Sometimes in researchinig stories to share with TTAG’s audience you come across an old one that still makes you shake your head. Sometimes you come across an old one that makes you shake your head so much you just have to share it. After all these years, what this grandfather says, in spite of his obvious grief, is still a head scratcher. So here’s the story:
Years ago, Massad Ayoob once told me, “In a fight for your life, if it’s a fair fight, your tactics suck.” Like many of us, I’ve heard (and used) that same expression countless times. However, a grandfather in Oklahoma apparently thought it should be a fair fight between home invaders like his grandson and innocent homeowners.
Leroy Schumacher told media outlets that the homeowner’s use of an AR-15 gave him an “unfair advantage” against the gaggle of armed thugs who broke into his home. In the end, three of the thugs assumed room temperature.
Grandpa, using his impressive intellect and reasoning abilities told KTUL at the time that the shooting and killing of the armed home invader teens was “not needed.” From KTUL:
COOKSON, Okla., (KTUL) — A family member of one of the three teen suspects killed after breaking into a Wagoner County home Monday is speaking out for the first time.
The grandfather of Jacob Redfearn believes shooting and killing the 17-year-old and his friends was not needed.
Don’t you love it when the family members of violent criminals speak out to the media, trying to paint their misguided scholar kin as the true victims.
Grandpa Schumacher brought a big shovel to continue diggin’.
“What these three boys did was stupid,” said Leroy Schumacher.
Schumacher agrees his grandson and his friends made a bad decision, but not one worthy of deadly consequences.
“They knew they could be punished for it but they did not deserve to die,” said Schumacher.
Redfearn, 19-year old Maxwell Cook and 16-year old Jake Woodruff were shot by the homeowner’s son while breaking into the Wagoner County…
Schumacher says his grandson didn’t have a chance. The 17-year old, he says, never got into trouble.
“Brass knuckles against an AR-15, come on, who was afraid for their life,” Schumacher told the station at the time.
Those “boys” FAFO‘d – deep in the heart of gun-lovin’ Oklahoma of all places – and it didn’t work out well for them. And now, the intruder’s grandpa wants to change the law that allows homeowners to use deadly force in the face of a violent and tumultuous forced entry into their home by intruders or recommend which guns are acceptable to defend yourself with so what? The criminals have a chance.
“There’s got to be a limit to that law, I mean he shot all three of them; there was no need for that,” said Schumacher.
LISTEN: 911 call released from deadly Wagoner County burglary
Schumacher does say he supports the right to bear arms and protect your home. But he doesn’t agree with shooting and killing intruders.
At least not when his grandson was one of them. Despite sporting masks and two of them carrying weapons, the homeowner should’ve just taken his beating I guess.
He only hopes their deaths can be an example for others.
“You can’t change history, but you can damn sure learn from it, and maybe some kids will learn from this,” said Schumacher.\
Finally Grandpa Schumacher said something we can all agree with…maybe some of these little thugs will learn if they “fool” around, they might find out that doing so may have fatal consequences.
A Slate Report had more information about the incident.
(Elizabeth Marie) Rodriguez later went to the police, admitted her involvement and told investigators that she had planned the whole thing. She was arrested and charged with first- and second-degree burglary, as well as three counts of first-degree murder since Oklahoma state law says someone can be charged with murder if another person takes the life of a human being during their commission of a felony, CNN reported.
For her part, Rodriguez can face life in prison or even the death penalty, but it’s the homeowner’s son and the AR-15 that Leroy Schumacher seemingly blames for his grandson’s death. “What these three boys did was stupid,” Schumacher admitted. “They knew they could be punished for it, but they did not deserve to die,” he continued. “Brass knuckles against an AR-15? C’mon. Who was afraid for their life?”
You don’t go in a person’s home unless invited. It’s as simple as that.
The thing that so many people seem to misunderstand, including a lot of “gun people” it seems, is that the killing that may or may not occur due to a DGU is incidental to the DGU itself.
Very close to no one is shooting to kill. They’re shooting to get you to stop doing whatever it is that got them to shoot at you in the first place. It just so happens that because of the way we’re built the places you tend to get shot, because they’re easiest to hit, have a lot of important shit in them and therefore you may die (though this is far less common than many would like you to believe) if they manage to hit you close to where they’re aiming.
Going beyond this, with a coup de grace or something, is generally frowned upon by the legal establishment and is no longer considered defensive. It’s generally classed as murder or manslaughter.
While probably a bitter pill for a grieving grandfather, the grandson’s death is, in fact, incidental and mostly unintentional. The punishment was getting shot at. Actually being hit and subsequently dying are basically luck from the point of view of the person being shot at.
Breaking into houses is a risky business. If you really want to play games like that, instead of going all Christopher Walken in The Deer Hunter it’s probably a better idea to take Billy Joel’s advice and go to the track or a find a party where they’re betting in the back.
““There’s got to be a limit to that law, I mean he shot all three of them; there was no need for that,” said Schumacher.”
Reminds me of a line in the movie ‘Amadeus’, about the life of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart, when one of his Royal patrons griped that Mozart used “Too many notes”.
He used exactly the number of rounds he needed, not one more or less… 😉
The Gene pool was saved from pollution. Jr. got his IQ from grampa🙄 (Of course an AR is an advantage gramps)😀
99% “grandpa” was also a crook in his day. Multigenerational is a thing. Which for many many years that Darwin was not allowed to ballistically fix.
Unfair, unethical, and possibly illegal. Refer to the Sub-Commission to the First Commission to the 2004 HeyG (pronounced heɪ-Jee!) Peace Conference, titled “Check Your Privilege.”
I vaguely remember years ago, a young teen burglar broke into a house armed with a knife. There was a young male inside the house and fatally shot him with a rifle. The uncle of the burglar stated, a rifle versus a knife, that isn’t fair.
There was a Reddit story a couple years ago, where a young gansta type got himself ended breaking into somebody’s house…or maybe it was a mobile home.
His sister, with the giant hair and the giant eyelashes, was on TV saying “All he wanted was money for nice clothes!” and going on to say he didn’t deserve to die.
But dead he was…dead as the dinosaurs.
And, buried in threads he didn’t pick or would’ve probably approved of. These are important things for thugs to think about.
And here I am thinking that self-defense shouldn’t be “sporting and fair”. If you’re in a fair fight, you f***ked up.
Here’s a thought.
Grandpa Schumaker has just shown his hand.
1. He very possibly does NOT have an AR-15 of his own in his home, and hell’s bells, maybe he doesn’t even have any way at all to defend himself from an armed invasion of local young people.
The article doesn’t say Grandpa S’s age, but you never know; maybe he ain’t moving too good these days. Maybe he ain’t seeing or hearing too good. Somebody knows him, so somebody knows his frailties.
2. Even if he DID have a firearm in his house, he has telegraphed his own hesitance to use lethal force. Maybe we have a guy who can’t see, can’t hear, can’t walk, AND refuses to defend himself.
3. It’s been 7 years now since his grandson’s bullet ridden body was buried. Grandpa hasn’t had to spend any money on birthday or Christmas gifts on his grandson for that many years now. Maybe that means that Grandpa has more to spend on himself. Bad guys still like big screen TVs, right? Maybe there’s a nice car in Grandpa’s driveway; maybe a car that he doesn’t drive because of his eyesight.
Most criminals are not too bright. But even the dumbest ones can be surprisingly industrious when it comes to planning their crimes.
Good luck, Grandpa S; can’t wait to see you dodge those rounds like Neo in The Matrix! Hope you have cameras!
WTF? Over. This was so obviously justified I can’t believe that there’s even a question. Three young men, one of which was armed with brass knuckles, is at least aggravated assault. If any contact was made, it’s aggravated battery. It goes up from there where I live. I’ve never taken one of Massad Ayoob’s classes, but I did break bread and burn gun powder with him a couple of times. Good guy.
I am too used to seeing this reaction to be surprised by anything other than the location it is being expressed.
There is no rational or reasoned thought with people like grandpa. They simply want what they want and their brain, racked with evil, is content with harming you to get what they want.
You know what I consider an unfair advantage? A four on one ambush in the middle of the night.
The sadness I have is the home invaders chose a life that got them killed instead of a path that helps society. Also that the shooter and homeowner get to be victimized for the rest of their day via bearing the burden they killed 3 people. It is likely uneasy for most, no matter how justifiable.
This, on both points.
“You get what you deserve.”
— Joker
What if grandpa had his house invaded by three armed thugs and see which gun he would prefer. Maybe a 12 gauge? What if he was defending family members who had no way to defend themselves? What if he doesn’t know there are “only” three of them? That’s different.
Mr. peters didn’t chose to shoot the scumbags who broke into his home and threatened the lives of the people in it. That choice was made by the dead perps who chose poorly when they decided to commit the forced entry and burglary. Nuff Said. Next.
Well said..
Forrest Gump.
invade our home, its very likely you will not survive but its possible and it all depends on your mindset home invader.
if ya gonna have the mindset to invade our home, our dogs get to have the mindset to invade your body with teeth and claws and we get to have the mindset to invade your body with bullets.
If you survive after you are stopped we will consider it a mindset reset for you. if you do not survive after you are stopped we will consider it a mindset cure for you.
We don’t wish to kill anyone, but if you invade our home don’t think for a moment that you have a good chance of success.
So the solution is, to ensure your safety home invader … you don’t have the mindset to invade our home and we and our dogs will not have the mindset to quickly and absolutely change your mindset.
The Left Is Pushing Congress for an Insurrection on Jan. 6, 2025.
h ttps://pjmedia.com/matt-margolis/2024/12/26/the-left-is-pushing-congress-for-an-insurrection-january-6-2025-n4935437
It’s almost given antifa and their fellow travelers including blm are going to try something on either January 6 or 20. They may find their “popular uprising” is either disappointingly small or almost completely ignored.
or it will be tragically destructive if the “forces of law” conduct themselves as they did on January 6 previous
Good thing these dumbasses won’t reproduce and continue polluting the gene pool.
On the other had, maybe they already had. Perish the thought.
Feral families breed feral kids.
These criminals broke into someone’s house. They knew it was wrong. Considering the brazenness of what they did one wonders what other criminal activity they were responsible for.
Pro tip: Don’t break into someone’s house and you won’t have to worry about an AR15 toting homeowner helping you to assume room temperature.
PS. Wanna bet these 3 perps are going to show up as “victims” of “assault weapon” violence in the gun controller’s stats?
AND, betcha this wasn’t their first foray into his type of activity. Hence, their brazenness.
We need the facts. Was it a 5.56 ar or a pcc?
How many rounds did he fire? How many hits per perp and where were the hits? What ammo?
Distance? Inquiring minds want to know.
The HOMEOWNER did GOOD . . . the PERPs didn’t do so well – End of STORY. The PERPs got what they deserved.
I would have shot first and asked questions later! Enter here and I will protect my family at all costs!
Is it really true that surrounding one’s home with active Claymors is illegal? Can it really be? Say it isn’t so, Joe.
(Now, where did I put those dearming instructions?)
Now the ones deserving of an ass whooping in this scenario is those who raised these miscreants. The shootings were justified completely!
Deserves has nothing to do with it
Yes, yes, it does.
If the homeowner’s son used pmags, I see a major marketing opportunity here for Magpul, it is their slogan.
What part of F*ck with the bull and you get the horn is Rocket Science?
“Very close to no one is shooting to kill. They’re shooting to get you to stop doing whatever it is that got them to shoot at you in the first place.”
While I get that’s the smart thing to say to our legal system, I think we all know it’s not true. You aren’t using a deadly weapon, aiming center mass (where the vital organs are, as opposed to, say, their limbs) to “stop” them but leave them otherwise hale and healthy. There’s a reason you are trained to shoot at least twice with a handgun – because one round is unlikely to finish the job in a timely fashion. When you point a gun at someone and pull the trigger, you are trying to kill them, full stop.
And that’s OK. It’s a shame we have to pretend otherwise.
Attitudes like grandpa’s produce kids like his grandson.
The old man is morally culpable for his grandson’s behavior.
His opinion is worse than worthless.
There is a lot more to this story that can be found. WHy was it the grandpa talking and not the parents? Because they are not around. THe three boys/men were apparently in the foster system.
As a retired LEO with 48 years of street service, I applaud citizens with enough sense and courage to engage three Goblins breaking into his house. From my police experience, and one combat tour in Vietnam, I know there is no such thing as too big a gun, or too much ammo. You shoot the bad guys until they STOP being bad guys, and if they assume air temp in that process, so be it.
And age is no protection, as I had three of my fellow officers shot by kids as young as 16 during their crime spree.
“A covenant not to defend myself from force by force, is always void. For the right men have by Nature to protect themselves, when none else can protect them, can by no covenant be relinquished.” -Thomas Hobbes, ‘Leviathan’ 1651.
OUR right to personal self-defense does NOT end at our property line, it goes with us wherever we go. People carry a gun because they cannot carry a cop. There’s a natural human right to self-defense. If you deny the means to affect that defense, such as firearms or the right to carry them, then you deny the right of self-defense; thus, gun control is antithetical to the right, unlawful, immoral and unconstitutional.
You are absolutely correct, William. And, welcome home.
or it will be tragically destructive if the “forces of law” conduct themselves as they did on January 6 previous.
Self-defense has nothing to do with desert. It isn’t punishment for crime, it is doing what is necessary to stop crime.
Shameful of this grandfather to pretend he doesn’t understand this. He brings as much shame on the family as his violently criminal grandson.
The kid had a weapon designed for smashing a victim’s skull, and he had two accomplices to help him carry out his dirty deed. Absolutely a lethal threat, in a situation, home invasion, that the law assumes constitutes a lethal threat.
The grandfather’s lack of moral character likely explains part of why his grandson needed to be shot.
I’m sure they were good kids who just fell in with a bad crowd. Probably on the verge of turning their lives around.
So sad.
/s
I believe a Florida sheriff recently commented on a similar situation: If you attempt to invade a home, expect to be shot.
That used to be the normal in previous generations, it’s just recently – last 25 years or so – where things were inverted and the rights of thugs prevail over law abiding citizens.
Grampa is revealing how badly the MEDIA has contributed to this – he grew up trusting the media to present the truth, and took their propaganda hook line and sinker.
Not to forget that Congress in Obama’s day changed the law and now allows the US.Gov to legally pay to promote propaganda in the news, and suppress common sense. Yet, nobody is calling out those politicians for their reversal – not that pointing fingers at RINO’s does much good yet. And, it still hasn’t been fixed. Note carefully, for all the boasting about what is going to be fixed, this law allowing our .gov to pay media to insert lies is yet to be mentioned, and indictments for stuffing the ballot box are ignored in public conversation.
We appear to be heading straight towards ignoring it all. Just damp down the real patriots and let bygones be bygones, so sorry your grampa died alone on a respirator, too bad, forgive and forget, ok?
Those who instruct us to stick to our Christian principles are most often NOT Christians, but sense stupidity these days is praised and intelligence demonized, oh well . . .
Here’s an old interview with him.
https://youtu.be/dfehDON_hqA?si=VmJyXS6VwpOQx2XY
Reminds me of another Tulsa story from about the same time where a young thug was killed by his intended victim in an armed robbery. His sister, in an interview with the Tulsa press the next day asked, “How else was he supposed to get money for his school clothes?”