This morning a presumably pajama-clad President Trump Tweeted his support for arming teachers. Not all teachers. “Highly qualified, gun adept teachers.” Teachers with military or special training experience.” How many? The President wants 20 percent of their total population. As America is home to an estimated 3.2 million elementary and secondary school teachers, President Trump would like to arm . . .
640,000 teachers. That’s a lot of guns. And there are a lot of people — especially teachers — who oppose the idea of arming any teachers. As in reject it utterly and completely.
In fact, so many people oppose arming teachers that the mainstream media has a huge choice of educators, administrators and parents ready, willing and able to tell their fellow countrymen why school children are better off without armed, law-abiding citizens nearby, protecting kids from homicidal maniacs.
Not surprisingly, those who declared that Americans’ natural, civil and Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms ends at the school gate rely on the same justifications for their position. Here they are with my rebuttal:
Accidents will happen! Children will be shot by teachers! By curious or naughty students!
If we armed 640k public school teachers there’s a real possibility that a careless teacher might shoot a student or students accidentally. Real, but really small. The odds of any such accident being fatal are smaller still.
As callous as this sounds, you have to balance the odds of an armed teacher committing a fatal negligent discharge — or a student getting ahold of a teacher’s firearm and shooting themselves or others — against the odds that a child will be killed by a spree killer or killers before good guys with guns put an end to a homicidal rampage.
I’m not going to play duelling stats. Suffice it to say, myself and millions of gun owners — people who have hands-on knowledge of gun safety — believe that school shooters pose a significantly larger threat to our children than irresponsible armed teachers.
Armed teachers will shoot the wrong person!
The fear: an armed teacher will try to shoot a spree killer or killers and shoot and kill a child or children by mistake.
Again, it could happen. In this case you have to balance the odds of a missed shot or shots taking out a student or students against the odds of an unopposed spree killer shooting and killing (or stabbing or blowing up) a child or children. And yes, you have to compare the potential body count.
As the armed teacher would have a specific target (e.g., the killer or killers) and the intruder or intruders are [usually] out to kill as many people as possible, the spree killers will have a radically higher “kill ratio” than any teacher with lousy aim and/or no consideration for the possibility of a missed shot injuring or killing an innocent bystander.
TTAG’s run an exhaustive school shooting simulation and found that even relatively untrained armed defenders don’t shoot good guys by mistake. In fact, they’re excellent at stopping a lethal threat. Just sayin’ . . .
The police won’t know who’s who when they bring their guns to stop a spree killing!
I can’t find a single example of a police officer shooting an armed good guy by mistake in any defensive gun use, and I’ve been scanning the net for nigh on nine years. But I can’t deny the possibility that a law enforcement officer might shoot and kill an armed teacher by mistake. And?
You don’t need specialized training to realize that if you bring a firearm out to defend innocent life in the middle of a school shooting, the cops might consider you a lethal threat. So, basically, an armed teacher accepts this possibility — and carries a gun anyway.
As far as an armed teacher somehow distracting cops from a real threat during a school shooting, I don’t think that’s a big problem either. And even if it was, again, the positive impact of an armed teacher opposing a spree killer outweighs the potential negative impact of a distracted police officer. Or, for that matter, a mistakenly shot and killed teacher.
And there you have it
Cold-blooded stuff, right? Which is why people who oppose armed teachers refuse to consider the facts of the matter. I suspect that they suspect that any such analysis would lead to a conclusion in direct opposition to their core belief: guns are bad.
Well yes they are. Guns are bad in the hands of bad people. But 2.1 million defensive gun uses per year say guns are good in good hands. Did I miss something? Why wouldn’t we want our children in good hands?
I say JUST DO IT! It’s either that or spend money we haven’t got on more undertrained SROs. Teachers are with our kids/grandkids everyday and many are willing.
There is no valid argument for not allowing all school personnel and all members of the schools community to carry on school grounds.
To carry or not is up to the individual. The ones who obey the current criminal GFZ signs are not the ones to worry about.
While I agree with everything that you said Mr. Farago, your explanation will not impact
pacifistsgun-grabbers.And the explanation is simple: gun-grabbers have a position based on emotion and Polyannaism which means their counterarguments will revolve around circumstances and not facts. In other words gun-grabbers will keep spouting ever-changing circumstances that preclude anyone but police being armed.
You cannot kick a field goal if the goal posts are always moving.
I define a pacifist as a person who will not initiate violence. There is a different word for these bigots.
A wolf is a criminal who preys on the weak and helpless sheep.
A sheepdog is the armed citizen, law enforcement officer, or soldier who defends the sheep.
Then there’s the sheep – who despite the fact that the sheepdog means them no harm and is in fact, protecting them, still sees them as terrifyingly similar to wolves.
They are sheep. And we’ll never convince them that we are not wolves.
They must convince themselves.
🤠
Those are the same excuses they make for anyone carrying anywhere. I especially like the third… after I shoot the bad guy, have lunch, take a nap, and then the cops show up I might get shot… yeah.
What’s Missing From This Picture?
Metamucil. Because most people can use more fiber.
And a second mag. Because most people can use more ammo.
Haha. Metamucil. That one got me.
I wonder how many people die a year from constipation? Maybe I should drop it before someone tries to make dairy and red meat illegal…
I think a very large part of the city dwelling people; especially in Democratic controlled cities, would be against having even an armed police officer at school, even though like in Chicago; they can hear the sound of gunfire while they are in school. They live on talking points and the promise of a socialist utopia to be provided by people who have never held a job other than class or civil office. How you going to tell them police officers get qualified in just a couple of weeks and are completely vetted within a year? They don’t think any human needs a gun. Ever. They teach professional victimization.
Of course there will be accidents, ND’s and all of the above. Cops have always (?) carried guns, and they have the same issues. But that’s not a reason not to arm and train competent people who are inclined to serve. Or to have purpose- hired security guards for that matter. The key is to let each school or district form a security plan and implement it. It would be perfectly reasonable, for example, for the local PD to set up a satellite police station at a school. The deterrence effect would be huge.
But let’s face it, these incidents are incredibly rare. The risk of the armed security would would almost certainly outweigh the actual risk of a mass shooting.
Although there are exceptions, in my experience school teachers tend to be both the stupidest and most liberal minded people in our society (YMMV). I don’t see 1/4 of all teachers being willing to carry and I don’t believe that people should be forced to do things they don’t want to do (not even bed wetting liberals). However those who do wish to carry should be allowed to as well as visitors. Even if 5% or 10% of teachers and administers carry it could seriously limit the lethality of these attacks and that in turn would reduce the publicity these yahoos get, which is exactly what they’re seeking.
There is an interesting growth in veterans becoming teachers and counselors. I can’t find the exact numbers, but I was reading some VA literature while in a waiting room about it. It’s a growing minority. The military tends to skew right, but of course we have no idea if its just liberal vets becoming teachers.
Just something to chew on.
Even if they’re liberal vets that would still likely raise the median IQ.
The “Troops to the Teachers” thing started during the Clinton drawdown(shutdown) in the early 90s. Largely a myth. GIs are NOT part of the club/coven. They have not had the progtard indoctrination at age 18-25, had the “how to brainwash the kiddies” instruction etc. Not union endorsed. To conservative and to independent minded. Not sufficiently mediocre.
Hmm. I guess the schools I went to attracted a different breed of teacher…
True, though – many teachers are indeed sheep (per my comment above) and should not be issued a firearm. But then, we’re not suggesting issuing guns at all – just no longer prohibiting the few sheepdogs among their ranks from being able to defend themselves. It’s a small but very important distinction.
🤠
I had a couple of good teachers.
Gov Faubus if you would have listend to your history teacher you would not be wholly ignorant of NATIONALISMs crucial role in facilitating mass conscription in the late 19th C.
Remember dunce, you ignorantly proclaimed that in the late 19th C the only reason people stayed in the military was fear of being shot!?
This is typical of the regressive TTAG ignoramuses, you are ignorant of even junior high school-level information yet you endlessly authoritatively condemn other folks intellectual capacity ie Obama/Clinton are idiots, teachers are “the stupidest”
AND when I give you a documented correction you simply ignore it.
This is your reality, repeating bullsheet and ignoring the documented corrections
If there’s one thing I’ve learned from all the “OMG” anti’s it’s that teachers are short-tempered, inept children who shouldn’t be allowed out of their homes without supervision. That’s the impression I’m left with anyway. Who knew teachers were such worthless pieces of shit incapable of running their own lives?
“Montana Couple Fined over Hunting Violations”
Why? Were violations out of season or something? And who would want to hunt violations in the first place? They’re hard to field dress and they taste like sh!t.
A lot of the concerns are based on the canard that ALL teachers would/should be armed. The reality of the situation should/would be more like Utah; where teachers with concealed carry permits are allowed to carry if they want to. The process would be self selecting to some degree considering the livelihood of the teacher and the lives of the students are potentially at stake. Teachers who don’t feel comfortable doing it shouldn’t and most likely will choose not to.
The fact that the plan to arm teachers seems to be everyone arguing theoreticals instead of facts and statistics is troubling. According the the Huffington Post as many as 18 states allow some sort of armed defense on school grounds. I’m not sure if that number is accurate, but there are definitely states that allow and encourage teachers to carry. Why aren’t there studies and stats we can review to help encourage or discourage this plan? My guess is it’s because the mainstream media has no interest in doing so, but it seems like the NRA should be all over providing reality based information on this.
“Arming” and “removing infringements on RTKBA” are different things.
There are already schools that allow carry. They have for years now. I still waiting on one of these incidents. Still waiting.
We already know the results of NOT arming teachers, don’t we?
Folks keep wanting to ‘do something’; this suggestion is different from what we’re already (not) doing.
As someone who worked among teachers in a non-teaching position at L.A.U.S.D. I promise you the last people you want to arm are most teachers. L.A.U.S.D., I assume like most metropolitan school districts, has a huge armed school police dept. alleged to possess even grenade launchers. I recall an armed security person(the Narc) at my high school all the way back in the 70’s.
File this fear of armed personnel on campus in the same category as “teachers are underpaid”. Total B.S.
The Left would never allow guns in school because they have spent half a century getting control of the school so that they could brainwash the future generations with their agendas. They need the new generation to grow up in the culture of disarmament and to completely rely on the omnipresent State. They cannot allow kids to grow up while even seeing guns nearby, in the possession of non-uniformed individuals.
Talking about “arming teachers” is a losing proposition and should be stamped out by the pro-2A crowd.
Nobody wants to “arm teachers”. I don’t want to go putting a gun in anybody’s hands, who doesn’t already want it there.
This is not about “arming teachers.” The winning strategy is to point out that there are already many teachers across this land who are already interested, trained, and licensed, who already own their own firearms, who are already comfortable with using a firearm, who already know what they’re doing. All we want to do is take the shackles off them.
Guys — saying things like “arming teachers” terrifies the teachers who are anti’s. It just inflames passions, and it’s factually inaccurate anyway. Drop the “arming teachers” rhetoric, and instead focus on allowing those dedicated, devoted, law-abiding and trained individuals to protect themselves and others. That’ll be a much easier pill for the pearl-clutchers to swallow.
If you don’t like the 2nd Amendment, you are free to go to another country at any time. This country was founded by people who believed it was a right from our Creator. If you want to have your rights stripped away, go to Cuba, China or North Korea. We are armed and ready to defend our rights here!
It is utterly shameful for anyone to leave disarmed those that tried to protect innocent children.
Per radio and news:
Dead at Parkland: Aaron Feis their Coach AND SECURITY GUARD. Shot multiple times sheltering children from bullets. He had no way to return fire.
Shame upon those responsible for killing this man by disarming him and preventing him from protecting others.
I’d say an on duty, undercover cop probably counts as a good guy shot by mistake:
http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/tag/william-torbit/
How often does that occur? Across multiple police departments? Different department protocols? I am honestly asking, these are the kinds of things that need to be looked at. What protocols can minimize that risk? It might be more common than people know, or this could be closer to a one off event.
It is telling that the coach at the Florida high school that all the students and gun grabbers are calling a hero, was a second amendment fan. Look at his facebook page, countless entries on guns, stand your ground and second amendment. He was right wing.
https://www.facebook.com/aaron.feis
Thanks for sharing. NRA and Concealed Nation.
To answer TTAG’s post of a few days ago, this is why they don’t want teachers to carry. Because we would likely be in a position to have a new NRA commercial with Aaron Feis saying “I’m the NRA” after he stopped a school shooter.
Seriously, a good concealment holster, a spare magazine and maybe a pouch for it, and a good compact flashlight. Looks like there may be some multi-use tools on the carabiner. And don’t forget the lip balm, hand sanitizer, breath mints, reading glasses, cigar cutter and lighter…. Oh wait, all that’s in my man purse.
I’ve had my Colt for a couple years now. I haven’t had any problems with it at all. Looks,weight and feel is close to my Windham M4. Until you open the dusk cover it is hard to tell them apart. The only ammo it wouldn’t shoot is sub-sonic rounds. I backed the pressure off the recoil spring as far as possible and it wasn’t enough. The action would work but not enough to eject the casings. My only complaint is the way it comes apart for cleaning. This is more difficult than need be. If it broke down like a regular M4 it would be so much easier. I am vary pleased with this firearm and would recommend it to anyone that wants the look and feel of a real M4 but don’t wand the cost and noise of shooting one.
First, as I have mentioned in the past I am a teacher. With that out of the way, there are two different issues being raised. How can we increase security in our schools, and does the current model provide cost effective and quality education.
Increasing security in our schools. Due to the training that the teachers and students have received, the number of casualties in the Rancho Tehama incident were minimized. Certainly, no casualties is the goal; however, reduced casualties is a step in the right direction. I have been looking at the teacher and administrator firearms training provided by the Buckeye Firearms Foundation called Faculty/Administrator Safety Training and Emergency Response (F.A.S.T.E.R.). I do not have enough information about this program, at this time, to make any recommendations.
There does need to be a nationally recognized program for certifying teachers and administrators with firearms. This is largely due to the insurance carriers unwillingness to cover districts that allow teachers to make their own decisions about firearms, in states where this is allowed by law. I would like to see the schools policies change from Kansas’s, “district may allow,” to Utah’s, “district may not forbid.” However, I do recognize that some states have even further to go.
As far as the discussion of whether the current model provides cost effective and quality education, it isn’t simple. The big answer is, given all of the expectations placed on American publicly funded schools, they do pretty well. I am not going to go very far into this one because it steers us from this blogs core interest, firearms, into politics and non-firearm policies; however, I do recommend Diane Rivatch’s book Reign of Error. It is well researched and somewhat enlightening.
Yikes…home school if you can! My son and brother do. Good results too…
I would say maybe 20% of my teachers would be good with a gun, but when I was in school, most male teachers were veterans who had been in WWII or the Korean War. A few were in Vietnam. Some of them would have been more effective than any cop.
So Fetard Tom I had asked one your Fetard brethren:
So what is it about the public schools in the US that make them a “failing communistic system” in your “mind”?
And you presumed to answer:
“… look at old textbooks”
This is not an answer.
I can only presume you are too dumb to answer?
Indiana Tom says:
February 24, 2018 at 08:07
So what is it about the public schools in the US that make them a “failing communistic system” in your “mind”?
Just look at old textbooks, you will figure it out.
I think this pistol is worth taking a look at.
I am also one of those that just doesn’t like the feel and grip angle of the Glocks, always feels like I’m shooting uphill.
Also a little tired of seeing EVERY compact carry pistol compared to a Glock, while I’m sure Glock makes a good reliable firearm can’t pistols be judged on their own merit.
And finally, I am so sick and tired of hearing and seeing people, supposed “gun people”, whine, cry and argue about pulling the damn trigger to take it down as if it is the worst thing in the world. The FIRST thing you do when you are going to clean your gun is make sure it is UNLOADED.
Give it a rest people, pulling the trigger to take the slide off is not a problem of any sort.
A sig sticker for his window?
I’ve got two things to say about this:
First, what is being considered is basically punishing the innocent for the crimes of the guilty.
Second, I am concerned that the antis have once again taken control of the narrative and here we are considering the pros and cons of their various ill considered ‘solutions’. I say, screw that, what part of “shall not be infringed” do you not understand?
We need a draft, show these pu$$,E’s what’s reality and what’s fantasy.
The winning rhetoric is Choice.
Let local districts choose. Let teachers choose to carry or not.
#prochoice messes with the liberal head as they’re all for choice when it comes to murder, and now have to argue against choice when it comes to preventing it. Try it!
Guys, not to sound like a completely heartless @$$hole, but is their something I missed? Why was this last spree killing any more heinous than the last dozen? I mean, after Sandy Hook, children who were little more than toddlers where murdered by a psychopath and not a single piece of gun control legislation passed under a very left-leaning president, yet fifty something people are killed by a madman from a Vegas hotel widow and there isn’t sh!t passed, yet 17 teenagers are killed and now we get talks of gun control from the Great Orange C%cksucker wants feel good bullsh!t? I just don’t get it.
I figure a holster is assumed. And we’re already assuming a phone.
I don’t typically carry a flashlight. My smartphone is my emergency flashlight.
Extra magazine is obvious for us “belt & suspenders” types.
I’d say a different knife. That’s a poor excuse for a fighting knife — no stabbing capability at all.
ETA: Heh. Turns out he’s got a flashlight on that octopus of a keychain. Good enough. I do, too, as part of a SwissTech tool, but the battery is dead, ATM.
Who really needs a watch in the days of smart phones?
“The mere thought that teachers should be armed in order to ward off violence is utterly illogical…”
That’s beautiful demonstration of irony.
maybe instead of saying all this here, we should say all this out there so everyone hears us , after all we are telling the truth and that should be put in the face of all lefties. so we can counter their stupidity and their lies .
Voting age is 18 because of Vietnam and the draft: “Old enough to fight, old enough to vote” or something similar.
Drinking age is 21 based upon the “theory” that it will reduce binge drinking, drunken driving, etc. I’m not sure that theory is correct because underage people still get alcohol (Insert gun control analogy here) and I’m pretty sure people have some pretty spectacular hangovers the day after they turn 21.
Of course, I don’t have anything from the CDC to prove or disprove the theory that a 21year old drinking age accomplishes its stated goal, but i’m sure that if there is a CDC study it was conducted with the same degree of care and accuracy that is given to the annual formulation of the flu vaccine. 36% accurate/effective sound about right?
I’m not sure there’s a scintilla of evidence to support the theory that raising the age to buy a long gun to 21will actually prevent a school shooting. I think there is at least some evidence that school shooters acquire their firearm(s) via theft from a relative or via a straw buyer just like most criminals do. That would seem to suggest that raising the age to 21 will not be effective in preventing another school shooting, but so long as ‘They’re doing something”…
End the “gun free zone” myth.
Have armed school resource officer when possible.
Train and arm a few volunteer teachers, staff and administrators to conceal carry.
F.A.S.T.E.R. http://fastersaveslives.org/
Practice lockdowns and counter ambush skills.
Learn trauma first aid. https://stopthebleedingcoalition.org/
Save Lives.
Drop mic. Walk off stage.
I will happily maintain that the glock is a great gun, it’s gets the job done reliably. Reliability seems to be their biggest selling point. They just aren’t for me. I would never feel inadequately armed with a glock, but with so many options out there that are just as reliable, I just can’t justify it. My rough-around-the-edges police trade-in P229R has been every bit as reliable as a glock and the thing’s laser accurate. Ergonomics are spot on as well, and i got it for less than a new glock. But, if you love them, carry on my friends.
It’s the strategy do something benign and useless to give the appearance of taking action on gun control to prevent More restrictive “Assault weapons ban”
It works in Israel.
Parkland school has a one entrance policy with sign in. Problem, they open the gates to let 3,000 kids out. Guess how the shooter got in. One off duty or near to retirement Deputy is not the answer. This one apparantly took cover behind a wall and did not try and engage. There is a fund available for security measures. Rick Scott had already stated he would increase the budget for this by $10m next year. Unfortunately Broward County decided to take much of this fund and spend it on counseling and alternative location for teaching problem children. Maybe a gas tax of $1c would provide additional funds, or maybe a small percentage from the Florida Lotto. Lots of readily achievable options out there, it just takes money. This is where Parents should be taking there protests and demands, not gun control.
So… on the stroke of midnight, the 21st birthday… the previously crazy mass murderers are all turned into peaceful, productive citizens? Hmmmm
We need to protect ourselves from the NRA.
Not “guns” wise, just from their wetshitness
The death rate in Switzerland from mass public shootings is higher than the USA. As a matter of fact, the USA does not even crack the top 10.
Don’t believe me? Look here for the dry stats:
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/
What’s missing? – A photo of a Soccer Mom’s SUV outside of Austin.
I’m not sure the premise of the 2nd amendment is even true anymore. Does a well regulated militia guarantee the security of a free state? I think it did 250 years ago, but now? Now, the cost of all this gun ownership seems to be a lot of dead people. We have between 4 and 20 times more deaths from guns per one million people than other developed nations. That’s pretty embarassing and staggering. We know the sole reason our rate is higher is our increased rate of gun ownership. That fact is essentially unequivocal. We know the costs. If I pile the dead bodies out on the ground in layers of 10×10, they will make roughly a 15 story building of dead people (2,000 people per story)- every year! We can make a large city of dead people every 10 years. We can find a lot of good people in there that otherwise wouldn’t be dead but for our high rate of gun ownership. That fact is unequivocal. What are the benefits of the second amendment? Would all these rifles and pistols really protect us in modern times from a tyrannical government with tanks, an air force, chemical weapons, smart bombs and drones? That seems absurd to me. I don’t really get the home defense thing either. You’re so much more likely to kill one of your own family than an intruder having a gun in the home seems kind of stupid. If someone wants you dead, the pistol in your drawer and the rifle in your gun closet isn’t going to help. The range of circumstances where a gun actually helps you is so narrow while the downsides are so huge it makes ownership dubious. People are emotional and impulsive creatures and under stress a gun is the last thing they need close at hand. Stop the gun madness. Owning a gun should be a privelge not a right. I say repeal the second amendment. It’s time has long since past.
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/2/21/17028930/gun-violence-us-statistics-charts
Beer runs, cigarettes, pot, buying guns at street corners, hookers, sex in back seats, all take place without regard to AGE! Wake up America stop bitching, Rules are always broken, just return to your youth days? Nothing New!
Internet bravado aside, I would not hesitate, especially if I was being PAID to guard the school.
“While we’re at it, is it reasonable to expect armed teachers to find and confront a spree killer or killers?”
Expect them to find and confront? I would encourage it, but no.. shelter in place and shoot the person as they come through the door.
Some will. Some won’t. I hope to never find out which kind I am.
If I’ve you’ve been hired to mow my lawn for me, I expect you to mow my lawn. If you don’t, I’d want my money back and I’ll go mow it myself. I may not be happy about it, but the lawn’s gonna get mowed.
If I’ve disarmed myself, and I hire you to carry guns for me and kill bad guys, I expect you to kill bad guys when they need it. If you don’t, I want my money back, and I’ll carry the guns myself. I may not be happy about it…
Funny I didn’t see “getting rid of the Gun Free School Zone” on that list of things.
I guess Rick Scott doesn’t really want security, just “security theater”.
The Walther may be considered full-sized – but I’d say only barely.
It has a short grip that belies its full capacity and its rounded profile and contours lend itself to concealment very well.
If you really want a full sized concealment piece, I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend it.
🤠
“The FBI and Broward County Sheriff’s Office’s recent failure to intercept a clearly mentally disturbed killer. . . ”
Don’t let an anti-Trump, anti-2A Sheriff with a broke-(D)1<K squad run the CNN post-Op analysis and commentary WHEN CORAL SPRINGS DID A BETTER PART OF THE EARLY HEAVY LIFTING.
Don't let offspring of anti-Trump, anti-2A POS (D) FBI MFrs star in CNN post-Op and commentary Soros anti-gun "townhalls".
AND WAKE THE FV<K UP TO THE FACT THAT YOUR GOVERNMENT CAN'T PROTECT YOU, and that asking for someone to protect your kids in a school environment IS YOUR IGNORANT FAILURE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
People react differently to stress. I get really analytical and supress emotions. My ex got hysterical over little things like thinking she’d left her purse at the mall. No way I’d want her around a gun.
My biggest worry would be mistaking innocent noise for gunshots. I would like to think that I’d move to intervene with whatever weapon I could find and try to get the shooter from behind or when reloading. I’d go in assuming I could stop him but honestly id also be thinking what a great story I’d have for St Peter if I didn’t make it. We all are going to die. I’d rather die acting than with regrets.
I’ve been buying from FM for about five years now or so, usually online, but they have a retail shop nearby my house, too.
I’ve never had a problem with any of their remanufactured ammo in .223, 9mm, or .45acp. I’ve never used their new or hollow points in anything. Their .22lr and shotshells always seem expensive, though, so I buy elsewhere for those.
This is why I live in the blue grass state, Kentucky. GUNS, GUNS, GUNS!!!!!
The governor’s reliance on the police might be valid if they and the FBI had admirably accounted themselves. But, both the FBI and the Coward County Cops miserably failed any part of a real life test presented and allowed the deaths of 17.