After you figure out how you might hold, carry and fire this Rube Goldberg weapon, then think about why you’d want to do it in the first place. Here’s the official rationale, from the “Master Key” episode of the Sons of Guns TV show: “A local SWAT officer asks Will to design a gun which will cut down on the time needed between breaching a door and switching to a primary firearm.” And there I was thinking you shouldn’t enter a bad guy’s house without LOTS of cops. And lastly . . . how much? $1889 for Red Jacket Firearms modded Saiga. Yowzir! How about a Howitzer?
1. Seems weird that there is nothing supporting the rear of the Saiga.
2. That Saiga is an AOW.
3. Why wouldn’t you just load breaching rounds for you first two shells and have the remaining 18 in your drum be buckshot? Why would you want to switch to a rifle?
4. Do Want.
The Saiga shotgun with a magazine seems totally unnecessary to me. Why not just use a pump action shotgun for the masterkey? It would definitely cut down on the profile and I think it would be just as effective for it’s intended use.
Because the shop on the show has a fascination with AK variants and Saiga shotguns. I thought the same thing, if I was making this, I’d just stick a Mossberg 500 on it or a Remington 870 and call it a day. That is, of course, assuming that I couldn’t talk the guy into just running a shotty to begin with.
Also to shave a little time. All that is required to defeat a single shotgun blast is a deadbolt or similar secondary door fastener, so a second shot is likely. The Saiga cuts the time needed to pump and reset the shot.
The swing weight of the AR has to be ridiculous. Getting it on target would likely be slow… moving with it also slow. I doubt any SWAT officer would want this.
I saw that episode and though to myself, “gee, that’s the dumbest thing ever.” After thoughtful contemplation, it may not be the dumbest thing ever, but it’s in the discussion.
I like the show, and the people at RJF are obviously very talented and passionate.
However, this whole setup seems completely ridiculous. The design looks pure Hollywood…all flash, no substance. KAC already has a master key on the market, and their design looks much more practical and ergonomical…basically a short-barreled pump gun, not too much bigger than an M203. I could be wrong, but the RJF Saiga design looks needlessly bulky and complicated by comparison.
Watching the show, it seems like there are several projects that are undertaken and filmed more or less to prove that it can be done, without having too much of a practical purpose. Wouldn’t surprise me, given the fact that the cameras are on and the producers no doubt want a “story.”
These people are no more machinists or gunsmiths than Im the king of England. They hack up stamped metal weapons and other manufacturers parts with die grinders and hand drills claiming to have done the “impossible”.
Integrally supressed AKs been used by Soviet Spetsnaz since the 70s, Masterkey? yep, KAC been doin it for 20 years. NOBODY would carry that bulky piece of junk on a dynamic entry anyway.
The rest of the crap they koble together is as useful as a screen door on a submarine.
And the melodrama is ridiculous! The “clandestine” meeting with the client, the so called “security contractors” comment about “im tired of bringing my men home in body bags”. Men and women are coming home in body bags for REAL and to say things like that for the sake of making good TV is BS! But then again you cant expect a bunch of armchair commandos to really understand the true nature of combat operations.
These people are doing nothing more than making responsible gun owners look like bafoons and raping the 2nd amendment to grab their 15 minutes of fame.
Boycott Discovery channel and their paying sponsors!
you just mad cuz u broke and cant afford one
I couldnt agree with you more. A guy wanted a double ar-15 type gun to mount on something. So red jackass shot three 100rd drums in a row through the customers ar-15 then, he needed a laser thermometer to see if the glowing red metal inside would be hot! On another episode some complete idiot payed them to build a bottle rocket shooting contraption out of a bunch of pipes that was supposedly needed to scare off somalia pirates from some ship. I never knew fireworks were so threatening. Just like any other reality show it is far from reality.
Well not exactly. They fired the 3 100rd magazines to see exactly how hot the barrels would be not if so they could build a proper cooling system for the contraption. The finished product was a completely functional water cooling system from scratch.
“The finished product was a completely functional water cooling system from scratch.”
Sure was! In fact it was a cooling system you can find in most novice computer tweekers case for cooling his dual video cards. That thing was as cobbled together as it gets. I could understand if they used decent, costly, enduring parts but this setup was garbage.
Of course it was cobbled together it was just a working prototype.
I was watching the show a couple times and couldn’t quite understand what I was seeing. I’m not a gunsmith, but I do have a little experience working on Saigas. What they were calling a landmark moment in gun smithing, I did in my basement on a Saturday afternoon….just like 1000’s of others. I kept waiting for them to actually make something, like from scratch, I was hoping to learn something. It seems all they do is buy a bunch of rifles and hack them up, add some bells and whistles, and mark it up 300%. Then you end up with some pointless Frankenstein weapons that are just silly (see picture above). I just did a google search to see if I was the only one, maybe I was missing something, then I found this thread. Now I watch to see what dangerous pointless contraption they’ll come up with next.
Obviously, the first person has no clue what a SWAT officer needs or what a properly built weapon would or would not need. This is a fine weapon and I would be proud to beach any door with this weapon and know my ass was clearly covered!
Eagle
USMC VET/MOS 8541
so you’ve actually shot this gun and you approve?
I’ve personally breached and cleared using a KAC Masterkey and this Saga variant is bullshit. I don’t know why this “SWAT Officer” would want his breach man to be the #1 man….. more times then not when you “stack” on a door, either with a 1,2,3 or 4 man team, your breach man moves up and breaches then moves the F out of the way…. http://youtu.be/hfBffSr1udk ….. You can see this point illustrated at the 24 second mark of the video…. “boom, boom, step back, transition, cover your ass (watch the door for your team)”. I can tell you from personal experience that extra weight (as previously stated) makes a weapon harder to wield, and harder to transition from target to target.
My breach man, Spc. Foster actually chose the Mossberg 500A as his breaching weapon over the KAC’s Master key and the M26 MAS for durability and ease of use.
Not to mention the shitty weapon handling by the SWAT officer in the episode…. why take your strong side hand off of the AR pistol grip? Why not just use your support hand to fire the “Masterkey”? That way you don’t need to move your strong hand back to the AR pistol grip, because it is already there! And you can keep the weapon properly supported, retained and in the pocket of your shoulder!!!!
Army Vet/ Currently Serving
Baghdad, Mosul, Tikrit, Diyala Province
Agree 100%
If you’ve conducted any sort of Breaching (explosive or firearms based) you see the flaw with the whole concept immediately. The idea of “one man does everything” is a moot point when breaching. The #1 man either has a blanket or a shot gun. Once you initiate…you GET THE HELL OUT OF THE WAY. Ridiculous concept and the LE are retards for asking for it and “advertising the idea”.
I am glad that I found this as I was thinking this so called Red Jacket was some sort of sick joke . I was a SWAT member with the 372 M.P. and we used 870s and det cord for entrance. As far as there “guns” I thought Will was a Marine, They call them weapons not guns . Anyway I geuss it is kind of fun to watch to see what they will do nexed. Has that master key fell appart yet ? Dosen’t look too stable to me .Thank God they are not making our millitarys weapons !
I watched 2 episodes and had enough. These guys are unprofessional clowns.
The shop banter is worse than a Elementary School playground; immature and useless. The weapons are cheap third world country boat oars, with added flash and a 200% markup.
I agree with Michael Dayton: “Thank God they are not making our military’s weapons!”
Hey, I think these guys are entertaining to watch. Sons of guns is better than most of the other crap on TV these days. I like the machine gun segments and I’m sure that the criticizers here would jump at the chance to shoot some of the guns on the show. What else you gonna do down in Cajun country better than building toys that go BANG? Their stuff’s a little pricey but hey they’re TV stars! Give me a good old MAK 90, 10,000 rounds, a couple loaders and we’ll hold ’em off on the cheap, till the barrel melts. My opinion is that they should drop the part of the show where Will gets on the guys asses for this or that, it doesn’t add anything to the show for me. Keep bangin’ away RJ.
i agree, the show suns of guns is the same as bear grills which is the same as american chopper. all influenced by certain proposed “scenarios” which are or are not ______ . well i cant say but truth is , this weapon was fabricated around circumstances that are or are not real. discovery has been known to
“offer” situations in order to generate viewer interest. this is a classic example.
In addition, the red jacket pricing scale has increased over 30 percent since the airing of the tv show in third week of jan 2011. Ive worked for a company 3rd party ( had to sign contracts kinda scary mafia vibe) behind the scenes if american chopper and trust me discovery has a big influence ie $$ on the final product.
It is a fugly mucker. My biggest concern is the use of a semi-auto shotgun. Use one shot to breach now your weapon is still loaded. The pump addition KAC produces is much cleaner and looks to be less prone to “snagging”.
I thought that those conversions were still out there! I remember a kit where you could hang a mossberg.
I am not a firearms builder, but even my wife has seen the gun in the box its been around for many years and WILL could’nt believe it, mag pull makes them I think, and what about the shop guys they are clueless. then the guy comes in from custom gun works and can’t believe the ATF cut the heck out of his MG parts kit, DUH! that WILL is so arrogant the way he turns customers away if he thinks they are not gun people. WILL is a pork roast headed bafoon and the show stinks!! how bout the guy in the shop sweet johnny
People like this make responsible gun owners look bad.
Discovery has hit a new low.
ok the whole not giving non gun people a gun is a common practice from what I’ve seen gun smithing around here and in my own shop. I, personally, find it a great thing after all if I sell Joe Snuffy a gun and he’s never used one and he injure himself I am liable and in the interest of customer satisfaction it would be better if he at least shot a few of his friend’s gun ti see what he likes I wouldn’t give a novice shooter a .50 AE Desert Eagle. So yea I do the same thing if someone orders or wants to buy a gun in my shop they are asked if they own one if they’ve ever shot one if they answer no to those I send em home to think it over and try out a few guns with friends or let em come to a couple of my gun safety classes. It’s only good common sense to keep my customer base alive and well and keep my insurance rates low- ish.
Happy shooting
One concern is the semi auto taking more time to render safe before switching to the rifle, unlike a pump would. Concern two is the fact that master keys are mostly un-necessary due to the fact that the #4 man on an entry team is usually the breacher and has plenty of time to transition to another weapon while the rest of the team enter. You breech and get out of the way and enter last, it is always faster!
I often wonder why some of his clients just don’t learn to shoot well, maybe they would not need to send 50 rps in a hand held weapon down range, just send it the helicopter gunship, gee, that is the rate of a minigun. Youbetcha most stuff looks unbalanced, and who knows how well the mods will hold up in the field, a lot of R&D goes into each build and you see a lot of long term field testing, don’t you. Oh wait, Will pulls it out his….gets his money, out the door.
Some things on this show drive me crazy the other day they had a guy that came in with an AR he shoots left handed as do I noticed that the guys upper receiver had the wedge on it like mine to deflect brass I have never ever ever ever had brass fly back into my face after 3500+ rounds they swapped out his upper so it was a left hand model obviously it was staged I am sure that the Red Jacket quality is there its just the stuff they show and do on the show just comes off as crap and things you would see in a made for cable movie but not in real life and as I type this they just ran an ad for next weeks episode a shotgun with a tazer on it I believe the shark has officially been jumped
So many negative comments. It is just the way it is. Why not use already made guns and do your own twist on them. It is no different than if you own a custom car shop. All of those parts are for the most part built by someone else and bolted on and made to fit in some way or another. Nothing is truly “hand crafted” anymore. If the gun is about two grand; big deal. What’s two thousand bucks? I am an audio forensics expert and I will buy software for five to eighteen k. It comes down to if you want it bad enough you will buy it. If you complain about price then maybe you can’t afford it. If you think two k is too much for a gun then build it yourself. It’s that simple people. Now stop being jealous and get yourselves your own TV show than maybe you will feel better.
its not the price that bothers most of us on here its more like simpler is better and the breacher opens the door then moves out of the teams way thats how you do it. trying new things will get you in trouble most of the time other than that its all a lot of luck. if any REAL law enforcement realy went in and asked for this thay failed the comunity thay serve by throwing out years and years of millitary and LE research. its a novle idea but still save the taxes and just use a 870 and put a breching round out the back of the door.
Now, I’m not a gun builder, but yeah I agree that most of the show is for pure entertainment/”i did it because i can” stuff and for TV (that’s all it has to be for it to be a show), that works. I *HOPE* no one at home, gunsmith/vet/LE or civilian would tune in past the first 10 minutes and expect to see a video course in how-to’s…. although, if anyone out there has the knowledge and teaching experience and the interest, that’d be a helluva program. Suppressed AK’s may have been around for decades, but I want to buy one — not because I have a need, but because I have an itch and am allowed to given our rights, so where should I find one if we snub folks that only take AK platform parts and assemble them? Yeah, I’m sure prices have gone up, good for them for their luck, and I’m sure their customer service on the small-scale buyer level has gone down (shame on any business that forgets service with a smile), but let’s not go overboard with boycotting and getting upset that these guys have a show that revolves around obvious playtime.
On another note… especially given lack of LE experience, it did seem strange to me to add the weight, bulk and overkill of a semi-auto shotgun with a mag for a breeching tool. Pump action seemed to be a more natural choice, too…. but like someone said, their business was built on AK, so AK they did.
This show had its moments but certainly jumped the shark long ago. What was left was basically the old “marine” yelling at the tattooed kid who seemed to be the only one who knew how to build anything while the village idiot and the skanky daughter turned the whole shindig into days of our lives. The welder guy and vinnie or whatever his name is seemed like they were decent guys trapped in an idiot farm but the wannabe jarhead owner and his teenage slut made me want to shoot my tv every time they opened their mouths to talk about another game changer.
Dude who ever is posting this is just an asshole Iam not being a fanboy here everything ever posted about red jacket here is derogatory and contains nothing but insults shove it up your ass
I agree with anonymous #1.
This seems to be a b*tch factory circle jerk complaintfest against Red Jacket and the Haydens because they’re on TV.
See also any half-bit (because they’re only worth a quarter of your run-of-the-mill two bit) bounty hunter with a hate h@rd-on for Duane “Dog” Chapman.
Oh- and speaking as a fellow Teufel Hund, you either are or are not. After you’ve earned your Title, you’re never again a “wannabe” Marine. He has earned his title. Have you, dear detractor? My guess would be that *you* are the wannabe Marine.
1. The T.V Show is Great Show too! They Did Mfg Guns of Full auto” Weapons too! With a Legal Licence too! Is (010)& (020) Mfg too Is Class-02 & N.F.A Rules Apoplyed too! They did not break any laws of Federal Gun Laws & State Guns Laws too! They had a Dealers Licence is Class-03 is (09 ) Licence to sell fullauto Weapons Legalley agreed! Is all legal to do it too! This New Gun is New Invention agreed!! P.S. New Type new Firearm Double Firearm of Semiautomatic ! Or Full autoMatic Firearms New Product market to be mfg too! Agreed! They will test fire it too! if it works too! Agreed! P)ut it om market soon too! Agreed!!!
when he went Jordan half the weapons he sent are probably are going to used to kill our solders what a profit traitor I hope you can live with your money.
Anyone who supports or condones the assclowns at Red Jack Off firearms needs to have their heads removed from their asses. How in the ever loving hell do you mindless idiots navigate from home, to work, and then to Wal-Mart? These tools are an embarrassment to quality gunsmiths and craftsman that truly make nice firearms. I wouldn’t let will load a clip much less his daughter give me hand job, seriously she would probably fvck that up. I pity you fools for even being smart enough to turn the channel on the TV remote to watch such insanity. Instead of watching this you guys should stick to doing what you do best at night, fvcking your sisters. NFA should always stand for NO FAGS ALLOWED. If you think this is good TV, go fvck yourself. John Moses Browning is turning in his grave because of people like Will.