“At least 319 people, including 11 law enforcement officers, have been killed in incidents not ruled self-defense involving private citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns” according to the June update of the Violence Policy Center’s (VPC) Concealed Carry Killers on-line resource. As Inspector Columbo used to say, “Do you mind if ask you a question?” Since when and according to whom . . .
The Violence Policy Center’s Concealed Carry Killers database documents 216 incidents in 31 states since May 2007. In three quarters of the incidents (161) the concealed carry killer has already been convicted (69), committed suicide (87), or was killed in the incident (five). Of the 51 cases still pending, the vast majority (41) of concealed carry killers have been charged with criminal homicide, three were deemed incompetent to stand trial, and seven incidents are still under investigation. Four incidents were fatal unintentional shootings involving the gun of the concealed handgun permit holder. Nineteen of the incidents were mass shootings, resulting in the deaths of 84 victims.
Because most state systems that allow the carrying of concealed handguns in public by private citizens release little data about crimes committed by them, the primary source for Concealed Carry Killers is published news reports. It is likely that the actual number of fatal incidents involving citizens legally allowed to carry concealed handguns is far higher.”
I know John Lott. And I, sir, am no John Lott. I’m safer blindfolded holding a sub-machine gun than crunching stats. Even so, I’d like to point out that 319 “concealed carry killings” since 2007 equates to 79.75 murders per year. That doesn’t strike me as excessive in a country of 300 million legal citizens, roughly 150 million guns and some 50 million gun owners.
What would the VPC have us do about it anyway? Strangely, the press release doesn’t offer any suggestions. I have one: prosecute the offenders. Aside from the 87 who killed themselves.
Robert. You got to do this: start a database of people murdered with knifes in the UK!
The bonus is this makes it easy: http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/knifecrime
If you tabulate it, I will publish it. More than that I cannot do.
I thought it would be easier, but apparently these people that blame knifes for deaths unsurprisingly blame guns for deaths, and they lump them together.
RF, here we go again. Ten (10) years ago it was 90,000,000 gun owners, and 250,000,000 guns in America, and now you have it down to 50,000,000 gun owners and 150,000,000 guns, how can that be! Are you getting your facts from the VPC or MAIG’s?
Ah, the marketing department at the wingnut confederation is working overtime. We now have assault clips, rapid fire clips, Concealed Carry Killers (which sounds like the title of a Z-movie), military-style assault weapons and cop-killer bullets. Whoa, that’s some scary sh!t!
Don’t forget those teflon coatings, they make it easier to kill more people with the same barrel!
Don’t forget those “heat seeking bullets”! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRQqieimwLQ)
I guess these fools would feel better if none of these KILLERS had a carry permit. The only problem is that you don’t need a permit to break the law. If these KILLERS want to KILL you they would do it even if they didn’t have a permit, and you would still be just as DEAD.
The VPC crybabies don’t want to point out another statistic: that CCW licensees are far more law-abiding than the average registered Democrat. Or Republican. Or military veteran. Or college graduate. Or almost any other identifiable segment of the population.
There is no way to prove or disprove that assertion statistically. It’s one of your classic NRA from-out-of-thin-air pronouncements. The main thing you can say about cc permit holders with any certainty is there are extremely few of them.
Actually, the VPC listing contains some interesting and colorful cases. RF could and should mine it for IGOTD. One of my favorites involves two Florida CC’ers who shot each other to death in a neighborhood squabble.
Regarding “extremely few”: Suppose all of these incidents happened in Minnesota. According to our 2010 Permit to Carry report, there are 75583 valid permits in the state of Minnesota. 319/75583 = 0.4% of permit holders. I fail to see the VPC’s point, especially considering these 319 incidents are spread across the entire US.
Also, if the story of two people shooting each other to death is “one of your favorites,” well, that’s just sick. Choose your words more carefully next time.
Actually this has been proved in Texas. DPS (which issues CHL in Texas) publishes the conviction rates of CHL holders. TexasCHLforum.com has taken the information from DPS as well as the conviction rates for Texas, and put together a graph showing the relationship between CHL and non CHL holders. Broken down to convictions per 100,000 people, CHL holders are 15 time less likely to be convicted of a crime. http://www.texaschlforum.com/download/file.php?id=2260
Ohio also publishes their license revocation statistics and our CHL holders have exactly half the criminal rate of the uniformed police and as Texas, about 15 times less than the general public.
These gun grabbers are sick in the head. They need psychological help. There are professionals that can help with their fear of fellow men and of inanimate objects.
Ban aerial lifts.
The very existence of such a group and their study implies bias. I strongly believe they are skewing the facts, as surely as the Atlanta, Ga Department of Education was just caught doing.
Robert did you look at the list, they have Jared Loughner on there.
Wait…
Arizona is a Constitutional Carry state, isn’t it?
I wonder if these numbers represent actually licensed CCWers (PA, VA, RI, ETC) or if they’re just the total homicide numbers for states with Constitutional Carry.
Are we really surprised?
Well they include suicides on it too and the first person I found had a CCW, the woman killed her husband in their house. Like the first 15 or so there was literally nothing but VPC propaganda saying the people had a CCW.
Why shouldn’t Jared Loughner be included? He was carrying legally. Another responsible, law-abiding citizen.
Why was he carrying? Could it be because numerous governmental entities who had a chance to take action that would have prevented Lochner from legally buying a handgun failed to perform their duties?
I fail to see how that is relevant. He was legally carrying his Glock, having met all the requirements in the state of Arizona. None of the parties he crossed paths with had legal authority to disarm him, incarcerate him, or compel him to seek treatment. He was a responsible, law-abiding citizen — right up to the moment he shot 19 people.
Are you arguing for more/greater psychological screening for gun owners?
“Are you arguing for more/greater psychological screening for gun owners?”
Only for you.
Actually, Magoo, there were multiple times when he could have been forced into treatment, and thereby had his right to possess a firearm removed. However, the local sheriff was too incompetent/lazy/corrupt to do his job, let an obvious lunatic continue to terrorize people, and we all know the result.
Fiction.
Magoo:
Wrong as usual. He was clearly not a law abiding citizen and Sherriff Dupnik knew all about it. There were several incidents that he covered for little Jared. You know why? His parents were friends of the Sherriff. Friends take care of friends. If the CC that he attended and expelled him for his dangerous and threatening behavior had gotten a restraining order he couldn’t have got a gun. Heck, he was stalking Gabby Giffords since 2007. There were adequate laws on the books that would have prevented this attack but they were not enforced for a variety of reasons none of them legitimate. That is why all your “reasonable” restrictions don’t work. They either are not enforced or they are ignored.
Total fiction.
Which part? Stalking Gabby Giffords? Expulsion from the local CC for threatening behavior? The Sheriff’s department being aware of his behavior? His parents being friends of the family? These are all documented in the media.
You are employing the Alger Hiss technique. deny everything even after the evidence is in.
Saying things over and over does not make them true. If there was someone with the power to disaarm Loughner, that person would be on the media hot seat right now. There is no such person or persons.
He wasn’t a CCW permit holder, and shouldn’t be on the list.
Magoo, you picked the right name as it is reasonable to assume you see only what you want to see and nothing, including facts will be allowed to get in your way. Why do you post on this site anyway?
I wonder if the VPC gets federal grant money (my tax dollars) to come up with this nonsense.
Well lets see in Chicago, A non CCW state. We have 153 homicides , 936 wounded so far this year.
http://crimeinchicago.blogspot.com/
I guess I’m safer in an CCW area.
I seldom feel a need to carry back home in Virginia where I am licensed but feel very insecure in Chicago where I cannot. Wonder why.
The VPC is primarily funded by — you know what’s coming next — the Joyce Foundation. What a shock! Kick over any gun-grabbing frededom-hater’s rock, and those slimy bastards from the Joyce Foundation will be there.
Follow the money and you’ll know that VPC, Brady et al are just tools. The puppet master is the Joyce Foundation. From Chicago. With a certain President of the United States being a former Board member. I leave y’all to connect those dots.
Last year MSNBC did a story saying there were about 6 million people with concealed weapons licenses.
From the CDC :
2007, United States
Homicide Cut/pierce Deaths and Rates per 100,000
All Races, Both Sexes, All Ages
ICD-10 Codes: X99
Number of
Deaths Population Crude Rate Age-Adjusted Rate**
1,981 301,579,895 0.66 0.66
http://webapp.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/mortrate10_sy.html
I think and I’m only guessing, simply making an observation, what the assclowns over at VPC are getting at is, that we always use the FACT that Concealed Carriers are without a doubt more law-abiding than your average citizen. I think VPC is trying to throw that back in our face, that there are any, even one to commit a crime with their weapon. I think if they are going to try and track these cases they need to have a site for law enforcement that improperly use their weapons.
Now my question is, since all the data comes from news outlets just how accurate can it be? We all know just how damn accurate the media is. And since most states keep CCW records confidential and free from FOIA requests, how can they confirm whether or not the individual in question had a permit much less a valid one?
And on a separate note, I think more Americans need to be made aware of the fact that the police are not responsible for our individual protection. I admit that I’ve only recently (past couple years), since getting back to the states for good and retiring that I’ve been paying more attention to our 2nd Amendment right. The first kick in my ass though was when I learned that the protection of me and mine is solely my responsibility. And unfortunately, most people I talk to don’t know that either. At times I wonder what the hell did I just serve 20 years for but then I read some articles here and at KABA, read the comments and ya’ll remind me why and for that I say Thank You.
Jester:
Not only do the cops have NO LEGAL OBLIGATION to protect you from criminal attack (start with Warren v. D.C. and go from there) the CRIMINALS cannot be made to obey the law (check out Haynes v. U.S.). Mr. Haynes, a convicted felon, couldn’t legally touch a spent round of ammo, let alone a gun, was found to be possessing an unregistered saed-off shotgun. He was tried and convicted; the conviction was upheld on appel, then the U. S. Supreme Court overturned the conviction, stating that to require a prohibited person to register a firearm forced them to admit their guilt, thus violating their 5th amendment right prohibiting involuntary self-incrimination.
TSgt B
Pardon me; sawed-off shotgun.
TSgt B
TSgt B, I know about Warren and several of the other cases with regard to no obligation. I’ve had some trouble though understanding the interpretation of the Haynes case, your breakdown couldn’t be more clear, Thanks now I get it.
And your rank, current day Zoomie (and I say that with all respect, I’ve had the privilege of serving with all branches) or by chance an ol’ Army tech?
To one and all Veterans: A Sincere and Heartfelt “Thank You For Your Service!”
So 300/300,000,000 (dropping the odd 50 million for those who hate math).
One ten thousandth of 1% of the population in general (0.0001%) kills someone, including themselves. Since 2007, wow that’s like one a week isn’t it? Or less than the daily average for Chicago (that crime free utopia where guns are still effectively banned). I’m just terrified, I guess I need to go buy another gun.
According to MSNBC, there are some six million concealed carry license holders in the United States. Only 300 odd of us have killed someone (presumably) illegally. That’s one out of 20,000, or about .005%. I wonder if the Violence Policy Center could name another group of licensees who are safer.
What this demonstrates is that statistics are forty-three times more likely to embarrass their users than their targets and ought to be banned.
Not a very convicting statistic. Concealed carry have to go through background checks. Anyone can buy a gun illegally on the street and commit crimes.
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