Swiss Voters Approve EU-Style Gun Control Laws

swiss gun control law referendum EU schengen

Meeting rooms and a poster of the committee against the EU gun laws and policies, prior to the committee’s meeting in Burgdorf, Switzerland, Sunday, May 19, 2019. Swiss voters clearly accepted EU’s stricter gun control at the national ballot. (Peter Schneider/Keystone via AP)

As some of you may know, the European Union’s Directive on Firearms has been implemented in the Schengen Agreement member countries for three years now. While Switzerland isn’t an EU member, the country is a part of the Schengen agreement, which largely abolishes border controls within Europe.

The EU used Switzerland’s Schengen membership as leverage to pressure the Swiss to vote for EU-style gun controls. Yesterday, the Swiss voted 2:1 to adopt the EU-style restrictions on gun ownership.

As reported by the New York Times;

The referendum proposition was hotly debated in Switzerland, which has maintained compulsory military service and has a long tradition of marksmanship, including what is billed as the world’s largest annual shooting competition.

The government had warned voters that Switzerland, which is not a member of the European Union but follows many of its rules, could lose its membership in the Schengen area — which allows free movement among 26 European countries — if it rejected stricter gun rules.

Polls closed at midday local time, and the final results showed that almost 64 percent voted in favor of tighter gun controls, in line with what opinion polls had predicted. Only the citizens of the Italian-speaking region of Switzerland rejected the gun initiative.

The Swiss government sold the referendum, telling voters that it had negotiated exceptions to the law.

The Swiss Parliament approved the new rules last September. But firearms and hunting lobbyists and associations, with the support of the right-wing Swiss People’s Party, campaigned to force a national referendum.

The true story is that there is no exceptions and that the new law turns the right to own semi-automatic firearms a privilege linked to an activity (sport, collection, etc).

All semi-automatic handguns holding more than 20 rounds and rifles holding more than 10 rounds will go into the restricted category, which will now only be accessible with government approval.

(Peter Schneider/Keystone via AP)

All firearms once legally owned will now need to be declared and added to the EU-wide registry. Assuming full compliance (a big if) that means every Swiss gun owner will be known to all EU law enforcement agencies, with a list of who owns what firearms.

This law is supposed to be tightened by parliamentary vote in two years and then every five years afterwards if there is no sign that it has stopped terrorism or criminal acts. And since this will do nothing against terrorism, and terrorism will still happen, it will be tightened.

ProTell, Switzerland’s Pro Gun Organization (which I’m a member of) opposed the new law and fought hard against it.

They collected 125,000 petition signatures within three months to force a national referendum on this in hopes that the public would reject what the parliament had already passed. They wanted to counter (as my friends in the Alps put it) “the treasonous acts of their government and parliament”.

Courtesy – ProTell

Only the conservative Swiss People’s Party (SVP) supported the referendum, and they have only about 35% of the vote in Switzerland. That meant in order to win, they needed about 15% of the centrist public to vote in favor of keeping the new law off the books.

Alas, almost 64% of voters in Sunday’s referendum supported tougher restrictions on semi-automatic and automatic weapons. The Swiss people have the highest rates of firearm ownership in Europe (close to 48% of homes have a firearm), but it wasn’t enough.

Election Results by Canton

The SVP have voiced concern about how the gun control laws would affect Swiss national sovereignty.

“By approving stricter gun control, Switzerland has given in to pressure by the E.U.,” Lukas Reimann of the People’s Party told the local public broadcaster.

Soon, shooting ranges in Switzerland will no longer look like this:

Shooting range of a Swiss shooting society. SIG SG 550 rifles are shown. Rama [CC BY-SA 2.0 fr], via Wikimedia Commons

To my friends across the pond and in the Alps, my heart is with you. We here in the Land of Liberty aren’t fairing much better in some states.

comments

  1. avatar jay y says:

    “This year will go down in history. For the first time, a civilized nation has full gun registration. Our streets will be safer, our police more efficient, and the world will follow our lead into the future!”
    -ADOLF HITLER

    “Ordinary citizens don’t need guns, as their having guns doesn’t serve the State.” ~ Heinrich Himmler.
    1938 – Germany disarmed its citizens, and between 1939 – 1945 they murdered 6 million German Jews and 7million Gentiles

    1. avatar million says:

      Registration was passed in 1928 by the Weimar Republic with good intentions: to stop the nazis and communists from killing each other in the streets with guns. The communists tried to fight the law and were crushed by the police. The nazis took control after gaining popular support for their brand of nationalism. Over the next 15 years, using the Weimar Republic’s registration lists and passing their own gun control laws, they disarmed “enemies of the state” (union workers, communists, Catholics, gypsies, and Jews) and gave us The Holocaust.

      1. avatar Jonathan-Houston says:

        Thr Nazis won all of about 37% of the vote on 1932, compared to von Hindenburg’s 53%. Hindenburg reluctantly appointed Hitler as Chancellor. After the election, Hindenburg nullified civil liberties, then died, leaving Hitler a fresh dictatorship to run with and never holding free elections again.

        None of that constituted the Nazis ever having won popular support for their socialist agenda.

        1. avatar million says:

          The Nazi’s nationalism was popular enough.

        2. avatar Chris says:

          The Nazi’s nationalism was popular enough.

          Virtually all European countries were as nationalistic at the time.

          Nationalism at the time was how the big countries with empires asserted their international dominance, including France and England. And nationalism is what small counties in Europe used to get out of dominance and repression by Russian, Austro Hungarian and Ottoman Empires .

          nationalism did not set the nazis apart or make them relatively evil — STATISM is what did, a different arguing point that the Communists used to get to statism but still the main (shared) evil.

      2. avatar John in Ohio says:

        Gun control never is born of good intentions except to the completely naive. No good can come of it. Human history bears this fact out.

      3. avatar martin jones says:

        It is astonishing that the “feel good” emotion happens after doing something stupid.

    2. avatar arc says:

      That pesky six million figure just won’t give up the ghost.

      1. avatar JOhn says:

        Indeed

        1. avatar Armed Partisan says:

          …because maths.

    3. avatar EWTHeckman says:

      The first quote is fake. (See gunfire.com) I don’t know about the second.

      1. avatar EWTHeckman says:

        Stupid autocorrect. That should be guncite.com

        1. avatar Chris says:

          Agreed. We need to be careful We know the Japaneses were worried about the breadth of firearm ownership in the US, but the use of the fake every blade of grass quote diminishes that argument.

          What we do know is
          1) the nazis used the ill advised general gun control in Germany to disarm opponents and arm their own criminal gangs.
          2) the first Nazis did thing in any country they rolled into either from appeasement or conquest was to disarm the populace before putting them under the heel or outright murdering them.
          3) that a) historically places with broadly armed citizenry, like Greece during the invention of democracy, or Rome when it was a realistically democratic republic were less tyrannical than contemporaries and b) the most tyrannical regimes were those where arms were a monopoly among elites.

  2. avatar Rheopectic says:

    Thought the Swiss were smarter than this.

    You’ll be soooorrrrrrry!

    1. avatar Southern Cross says:

      The EU had them over a barrel with customs requirements (visas to visit other EU countries), more red tape in security matters, and trade restrictions.

      But the Swiss will comply in their own way making all reservists approved people.

      1. avatar Val says:

        All firearms once legally owned will now need to be declared and added to the EU-wide registry. Assuming full compliance (a big if) that means every Swiss gun owner will be known to all EU law enforcement agencies, with a list of who owns what firearms.

        The whole thing bothers me, but this especially is chilling…. Switzerland is not part of the EU, why would they have these lists?

  3. avatar former water walker says:

    Dumbazzes…goodbye guns. Hello moose-lims😩

    1. avatar guest says:

      English.

  4. avatar Timothy Toroain says:

    We will be the last bastion of real freedom on earth. Maybe we should tell the EU if it wants to sell its products here gun laws have to change. Why on earth should a dumbassed Frenchman know which of the Swiss own guns? If the U.N ever tries that crap we should throw it the hell out of the country and that each country will have to deal with us individually because we no longer recognize it.

    1. avatar Ves1 says:

      Obama had signed the UN agreement, but the part where we had register our firearms was NOT finalized, as we were waiting on Congress to review or ratify the UN treaty. Thank God in this case they did nothing, so that is what Trump did at the NRA convention recently, signed an executive order to get us out of the UN treaty. I believe that is the time line and correct document names.

      Thanks Barry trying to disarm us, THANK GOD Donald J. Trump got us out of it!

      1. avatar Erik Weisz says:

        Amen.

      2. avatar Tiger says:

        Like I said in post yesterday in the town hall for Pete Butplug. Trump is a bit like U.S. Grant. You may not like his style, but he fights……

        1. avatar Hannibal says:

          Sure fought on that whole bump stock issue, alright

          remember what side he fought for?

        2. avatar John says:

          FFS Hannibal give it up.

      3. avatar sparkyinWI says:

        If that UN treaty was so critical and it was that important for us to get out of it then answer this. Why did our protector of gun rights wait until 2019 to sign this executive order? Oh wait the election cycle is just about upon us and he needs the gun people’s votes and money again. So he finds a tidbit to toss our way. So Trump gets no real credit for this. He waited 3 yrs to do it and it had no chance at this time for Senate review.

        1. avatar Tiger says:

          Whine and moan if you wish. The 20 candidates other side of the fence are offering what exactly? Half a loaf vs. No bread. Your choice?

        2. avatar CWT says:

          Considering he has been going through the political version of a cavity search for the last two years?

  5. avatar Maxpowers says:

    And this will have no effect on criminals or terror groups from arming up. I recall something from long ago from EU thing which admitted there were far more illegal weapons in circulation that legal. Wanna bet these illegal weapons are leftovers from the 1st and 2nd world war, the cold war, weapons smuggled from wartorn or rouge nation’s and weapons stolen from police and military armories.

    1. avatar Tiger says:

      Case in point. Libya. Since 2011, and the fall of Gadaff; the arsenals were looted and send to Syria and Yemen.

  6. avatar Chris T in KY says:

    How long will it be before the first terrorist rents a truck and drives over 80 or more people in a Swiss city?

    I think Europeans are flat-out stupid. With the possible exceptions of the Poles the Hungarians and the Czechs. I don’t know about Poland or Hungary but the Czechs have rights to handguns. And all three believe in protecting their national borders. And National sovereignty.
    I think Finland is good on guns as well.

    1. avatar Chris T in KY says:

      BTW
      Original Star Trek series “A Taste of Armageddon”. A society simply walks into suicide Chambers when told to do so by their government. That’s exactly what the Europeans are going to do now. Turn in your guns and Just walk right into a gas chamber and smile when they’re told to do so by their own government, instead of a foreign Invader like germany. Telling them to do it.

  7. avatar Gadsden Flag says:

    Sigh! Even Switzerland. Everyone is drinking the kool-aid.

    1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

      Gadsden Flag,

      The mental process for Swiss voters is astoundingly simple:
      (1) No one has attacked Switzerland for 200+ years.
      (2) Swiss people do not expect an attack in the foreseeable future.
      (3) Therefore Swiss people do not need to own firearms.

      Of course such a mental process totally ignores world history and the propensity of human predators to prey on weak humans. As the Swiss will eventually find out, giving up your firearms is a mistake that you only get to make once.

  8. avatar Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:

    I wonder the the vote breakdown male vs. female voter is.

    1. avatar jwtaylor says:

      The Swiss stopped caring about most things decades ago. The percentage of the voting public is down to less than 50% in most elections. Women didn’t get the right to vote until 1971, and not nation-wide until 1991. Gender is usually split, with a slight male advantage. More young women vote than young men, more older men vote than older women, and more older people vote in general.

      I have no reason to care about the foolish decisions of what is essentially a city-state. The entire country has about the same population as NYC. The Swiss are irrelevant.

      1. avatar Clark Kent says:

        They are not irrelevant to the Swiss. Generalize much?

        1. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Well since the Swiss themselves just further voted their own irrelevancy, I guess, no, not too much.

        2. avatar Clark Kent says:

          The vote was about firearms legislation, not relevancy. Nice try; no cigar.

        3. avatar Baldwin says:

          “All semi-automatic handguns holding more than 20 rounds and rifles holding more than 10 rounds will go into the restricted category, which will now only be accessible with government approval.” When you need permission to be relevant….you are no longer relevant.

  9. avatar Jim Warren says:

    Can’t feel bad for them if 64% voted for it.

    1. avatar Mao the Dung says:

      You don’t feel sorry for the 36%? Who is gonna feel sorry for you?

      1. avatar Jim Warren says:

        The 36% can commiserate and talk about the old days, before two out of three of their friends, neighbors, and family turned their backs.

  10. avatar rc says:

    We shouldn’t be smug about this…this (or much worse) is exactly what the anti-gunners have in store here. The Democrats will get another shot at power in about 6 years and may well pull it off. If they do, this is what is coming to us, no doubt about it. I feel terrible for the ProTell and the Swiss gun community…hundreds of years of shooting culture and excellence is about to be snuffed out. But their gun owners will fight back.

    1. avatar jwtaylor says:

      Sadly, they won’t. I’m surprised even 36% voted against it. The Swiss are not who they used to be.

      1. avatar Clark Kent says:

        Stick to predicting lottery numbers; you will have better luck.

        1. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Being right isn’t just luck. It takes observation and intelligence. Maybe take a screen shot of that, or write it down. Then at least you’d have half of the equation.

        2. avatar Clark Kent says:

          Since you are incorrect that speaks volumes about YOUR observation and intelligence skills. Nice try; no cigar.

        3. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Did you just use the “I know you are but what am I” argument?Are you 4?

      2. avatar Tiger says:

        Nor are we……. Long term, the days of status quo are fading. 64% of Ameriica would vote the same down the road.

        1. avatar John in Ohio says:

          Exactly. Exercise of the unalienable individual right to keep and bear arms will lose generationally if it isn’t stopped in it’s tracks and reversed in a single generation. Most governments are too long lived to fight past a few generations. Government controls education, the judiciary, and arguably the media to some extent. Those are social indoctrination points that play a large part in the increased acceptance of tyranny over time.

  11. avatar WI Patriot says:

    No sympathies for them, they’ll soon rue the day they voted to approve this…

    1. avatar burley says:

      probably not. Most people who give up their own freedom for *anything else* don’t ever blame themselves, it’s always someone elses fault.

  12. avatar million says:

    i would say these laws sound better in the original German.. but these are already written in German.

  13. avatar Manse Jolly says:

    Like the range set up!

    Highspeedius.

    1. avatar Geoff "I'm getting too old for this shit" PR says:

      “Like the range set up!”

      “Relentlessly Swiss”

  14. avatar million says:

    “the only noteworthy item is the exceedingly serious fights in Warsaw between the police and even a part of our Wehrmacht on the one hand and the rebellious Jews on the other. The Jews have actually succeeded in making a defensive position of the Ghetto. Heavy engagements are being fought there…. It shows what is to be expected of the Jews when they are in possession of arms.”

    The Goebbels Diaries: 1942-1943, ed. and trans. Louis P Lochner (Garden City, NY: Doubleday, 1948), 350-51.

  15. avatar SurfGW says:

    Sad to see the safe nation of Switzerland peer pressured into policies of their high-crime neighbors such as France and Germany.

  16. avatar YaYa says:

    “… pressure the Swiss to vote for EU-style gun controls.”
    You wack jobs IT WAS A VOTE. Would you be happier if it was shoved down their throats without choice. Obviously the Swiss majority wanted it this way, it may not be what EVERYONE wants but that is how voting works. To worry how other countries gun laws are going to affect American gun owners…perhaps justified paranoia?

    1. avatar jwm says:

      So if 51% of the voters in any given turnout in the US decides we don’t need the internet? After it was a vote and the majority won.

      How about civil rights laws. 51% can kick them to the curb? Majority wins again.

      Majority rule is mob rule and it is not justice or fair.

      1. avatar Adolph Hitler says:

        I agree. People need to be told what to like.

        1. avatar Arc says:

          Thats why the MSM is so successful.

          Thinking is painful, but if you make people think they are thinking, they will love you.

    2. avatar w. berry says:

      They voted for the lesser of two evils. There is always something extra attached. This time it was open borders.

      1. avatar Rick the Bear says:

        That’s an interesting, if sad, perspective.

    3. avatar Someone says:

      In 1938 97.32% of the adult population of Sudetenland (part of Czechoslovakia anexed by Hitler earlier that year) voted for National Socialist German Workers’ Party. Almost 100% of voters agreed that nazis are great! Peer pressure and media propaganda brainwashing makes people vote for all kinds of dumb crap.

  17. avatar Alternator says:

    Morons.

  18. avatar HellBelly says:

    And at the end of it all, the caliphate will sit on the iron throne.

    1. avatar jwtaylor says:

      At The End of it all, there will be no caliphate.

      1. avatar uncommon_sense says:

        Mr. Taylor,

        Please explain.

        Muslims are reproducing a LOT faster than Europeans and it is only a matter of time before Muslims outnumber “traditional” Europeans in Europe. When that happens, I am absolutely convinced that all those Muslims will take off the mask, implement Islam and Sharia law, and begin their Allah-ordained directive of subjugating or killing all the infidels.

        Where am I wrong?

        1. avatar jwtaylor says:

          You are wrong in a couple of places, the first thinking that there is some Muslim hive mind bent on killing the infidels.

          But the second is that, in the End, Jesus Christ will come again and God will set a new heaven and a new Earth, and the caliphate will no longer exist.

        2. avatar EnDangerEd says:

          There are those, who, when faced with dissolution will “push the button”. Icicles aren’t muslim or Christian, just frozen. I wonder how long a Nuclear Winter lasts?

        3. avatar Sprocket says:

          One need only look at every muslim majority country on the planet, muslim birth rates in Europe, and opinion polling of muslims in western countries to know Europe’s goose is cooked. People, other than leftists, had no problem identifying communism as an evil and oppressive ideology. Somehow, wrapping an ideology in religion clouds people’s judgement to an extraordinary degree.

        4. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Mr. Taylor,

          You are wrong … that there is some Muslim hive mind bent on killing the infidels.

          We have to be very careful how we portray this sentiment.

          Do all — meaning 100% — of Muslims want to subjugate/kill infidels? Of course not. There are always adherents in any faith/religion who are blasé (lukewarm) and do not support positions with intense requirements/consequences.

          The relevant question: will Muslims who advocate subjugating/killing infidels institutionalize such activity in Muslim countries (whether through overt laws or on the down-low with clandestine government approval)? We have a lot of history and precedent that strongly say, “yes.”

          While I would love to be wrong on this matter, I fear that I am correct.

        5. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Mr. Taylor,

          I agree that, ultimately, God will end any caliphate on earth.

          Until that happens, the Bible directs us to resist evil. And we have to recognize evil before we can figure out how to resist it.

        6. avatar jwtaylor says:

          uncommon_sense,
          I’ve had this discussion over and over here on TTAG. Your view does not match my experience. I’ve lived and worked in many Muslim majority countries. I have never hid my own Christian religious views. I have prayed publicly, and held services publicly in several of those countries, as well as in areas of Israel that are primarily occupied by Muslims. Although I have had some Muslims try real hard to kill many, and some have injured me, I have also had Muslims fight to the death against them, right there beside me. I have had Muslims put their own lives at risk to protect me specifically. Some were particularly religious men. Some were not. But to be crystal clear, Muslim men specifically fought against other Muslim men because they did not want their country brought under a radical version of Sharia law. Some of these men were even of the same tribe, although that was pretty rare. But that’s not theory. That’s what really happened, and what really happens every day in the real world. That’s reality. People who don’t want non-believers murdered for being non-believers are, and will continue to fight against those that do. Some give their lives for it.

          Beyond that, of the Muslims that knew me, lived with me, and knew my faith, literally every single one of them treated that faith with more respect than almost any of the Christians I know. I see Christians throw their Bible in the back of their car. When praying over their dead, something many would request of me, the Muslim men I knew would always cover the Bible with a scarf and hand it to me with two hands, respectfully. I taught the men of the 3-2 205th Afghan Infantry Kankak the “Hail Mary” and many would say it prior to patrols, since they had a great respect for the mother of Jesus, who they respected as a prophet of God.

          There’s a billion Muslims in the world. If they all wanted a radical version of Sharia law and the death of the infidels, or would even permit it, the world would be a very different place. The reality is that this is a tiny majority, and the largest demographic fighting against them is still other Muslims.

        7. avatar Joe says:

          Sorry, but I would not trust a Muslim any farther than I could throw them. Their own bible instructs them to lie to the enemy. Aka, non-Muslims. They have to “play nice” and be friendly when they are a minority. But once they out populate the area they are in, then the mask falls off, and they are not-so-nice. There is no such thing as a “moderate” Muslim. And those that think they are do not know their own religion very well, or they are only fooling themselves to the realities of the political system (disguised as a religion) they are submitted to. Others may decide to trust them. But perhaps I have lived with, ang grew up with, enough liars and deceivers, that trusting anyone is akin to hell freezing over.

        8. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Mr. Taylor,

          Thank you for the detailed account of your experience. It certainly provides a perspective that many of us (including myself) have never heard and I am glad that you had many positive interactions with Muslims.

          I will continue to be incredibly wary of Muslims. The fact remains that their “holy” book commands them to subjugate/kill infidels and there are countless credible reports of Muslims bearing “bad fruit” (in the Biblical sense, which is not just limited to slavery/murder). Whether their “holy” book actually inspires or is nothing more than justification for their “bad fruit” is neither here nor there. Bad fruit is bad fruit and it shows whether people are trying to do good or bad unto others, regardless of what faith/religion they claim.

        9. avatar jwtaylor says:

          uncommon_sense,
          The words of Christ as accounted in Matthew are exactly why I don’t condem all Muslims.
          “Good fruit does not come from a bad tree.”
          Ive seen some Muslims do brave, kind things. If this is good fruit, then the tree is not bad.

        10. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Mr. Taylor,

          Ive seen some Muslims do brave, kind things. If this is good fruit, then the tree is not bad.

          Agreed.

        11. avatar jwtaylor says:

          uncommon sense,
          Thank you for setting a great example by discussing a differing opinion on a divisive topic while remaining thoughtful, intelligent, and polite.

        12. avatar John in Ohio says:

          The very foundations of islam means that the “bad tree” is the apostate. The “good tree” is raised and instructed that they will eventually have to subdue the kafir. Islam is one of those rare religions that cannot be reformed without completely gutting it. That’s no surprise since it was started by a narcissistic gold digging pedophile sociopath, piss be upon him. The bottom line is that “moderate” muslims are not really muslims at all by their own religion’s definitions.

        13. avatar jwtaylor says:

          John in Ohio, hundreds of millions of Muslims would disagree with you.

        14. avatar John in Ohio says:

          jwtaylor, I can appreciate that and it would’ve said the same thing no more than six months ago. I have since come to really understand the religion, listening to ex-muslims, and realize that not only is there absolutely nothing redeeming about islam, but it is dangerous at its very core. The foundations of islam are clear that those who claim to be muslim but do not follow are apostate and are condemned to death. Those who do not claim to be muslim are kafir and are condemned to death.

          There are those who do not really understand islam, claiming to be muslim, and those who know full well what it is about and lie to kafir about it. I can call myself a ham and cheese sandwich all day long but that doesn’t make me one. Those from the former group are dangerous because they add to the naive acceptance of islam and those from the latter group are dangerous because they will kill the kafir when the time is right.

        15. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “but are relying on other people’s opinions which you have garnered through videos on the internet. ”

          I am relying on the qu’ran itself and the earliest canonical islamic scholars. That has been made abundantly clear and proven early on in this discussion. Acting like a child and repeating the same thing doesn’t make it so.

      2. avatar Docduracoat says:

        Mr Taylor,
        That was a fascinating story about teaching Afghans to say the Hail Mary prayer before battle. You posts are always well spoken and I would love to hear more about your adventures with Muslims fighting against strict Sharia law.
        As uncommon sense said, I am extremely wary of allowing a large Moslem
        Minority to develop here in the U.S.
        Every country seems to have problems when moslems move in in large number.
        Every Moslem majority country is a horrible place for non Moslems.
        So while the Kurds for instance crushed ISIS with our help, I think Europe is committing cultural suicide with large scale Moslem immigration.
        And the Swiss have taken the first sip of the kool aid by voting this first step to disarmament.
        And this from the country that used to allow citizens to take their assault rifle home after army service!

        1. avatar jwtaylor says:

          My biggest change in opinion happened when I was speaking to one of our interpreters. He was a young man, but fairly religious in Afghan terms. Most of the Muslims I spoke with in Afghanistan didn’t even know what the 5 Pillars were, I knew far more about their religion than they did. He would have an occasional sip of Vodka or a cigar, but he generally knew his Quoran and prayed 5 times a day.
          This young man was from a well off family and was educated in England. He didn’t have to come back to Afghanistan. He could have lived in England as a refugee. He intentionally returned to his country to fight the Taliban.
          I asked him why. I asked him, does he expect an American style democracy? Does he want one? His reply was the essence of what made my own country free.
          He said, “I just want the Afghan people to be able to decide what they want, how they will live. Not the thugs.” (or something very close to that, that was 9 years ago) He was willing to die in that effort. Less than a year later, he did.
          He was the first to make me think that perhaps there was a larger Muslim resistance to radicalism than I thought. The more time I spent with Muslims, the more people I found felt just as he did.
          I have also spent time in Muslims countries where is was not horrible to be a non-Muslim at all. In fact, if Isis or the Taliban was not immediately present, this was most of them.

        2. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          Mr. Taylor,

          Humor me with this interesting thought …

          Two possible explanations occurred to me to explain your experiences:
          (1) God drives some Muslims to restrain Islam and prevent a Hellish existence for mankind.
          (2) Some Muslims are righteous in spite of the message of their “holy” book.

          To clarify possible explanation number (2), those Muslims are ignorant of the Gospel (or the reliability of the Gospel) and, not having any other revelation available, try to follow Islam’s “revelation”. And yet they are humble, they desire what is good, and the Holy Spirit dwells within them — compelling them to reject what God abhors in their “holy” book. This gets interesting because the Holy Spirit can only dwell within people who are saved through Christ’s atonement. Perhaps these Muslims are modern day equivalents of the Ethiopian eunuch who asked Philip to baptize him in Acts chapter 8?

        3. avatar jwtaylor says:

          Uncommon sense, man that is a hard one, because I don’t want to be the person who claims to understand the Holy Spirit, and who it resides in and works through.
          I know that love joy peace patience kindness goodness and faithfulness are fruits of the spirit, but my own experience has shown me that many of those who profess another Faith, or no faith at all are abundant in those fruits.
          That is a mystery that I do not understand.
          I do understand Christ clear command that I love my neighbor. It is the most difficult of all of the 11 Commandments. I should find it easy, but I don’t find it easy to love my Muslim neighbor, my gay neighbor, my atheist neighbor, my racist neighbor, and the list goes on.
          But he told me to love my neighbor, and he told me to go and tell. So, Duty First.

          Oh, but on the Koran telling Muslims to kill infidels, I’d like you to go and read those full verses again. A second or third reading sometimes shows us something we didn’t see before, in this instance that it does not in fact say kill infidels, but idolators.
          So good Baptists are going to be okay, but Catholics might need to watch their back.
          (Forgive me, inside Baptist joke.)

        4. avatar uncommon_sense says:

          jwtaylor,

          The only problem with that reading of the Koran: Muslims can define just about any demographic to be idolaters — including people who “worship” Jesus on a cross (people who have Jesus on a cross in their churches or home).

          And therein lies the beauty of the Gospel which does NOT order us to kill people who reject the Gospel. The Bible tells us in the Old Testament that, for a time, God ordered the death penalty as a punishment for blasphemy, rape, adultery, sodomy, and murder. And the Bible tells us that God graciously allows us to use deadly force if absolutely necessary in self-defense. But nowhere does the Bible command us to seek out and kill anyone for rejecting the faith.

        5. avatar jwtaylor says:

          uncommon sense, very, very few Muslims take that verse to mean that you have to kill anyone because of their lack of faith. When you read the full text, the interpretation that it is a command to kill all the believers is quite a stretch.

        6. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “When you read the full text, the interpretation that it is a command to kill all the believers is quite a stretch.”

          With all serious respect, JWT; that is your opinion. Here are some facts.

        7. avatar jwtaylor says:

          John in Ohio, I didn’t watch the second video and stopped watching the first when it became obviously dishonest and unfair. When someone who claims to be studying Islam doesn’t even mention the concepts of mercy or forgiveness central to most Muslims, they’re just trying to reinforce their ignorance. There’s not a student of the Koran out there that won’t quote you, “show mercy to those on earth and the Most Merciful will show mercy to you.”

        8. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “John in Ohio, I didn’t watch the second video and stopped watching the first when it became obviously dishonest and unfair.”

          Then you are sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling, “I’m not listening!” The man is an accredited scholar. He presents facts and evidence. The second man has been a muslim all of his life until he wised up. Both have a lot to teach you. I can lead you to water but cannot make you drink. I have great respect for many of the values you uphold and verbalize. However, what you are essentially choosing is to stand behind your own relatively uneducated opinions whilst ignoring factual, sourced information available to you. If you seriously seek the truth from just those two YouTube channels (and even Acts17Apologetics website), I can at least respect your opinion on the subject. When you refuse to even investigate the truth in earnest, I can only presume that you are comfortable in your ignorance and are afraid of challenging your views on the matter. That is a pity.

        9. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “when it became obviously dishonest and unfair.”

          Please post a timestamp where that happened so I can review it for myself. If it is dishonest and unfair, I will be more than happy to concede such. However, without knowing any specifics, nobody reading has any way of knowing if you are posting from bias (what you want to be true because of your experiences and opinions) or from fact.

        10. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “When someone who claims to be studying Islam doesn’t even mention the concepts of mercy or forgiveness central to most Muslims, they’re just trying to reinforce their ignorance.”

          The way this reads is that he did not say what you wanted to hear so you will dismiss any evidence he, as a scholar, has to present and completely refuse to examine any evidence from the other man, a former life-long muslim. These videos are topic based. That means that not every video is going to say everything that you might think ought to be stated. The title and topic of the video in question is, “Qur’an in Context 1: “Fight Those Who Do Not Believe” (9:29).” That doesn’t necessarily mean that he will “even mention the concepts of mercy or forgiveness central to most Muslims” if it is not part of the evidence pertinent to the topic. The facts, IMHO, prove that islam is certainly not about mercy or forgiveness. You may feel it is important that what you believe is central to “most muslims.” But, that might not be what is factually important when discussing qu’ran 9:29 in context. You are asserting that the concepts of mercy or forgiveness are central to most muslims. You don’t present facts that they are muslims if they don’t follow islam. Further, you don’t present facts that most self-identified muslims actually hold those concepts as central. They are assertions based upon your opinions alone and not based upon presented facts. Instead, the videos present factual evidence that islam does not hold those concepts as central. Indeed, they demonstrate the opposite is true. Essentially, it seems like you stated, “He didn’t say what I wanted him to say or thought that he should so I won’t listen to his evidence.” There’s nowhere to go from there, my friend.

        11. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “There’s not a student of the Koran out there that won’t quote you, “show mercy to those on earth and the Most Merciful will show mercy to you.””

          I have presented TWO students of the qu’ran who, video after video, debate after debate, give facts showing islam promotes the complete opposite of that quote out of context. Mohamed was a gold-digging narcissistic sociopath pedophile from the 7th century who invented a damnable Arab empire of hate, intolerance, and genocide; may piss be upon him. Islam is dangerous to liberty and all things righteous. It cannot be redeemed.

        12. avatar John in Ohio says:

          The truth shall set you free.

        13. avatar John in Ohio says:

          Would you prefer to watch a debate?

        14. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “When you read the full text, the interpretation that it is a command to kill all the believers is quite a stretch.”

          And, I have thus given ample evidence that this statement is incorrect. He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

        15. avatar jwtaylor says:

          John, you are missing the entire point.
          You have said that Muslims will all “take off their masks” and attempt to rise up and kill the infidels. I am arguing, based on my own real life experience, that this is just not reality. I’m arguing, again, not based on something I saw on the internet, on my own considerable real life experience, in multiple countries, living with and around and under the jurisdiction of Muslims, that the VAST majority of Muslims do not want to kill all the infidels.
          Are you really arguing that someone who has had the real world experience of having his mind changed by living with Muslims is ignoring facts? Which of us ignoring reality here? It’s not the guy that lived it, it’s the guy watching it on youtube.
          I have watched some, but not all of the videos you have posted. I don’t have time to just watch the same false argument over and over again. They read the Koran and give their interpretation.
          Which is absolutely pointless.
          I’ll say that again so its’ very clear, what the Koran says is absolutely pointless. How someone else interprets what the Koran says is doubly pointless.
          Because even if the Koran said explicitly, simply and plainly, “KILL ALL THE INFIDELS NO EXCEPTIONS!!!”, it’s not what the vast majority of Muslims actually believe.
          And that’s what we are talking about. That Muslims believe they should kill all the infidels. They don’t. That’s ridiculous. Again, there’s a billion of them. The world would be very different if they all believed that. But they don’t. Because that’s just crazy.
          Now, the argument that people often make (and is made by some of the videos you posted) is “unless they want to kill all the Infidels then they aren’t real Muslims.”
          False, and stupid. If you believe that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet, you’re a Muslim. But wait, the Koran says “KILL ALL THE INFIDELS NO EXCEPTIONS!!! So if you don’t believe that, you’re aren’t a Muslim.”
          Again, false and stupid. You are still a Muslim, you simply do not accept that doctrine. You may even be working to change that doctrine. Some might even call you a reformist. Ah, but the same people are telling me Islam cannot reform. Even though there’s different versions of it all around the world, these same internet “scholars” are telling me to not believe my eyes, don’t believe my ears, believe them instead.
          Nope. False, and stupid.
          Would you claim that all Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope? Would you claim that you aren’t a Catholic unless you fully believed every edict from every Pope ever was divinely inspired? I hope not, because that’s crazy.
          Just as crazy as every Muslim is waiting to take off their mask and start the slaughter. There’s no mask man, some of them are just decent people.

        16. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “You have said that Muslims will all “take off their masks” and attempt to rise up and kill the infidels.”

          That is not what I stated. I believe that you missed my points.

          1) Islam is not a religion of peace.
          2) Muslims who self-identify as such either do not truly understand the qu’ran and are naive or do understand it and are practicing Taqiyya.
          3) The very definitions of islam, as set forth in the qu’ran dictate that these peaceful muslims are either apostate or are kafir. Either way, it means death in islam.
          4) Islam cannot be reformed without gutting it due, in large part, to what is written in the qu’ran.
          5) Islam is a danger to liberty and all that is righteous.

          Now, friend, you want me to accept your opinions and experiences but are not willing to investigate factual evidence by a scholar and by former life long muslims. Please, seriously watch some videos from Acts17apologetics and ApostateProhpet. If you do and you still stand firm on your opinions, I can respect that and we can agree to disagree. (Who knows, you might even change my mind back to where I was prior to six months ago; but I highly doubt it.) Thank you much for your time, JWT.

        17. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “I am arguing, based on my own real life experience, that this is just not reality. I’m arguing, again, not based on something I saw on the internet, on my own considerable real life experience, in multiple countries, living with and around and under the jurisdiction of Muslims, that the VAST majority of Muslims do not want to kill all the infidels.”

          I never stated that “the VAST majority of muslims” “want to kill all the infidels.” That is what you are apparently wanting to see in what I wrote. What I have stated is that ISLAM calls muslims to kill and they aren’t good muslims (apostate) or muslims at all (kafir) ACCORDING TO THE qu’ran.

          “Are you really arguing that someone who has had the real world experience of having his mind changed by living with Muslims is ignoring facts?”

          Yes. By your own words, you refuse to look at the facts. You are talking about muslims you met. I am talking about islam. They are not necessarily the same thing.

          “Which of us ignoring reality here?”

          Actually, it’s you.

          “It’s not the guy that lived it, it’s the guy watching it on youtube.”

          You know some muslims. Are you a scholar of islam? If so, please refute, if you can, some of the evidence that has been presented here. Unfortunately, that means that you must actually glance at the evidence even once. This is something you refused to do.

          Facts, on YouTube or anywhere else are facts when they are backed up by clear evidence. In order to acertain if they are facts, you would have to actually view the evidence. I have read what you have written (your evidence) but you refuse to view my evidence.

          “I have watched some, but not all of the videos you have posted.”

          Good.

          “I don’t have time to just watch the same false argument over and over again. They read the Koran and give their interpretation.”

          That is flat out false. They even deal with this argument in the videos. They clearly read the qu’ran. They read the hadith. They read canonical interpretations. They read muslim historians on the very same subjects. The former muslims give their testomonies. Exactly where is the false argument. Name one and prove it.

          “Which is absolutely pointless.

          You don’t want to know the truth. We’ve all seen this before, eh?

          “I’ll say that again so its’ very clear, what the Koran says is absolutely pointless.”

          The qu’ran is the complete and clear word of allah, according to islam. Islam doesn’t exist without the qu’ran. How can you state that “what the Koran says is absolutely pointless” when it is the basis of the whole religion of islam. A muslim that disregards the qu’ran as absolutely pointless is not a muslim, at best, under islam and an apostate muslim, at worst.

          “How someone else interprets what the Koran says is doubly pointless.”

          The beuatiful thing about the sources I have presented here is that they aren’t interpretations and they blast that false argument out of the water time and time again. If you sought the truth instead of what you want to see then you would’ve already picked up on that.

          “Because even if the Koran said explicitly, simply and plainly, “KILL ALL THE INFIDELS NO EXCEPTIONS!!!”, it’s not what the vast majority of Muslims actually believe.”

          It doesn’t matter what “the vast majority of Muslims actually believe” as long as islam is supported at the core by the qu’ran. Again, if you actually looked at the evidence with any attempt to learn anything, that would’ve come through again and again. You simply want to believe that your opinions are correct. That much is glaringly obvious.

          “And that’s what we are talking about. That Muslims believe they should kill all the infidels. They don’t.”

          That’s what you keep wanting to make this about. Please post any evidence that I stated such in this conversation thread. You can’t because I didn’t.

          “That’s ridiculous. Again, there’s a billion of them. The world would be very different if they all believed that. But they don’t. Because that’s just crazy.”

          But I thought you knew “a vast majority of them”???

          “Now, the argument that people often make (and is made by some of the videos you posted) is “unless they want to kill all the Infidels then they aren’t real Muslims.”
          False, and stupid. If you believe that there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet, you’re a Muslim.”

          That is not what the qu’ran says. If you sought the truth, you would’ve hopefully come up with something other than what they have already debunked. You haven’t thus far.

          “But wait, the Koran says “KILL ALL THE INFIDELS NO EXCEPTIONS!!! So if you don’t believe that, you’re aren’t a Muslim.””

          It’s not that straight forward in the qu’ran or the hadith. If you actually examine the evidence, you would see how ridiculous this argument you are making really is.

          “Again, false and stupid. You are still a Muslim, you simply do not accept that doctrine.”

          Doctrine is not exactly the same thing as the qu’ran. Doctrine may be derived (interpreted) from a text but doesn’t necessarily mean the specific text. We weren’t discussing doctrine.

          https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/doctrine

          “You may even be working to change that doctrine. Some might even call you a reformist. Ah, but the same people are telling me Islam cannot reform.”

          There are a couple of videos talking about why islam cannot successfully be reformed and still remain islam. This is from former muslims who grew up in islam and not from a guy on the internet who knew some muslims. Thank goodness they actually examined the facts.

          “Even though there’s different versions of it all around the world, these same internet “scholars” are telling me to not believe my eyes, don’t believe my ears, believe them instead.”

          Deriding the factual evidence you refuse to completely examine by using “internet ‘scholars'” doesn’t change the veracity of those facts. It’s not like your opinions weren’t also posted… on the internet.

          “Nope. False, and stupid.”

          Exactly my opinion of this nonsense you wrote… on the INTERNET, by the way. lol

          “Would you claim that all Catholics believe in the infallibility of the Pope? Would you claim that you aren’t a Catholic unless you fully believed every edict from every Pope ever was divinely inspired? I hope not, because that’s crazy.”

          Apples and oranges. You are obfuscating. We were discussing islam and the qu’ran. But, I will play a little bit… IF the core text of Catholisim repeated with ferocity that it was a core requirement of being a Catholic…

          The qu’ran is a nasty piece of work. Have you read it?

          “Just as crazy as every Muslim is waiting to take off their mask and start the slaughter. There’s no mask man, some of them are just decent people.”

          I never made the claim. The lady doth protest too much, methinks.

          If you ever open your eyes to the truth about islam, you will be calling people around the world who tried to get you to see over the years and apologizing to them. You aren’t alone. I had to do it.

        18. avatar John in Ohio says:

          I’ll state this so it’s very clear; you aren’t talking about islam if you dismiss the qu’ran as “absolutely pointless.” There is no islam without the qu’ran. Without islam there are no muslims.

          “I’ll say that again so its’ very clear, what the Koran says is absolutely pointless.”

          The qu’ran is the complete and clear word of allah, according to islam. Islam doesn’t exist without the qu’ran. How can you state that “what the Koran says is absolutely pointless” when it is the basis of the whole religion of islam. A muslim that disregards the qu’ran as absolutely pointless is not a muslim, at best, under islam and an apostate muslim, at worst.

        19. avatar John in Ohio says:

          Surely you can’t disregard “Debate: Is the Quran a Book of Peace? Shabir Ally (Muslim) vs. David Wood (Christian)” This, as with the other debate posted, is not simply an “internet scholar” as you say. Instead of making hollow assertions, present something and defend it with facts and sources, please.

          http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2015/10/debate-is-quran-book-of-peace-shabir.html

        20. avatar John in Ohio says:

          Here is the background of one of the “internet scholars” whom you so easily dismiss and refuse to even examine the evidence of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Wood_(Christian_apologist)#Early_life_and_education

          Here is who he is debating at the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga in the last debate link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabir_Ally

          Mere “internet scholars”, JWT?

        21. avatar jwtaylor says:

          John, that was a whole lot of writing, and I’m not willing to go through your arguments line by line, because you are still missing the absolute point of it, and I think that’s because you have not lived the experience, but are relying on other people’s opinions which you have garnered through videos on the internet.

          The point is simple, very, very few Muslims believe they are instructed to kill all the infidels. Very, very few Muslims believe they have to attack all the infidels. Very, very few Muslims believe they can not live in peace with the infidels. This is evident not only through observation of the world around us, but through my own life experience. I have not “met a few” Muslims. I have met thousands and worked and lived with hundreds, for years. I have met Muslims that felt otherwise, that felt they had to kill the infidels, and I killed a bunch of them. Standing next to me, on many occasions, are Muslims that did not believe they had to kill all infidels, and would fight to the death to protect them.
          Regardless of what you think the Koran says, regardless of what any host of internet videos you post of the “scholars” say, Islam itself does not require that you believe all the infidels should be killed. Even if the Koran actually said “YOU HAVE TO KILL ALL THE INFIDELS”, it still would not mean that all Muslims have to believe that.
          Understand the philosophical paradox you have painted. You say that the Koran requires the death of the infidel. You say that Islam can not be reformed. You say that the Muslims that say they are Muslim but don’t believe that the Koran commands them to kill the infidel aren’t real Muslims.
          Don’t you see how all of those statements can not be true?
          They are not all true. Because there are hundreds of millions of Muslims, the vast majority of them, that do not believe this is true.

        22. avatar John in Ohio says:

          Your answer is a complete cop-out, JWT. You simply keep repeating the same things, claiming incorrectly that I am making a statement that I am not.

          – I have given proof that these are not merely “internet scholars”.
          – I have CLEARLY restated my position in numbered format with simple sentences and it doesn’t match what you keep claiming that I am stating.
          – You have been asked direct questions which you appear to ignore. I will review your last answer more closely later.
          – You make claims but do not offer any proof EXCEPT APPEAL TO YOUR “AUTHORITY” in the matter. For example, you claim that the sources I have given are not scholarly. I proved that Dr. David Wood is a scholar. For example, you claim that he is lying and has a bias. I asked you to cite at least one example and prove your claim but you ignore the request. For example, you claim the “vast majority” of muslims but do not offer any real proof beyond your word (on the internet, BTW). For example, you claim that the qu’ran is pointless in discussing islam but you never explain how islam remains islam without it’s founding and core text.

          I imagine that you have gotten up before audiences and told your feel good muslim stories. You might have even told them in articles and perhaps a book. You don’t want egg on your face now. You don’t want to see any evidence that might prove you were mistaken. This is no different than the anti-gunners. What a pity, sir.

          There’s no fool like an old fool.

        23. avatar jwtaylor says:

          John, I am trying to say this as many ways as I can so that you will understand it. I am sorry that so far I have failed.
          I will completely except that the people you have quoted are Scholars about what the Quran says. I do not disagree that they are students of the Koran and they may know a lot about what the Quran says and they may have there own informed opinions on the Koran.
          And it is pointless.
          I do not believe what the Quran says. I do not believe the Koran is the truth.
          They might, they might not, I don’t care and it doesn’t matter.
          Because the vast majority of Muslims do not believe that they have to attack or kill unbelievers. Do you accept that point?
          I cannot accept a contrary view to that, because that is my real-world experience.
          Second, yes, my real-world experience trumps any scholarly opinion, no matter how well-informed you might provide as evidence. I am much more of an expert on what I have lived and seen with my own eyes than any of them.

        24. avatar John in Ohio says:

          “Because the vast majority of Muslims do not believe that they have to attack or kill unbelievers. Do you accept that point?
          I cannot accept a contrary view to that, because that is my real-world experience.”

          I agree with you on these points. I do not believe that the vast majority of muslims believe that they have to attack or kill unbelievers. I also believe that you have had the real-world experiences you describe and those experiences, combined with a few other factors (IMHO), set the stage for you, right or wrong, to not accept what I have been posting about ISLAM (notice, not a vast majority of muslims; I speak of islam only). I posted the previous video on the jihad triangle before the page was refreshed and your reply appeared. I humbly request that you consider watching that 4 minute, 56 second video as it sums up much of what I have come to understand.

          It is important for me to note that I would never call for the curtailing of religious or other freedoms of muslims or anyone else. I fight for the liberty of muslims as well. I hope that you have read enough of my writings to know that much about me.

          With that, perhaps you and I should leave it there for now, on a note of agreement, and return to fighting together in the cause of liberty.

  19. avatar GunnyGene says:

    The latest example of cultural suicide, which seems to be a growing trend in the Western World. Just takes a long time for countries to bleed out.

    1. avatar barnbwt says:

      Human version of colony-collapse.

  20. avatar bryan1980 says:

    Sad, but not overly surprising. Didn’t think it would take this long, honestly. Let’s hope the Czechs hold out, and they just might, at that. They are a highly Euro-skeptic people.

  21. avatar w. berry says:

    They have it backwards. If this doe`s nothing to reduce the amount of criminal or terrorist activity after a couple of years, they should not tighten the laws but give the citizens back the ability to defend themselves with whatever firearm they choose.

  22. avatar barnbwt says:

    Well on a positive note, I think this means that B&T will be moving to America like all the other European arms makers before too long.

  23. avatar Joe says:

    Dumb fools, every last one of them. The Swiss may as well hand in all their guns now, because if they seriously believe the EU is going to be satisfied with just this, they are sorely mistaken.

  24. avatar GS650G says:

    If you have not a constitution to set the rules then anything goes.

    1. avatar EnDangerEd says:

      Even if you have a Constitution but your legislators are bound and determined to IGNORE and VIOLATE IT then there is little left to do…. but fight for it. Even as they Founders DID. Otherwise Freedom will parish from the face of the Earth for a very LONG time. Maybe forever as mankinds time runs out.

      1. avatar Tiger says:

        That is a bit overkill. Most Earthlings live rather happy lives and never touch a gun.

        1. avatar Dom Feducinni says:

          Hard to believe but true. People have lived long, happy and productive lives without any firearms. Sad, they may never know the feeling of taking another life. I certainly wouldn’t like that for my children.

        2. avatar jwm says:

          Tiger and dom. We used to get first class trolls around here. Now we get the dregs like you two.

          Sad.

        3. avatar Arc says:

          I prefer to take my gun with me anywhere I go, especially to my back yard. With an open border, anyone could be waiting, anyone could be surprised. Not to mention wild animals… Bobcats, Black panthers (melanistic jaguars), snakes, etc.

        4. avatar George from Alaska says:

          Exactly who do you vegan special needs people hang with?
          I don’t know a single man or woman at the fire station, my Church, the Morman church, Search and Rescue, the Lions club where I volunteer, the adult leadership of the Boy and Girl Scouts and a few other groups I work with that does not only touch but… “gasp” shoot firearms to gather food or to practice home defense. Exactly when did people live whole lives without being exposed to firearms… I mean since coal was invented – not 1 Million Years BC….

        5. avatar Someone says:

          And mist of cattle lives happy, productive lives in their stalls.

        6. avatar Someone says:

          Most of cattle, not mist.

  25. avatar Full Otto says:

    I’m boycotting their cheese.

    1. avatar Fill Erup says:

      Yeah, I’m sure it won’t have any holes in it anymore.

  26. avatar Nanashi says:

    The ones who voted for this deserve everything Merkel does to them.

  27. avatar John in Ohio says:

    Tick-tock. Tyranny wins the long game.

  28. avatar Craig S. Andersen says:

    This is a sad day for the Swiss. They should know. If government supports a measure, its adoption is at the expense of liberty. The next Hitler who comes along will have no reservations about invading and stealing every ounce of gold in Switzerland.

  29. avatar Jim Bullock says:

    So, since the E U so likes to extort people into doing what it wants … never deal with them to begin with.

    1. avatar Tiger says:

      Not trade with one the richest markets in the planet over this? Fine in principle. But not practical.

  30. avatar Sprocket says:

    More and more, I think every American life and every American dollar spent in Europe was wasted. We should have left them to Hitler and Stalin.

    1. avatar Joe says:

      Indeed, Sprocket. When you look at Great Britain, and see how it has been over run by the Muslims and other “refugees”, I am wondering if perhaps FDR and Eisenhower should have let them fend for themselves against Hitler. Oh, they would be speaking German right about now. At the rate they are going, however, they will have to learn Arabic.

      1. avatar John in Ohio says:

        FDR and tyranny got a lot of miles from that war. Tyrants here were itching to jump into it for any false flag. But, I agree with your sentiment.

  31. avatar M1Lou says:

    This is what happens when people vote for convienence over principles.

  32. avatar Alan says:

    I believe the following admonition sums the thing up well enough. Act in haste, repent at leisure.

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