agenda.

    Same with this dude…a gun didn’t kill his child….a nut case did. Did he give any thought why this guy was walking the streets? I’ll bet there were a million red flags on this guy like with every other shooter. And most likely those in power(police, etc) did nothing about them.

    But let’s logically look at gun death numbers. Roughly 2/3 are suicides. You can wave a magic wand tomorrow and get rid of all guns and suicides won’t go down or stop. Nations with higher suicide rates have total gun control(Japan). So that leaves about 11,000. Study after study study shows the VAST majority of those are drug and gang related….and they occur in very specific zip codes(shockingly inner cities). These same areas are full of hard drugs(also illegal) and massive amounts of crime. So again…wave a magic wand and make all guns illegal tomorrow and nothing will really change.

    So if we are left with MAYBE 2-3k gun deaths that don’t involve suicide or gang crime do we REALLY have a gun problem? IN a country approaching 400 million people with at least that many guns….some say there might even be triple the amount of gun.

    Now I”m not saying 2-3k a year is nothing..but is it a national crisis? Hardly….look at page https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr67/nvsr67_05.pdf

    51k died of the FLU..the freaking FLU
    34k from FALLING..yes FALLING…mostly down stairs, etc
    3.7k from DROWNING
    6k+ from ACCIDENTAL suffocation or strangulation
    58k for ACCIDENTAL poisoning
    100k+ from drugs and alcohol(and even more from under reported medical malpractice)

    SO the reality of the numbers is for those are killed with a gun who don’t live in inner cities hellholes, are members of gangs, and/or involved in crime/drug trade are about the same amount as those who drown and less than those who accidentally suffocate. Is there a big push by the Left, the media etc addressing the National Crisis of Drowning? Or Accidental Suffocation?….hell…any equal amount of people die a year from accidental poisoning as ALL gun deaths….where’s the freak out over that?

    So those are the facts and that is the reality. American doesn’t have a gun problem. America has a problem with a very specific subset of people(low income…mostly young, black, and male) who live in very specific geographic areas(inner cities) who are basically feral human beings without morals or values and who will kill over protecting their drug trade. THOSE are the cold hard facts. Gun laws won’t change any of that since that subset of people don’t care about laws and the money they make from drugs is more important than laws to them. Also…..politicians and people in that community would have to start looking in the mirror and take responsibility why these people turn out the way they do(it’s not poverty…plenty of poor people in the past of all races who didn’t act like this)..the would mean questioning their culture, their values…their lack of morality..their lack of discipline…welfare enabling single mother homes….etc etc.

    Of course..non of the above matters anything to someone who has lost their child. They want to not only assign blame but also make sense out of their child’s death….give it some type of purpose and meaning. So the easiest thing to do is blame the EVIL gun and try to ban them. And of course nobody will every go against a grieving parent……nobody will tell them that the world is full of evil people and we all get our ticket punched sometime….even if it’s some random thing like falling down or getting murdered by a nut job.

  23. avatar Sam I Am says:

    “We either have the right to keep and bear arms or we don’t…. Once that essential truth dawns on more people on both sides of the question, maybe then we can finally have that honest conversation about guns.”

    Isn’t this a posture supporting the idea that two unalterably opposed forces can compromise? Which was the problem to begin with?

    The nation had “the conversation” when the second amendment was ratified.

  24. avatar GunnyGene says:

    “Compromise” is merely another word for surrender.

  25. avatar Ed Schrade says:

    A criminal killed your son, why don’t you put the blame where it belongs and not infringhts of law abiding citizens.

  26. avatar Aleric says:

    I figured this out in the 90s. How do you trust someone who LIES to your face and will NEVER abide by any deals they make. But what have we heard from the GOP since the 90s, we must work with Democrats, give in so they will give in and help each other. The GOP gives, the DNC takes and spits in their face EVERY SINGLE TIME. Yet the GOP still calls for working with Leftist. I came to realize the people hurting gun rights and gun owners were those who sell them out to COMPROMISE and thus surrender to the Left. FCK them.

    1. avatar Knute(ken) says:

      Perhaps it’s now the time to realize that both the democrips AND the rebloodlicans are both bought and paid for by the same multinational corporations they serve with such slavish devotion?

  27. avatar Chris T in KY says:

    Racist gun control never ends. White Liberal gun owners only find other ways to rationalize their most inner racist views of dark skinned people.

    The author is following a pattern of self education common with white Liberals. At first they totally reject the Second Amendment. And after some time they will come to understand that ownership for THEM is okay. But not for other groups of people they deem unworthy.

    President Bush was correct when he described white liberals as having a soft bigotry of low expectations for black people.

    White Liberals are the enemies of Liberty. In a previous TTAG story a liberal college professor learns about guns and comes to like them. Part of his discovery is finding out that black people like guns also. And those black people are law-abiding.

    It’s interesting how white conservatives have known about law-abiding black people using firearms for a much longer time than white liberals have.

    Massachusetts was the home of the Abolitionist Movement centuries ago. But now former slave states of Kentucky and Mississippi have constitutional carry and everyone regardless of race Creed color or national origin has the right to keep and bear arms.

    Law-abiding black people and everyone else are still waiting for the right to keep and bear arms. With the possible exception of the enlightened white liberal.

  28. The problem with having a “national discussion” on guns is that we have been having that conversation for well over 50 years. As a result, most people have well formed (though often not well informed) opinions. Very few people have not made up their minds. Most are either totally opposed to gun rights, or totally supportive of them. Of course, where you live determines which of these two opinions dominate. Thus, we have many states strengthening gun rights protections, while others are doing their best to get rid of private gun rights.

    That said, this doesn’t mean that no one is in the middle of the road on guns. There is a small, but critically important group of people who don’t want to see guns taken away – but perhaps want “assault weapons” banned and/or background checks expanded. Put these people with the gun banners and you can, in the purple states, end up with about 60%. This is how Bloomberg succeeds.

    So, that small number of misinformed people are those we need to reach. Consider that Justice Scalia actually took Justice Kagan shooting, and eventually hunting. She actually harvested a deer. Does this mean she will vote for gun rights? Probably not – but she certainly knows now that much of what she has been told about gun was pure BS. One thing is sure: If she is ever a surprise vote for gun rights, we can thank Justice Scalia.

    Maybe we all should look for the same kind of opportunities…..

  29. avatar Freebird says:

    The — ” Lets have a Conversation ” about guns means , lets discuss what we will demand you give up NEXT.

    Lets instead have a ‘ conversation ‘ about ” Common Sense ” printing and FIRST Amendment control !

    NO. …….. Say it with me ,,,, NO .

    This is the soul of all Freedom.

  30. avatar joefoam says:

    First line says it all “psychotic” kills his son. As soon as you figure out a way to legislate sanity, morality or common sense for that matter, let me know. Then we’ll talk compromise.

  31. avatar BusyBeef says:

    NO COMPROMISE

  32. avatar sound awake says:

    the very second that she called us deplorable and irredeemable…
    as in:
    >not worth saving
    >not worth keeping around anymore
    is when it became no compromise about guns and the second amendment
    knowing what we now know about them and especially how they view us we can never ever allow them governance over us or the ability take away our firearms
    the day she was defeated was perhaps the best day in this country in the last 50 years

  33. avatar Bill OF Rights has no expiration says:

    There is no compromise on a right!

    Maybe we should compromise on slavery and make all democrat gun haters slaves.

    I mean just a little compromise like that is surely reasonable!

    That is much nicer than their crimes of treason which is death.

    If we start true justice and arrest all for these treasonous acts with appropriate justice u will see people waking up RIGHT NOW!

    We are too soft…we need to honor the founding fathers documents and wishes and start arresting those violating the Bill of Rights!

    The supreme court refuses to hear so many cases that violate the Constitution and make treasonous decisions! They also have 4 highly treasonous members and @ least 7-8 who failed Constitution class on the Supreme Court. Their decisions are more based on not rocking the boat and everybody is political regardless of a judges claim.

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