feelings vs facts
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It’s strange that the research cited here isn’t also used to support withholding free speech, due process and voting rights as well. Why take any chances?

There are developmental reasons people in their late teens and early 20s, especially males, are particularly likely to engage in gun violence and other dangerous acts (like my reckless driving). A crucial factor is that the frontal lobes — which help us think through our actions — do not fully mature until roughly age 25. There is, moreover, another brain-development issue relevant to mass shootings in particular: The teens and early 20s are a crucial window for the onset of severe mental illness, particularly psychotic disorders such as schizophrenia. That window begins to close around age 25.

These facts open the door to a gun-regulation compromise. Even if more aggressive measures are stymied by gridlock, Congress might consider banning the sale of firearms to people under 25 (except, perhaps, hunting rifles). Even conservatives have shown some appetite for age-based restrictions: Just three weeks after the shooting in Parkland, the then-governor of Florida, Republican Rick Scott — now in the U.S. Senate — signed a bill shifting the age for purchasing a firearm from 18 to 21. But the choice of 21 was arbitrary. Recent research in neuroscience suggests that 25 makes more sense. …

Several businesses whose profits depend on the safe use of their services recognize the risk posed by people in their late teens and early 20s. For decades, insurance companies have charged young drivers and their parents high fees because they are responsible for a disproportionate share of accidents. Most car-rental companies refuse to serve people under 25.

— Drew Westen in You shouldn’t have a gun until you are 25, research suggests.

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  1. And yet it’s cool to use those undeveloped frontal lobes to vote…

    Something way deadlier than a gun.

      • You never offer a coherent argument, only insults, but in your mind that isn’t ridiculous.

        • OK, here’s a good reason why we should carefully consider offering lethal weapons with no training, supervision or licensing to those under 25:

          “For decades, insurance companies have charged young drivers and their parents high fees because they are responsible for a disproportionate share of accidents. Most car-rental companies refuse to serve people under 25.“

          Insurance companies are rational businesses who base their decisions not upon a motion, but rather upon verifiable data.

          And no, one stupid vote by a 25-year-old is not the same as a 25 year old slaughtering members of the community because they are having difficulty handling their girlfriend break up, etc.

          What you are offering is known as a false equivalence.

        • Miner49er inadvertently makes a great point. Now that his team nakedly rigs presidential elections (with tacit consent from some GOP officials), 25-year-olds with guns are potentially far more consequential than 25-year-olds who can “vote”.

          Leftist fanatics don’t push gun control because they’re “racist.” They do it almost purely to disarm white kulaks.

        • Miner49er, your example also is a false equivalency. There is not a one to one ratio of under 25 year old’s on killing sprees vs the same age demographic percentage of voting. Thankfully, these mass shootings (the non gang related ones, as that is a different problem to solve) are incredibly rare. So much so that we hear about each individual one on the news, and yet 703 people have been shot in Chicago alone THIS YEAR and do we hear about it at all?

          Contrast that with the millions of people who are 18-25 that voted in the last election. They 100% percent helped determine the outcome of local and national races given the small margins that we saw. So its not “one stupid vote” per one shooting. It’s millions of stupid votes per a handful of “none gang” mass shootings.

          The bottom line is we need to have consistency in what is considered an adult in our society. If we are saying that someone isn’t an adult and thus can’t buy a gun until 25, I’ll listen to your argument.

          What I won’t listen to is the idea that they are mature enough to elect our leaders, sign up to potentially give up their lives in the military or law enforcement, drink, etc. BUT somehow not be mature enough to own a gun for self defense as a normal citizen. That is illogical, emotional nonsense.

        • “his team nakedly rigs presidential elections“

          You may not have noticed, but your side had 60 opportunities to present credible evidence in the United States’ various jurisdictions and failed miserably at every opportunity.

          Local, state, federal district, federal appeals and the United States Supreme Court have all tossed these spurious claims because they either offered no evidence besides rumors or the evidence that they offered had no merit.

          And now, many of the individuals who publicly stated these claims as fact are now calling anyone who believed the claims of election fraud as fools.

          Sidney Powell has invoked the fox/tucker Carlson defense, the “no one should believe anything I say ‘cause any reasonable person can see it’s all bullshit” defense.

          It won’t help, Dominion and Smartmatic will recover billions from the kraken, Giuliani, Mr. pillow-head and Fox ‘News’.

        • Miner49er: You may not have noticed, but your side had 60 opportunities to present credible evidence [of election rigging] in the United States’ various jurisdictions and failed miserably at every opportunity.

          Because you’re just reading from a summary of Dem talking points, you probably don’t understand that the courts that have ruled against Trump and allied Republicans so far have done so on procedural, not evidentiary, grounds.

      • “You know how ridiculous you sound when you say that, right?”

        Any more ridiculous than your ‘contributions’ when you drop in?

        In, sneer, out. That’s the total breadth of your ‘contributions’ in TTAG. Uninspiring, to say the least…

      • If we don’t trust a person to rational enough to be able to defend themselves, how can they be trusted to select a ruler who will be responsible for the defense of our nation?

      • Not half as ridiculous as you sound, hurling half-@$$ed insults without argument or evidence . . . but you be you. We have no trouble ignoring you when you spout nonsense. Like, all the time.

      • You lost his meaning! The power of the vote changes our government, our Nation, our laws and more. Yet our wars are fought by our men and women from ages 18 and up. We have 19, 20, and 21 year old soldiers, air personnel, and Navy making critical life and death situations in the field or where ever they are serving. They shoulder tremendous responsibilities. And to say that because they are not 25 they shouldn’t own firearms? YOU FRACKING DUMB ASS MORON! If anyone of these can make such critical lifesaving decisions as required with instant or moments considerations, than they can damn well be responsible enough to own firearms before age 25!

    • Gamer747,
      I agree. I was very passionate about the 26th Amendment and its military rationale until I learned the military’s perspective on leadership and responsibility.

    • At 16, nonetheless.

      No guns until you’re 25. Make decisions affecting the entire nation nine years before that, though. Absolutely.

  2. “Recent research in neuroscience suggests that 25 makes more sense.”

    Yet Democrats want 16 year-olds to be able to vote. It’s almost as if it isn’t about logic, it’s about pushing the agenda, which is always attaining more power.

    • Dude,

      “… it’s about pushing the agenda, which is always attaining more power.”

      The more I see, the more I conclude there is a two-fold agenda which most of the Ruling Class covets:

      1) More power

      2) Setting society “on fire” and watching it “burn”.

      That last point is in a proverbial sense. I think many of the Ruling Class are outright evil and revel in watching chaos, misery, and suffering — especially when they (the Ruling Class) are largely responsible for it.

      Saying it in a simple way: many of the Ruling Class are the equivalent of arsonists which enjoy setting buildings on fire and watching them burn. It gives them a sense of power without actually having to put in the hard work of truly acquiring real power.

      • I’ve thought of them as cultural arsonists for a while now. Pretty sure I didn’t coin the term, but it fits.

      • I wish someone had stopped me from marrying my pregnant girlfriend 47 years ago today…19,young ,dumb & full of not wanting my son to be a bastard. No one could tell me what to do. Oh well😞😢😕

      • “There’s a conflict in every human heart between the rational and the irrational, between good and evil. And good does not always triumph.”

    • Lowering the voting age is part of a program to lower, or even eliminate, the age of consent.

      • Yes, I imagine Matt Gaetz is all for lowering the age of consent retroactively.

        I’d be willing to wager that Matt Gaetz is charged with sex crimes before Hunter Biden, any takers?

        • For ONCE, Minor IQ, I actually agree with you . . . given the absolute corruption of this administration and our vaunted “institutions” (FBI, anyone????), I have little doubt that Matt Gaetz will be charged with sex crimes, which he may or may not have committed, before Hunter “Crackhead” Biden, who not only demonstrably did, but he recorded it on his laptop. And, you being you, I’m sure you’re fine with that.

          Surprisingly, for a person capable of ratiocination, it is possible to condemn the behavior of both. Not that I expect that from you.

  3. Ok, sure, then…no cars, drugs, alcohol, cigarettes, voting, sex, knives, cellphones, guns, or credit cards, or getting married before 25 years old. Can’t let these kids join they military either. Shouldn’t let them protest or lobby if they don’t know anything. We shouldn’t let these unaccompanied “minors” travel, fly, or take vacations without a responsible adult chaperone. Shouldn’t pay them $15 an hour wage, they will lose it or waste it.

    Just like red flag laws, the left wants to selectively exclude guns “not old enough, responsible enough!” But why only guns?

    • “But why only guns?”

      They’ve told you right here in the article. Because young men tend to do things with guns.

      Now, they don’t concern themselves about what they claim. If they did Chicago would be on the front burner. Ditto some of the other blue cities at this point where defunding the cops has jacked up the murder rates by an alarming amount.

      No, they’re only worried about one type of violence and they know that, like all forms of risky behavior and violence, young men tend to be the ones more willing to engage in this type of risky, violent behavior.

      It’s called a “revolution”.

      • “Ditto some of the other blue cities at this point where defunding the cops has jacked up the murder rates by an alarming amount.”

        Yeah, the ZH had an article yesterday about the Oregon newspaper finally admitting de-funding the police was a bad idea :

        “Mea Culpa: Oregon’s Largest Newspaper Admits Defunding Police Was A Terrible Idea As Homicides Skyrocket”

        “Oregon’s largest newspaper, The Oregonian, has published a mea culpa over their previous endorsement of defunding the police, after 266 shootings and 25 homicides in the first quarter of 2021. In fact, in a Monday article from the paper’s editorial board, they heaped praise on the city’s gun violence reduction team and defended the mayor’s recent proposal to restart the ‘canceled’ unit after a spate of violence ensued.”

        • Generally speaking I’m of the opinion that I’ve seen enough violence to last a lifetime.

          However, for these idiots I might make an exception.

    • Why only guns?

      Anti-gunners have bought into an intense and frankly irrational fear of guns: a gross overestimation of the dangers posed by handling firearms and a bizarre perception that guns exert psychological control over the people who have them. Since they fear guns (especially scary looking ones) they can’t possibly imagine they could ever own one safely (hence their disinterest in their own rights to keep and bear arms). Because they don’t believe they are responsible enough to own guns themselves they can’t picture you being responsible enough for gun ownership either. The only people “responsible” enough for gun ownership are the military, (maybe) police, and (probably not but occasionally) hunters (so long as there’s an adequate amount of wood on the firearm, since that’s less scary).

      That’s the way it is in the place I have lived since I was a child. You say (even in a perfectly appropriate context) you own (or are even interested in) guns and people will be shocked and afraid. That’s why guns are different- the people are scared of firearms and think the people who don’t find them scary are crazy and/or dangerous.

      And before anybody gives me the “juS Moov” bull, I deserve the same rights as any other American. Yes, the state I live in has voted to undermine the right to keep and bear arms. I really look forward to the day the Supreme Court gives my state the absolute smackdown it deserves.

  4. Reasearch, Really. Totally not true. It depends on how you were raised and where you lived. Some of us lived in isolated areas, self reliance and responsibility were required to get by. Look at rural communities where most young people had a firearm availible at 12 or 14 years old. Very little so called Gun violence in these communities. We didn’t have a lot of free time, we were working actual after school jobs at 14.
    So called GUN Violence is a urban thing, Usually by latch key kids where the parents fail them without even knowing it. I blame the parents and schools. Teaching stupid crap that really has no basis in reality. And, yes, today is yet another day I have not used Algebra. What a waste of time that was.

    • I was with you until the algebra comment. That isn’t the stupid crap they’re teaching in schools these days. Everyone should learn algebra and geometry in middle and high school simply because you may not realize what you want to do with your life after high school. It also helps to get you in the mindset of analyzing and solving problems.

      • I work a “blue collar” lab job (quality control lab for a chemical manufacturing plant), and I use basic algebra occasionally. My killer was calculus. Dragged my GPA down for my entire college career, and I dont see how it has a use in everyday life aside from perhaps high level research or other very niche jobs.

        • I hated calculus as well. I wanted to get it over with so I took Calc I and II over the summer which meant something like four hours of calculus Monday through Thursday all summer.

        • Having worked my way to a reasonably high level in a very technical profession, I completely agree with you. After being clobbered by it in college, I have not used, nor even had the slightest “close call” (i.e. lucking into Job A, but a colleague in Job B would have to – never, no one, not even remotely) with calculus. It’s rationalized as being necessary for nukes, but even nuke friends tell me they never used it after nuke school.

          Every moment wasted on calculus would have been much better spent on drilling in the ability to do algebra (or even arithmetic) reasonably quickly in one’s head, and the practical side of STEM in general. Those skills we used practically every day.

        • “I work a “blue collar” lab job (quality control lab for a chemical manufacturing plant)…”

          Did the same for many years.

          Th endless repetition was broken up with the mindless monotony of shift work. And weirdly, I kinda liked it…

        • Math at various levels is a weeder course.

          Math requires that you are disciplined enough to learn a set of rules for thinking through a problem and translating that thinking into arriving at the correct answer.

          This is strongly correlated with the ability to reason though other problems. You want to be a cellular biologist? Well, you’re gonna need some biochem. That requires a few classes of regular ol’ chemistry beforehand.

          If you can’t do precalc, the chances you have the mental discipline to pass chemistry are slim. The same is true of calculus and biochemistry.

          It’s also true that biochem requires certain forms of analysis that use portions of calculus, like integrals and single variable differential calculus, on a regular basis. You’ll also need a background in statistics. Again, math.

      • Bill Gates donates heavily to make U.S. education “equitable” by continual lowering of the standards while Microsoft demands H1B visas so they can import competent foreign employees. That should say enough about the liberal thought process.

        Try the new math learning system. You will be appalled at the simplistic stupidity of it and understand why kids can no longer even make change for a dollar bill.

      • algebra taught me I should rethink my career plans…so much for me wanting to be a scientist!….up to that point academics had come easily…it was like hitting a brick wall….

    • “And, yes, today is yet another day I have not used Algebra. What a waste of time that was.”

      Cripes, you sound as bad as my nieces and nephews.

      The purpose of learning competency in algebra (and other subjects) is that it is training your brain to learn new things in a structured and logical way. That makes you a more useful adult. You know, so that someone who doesn’t know you personally may wish to hire for a job that requires structured thought to perform competently…

    • Leftist = age 16 is okay to vote, smoke weed, watch porn, choose your gender…

      Want a gun, wait until you are 25 and hopefully laws will be passed by then to prevent anyone of any age from owning a gun. Sucks to be you, kid.

      • That might backfire, deny a teenage or young adult something and it seems it makes them want the denied item even more.

      • Ragnar,

        “Leftist = age 16 is okay to vote, smoke weed, watch porn, choose your gender…”

        You omitted some very important items in your list:

        Leftist = age 14 is okay to have sex with a 25 year old man without parental knowledge/consent and okay to abort your baby in your womb without parental knowledge/consent.

        And I imagine it is only a matter of time before Leftists support the idea that age 14 = okay to have a physician prescribe puberty blocking drugs and opposite-sex hormone “therapy” to “change” you “gender” without parental knowledge/consent.

        • Younger than that, actually.

          Truly scary shit…

        • Different times and different circumstances. My grandmother was married at age 14, she could cook, clean, milk cows , and start a family.
          It’s hard to find a woman age 26 that can do any one of those things nowdays.

        • They are arguing for 8 years olds to have gender reassignment drugs!!
          As far as I’m concerned, Constructional Rights are all the same. Voting equals GUNS equals contracts equals citizenship. You want to give felons and 16 year olds the right to vote? Great, then let them buy guns. If you trust them to run the country, then you trust them. If you don’t, you don’t.

        • And those ‘parents’ ought to be shot.

          It’s gonna be interesting in 20 years to see the results of such criminal acts…

        • I imagine that shit will end quite a bit more quickly than two decades.

          The country’s nearly out of cancer drugs at this point. I doubt we have a Hunter Biden sized stash of puberty blockers.

  5. We need to realize that the First Amendment was written for single page at a time hand cranked printing presses…LOL

    • “… for …”

      Is that aspect written into the First Amendment?


      Do you find your own ignorance amusing?

  6. The march to infantilize & demonize young men never ceases. Yet we wonder why young men prefer p0rn & video games to real life.

      • Jap snipers would have no problem picking them off with those earbuds wedged in their ears…

      • That patriotism is long lost.
        Somebody did a good job with the younger generation not giving a fck about the country they live in.
        ” Who’s George Washington, is he on Facebook?”

      • I have 3x 18-22 young men that would do fine (1x Jarhead and 1x Army). What is your disfunction that YOU can’t raise American men?

    • Men are less likely to vote for the Democrats, therefore they must be destroyed.

      How are the Dems not evil?

  7. But, a child’s decision to choose to take puberty altering drugs or have an abortion without their parents knowledge or consent must be unquestioned.

    What f’d up times we’re in.

    • The anti-gun stuff is bad enough on its own, but easily explained by a desire for control no different from the oppression people have visited on each other throughout history.

      But put it together with their exaltation of the transsexual mutilation of children, mass abortion, and the rest of it… There’s a hard core of the “progressive” left that hates humanity itself and wants to twist it into something ugly and inhuman.

      I’m agnostic, but I’m almost starting to agree with the religious folks I talk to who say there’s demonic possession going on with the rabid leftist/progressive/social-justice crowd. Or it could be that they’ve been poisoned by what amounts to a mind virus. Either way, normal human beings don’t operate like that. It’s downright creepy.

      Something is deeply wrong with a society that turns out people like them in large numbers.

      • Look up “Voluntary Human Extinction Movement” but it is guaranteed for nearly all of us uneducated, unenlightened, and unwoke proles the decision will not be voluntary.

        • Yeah, I’ve heard of that. Those people are cuckoo-for-cocoa-puffs insane.

          It’s amazing, the positions people can think themselves into.

          I have an internet friend from back in the day (haven’t been in touch for the past 4 years) who is an anti-natalist. In most other respects she’s normal — a decent person who is also literally a genius, one of the smartest people I’ve ever run into — and so far from an SJW or ecofascist, is actually a hardcore libertarian. She would consider it a great outcome if all life somehow ceased to exist, but whatever…at least, unlike the “progressives,” she’s not interested in forcing everyone else to share her vision of the world.

        • Oh God, Ing. I’m sorry you had to find one of those nutbars.

          The ones who talk about this from a Kantian Ethics point of view are fun to toy with though.

  8. Of course. “Follow the science.” Unless the “science” impedes the Left’s agenda.

    • While science doesn’t follow politics, the scientists can be made to comply with politics.

  9. As Jeff Cooper said – “the effects of reckless gun use are localized – reckless voting affect us all”.

    Or something to that effect.

    If we are going to mete out rights based in age, it going to change a lot more things in this country. Much profit is made in youngsters making rash decisions.

    So if the age of majority is to be 25…… no contracts, no marriages, no kids, and no job.

    And certainly, no “minor” should be able to make life decisions on their own. So no abortions, no sex changes (or whatever they call it these days), and certainly no tattoos.

    And Rick Scott is a RINO of the highest order. I voted for Nelson since there was no difference in my eyes. Easier to get rid of a Democrat that votes like a democrat than a RINO that votes like a democrat.

  10. Tom Ammiano, the former California Senate President agrees. He’s a proud gay man who destroyed the high school rifle teams and 2nd Amendment education programs. As a member of the San Francisco School Board. Which he got elected to the school board to specifically destroy 2nd Amendment education. Because you see, as a homosexual with no children, he didn’t see any reason why other people’s children, should learn about their civil rights. Just as the Washington Post writer believes that other people’s children should not learn about their civil rights.

    There was a time in the United States when it was illegal to teach a black person to read the Bill of Rights. And anything else. It was a death penalty offense to teach a black person to read and write. It seems that this sexually liberated man and others like him agree with this very old American law.

  11. I agree that many people 18-25 are not intellectually adults. I have been saying for years that the 18-21 year olds should have to petition the state to be adults – that would mean full rights and responsibilities. Sadly, we make more cannon fodder for credit card companies, they are active and try to get college freshmen to sign up. We are so ready to try some 14 year old as an adult in a joyriding car accident where the other joyrider got killed(for example).
    There is no way a kid, whose parents are footing his college bill is an adult. Conversely, there are many kids that pair up and start their lives together(my paternal grandparents were 13 and 17 when the came to California – grandfather on the other side had his mother lie and joined the Navy before he was 15). There is some truth to this. The thug life and Hollywood movies glorifying misuse of firearms, crazy car stunts and the like just feed these kids minds. Pretty soon, some of them begin to feel like these extreme actions are really normal – aren’t you supposed to get away if the cops catch you? All the movies say that……. what is another dead cop?

  12. So before I retired, I was a supervisor and had to review legal reports. To my amazement, some of the reports submitted were from employees that had master degrees and the spelling, grammer and sentance structure was so bad, I had to red pen many and sent the reports back to be corrected or redone. Simple things, like vehicle maintenance report: “vehicle needs breaks”. They did not know that when refering to a vehicle It’s spelled “Brakes”.
    Now, I am not a college educated man but I can add and spell. Ever watch a millennial try to give you change?. As to the algebra issue, I personally build two houses, and three shops and still never used algebra. Why teach algebra when kids today can’t even do simple math or give change back. Hell, most men and women today don’t know how a toilet works, geez.

    • There have been a few times when I could’ve used geometry (most of which I’ve forgotten) or basic trigonometry (which I never studied), just in DIY projects around the house. Had to ask my daughter to do some calculations for me. 🙂 Algebra, never.

      I’ll tell you who does use algebra and calculus, though — electrical engineers. A lot of those guys routinely do Big Hard Math. An English major like me who only writes about what they do…not so much.

      • Trig was my big problem. I did fine with it in school but forgot it before the first time I needed it. Fortunately, I still had the textbook, studied up, did what was needed, and kept the book so when I needed it again 8-10 years later I could still get it done. I think a total of 4 times over 50 years, but I’d bet money I could find that book in an hour or 2.

    • “Ever watch a millennial try to give you change?”

      Ever ask a “we haz monies” Boomer who *runs* the electrical department where to find the electrical staples in a Home Depot only to have the guy look at you and ask how a staple can be electric?

      Yeah, maybe it’s time to put all this generational warfare on the shelf, eh? I mean, or we can not and just keep playing right into the Left’s divide and conquer strategy…

  13. This deceitful damnable odious “LBJ/KGB” style age discrimination is predicated upon lies, deceit, and class warfare!

  14. How long before they start talking about dementia risks for older people and how that should preclude them from gun ownership?

    Oh, wait… they already did.

  15. How about they do a study on what reading the WaPo does to your brain?

    Leftism, not even once.


  17. To NTexas, take breath francis, the key to sucess is keep an eye on current culture but focus on real business. Profit margins will result in success in business as well as personal life. Do you want a great life, don’t marry an emotional basket case, (about 70) of all current females. Simple dating test, take her out to dinner and a movie, if she gets on her cell phone for any reason other answering her phone in reference to her parents or an attorney, dump her, she will drag you down and ruin your life. decent real people have an actual life not fakebook friends. Be a winne, r work hard, save and enjoy life without drama. .

  18. To NTexas, take breath francis, the key to sucess is keep an eye on current culture but focus on real business. Profit margins will result in success in business as well as personal life. Do you want a great life, don’t marry an emotional basket case, (about 70) of all current females. Simple dating test, take her out to dinner and a movie, if she gets on her cell phone for any reason other answering her phone in reference to her parents or an attorney, dump her, she will drag you down and ruin your life. decent real people have an actual life not fakebook friends. Be a winne r work hard, save and enjoy life without drama. .

  19. I’ve commented on this before. The article, as those of its ilk typically do, conflate “still developing” with “sufficiently developed”. The question is not whether the 20 year-old brain is “still developing”, it’s whether it’s sufficiently developed to understand and apply the principles involved in the full adult exercise of constitutional rights.

    This is an important line that needs defending, because a few years after age 25, cognitive decline begins to set in. Sure, it won’t be significant enough to have ramifications beyond precisely calibrated psychometric tests for decades, if ever, but if we allow them to equate mental competence with some platonic ideal of cognitive function, it won’t matter.

    Besides, if we were to equate mental competence with peak cognitive performance, there aren’t more than a handful of mainstream journalists who would be allowed out in public without a minder. Perhaps there’s something to the idea after all.

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