“What’s the average age of the street thug you’re most likely to be confronted by? 22? I’m in my 60s. If I have to fight the thug hand to hand I’ll likely lose. Especially if he’s drug fueled. I will not look for a fight. I will avoid a fight. But if you bring the fight to me…..I will kill you. No arguments. No threats. No sabre rattling. I will kill you. And take a chance with the jury.” – TTAG Commentator JWM under the post The Most Important Non-Gun Thing You Can Do To Win A Gunfight
A dead threat still technically is a stopped threat.
Yeah, but……..
In Maryland, where I have the misfortune to live, the courts nearly ALWAYS find FOR the criminal and AGAINST the victim!
Kill the perp and face murder charges.
Injure the perp and be sued. [Kill the perp and be sued by his family for “wrongful death!”]
P.S.
The “average” street thug around here ranges from around 12 – 18 years old.
You need to start punching stone slabs. In a few months you will be able to punch through them or anyone. Find a reclusive and reluctant old master and he will train you.
Tomayto, tomahto.
“Stop the threat” is sanitized speak for “I will kill you.” I’ll stick with JWM’s original plain speak. If you shoot center mass, you have shot to kill. Either avoid the fight (best option) or shoot to kill. Period.
I differ. As for as defending yourself goes it is immaterial (in the immediate present) if you kill your attacker or not. If they function long enough to kill you you but they die after they mortally wound you it is a fail. If you incapacitate them with a non fatal shot it is a win. If I shoot someone I am hoping it stops but does not kill them. It is just a coincidence that COM shots are more likely to kill as well as incapacitate.
Shooting center mass introduces the odds variable that the first shot will kill, wound seriously, wound non-seriously, or miss entirely, but is the only logical shot to take despite those variables. So, be prepared to shoot again. Shooting multiple shots after an initial hit probably erodes your chances with a Jury. You have to decide about that for yourself. Nonetheless, you risk a fail or a win if ever you have to shoot and should never be naive about the possible outcomes of the shot. Still best to avoid the fight, if possible…
All that being said, I respect your point of view and comment.
Alot depends on how you train and who your instructor(s) is/are…..firing multiple times at one or more attackers during the initial attack is one thing ….once the “perp” is lying on the ground and clearly out of the fight and you take additional shots for good measure is another thing entirely…you will most likely be charged for murder(assuming the “perp” dies) and a jury most likely will convict…..there have been situations where cops have had to fire 13 or more rounds into a “drug fueled” attacker and he still came at them…and then there are instances where an attacker gets nicked by a defenders bullet drops his gun, turns and runs away…..no more follow up shots…he is no longer a threat….however be alert to the fact he may have a back-up gun and is re-fortifying his position to attack again….stay safe out there.
The most lethal shots you can take outside of the head and heart are the inner thigh followed closely by the upper arm. If you breach the femoral or brachial arteries there is a high probability that you will be dead before help arrives.
Pelvic area. Descending aorta and lots of arteries. The pelvic girdle is crucial to walking and standing upright. You simply cannot stand or walk with a shattered pelvis. And the bone shard shrapnel are likely to puncture one of those large arteries. And it hurts like hell.
I know a guy who practices by aiming for the groin- Everytime. He practices it so much he can’t not do it now. I guess he has his reasons.
I translate it as: “I am going to shoot you – repeatedly if necessary- until you are no longer a threat.”
That this may mean the threat has been killed rather than merely incapacitated is just a bonus.
I heard somewhere that your odds of surviving a single handgun shot to the torso is 70%, but with multiple shots it drops to 30%. Of course if you’re shot with a .357 magnum those numbers drop dramatically, I’m sure.
Everyone knows that the .45ACP will destroy your soul if you get shot with it.
Which is why the .45acp is useless against vampires.
Governor,
I know that 80% (give or take a few percent) of people with gunshot wounds survive.
Now, keep in mind that “gunshot wounds” include everything from trivial “wounds” (grazing shots) to head shots, from handguns, rifles, and shotguns. And the overwhelming majority of gunshot wounds are from handguns. Thus, your numbers sound incredibly reasonable based the above facts alone.
Plus, simple intuition tells me that two gunshot wounds to the torso would be much more devastating than a single wound.
Actually, a well placed .45ACp wil very quickly separate ones soul from their body.
The problem with 45 is it kills the soul, and I want that bastard to suffer in eternal hell fire.
Chiefton, so will a .22LR if we’re specifying well placed.
” I’ll stick with JWM’s original plain speak.”
The problem for JWM is, he’s in California.
That’s *not* friendly-jury country by any rational measure, and he’s mentioned coveted carry permits aren’t available where he lives.
If the prosecution does their due diligence and does an internet search on him in trial preparation (as is now pretty much standard), he’s gonna have him some serious problems on his hands in a courtroom.
That quote presented to a jury could prove very unhelpful for him in claiming self-defense.
Tell me I’m wrong, Mark N…
Unless we have no computer service who’s internet history can survive intense scrutiny nowadays?
*Someone* will rat you out… 🙁
It won’t be me, I didn’t see nothing… 🙂
In line with proper military training. I am currently teaching my wife the proper defensive use of a handgun. Dead center mass guarantees you the best chance of immobalizing the threat, even if they are wearing body armor, and if they are, being on target with the first shot gives you an advantage if they keep coming at you. Kevlar is only effective for stopping 1 or 2 rounds in the same area.
Two suggestions for the commentator:
Learn something about the law governing self defense. You don’t want to be convicted after what was basically a good shooting because you missed a detail that left you legally vulnerable. I recommend Andrew Branca’s book, The Law of Self Defense, and one of his six hour classes. He offers them online for $150. ($99 for the one next Saturday, February 3rd.)
Buy self defense legal insurance from a provider who pays in advance, rather than reimburses you after you are acquitted, and covers self defense by any method, not just firearms. (The NRA’s Carry Guard fails on the second requirement.)
The good news for JWM is, as I understand it, California has some surprisingly good ‘Castle Doctrine’-type law in place for self-defense in his home.
The difficulty may arise *outside* his property line…
My uncle is a retired lawyer and judge.. along with some great (and tested) advice for when you get pulled over on the road, he always told me that when you shoot someone crawling IN though your bedroom window, make darn sure he falls INTO the house. And never, ever aim to wound.
Using a club? fine, break some kneecaps. It takes more ‘skill’ to put someone down with a club than to just disable him. With a firearm, it is the other way around.
I wouldn’t follow that advice if it means moving the body. Of course, here in Texas, it doesn’t matter one lick whether they’re climbing through the window or just trying to break in.
yeah.. well he is in that bastion of liberalocity, Wisconsin. And retired. I’m out here in the DPRC and would probably get arrested for using harsh language.
USCCA seems to be the best, doing all the comparisons Covers even weapons of opportunity, any legal weapon and even inside of no weapons zones. .
Good to know. Got Carry Guard now but not adverse to changing. Not a big deal at time, but when signing up for Carry Guard they asked for effective date I wanted on form. I put that days date. Would not accept that. Had to be at earliest next day. Read later one of other insurances can start same day. Is this like buying a gun and waiting to pick it up? Cooling off period? And Carry Guard doesn’t cover your defense if you defend yourself with something other than firearm. Does National Knife Association sell insurance in case pistol jams and I have to pull knife and use it to defend my life?
Leave the knife in it’s holster. Hit the perp hard, on top of his head with your piece. If “Carry Guard” dictates you must use a firearm, then your covered.
No 22 year old thug is going to be deterred by the threat of ‘stopping’ them.
I’m with JWM. God help us…
A wounded threat is still a threat. A dead threat isn’t. Most people don’t want to kill someone, but if we PotG are left with no choice, we all know what we mean by stop the threat. The rest of that statement that goes unsaid is usually “by any means necessary”.
The number of thugs is increasing exponentially primarily because of naive liberal progressives and their support for open borders and unfettered lowlife procreation. Once a critical thug mass is achieved, there will be few convictions of violent criminals because of jury threatening and murder rates in the US will soar.
“I come in peace. I didn’t bring artillery. But I’m pleading with you, with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I’ll kill you all”-General Mattis
I do not bring artillery, but I fer damn shur bring the SR9c. The General speaks for me.
https://www.duffelblog.com/2017/12/army-tells-marine-corps-mattis-isnt-real/
Not too bad for a figment of Marines’ imaginations lol.
That was some funny sh!t!
Duffelblog is freakin hilarious yet true… Yes that study is correct.
https://www.duffelblog.com/2017/12/study-finds-firefight-96-3-more-likely-after-ear-pro-removed/
Oh and the Army really is trying to replace all its soldiers with velociraptors.
I think I really like ‘Duffel Blog’ :
“Soldiers accidentally summon Cthulhu after commander forgets to give weekend safety brief”
https://www.duffelblog.com/2017/12/soldiers-accidentally-summon-cthulhu-after-commander-forgets-to-give-safety-brief/
*snicker*
I’m of the school of thought that states “shoot center mass until the threat catches fire, changes shape, or ceases to be a threat… then shoot two more times just to be sure.”
Gotta love Mad Dog though.
“Be polite be professional but have a plan to kill everyone you meet.”
I don’t know about you guys, but I want to hang out with JWM.
” I want to hang out with JWM.”
So do I, here in Florida or with you in Mass.
Pretty much in 40+ of the states…
Now that we’ve established intent to kill, the rest will be easy for the jury. SOME THINGS ARE BETTER LEFT UNSAID. I don’t intend to kill anybody. I intend to stop any threat to my life. If that person decides to die, oh well. Former medic, RN, I have medical symbols on my carry guns. Should anybody ask, they’re medical instruments. If in my professional opinion somebody has demonstrated a need for a HOT LEAD ENEMA, I’ll oblige.
I prefer the term “high-speed lead therapy” over your phraseology.
I’m with you!
If a jury knows, or suspects that you intended to “kill” your attacker, they will remember that when it comes time for a vote.
Have a friend who works insanely long hours, who was recently approached depositing his paycheck at an ATM by two thugs in hoodies. He had his head on a swivel, and was fortunate enough to be able to draw his Glock 43, and paint the closest thug’s chest with an aftermarket Crimson Trace laser before they were close enough to make contact. He said they were about 10 steps away when the closest thug saw the laser on his chest. The farthest thug bolted immediately, and he said the closest thug took two more steps before he realized what the laser on his chest meant, and bolted too.
Not having been there, I won’t second guess my friend’s decision not to fire until the thug was closer. I’ve shot many times with him, and he is both quick, and a dead shot. For myself, I believe I would have fired as soon as I had my front sight on the thug’s center of mass, but once again, I wasn’t there in the middle of that situation.
Had my buddy not been armed, one thing is certain — the odds of him walking away from that situation unharmed would have been slim, and none.
MDH,
Based on your description of your friend’s encounter, I do not believe that he was justified to use deadly force.
Yes, I know that sucks because it means that we can be in INSANELY vulnerable positions sometimes. That is the problem with violent criminals: they always have the advantage.
The simple fact of the matter is that two people with hooded sweatshirts quietly approaching you at an ATM could be walking up to the ATM to use their card and withdraw money.
He didn’t say they were quietly approaching. He told me ‘ they just showed up out of nowhere’, calling out that they were homeless and needed money, running their heads, and making a bee line for him. He said they were dressed like thugs, not like homeless.
Don’t know where you live, but people die at ATMs here.
I Trust that my buddy made the best decision he could, and like I said, I’m not second guessing him, or arm chair quarterbacking his decision.
That’s not the entire statement I made. We were talking about physical fitness and its part in self defense. I’ve lost 80 pounds without doing the yo-yo thing. I work out every day and have an active, outdoors life. I started a new hobby, archery, just last week.
But I have no delusions. I’m in my 60s. I have fought. In military and civilian terms. And I realize that I’m at a severe disadavantage against even a single 20 something attacker in a hands on fight.
I stand by my entire statement.
WRT your comment that if it comes to it, “no arguments, no threats, no saber-rattling,” I note that this is consistent with the Wit and Wisdom of the philosopher Tuco Benedicto Pacifico Juan Maria Ramirez:
https://youtu.be/UjVUn_1nqDY
My wife loves that movie and that character. She recites that line all the time.
It is a great line, but a black powder revolver in a bath tub Is unlikely to reliably go bang. Love the old Eastwood westerns!
Welp down the rabbit hole I go now researching all the characters in the Dollars trilogy.
And I’ll second it jwm. I too am in my 60’s and no longer have a desire to fight anyone but, if you bring it to me, I’ll do my best to end it. I plan on seeing my grandkids haves kids!
65, cancer survivor, worked in a prison for way too long, walk with a limp, can’t run. A dirt bags dream, except I carry. Always. As John Wayne said, “Some people just need shootin.”
From a legal perspective, you shouldn’t say something like that, especially in an actual shooting situation. Also from a legal standpoint, it’s better to have one less adverse witness. It’s also generally cheaper to kill someone than cripple them if you are civilly liable.
You are “right on”
Dead men tell no tales!
JWM is spot-on.
Love me some Tuco.
Note that the revolvers used cased ammo, not cap & ball. They were based on conversions I believe. I am still considering having my Walker Colt converted to .45 LC. However, 10mm being what it is…
Don’t ruin a walker with a conversion cylinder. You will lose a lot of power since you have to use low pressure cowboy loads. Convert a Remy ’58 new army. Same .45 LC cowboy. I like howell’s, but some people just have to have the loading gate…
I agree with the Article, being a biased old Vet, I have neither the time nor energy to dance a few round with a young guy. Once a life threatening threat registers, at that point Everything is up for grabs because I will Kill the threat. and take my chance with twelve!
Yep!
better to be judged by 12, than carried by 8
I thought it was carried by six. We must be getting fat.
The dead guy was 7′ 9″ tall, or should I say long at this point, 10 ft coffin, took two extra dudes.
That’ll do it.
Bunch of y’all talking about how you’re still going to “shoot to kill” and keep using “plain language” and all that.
First, I’d wager that most of you don’t understand what it is to fire a weapon at someone. I do, in the US and outside of the US. It’s not what you all think it is.
Second, it doesn’t matter what you do or how you shoot, but when the cops show up, you’d better get smart and NOT start saying “I shot to kill”. If you do, have fun in court.
I swear that some of you internet bad asses are just a bunch of wannabe macho morons.
I usually do right wrist, left wrist shoot. Then left knee, right knee and follow up shot to both pinky fingers.
If threat not stopped I then run home and call 912.