So You Think Tyranny Can’t Happen Here?

swat team gun confiscation

Bigstock

By Miguel A. Faria, M.D.

When discussing government overreach, which incidentally continues unimpeded, or the danger of the monopoly of force concentrated in the hands of government in the way of law enforcement, especially from federal police and particularly the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), I’m frequently told that if one has done nothing wrong there is nothing to fear from government. And when I describe my first-hand experience in Cuba, or relate events from my studies of communism in the former USSR, China, Cambodia, Venezuela, and the Eastern European satellite states, I’m told, “But Dr. Faria, such cruelty and tyranny can happen in third-world countries, but it cannot happen here. This is America.”

I respond, “Really? Have you heard, or rather read, of the story of David Koresh and the Waco, Texas, massacre of innocents by the ATF and the FBI?” I say read, because almost all of the victims — men, women and children, and Koresh himself — are dead at the hands of the federal police. One only has to look at this issue a bit more closely to ascertain the deadly implications of just such a naive attitude.

BRANCH DAVIDIAN waco koresh

In this April 19, 1993 file photo, flames engulf the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas. As many as 86 members of the Branch Davidian religious sect, including Koresh and 24 children, were thought to have died as the flames raced through the wooden buildings in 30 minutes. Only nine were known to have survived. (AP Photo/Susan Weems, File)

Unfortunately, there are many more cases that have been swept under the rug by the media through insufficient or biased coverage. Of course, there was the well-known 1992 case of Vicky and Samuel Weaver (her 14-year-old son) killed at Ruby Ridge, Idaho. But there were also the many incidents of lesser known Americans. 

There was Carl Drega who was driven to criminal insanity and murder by government and bureaucratic injustice. There was the totally innocent John Gerald Quinn, whose home was subjected to a “no-knock” raid (once referred to as “dynamic entry”).

There are many lawful American gun owners who over the years have been victimized by the errors or excesses of the ATF or for firearm misdemeanors or technicalities. People such as Bruce Abramski, who was prosecuted for an alleged straw purchase and has filed a lawsuit against the state. I will not go into the war on drugs for that is another area that needs closer inspection. Suffice it to say, many Americans have been apprehended, shot and killed for violating drug laws, even in the supposed safety of their own homes.

I have written about the dangerous trend toward the militarization of the police. In 2015 in a little-known case, two Idaho deputies killed Jack Yantis, a cattle rancher who had rushed to the scene where one of his bulls had been injured in a car crash. No matter the particulars of this incident, it should never have happened.

On December 9, 2019, Frank Ordonez, a 27-year-old UPS driver, was needlessly killed in a gun battle after his truck was hijacked and he was taken hostage by two armed robbers. The responding Boward County SWAT team appeared in full force. Without beginning any type of negotiation and without a sniper in place, they engaged the robbers in a shootout that left four people dead, including Ordonez and another innocent bystander.

Why was the life of Ordonez and the other innocent person killed not taken into account in such a confrontation? Were they only unfortunate “collateral damage?”

A more recent incident — this time a case of government overreach and police state tactics — is that of Duncan Lemp, a 21-year-old young tech engineer who was shot and killed in the early morning hours of March 12, 2020 in Montgomery County, Maryland. He was shot and killed in his own home in a “no-knock” raid by a SWAT team serving a “high-risk warrant” for alleged “firearms offenses.”

Duncan Lemp

Duncan Lemp courtesy GoFundMe

If one reads the account in Wikipedia, it is an incendiary, one-sided narrative, painting this young man as a right-wing paramilitary troublemaker. Not until we read the brief response by his own family at the end of the Wikipedia account do we finally get a more balanced view. There is no evidence that there was any imminent threat to law enforcement or to anyone else.

The police have refused to release video footage of the shooting. Why? And even if this young man had possessed illegal weapons as the police claimed, there was no need for this horrific event to take place in America. Incidentally, all of the accounts on Wikipedia and in the mainstream media reports are heavily biased against the victims and quite sympathetic to the almighty state. As the saying goes, to the victors go the spoils — and they also get to write the history.

And then, when we thought we have heard it all, in Louisville, Kentucky, on March 13, 2020, three plainclothes police officers in unmarked vehicles conducted a botched “no-knock” raid at the wrong address. They woke up EMT Breonna Taylor and her CCW-licensed boyfriend, who, thinking they were the subject of a home invasion, fired his gun, wounding one of the cops in the leg.

Breonna Taylor

Taylor family photo

A gun battle ensued in which Taylor was hit eight times by police gunfire and killed. The boyfriend was apprehended and has been charged with the attempted murder of police officers (those charges were dropped today). The police raid was supposed to have happened at a “trap house” more than 10 miles from Taylor’s apartment. Taylor’s family has filed a lawsuit

No wonder there have been record numbers of firearms sold during this coronavirus “pandemic,” as well as record numbers of new gun owners. It is not only fear of the many criminals trying to take advantage of the population, but also fear of government overreach and growing authoritarianism, including civil liberties, during this pandemic.

So, my naive friends, tell the victims who were killed by law enforcement officers enforcing unjust laws or totally innocent people shot in crossfire, that they have nothing to fear because they have supposedly done nothing wrong. The adages of the great English jurists — Sir Edward Coke (1552-1634), that a man’s home is his castle that not even a king can violate and that of Sir William Blackstone (1723-1780) that a man has a right to self-defense — have been thrown out the window too often.

The government has arrogated to itself the right to burst into a citizen’s home based solely on the suspicion or a tip from an informer working with the police (usually criminals looking for reduced sentences for their own crimes) that there are illegal firearms in the house. When the government is given a monopoly of force and not held accountable, you do have a lot to fear, even if you done nothing wrong.

 

Miguel A. Faria, M.D., is Associate Editor in Chief in socioeconomics, politics, medicine, and world affairs of Surgical Neurology International (SNI). This article is excerpted, updated, and edited from his newly release book, America, Guns, and Freedom: A Journey Into Politics and the Public Health & Gun Control Movements (2019)

comments

  1. avatar MtnDewey says:

    yep, and it is done with no remorse, no apologetic sympathies nor any repercussions. That is why cities and towns have a fund for lawsuits. LEO are out of control, the Nazi-like tactics and hiring of anyone is also a large denominator. The LEO will be the brown-shirt army of the tyrannical oppression in this world and country. Military and vets will not do this; LE will do it due to fear of redress, losing jobs, not being in the “family” anymore as outcasts. Also, as I have studied most recently, more and more of your LE recruits are power hungry, narcissistic, borderline schizophrenic and sadistically driven.

    1. avatar Chris Morton says:

      All you need to know about how police view citizens is contained in the shootings of:
      * Michael Pleasance
      * Kathryn Johnston
      * Levar Jones
      * Emma Hernadez
      * Charles Kinsey
      * Justine Damond
      * Botham Jean

      To a significant portion of police, citizens are nothing more than reactive targets.

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      It’s a continuing and disturbing pattern…there should be more accountability…instead of just paying people off…and sometimes even that does not happen…

    3. avatar Theodore Matuga, M.D. says:

      The most dangerous statement is “This is America. It can’t happen here”
      This is reminiscent of the person, who while boarding the Titanic, exclaimed: “Not even God can sink this ship”.
      America is not the God-respecting country it once was when the Founding Fathers gave us a Republic. Ben Franklin told us “Only God knows if we “can keep it”.
      “The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance”.
      The enemies we have most to fear have already infiltrated our educational, societal, and political systems while we ignored who we were voting into power.
      If enough ill-informed people vote with their emotions, instead of with their intellect, we will succumb to the evil which desires to have complete control of us.

  2. avatar Dennis says:

    Tyrants are continually pushing the boundaries to see how much more people will tolerate! This plague was manna from heaven for them, they’ve been waiting for an excuse to play STALIN! What a shame history is not taught in our “learning” institutions anymore.

    1. avatar Theodore Matuga, M.D. says:

      The Second Amendment guarantees the First Amendment.
      The 2nd A is very clear and succinct. It is unable to be misunderstood by any normal citizen (i.e. not included to insure our right to go goose hunting!).
      “Times will pass and things will get better”? Yes, but only if WE stand up for our God given rights!
      Let the gun haters be…NO ONE is forcing them to buy a gun! By the same token they MUST respect the 2nd Amendment and respect those of us who want to arm ourselves.

    2. avatar R.Corrino says:

      Oh history is still taught. Revised history of the leftists such as those of Howard Zinn and the 1618 project.

  3. avatar Ralph says:

    You want to see tyranny? Try going out without a mask. Try going to church. Try having a political meeting, a party, or a backyard BBQ.

    The country is run by petty despots. And it is going to get much, much worse.

    1. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

      I think a line from the movie Patriot said it most truthfully.

    2. avatar tsbhoa.p.jr says:

      never wear a mask. sermon at the lake. gatherings at garages and yards all about locally. and i’m surrounded by bed wetters. are you hallucinating?
      it may get worse. but it’ll get way better first.

      1. avatar Jeremy B. says:

        Masks and hand washing prevent the spread of infectious diseases.

        Corona has killed…
        Nearly 100k people in the US alone.
        More in New Orleans than hurricane Katrina.
        5 years worth of flu deaths, while we’re on lock down.

        How many have to die or have lifetime medical complications before you take this seriously?

        1. avatar T..H.E.BEAR says:

          Your numbers are made up and this SCAMDEMIC is a political attack on our country by China and the demobulb party. All the preceding hoaxes failed miserably and this is the next to last gasp of the so called “resistance” idiots of the demorat party trying to keep power. Pussy out and stay locked up if you wish but don’t demand I bend my knee to your insanity. You just have to look at FatBoy Prickster or Wretched Gretchen or Fredo Cuomo and Blackface Northam and the Commiefornia moron Gabby Noisome as well as Taxachusetts very own Weasel Faced Murphy to see this is an attempt to sway an election they were losing. SO put on your half burqa and cave in like a wet paper bag.

        2. avatar rip_vw32 says:

          Couple of points (and I know I am late to this party)…

          1. Lady dies from stage 4 ovarian cancer, had the COVID-19 virus in her body at time of autopsy – deemed death from Cancer by coroner. Hospital changed the record to reflect death caused by complications due to COVID-19
          2. Man dies on operating table after car accident. Has COVID-19 virus in his body. Coroner rules accidental death due to blunt force trauma. Hospital changed death record to reflect death caused by complication due to COVID-19.

          Look them up. These are not the only instances of this. The numbers are inflated. Just because hospitals get federal funding by number of cases where death was due to complications of COVID-19.

          Yes – it is leathal. Yes it is contagious. It is also beatable, and there are way more people who were infected with it all the way back in January than there are today.

          Just do your research.

    3. avatar Wolfie says:

      You people strike me as the nutjob right. Sorry but that’s my impression. I was an NRA member for 50 years until they supported the fake president, Trump. I severed all contact. I’m originally a NewYorker so I’ve been aware of that slimy character for a long time. Had to say it. Sorry if I bent anybody’s feelings. Left is right!

      1. avatar T..H.E.BEAR says:

        Well Wolfie Old Girl, no one misses you and your weak sister attitude and willingness to bend over to be sodomized by the left with a smile on your face and no reach around to make you happier. Please though tell me you moved to NJ or Taxachusetts so as to not infect a good red state with your sycophant attitude.

    4. avatar Hugh Glass says:

      About 20% of people wear masks here, and
      Of those most are elderly, disabled, or moved here from up North.

  4. Way to go Doc! Put THEIR feet to the fire 🔥…Bloused pants, jackboots and all….! Show everyone what a Police State looks like…Some examples, are NY., MA., CA., MD., NJ., CT., etc….Breaking the Law in the name of the Law….

    1. avatar S.Crock says:

      Other notable examples are TX, UT, AZ, SC, OK, etc. Too often people make the mistake of downplaying tyranny in red states just because some basic freedoms like concealed carry and AR’s are relatively uninfringed upon.

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      would seem the blue states are the worst offenders…they seem to get off on that enhanced degree of control…

      1. avatar Ginder12 says:

        Right because all the cops, govt agents and others involved in the above mentioned shootings are democrats.

        1. avatar ‘liljoe says:

          How is Utah a tyrant state?

          One of the few states not to create a lockdown by official fiat but rather asked people to shelter in place voluntarily.

    3. avatar Ed Earl says:

      “Bloused pants, jackboots and all” sounds similar to that argument the libitards make about scary black rifles

  5. avatar Chris T in KY says:

    The widespread civilian ownership of machine guns would reduce these “accidents” to near zero.
    But white Liberals especially don’t want law abiding blacks, or anyone else, to own them. The Obama administration made sure select fire weapons were well distributed across the country to civilian police forces.

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      congress would never go for that…even the republicans don’t support it….

      1. avatar Chris T in KY says:

        In free states machine gun ownership isn’t regulated. But in slave states. States controlled by democrats. They are regulated.
        btw
        California, a slave state, made bump stocks and echo triggers illegal. No rapid fire weapons for the poor.

        1. avatar Wtf?! says:

          What are the states with no machine gun regulation?

        2. avatar ILExile says:

          Oklahoma has no state laws regarding machine guns last I checked. Probably the only one like that. Many states that allow them have a law that says “Allowed if in compliance with federal laws regarding them”. A weird quirk, but I don’t recall hearing of anyone causing trouble because of it.

        3. avatar JS says:

          Oregon, even being controlled by libs in Portland and Salem, has no laws to further restrict machine gun ownership past the NFA.

  6. avatar American Patriot says:

    There is no policing of the police, federal, state, county or city unless the left thinks it’s racial!

    1. avatar Brandan says:

      Excellent point. The Left’s hyper focus on racial issues blinds them to the true scope of the problem: an unrestrained, unresponsive, and unaccountable state. The Left (largely) presents this issue as one of politics and policy rather than one of power and the relationship between the leviathan and individual.

      Because (most) of them are statists. They don’t want to throw the ring into the volcano…they want it for themselves.

  7. avatar Unrepentant Libertarian says:

    When guns are outlawed, “There is no problem that can not be cured by a suitable application of high explosive”
    Just a quotation I heard years ago.

    1. avatar Chris Morton says:

      EFP is not a paranormal phenomenon…

    2. avatar Chris T in KY says:

      There was a time in this country when nearly every american used dynamite. Just as nearly every american had a gun. Yes the 2A is for bomb making as well in your own home.
      “Farming with Dynamite”
      “A Few Hints to Farmers”
      http://gutenberg.readingroo.ms/3/9/8/6/39869/39869-h/39869-h.htm

    3. avatar ILExile says:

      People don’t remember what it was like in the past. One- to two-thousand bombings a year in the late ’60s and early ’70s. Capone’s crew bombed over 100 places during prohibition. Yeah, shootings may be a bit more common outside the inner-city now than in the past, but bombings are nearly non-existent. 2nd Amendment, where recognized as a Right, allows us a chance to defend ourselves against a shooter. But a bomb? Often you don’t know there was one until it went off.

  8. avatar Green Mtn. Boy says:

    I have news, it already is happening here. What would one describe the Leftard governors violating Constitutional rights both federal and state in some cases,Sic semper Tyrannis ever vigilant , meaning Thus ever unto tyrants and the jackasses they rode in on.

  9. avatar anarchyst says:

    NEVER EVER CALL POLICE FOR ANYTHING…YOU are your own “first responder”.

    The “thin blue line” protects the bad cops. My relatives who are cops cannot understand my dislike for many “practices” that they consider “normal”. Attempts to engage them in Constitutional principles are met with deaf ears. THE LAW IS WHATEVER THEY SAY THE LAW IS.

    Their unwavering allegiance to those (bad) cops who exhibit “abnormal” life-threatening behavior (to us mundanes) and their “making excuses” for such aberrant behavior is sickening.

    You see, all police officers’ ultimate goal is to make it to retirement with as little friction as possible. In many departments, it is possible to retire after 30 years AND to start collecting Social Security at age 55–NOT 66 like the rest of us.

    In addition, disability claims (too many career lifetime donuts) quite often enable them to live a much more comfortable life than most of us taxpayers who provide these “centurions” with their comfortable lifestyle.

    Police work is not inherently dangerous IF they follow Constitutional principles.

    The militarization of police forces is another big problem. Police departments routinely recruit former military and do very little to change the “us vs. them” mindset that is a staple of military (combat) service.

    In fact, most department actually admire their “special” status and encourage such behavior with “no-knock” midnight SWAT raids and other unconstitutional behavior.
    As an aside, military “rules of engagement” are much stricter than that of civilian police departments.

    A small point (but valid, nevertheless) is that EVEN THE NAZIS KNOCKED ON THE DOOR BEFORE GAINING ENTRY.

    Every police officer who stands and watches his “brethren in blue” committing a crime is just as culpable.

    When the SHTF, it will be the uniform that those who have been transgressed upon will see. The (few) good cops will be lumped in with the bad cops…

    1. avatar frank speak says:

      cops are a varied lot…most good…some bad…can’t tar them all with one brush….

      1. avatar RedFox says:

        That’s the problem mindset right there. Yes you can. They wear the same uniform. One uniform does something all uniforms are responsible for that thing. Otherwise why where a uniform. Your education is failing you.

        1. avatar Ginder12 says:

          Wear. Your education is failing you. 😝😝😝

        2. avatar UpInArms says:

          ” One uniform does something all uniforms are responsible for that thing ”

          Yeah, that’s the ticket… kinda like one gun owner shoots up a school so all gun owners are responsible… yeah.

        3. avatar Not Impressed By Trolls says:

          Hmm, well I guess that means whenever an American commits any crime, especially a military member committing a war crime like Abu Ghraib, every American and soldier is guilty. Instead of a justice system that punishes people for their individual choices, let’s be communist and judge everyone as a class of people.

          And before you say “the police who stand by and do nothing are making a choice,” I’d ask you to cast the first stone and put your career/life on the line to confront this problem you feel is so systemic in our society that you want to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

    2. avatar Ron B says:

      Excrement, you are full of! What is “unconstitutional” about serving a warrant, ” issued by a judge or magistrate, justified by probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and must particularly describe the place to be searched and the persons or things to be seized?” Further, Police are restricted to the “acceptable loss,” of ZERO on both sides, unlike the military, ( made that point while being trained for room entries by SEALS!) As for “making it to retirement,” fewer than 1 in 30 ever do make it, and that is after the 1 in 100 are hired, 1 in 3 graduate the academy, 1 in 5 make it past the first year. So crawl back under your rock!!!

      1. avatar Sigmund Einstein says:

        So it takes 4500 applicants to get one cop?…. that has a 3.33% chance of making it to retirement?

        If that’s the case, you guys are more elite than the SEALs that taught you zero defect cqb.

        If one in 4500 applicants make it to being a cop…. and there’s 800,000 cops in the US…… we’ve got a population of 3.6 billion in the USA. That’s assuming EVERYONE even wants to be a super elite cop. Also assuming that half of all cops are females. If not, we’d need a bigger population.

        What else did your SEALs teach you?

        1. avatar Sigmund Einstein says:

          Sorry. Make it to the first year.

        2. avatar strych9 says:

          Tactical Beach Ball Balancing?

    3. avatar M says:

      So if you witness a crime such as kidnapping, battery, robbery, sexual assault..you will either intervene without calling the cops, with the risk of getting in trouble later for that, or you’ll just just pretend you didn’t see anything? Calling the cops is not always a bad thing, it can be a good way of covering your butt too, and it doesn’t mean you cannot intervene once you called 911.

    4. avatar M says:

      Cops get to retire sooner than most of us, but they also work crappy shifts, night shifts, and more weekends and holidays than a lot of us. They also deal with more stress than most other profession, whether you believe it or not. Their profession is also clearly more dangerous than the average, I don’t pull over vehicles with the risk of getting hit by a nutjob or drunk driver, or simply dealing with someone who has dope, a warrant and doesn’t want to go to jail. I don’t have to interact several times a week with junkies, homeless and mentally ill folks (often related), domestic violence, suicide by cop, excited delirium, folks with nasty diseases, filth, drunks, pathological liars, convicted felons, good boys about to “turn their lives around” and the list goes on. If many agencies have to hire questionable applicants, it’s also because a lot of folks with skills and education do not want to be cops for the reasons listed above. Sure in some places they probably have it easy, but in most agencies that’s certainly not the case. While none of this justifies some of the bad behavior and “mistakes” we have seen, you have some pretty big misconceptions about their job.

  10. avatar Steve says:

    Two cops under the cover of a welfare check came into a lady’s backyard in Dallas and killed her in her own house, her bedroom and the first thing they did was videotape a weapon, she had on a table by her bed, was not holding it. yep got it. Cops raided a house and killed a family in Houston, then said it was a wrong house. Got it. Then had the audacity to say the man had guns laying around when they broke in. Yeah they broke in, under the cover of a no-knock warrant…. police departments all over her just testing the waters to see how far they can push it, no not warrants and Welfare checks are the new Norm. I thought I smelled marijuana , I thought I smelled alcohol and this is a known drug area and you crossed the yellow line, they can pull you over and gave you a search and seizure

    1. avatar Chris Morton says:

      The Chicago Police Department routinely raids the wrong addresses, assaulting innocent people and point M4s at toddlers. As is SOP for the Chicago PD, they fight release of video evidence MUCH harder than they’ve ever fought the mafia.

      1. avatar frank speak says:

        urban police are usually less connected to the citizenry…especially if you are a minority…

      2. avatar JW says:

        but of course – toddlers never kick generous wads of cash their direction the way the mafia did

    2. avatar M says:

      The judge who signed the warrant is also to blame then, I believe some sign warrants within seconds they get them from the LEO, they probably read it as much as some of our Congressmen read the paperwork they sign.

  11. avatar Jason says:

    Some fair points here, but fuck Carl Drega. I was growing up in that area when he went on his murderous temper tantrum.

    Really? Driven to murder because he was held to zoning codes?

  12. avatar dph says:

    In before powerserge says they all deserved what they got.

    1. avatar pwrserge says:

      Somebody’s not reading what I’m actually writing.

      I do find it ironic that the same people who claim “you should just call the cops” instead of exercising your right to carry out a citizen’s arrest also bash the cops at every opportunity.

      1. avatar Chris Morton says:

        It was a cop who “bashed” Carolina Obrycka.

      2. avatar S.Crock says:

        Ahmad Arbury’s murderers had no legal or moral right to perform a citizens arrest. The most Ahmad possibly could have been guilty of that day was misdemeanor trespassing but honestly he wasn’t even guilty of that. Even if he did, that misdemeanor wouldn’t have legally justified a citizens arrest. There is no way to cut it other than three men grabbed guns and hopped in their trucks and gunned the man down. Did he reach for their shotgun? Absolutely and anyone in that situation would have done the same thing. Fight or flight. If he chose flight I bet there is a good chance they would have just shot him in the back as he ran away.

        1. avatar pwrserge says:

          Ok… I’ve debunked this several times, but here we go again.

          The elements of felony burglary in Georgia.

          – Entering a building (1st degree if a dwelling, occupied or otherwise)
          – Doing so without authority
          – Doing so with the intent to commit theft therein

          The Georgia citizen’s arrest statute only requires “reasonable and probable suspicion” in the case of arrest for a felony where the suspect is attempting to flee.

          The fist two elements are demonstrable via video evidence.
          The final element is inferable by SCotUS precedent when the felon in question fled after being confronted by a neighbor. (Illinois v. Wardlow)

          You may not like the law. We can debate the morality of their actions. However, none of that changes the black letter law and precedent.

          The reasonableness of their suspicion is the only question of fact for a jury to resolve.

        2. avatar S.Crock says:

          @pwrserge

        3. avatar enuf says:

          pwrserge, your continually spouting the same nonsense is not “debunking”.

        4. avatar chedolf says:

          Unlike the people who think their bad feels determine how the Arbery case should turn out, I’ve practiced criminal defense law, and I want to thank pwrserge for being virtually the only person here who’s making a serious effort to connect the facts to the relevant statutes.

        5. avatar Hans says:

          Crock said: Did he reach for their shotgun? Absolutely and anyone in that situation would have done the same thing. Fight or flight.

          Why not use the M Brown defense – hands up don’t shoot!

        6. avatar CWT says:

          A black man jogging through a white neighborhood in Georgia doesn’t give you any pause? I would question it the same way I would if it was a white guy jogging through a black neighborhood in Chicago, NY or LA and that is the least of my questions. Let’s be real about this.

      3. avatar Jason says:

        Militarized police and vigilante wannabes are both threats to a free, open, and sane society. Just because A is bad doesn’t B is good.

        Sometimes it’s like having to choose between a dogshit sandwich and a cat shit sandwich.

        1. avatar pwrserge says:

          I disagree… the old west, for all its faults, was a statistically safer place to live than most modern inner cities.

        2. avatar Jason says:

          Didn’t a number of old west towns infringe on the 2A by making people turn in their guns for the duration of their stay?

          Nothing will ever convince me that lynch mobs are a better option than a functioning legal system.

        3. avatar pwrserge says:

          Let me know when we have a functional legal system.

        4. avatar Jason says:

          I’ll take it over mob “justice”.

          We have an imperfect system, but name a country with a better one.

          I know it’s not your authoritarian wet dream of death squads, summary executions, and concentration camps for categories of people you don’t like, but a majority of non-psychopaths prefer it to the alternatives.

        5. avatar pwrserge says:

          Yeah… because communists didndu nutin… Preemptive self-defense is still self-defense.

        6. avatar Jason says:

          No, preemptive self defense is not self defense. I’m not allowed to snipe my neighbor through his kitchen window because I’m pretty sure he wants to kill me.

      4. avatar frank speak says:

        citizens arrest is a very risky thing to do…on a number of levels…

        1. avatar frank speak says:

          …..and “the old west” was a much different place than the way it is usually depicted in movies…

        2. avatar pwrserge says:

          Yes, much more boring.

      5. avatar M says:

        Imo a citizen’s arrest is begging for trouble to hit you full speed in the face. Using the appropriate amount of force if you must defend someone at risk of great bodily harm or to prevent a forcible felony, a mass shooting sure, but you won’t catch me doing a citizen arrest for a criminal mischief or a theft. Some people are starving for it, the opportunity will come, they’ll do something stupid and won’t be able to articulate in a statement and it will end up costing them $$$ because the local Sheriff or police isn’t going to pay their attorney fees, loss or partial loss of employment, etc.

  13. avatar Chris T in KY says:

    The problem with Liberals/ progressives, is they can complain all they want about cops. But the bottom line is that they totally trust law enforcement. They will never be honest and say it in public. And they don’t have to.
    They have publicly said only the police should have guns. That is proof enough that they totally trust the sysytem.

    1. avatar M says:

      Many liberals, socialists, leftists, commies, all of the above…absolutely dislike law enforcement and maybe the criminal justice system as a whole. They would surely be happy to have us locked up, beat up, have our guns taken away, etc but it doesn’t mean they like cops.

  14. avatar Tyrannosaurus Sex says:

    You decide to list Carl Drega as some kind of victim? Are you kidding?

    1. avatar Jason says:

      I was surprised the author didn’t list Tim McVeigh as a great American patriot.

      1. avatar enuf says:

        Agreed, that would fit well with Drega.

      2. avatar frank speak says:

        McVeigh sent a message…and it resonated with those that needed to hear it…whether they admitted it or not…and their subsequent actions confirmed that….

        1. avatar LampOfDiogenes says:

          Frank Speak,

          Sir, what you posted is beyond disgusting. I don’t give a rat’s @$$ WHAT Tim McVeigh’s “message” was – he was a fricking terrorist, plain and simple. He deserved to die, and I hope he burns in hell for eternity.

          If he wanted to “fight the man”? I’m pretty sure even a simpleton could locate an Army base, police precinct or whatever. You want to send a message? ADDRESS IT TO THE RIGHT RECIPIENT!!!

          And you are a dolt.

        2. avatar pwrserge says:

          Technically, he attacked a legitimate military target under the laws and customs of war… If he was out to rack up bodies, which is the primary objective of a terrorist, there were much softer targets to hit. Like him or not, agree with him or not, but terrorism has a very specific definition. He doesn’t fit it.

        3. avatar Jason says:

          A building full of paper pushers and a daycare using a truck bomb detonated when he was safely a way.

          My fucking hero.

        4. avatar Miner49er says:

          “legitimate military target under the laws and customs of war“

          Unfortunately, there was no declared war so he doesn’t get those protections.

          Sergei, I’m not surprised that you are attempting to justify an act of domestic terrorism against the United States.

        5. avatar pwrserge says:

          The governing conventions do not require a declared war.

          But sure, Nazi 69er… you can go ahead and put words in my mouth… again…

        6. avatar M says:

          pwrserge, how can you say that McVeigh doesn’t fit the description of a terrorist?

          Legal definition of terrorism: The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property in order to coerce or intimidate a government or the civilian population in furtherance of political or social objectives.

        7. avatar pwrserge says:

          That definition can also fit literally any act of war. Unless you’re going to argue that acts of war are inherently lawful.

        8. avatar CWT says:

          @pwrserge Sorry but I disagree with you completely on McVeigh. His act was the very definition of terrorism.

      3. avatar Henry Bowman says:

        McVeigh WAS a Patriot.

        He was fighting a war with ROE that were set by his enemy. The US Govt established two years before that killing women, children and non-combatants was completely allowable. He used that precedent in his attack.

        Don’t like that women, children and non-combatants got killed? Too damn bad. What did YOU do about Waco? Grumble under your breath and mutter about Clinton? Well, Tim McVeigh was satisfied with that.

        He took the fight right back to the people who started it, and gave them a taste of their own damn medicine.

        And it worked pretty well, didn’t it? Because we haven’t had anymore Waco’s have we?

        No, we haven’t.

        1. avatar Jason says:

          Wow. Your outlook is beyond monstrous.

          If that’s truly how you feel, I pity you and hope your psychopathy doesn’t adversely affect others.

        2. avatar Tyrannosaurus Sex says:

          >>“He took the fight right back to the people who started it, and gave them a taste of their own damn medicine.”<<

          So accepting, purely for sake of the argument, that there is a “fight” — the random lady walking across a parking lot started the fight? The people in the Oklahoma Water Resources office started the fight? The rescue workers killed by debris started the fight? The children in the day care center started the fight? Dozens of random people going about their lives deserved to die in your opinion?

          You anti-empathetic scum-sucking nut.

          The biggest “wacko” incident since 1993 is probably the hot air coming out of your mouth.

        3. avatar pwrserge says:

          Do you ask that question every time we drone some terrorist in the middle east? Collateral damage happens.

        4. avatar LampOfDiogenes says:

          I’m sorry, I didn’t realize I was engaging in discussion with the mentally handicapped. I will keep that in mind for future discussions with you, if I am unfortunate enough to have any.

          Pray, tell – under what POSSIBLE ROE or “rules of war” would the deliberate targeting of a building where the only “government” targets were administrative agencies . . . oh, and I forgot that day care center. How many kids did McVeigh murder???

          If McVeigh wanted to blow up a free-standing regional IRS building (and there are lots of them), or perhaps even a general government office building (although that is beyond stupid), I might have had some sympathy. A building containing a DAY CARE CENTER??????

          And there are DoD facilities within easy reach of the building he blew up.

          He was a scumbag, terrorist coward. Period. Dot.

          I hope Satan has some special plans for him. He deserves it ALL.

          Please GFY. You are an imbecile.

        5. avatar pwrserge says:

          The same laws and customs of war that let us drone a wedding in a non-belligerent country.

        6. avatar arc says:

          Someone gets it.

          Fighting is an ugly business.

        7. avatar M says:

          No we just had that family of ranchers killed by the feds in Oregon under suspicious circumstances.

        8. avatar enuf says:

          What a sick pair of idiots you and pwrserge are. Demented, amoral, anti-American and twisted as fuck.

        9. avatar Wtf?! says:

          Too bad he didn’t get that pos sniper that killed the mother holding her baby at Ruby Ridge and was later at waco…he should be punked for the rest of his days…

        10. avatar FN HP DA says:

          I wonder how many people know who your handle refers to…

  15. avatar LastOfTheOldOnes says:

    Good Morning or Hello are my only interactions with our wrongly labeled “To Protect And Serve” “heroes”.

    I have heard of only very few police that actually protect anyone, and most only serve their overlords in power. But then, most public “servants” are the same way.
    If it wasn’t for the sheriffs and their deputies who still believe, we would most likely already be living in “concentration” zones.

    As we we reach the point of maximum overload, remember that we must not go quietly into that long night. Anyone who believes this viewpoint is just a nutty conspiracy theory, I give you the words of patriot Samuel Adams:

    ““If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude better than the animating contest of freedom, go home from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains set lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen.”
    Samuel Adams”

  16. avatar fred rose says:

    Tyranny has been here for awhile. All Washington DC is is the largest in the world of a very well organized crime syndicate, with the FBI to help cover their tracks.

    We do have protection in our founding papers to take the initiative and stop this nonsense…but we’re all too scared, we just vote the usual and customary way that are parents and our parents parents voted for, and the crooked politicians know this, so year after year they pull their usual and customary illegal crap.

    Problem is, even if we did chose to go against the tyranny of Washington DC is that who ever we find to take over would eventually go down the same path that the current politicians have gone down. The new order simply eventually fulfills the old saying: Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. The politicians of America have gone from power to absolute power

  17. avatar Shire-man says:

    Pretty sure most folks are either side of the aisle are done with pretending tyranny can’t happen here and instead are jockeying for the prime position to drop the hammer on the other and from what I’ve been seeing a disgusting amount of the public at large seems eager to embrace their overlords.

    1. avatar strych9 says:

      +10

    2. avatar Jason says:

      There are no good guys.

  18. avatar chedolf says:

    Don’t forget Cory Maye, who wound up on death row for defending himself and his 18-month-old daughter in a case similar to the Kenneth Walker/Breonna Taylor police raid. Governor Haley Barbour refused to intervene with a pardon because, as Futurama put it, “he didn’t want to appear soft on people who’ve been falsely imprisoned.”

  19. avatar Scott Baker says:

    There are people still alive who remember first hand the Japanese internment camps.

    1. avatar MMfan says:

      Americans who worried about how Japanese immigrants and their descendants might behave during WW2 were plainly nuts.

      1. avatar pwrserge says:

        Well, they were Demokkkommies, given that party’s history, it’s to be expected.

    2. avatar frank speak says:

      that was a regrettable action…but the country was genuinely at risk at the time…and very distrustful of Japanese-Americans…obviously time proved them wrong…

      1. avatar LampOfDiogenes says:

        Yeah, scumbag, tell that to the people who spent years in internment camps . . . illegally, unconstitutionally, unfairly and unethically. I literally grew up with Susamo Satow coming to my house for dinner, regularly – he worked with my dad. Now, dimwit, Google “Susamo Satow” and Ken Burns’ “The War”.

        You are literally too stupid to breathe. Please stop stealing oxygen.

      2. avatar Ben L says:

        Time proved them wrong??? Did you ever hear of due process??? My FFL once said the great tragedy of this was that we KNEW BETTER but we did it anyway. Citizens lost their homes and belongings, livelihoods, and never received fair compensation (and no, $20,000 doesn’t come closer to being fair…).

      3. avatar pwrserge says:

        Yeah… let’s defend putting people in camps not because of what they chose, but because of what they are… Brilliant.

      4. avatar Nanashi says:

        No it wasn’t. FBI head Hoover, himself incredibly racist even by the norms of the day, said the Democrat party’s actions were not needed. EO9066 was PURELY to settle FDR’s long standing racial grudge, one he wrote essays about during the interwar, and use their stolen property to enrich his allies.

      5. avatar Mister Fleas says:

        “that was a regrettable action…but the country was genuinely at risk at the time…and very distrustful of Japanese-Americans…obviously time proved them wrong…”

        No, it has not proved them wrong. Speaking in gross generalities, significant numbers of Japanese residents, naturalized citizens, and even native born citizens of Japanese descent were disloyal in the countries in which they resided. In China, the Japanese were happy to betray their allegiances and collaborate with the Japanese conquerors. In Davao, Philippines the Japanese residents acted as a Fifth Column, for which they paid a terrible price near the end of the war. For the latter, see:https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=sDRlAAAAIBAJ&sjid=R4kNAAAAIBAJ&pg=2656,1332631&hl

        The Japanese-Americans gave practically no help to the F.B.I. in rooting out security risks, even though MAGIC had made it clear that there were extensive contacts between the Japanese Imperial espionage service and Japanese-American citizens prior to the Pearl Harbor attack. Assisting the F.B.I. would have helped bolster their claim that they were innocent, yet they refused to help…think about that.

        Then there is this MAGIC intercept:

        May 19,1941, from Los Angeles (Nakauchi) to Tokyo:

        “We have already established contact with absolutely reliable Japanese in San Pedro and San Diego area, who will keep close watch on all shipments of airplanes and other war material.

        We shall maintain connection with our second generations who are at present in U.S. Army to keep us informed of various developments in the army.

        We also have connections with our second generations working in aircraft plants for intelligence purposes.”

        That MAGIC intercept alone proves the Japanese government successfully used Japanese-Americans as assets, and they whole “Japanese-American community was entirely innocent” is b.s.

        Another interesting fact was that damn few of the military age males in the internment camps volunteered for service during war, 3% in fact(they were not subject to the draft). Didn’t they love America and want to serve her? Would have been an excellent opportunity to demonstrate their loyalty to their country and rebuke the people that accused them of disloyalty.

  20. avatar former water walker says:

    Tyranny is already here in ILLinois. Jabba the Prickster(who paid $172000000! to become .gov)decides if you starve,do business or go to church. For your own good…and little Lightfoot in Chiraq is worse. Neither has ever held public office! Jabba feels “threatened”.

  21. avatar enuf says:

    DAN ZIMMERMAN – YOU SHOULD DELETE THIS TOPIC.

    Including Carl Drega is a grotesque error in judgement. The man murdered people over a dispute about a river bank eroding his property. But that wasn’t even who he first murdered, he began by killing people having absolutely nothing to do with his dispute.

    He killed New Hampshire state trooper Scott Phillips over a traffic stop. The officer, wounded, fled into a field. Drega followed and executed Phillips.

    Next, he killed Trooper Leslie Lord at a distance of fifty yards before the officer could get out of his patrol vehicle.

    Drega then went after Colebrook District Court judge Vickie Bunnell, who he held a grudge against. She saw him coming with his rifle and alerted office staff to evacuate. As she ran away, Drega shot her in the back, killing her.

    Drega next killed Dennis Joos, a local newspaper editor who attempted to wrestle the gun away from him.

    New Hampshire Fish & Game warden Wayne Saunders was Drega’s next victim. Shot multiple times while still in his vehicle, Saunders put it in reverse and ran his vehicle into a river to escape.

    Drega had crossed from New Hampshire into Vermont and took a position to ambush officers. He sprang the ambush, wounding three. New Hampshire state trooper Jeffrey Caulder was shot in the lower abdomen, trooper Robert Haase in the foot and Border Patrolman John Pfeifer was hit in the chest.

    Finally as Drega stepped out from behind a tree to shoot more officers, he was killed by trooper Charles West’s M14 rifle and by a 12 gauge slug from Border Patrolman Stephen Brooks Remington 870.

    Drega is no martyr against tyranny. He slaughtered people over a minor dispute that most of them had no part in.

    1. avatar Jason says:

      Thank you.

      If I believed in hell, I’d hope Drega is rotting in it. And while Waco was criminally mismanaged by the feds, I feel the same about Koresh. Women and children should not have died, but he was a cult leader and fuck all those types.

      1. avatar frank speak says:

        Waco was just another example of the ATF trying to justify their existence…so was Ruby Ridge….

      2. avatar Truckman says:

        the only thing with that on Koresh he could have been picked up many different times in town but they wanted to go inside the building where they thought they had a bunch of weapons so this whole thing was set up by the ATF and FBI I am old enough to remember watching on TV but this is nothing compared to other things done to try and push major gun restriction If you want to think about weird things to take a look at the building in Ok city and think how a truck bomb did that damage sitting on the street when a truck bomb like that was set off in the twin towers in parking Garage and did not cause major damage and also there was also ATF and FBI offices in the building but no employees showed ou at least this is my understanding the only thing know for sure it took everybody’s mind off of WACO and there are other things like that just look stuff up

        1. avatar Jason says:

          Fucking underage girls as well as weapons charges.

        2. avatar clst says:

          FBI in Oklahoma City is and was housed in a different building several miles away from the Murrah building. The ATF had an office in the building and ATF employees were killed and injured. The Secret service was also housed in the building, the husband of a friend of my wife was killed, he was a Secret Service agent. Several people were killed in the Social Security office along with 20 children under the age of 5 who were in the day care.
          McVeigh was no hero or patriot, he was a cringing coward.

        3. avatar pwrserge says:

          Desperate men do desperate things, and tyranny breeds despair.

      3. avatar pwrserge says:

        I fail to see how you get to decide what is and is not a cult. You might not have agreed with Koresh, but he had every right to his beliefs and morally, did nothing wrong until the goon squads showed up to kick his door down.

        1. avatar Jason says:

          Yes it was handled all wrong. They should have nabbed him on his daily jog and see if they could have made the charges they had stick.

          He was denied due process and that was wrong.

          Still, fuck all zealots and their dumbfuck sheep followers.

        2. avatar pwrserge says:

          Do you even know what he was accused of?

        3. avatar Matt says:

          @powerserge
          Haven’t you spent countless threads recently stating that it only matters what the law says and now here you go saying he was morally right….

          Consistency 100%

  22. avatar enuf says:

    “So You Think Tyranny Can’t Happen Here?
    By Miguel A. Faria, M.D.”

    Alright, including Carl Drega in your list of martyrs to tyranny shows what your agenda is. You are one of those damnable crackpots out on the fringe. Please go away and stop bothering people.

    Better still, go back to Cuba, clean up your socialist paradise. America has no need of the likes of you.

  23. avatar Matt in Oklahoma says:

    Clickbait

  24. avatar daveinwyo says:

    Many years ago I was a sheriff’s reserve deputy.
    I took the 3-4 month weekend gual course.
    One of the classes was the “probable cause” segment.
    The sheriff deputy giving the class was way overweight, kind of an ass and always had a donut in his hand.
    He took great delight in listing all the ways you could use PC to stop someone.
    Most of the ways were borderline illegal or just plain mean spirited “gotchas”.
    He was so distasteful that at the end of the class at the closing “any questions” I asked the head instructor “when do we all get fat and turn into assholes”.
    A nasty letter went to my local town cop that said I had a bad attitude.
    This article is as true now as it was 30+ years ago.

  25. avatar enuf says:

    No Knock raids should themselves be a felony in any scenario other than hostage rescue.

  26. avatar Anvil Jenkins says:

    Why gun owners align themselves with, and support police, has always been a mystery to me. These are the people who have demonstrated time and time again that they will follow ANY order, no matter how much it infringes the rights of the citizens they are supposed to serve.

    If the last few months has shown us anything, it’s that POLICE ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS.

    They are there to enforce the edicts of the politicians who pay them. That’s who they are loyal to, and that is who they will serve.

    Wake up, gun owners. Wake the F’ up.

    1. avatar arc says:

      I only support duly elected sheriffs; they can be held to account by voters.

  27. avatar LampOfDiogenes says:

    Gee, too bad Kenneth Walker didn’t have a dog those cops could have shot, too.

    Cops used to have my respect. Now, it’s incumbent on them to EARN my respect.

    If these cops don’t get prosecuted, cops around the country are going to find that middle-of-the-night raids, knock or not – are going to be a LOT more risky. As well they should be.

    I think it’s time to start making the police personally liable for s*** like this – and if they don’t have the money, attach their pensions, and if that isn’t enough, bill the police pension fund.

    They need some ‘skin in the game’.

  28. avatar ATTAGReader says:

    Anyone who thinks it can’t happen here, please go to the Museum of the Cherokee Nation in Cherokee NC. Bypass the casino. You will find that the US government employed concentration camps and a Bataan march of civilians against the Cherokee, whose “crime” was living where gold had been found. It’s our own little Holocaust, and like the later one, was not made up.

    1. avatar Mister Fleas says:

      That of course ignores the more, shall we say, “traditional” bands of Cherokees were raiding white settlements as late as 1838. It is not so black and white.

  29. avatar The OTHER Larry in Texas says:

    What I don’t understand is that I have seen several mentions of the boyfriend of the EMT has a concealed carry permit. I don’t know the law there, is it required for keeping a handgun in your residence? In Houston, after someone protects him/herself on their property with a handgun, I have watch the reporters on the scene ask the police if the victim has a concealed carry permit.

    1. avatar AD of the Hinterlands says:

      A concealed carry permit is NOT required in KY. – not even to carry concealed. There has been much mention of the fact that this guy had one. I’m not sure why other than that it illustrates that this guy was not the droid they were looking for.

  30. avatar Ted Wasonosong says:

    Tyranny already happened…

    I can’t publicly state that I’m a Christian that believes homosexuality is a sin. If I do, I’ll lose my job.

    My taxpayer dollars pay for police snipers atop libraries while they host DragQueenStory hour.

    I work three days a year for tax money to send to Israel. And I can’t even criticize this because of BDS laws.

    If I tell the truth about the Holocaust, I get banned from Twitter and TTAG.

    We already have tyranny.

    1. avatar Arc says:

      Well said. I’ve been removed for a whole bunch of places for opposing trannies, questioning the WuFlu, demanding that I have rights over my own body, etc.

      Hateful people are running the show, keep stacking.

    2. avatar Mister Fleas says:

      “I work three days a year for tax money to send to Israel. And I can’t even criticize this because of BDS laws.

      If I tell the truth about the Holocaust, I get banned from Twitter and TTAG.”

      Sorry about that Holocaust Denier/Nazi.

  31. avatar Jimmy Beam says:

    Where are all the “blue line” bootlickers?? “There are good cops!” “One rotten apple spoils the barrel!” “They’re just looking out for us!”

    1. avatar pwrserge says:

      The truth is, as always, in between the two extremes.

  32. avatar arc says:

    Tyranny has already happened here and most of the people willingly go along with it. I was about to enter my favorite gourmet shop but they had a poster up, TL;DR, NO MASK, NO SERVICE, Curb side service available for “the unmasked”… aka, all you other people, you people who refuse to submit, you people who refuse the mark of the beast.

    Just for the next step when signs like that say road side service for anyone not chipped with a vaccination record, or people who are too white, or have the wrong party on their fancy, new, ID card with RFID chip and if you enter without it being scanned, you are trespassing, and If you are not supportive of the new communist party of America, certain services are illegal to render to you.

    I looked in through the window with my best-est lost puppy look but no one was visible from the door to render this “service”. I just wanted some coarse grind coffee, nothing crazy.

    I turned away with my money to go shop somewhere else but the person I was with had a used bandana and I ended up going inside to get what I wanted. Had I not been looking for a specific gift for a specific person, I still would have gone somewhere else; but, said person really likes the coffee there. I still feel filthy for submitting even for ten minutes and I’ve taken two showers today.

    All this fuss over a 0.0015% chance of even encountering someone with WuFlu in my county, much less catching it.

  33. avatar Jimmy Beam says:

    Remember this the next time you are determined to go to a lockdown demonstration armed. The cops and the feds will be there, taking pictures of you and your gear, and filing that away for future reference. They’ll also be collecting aggregate data from all the cellphones in the area. Better to go while you are carrying concealed, and buy a burner phone at Walmart if you absolutely need to text while you’re there.

  34. avatar Mick says:

    Seeing how most of the US has been living under tyranny for the last two months…yes, yes it can happen here and it already is happening.

  35. avatar strych9 says:

    This is one of those areas where I think we need to be careful about seeing patterns that are not really there. I’ve talked about this pattern recognition/creation system in our brain here before and it’s important to realize that it’s not just “Karen” or “other people” that fall victim to it. We can too.

    Honestly, I’d say that while some of these events are disturbing they are pretty rare. Out of ~900,000 LEOs nationwide how many participate in such activities/behaviors? I would guess it’s a small number.

    Now, is those bad apples being protected by some portion of the other LEOs a problem? Yes, absolutely, but we need to be careful not to blow this out of proportion and start painting all LE as bad guys.

    Yeah, I’ve had run-ins with overzealous and, quite frankly, outrageous police officers in my life. But I’ve got more friends in LE I can pick up the phone and dial right this moment than I’ve had bad encounters. Sure, that’s subjective but I really kinda doubt it’s rare. If it was we’d have more problems than we really do.

    A lot of people say that LE will just follow orders no matter how atrocious those orders are. I doubt that. Dollars to doughnuts half go home on day one. More leave in the following week. If nothing else, self-preservation dictates this. Cops are not a combat force, they’ll get obliterated by a sufficiently ticked off citizenry and it doesn’t take much really. Half a dozen people in each city nationwide decide they’ve had enough and each of those six decides to “drop a cop”… that’s 13% of LE gone right there. If, on average, they get two police before being taken down, cops just took 26% casualties nationwide. That’s not a fight I think the police want and it’s one I’m DAMN sure they can’t win. I would suspect that the cops are keenly aware of how outnumbered they are. The town I live outside of has 46 officers and 41,254 residents. That’s 896.8 residents per cop. Why do you think they backed up so quick after that shit in the park ended up as international news?

    Look, this is an area where I think we need a concerted effort for accountability. That’s beyond argument in my mind. However, we need to be somewhat careful not to turn this into a us vs. them thing with the cops because it’s not. It’s citizens vs. corruption. Mostly I think that comes from three places: Unions, Politicians and the brass. Those are things we can change fairly easily actually.

    To me a lot of this is like people complaining about how much the school system sucks while flatly refusing to attend PTA and School Board meetings.

    1. avatar D Y says:

      “A lot of people say that LE will just follow orders no matter how atrocious those orders are. I doubt that. ”

      Pick a law that you know to be unconstitutional. I would go for red flag laws as a good example to demonstrate where I am going with this.

      Call the LEO’s you know, and ask them if they were tasked with executing a red flag order, would they? That’s your answer.

      Unfortunately even in instances where police have great discretion and should probably use it, the citizen ends up paying. What was the name of the lady on the east coast that was arrested for accidentally carrying a gun into New Jersey? Why wasn’t that a warning and move on? Why destroy someone’s life over a mistake? I realize that is one instance. But there are far too many “one offs” for me to believe the majority of LEO is going to look the other way when my guns or magazines get banned, and I keep using them in public areas.

      1. avatar strych9 says:

        Again, we should be careful not to confuse anecdote for actual reality.

        A short story on how power dynamics work, and how far perceived authority goes.

        Years back a bunch of us went out into the middle of nowhere to go shooting and camping. We were staying the night and so, there was beer in plain sight. And a fuckload of guns. And American flags.

        A Sheriff’s deputy rolls up about an hour before dark and takes a hard line with my buddy about the booze+guns thing even though he has no evidence that anyone is drunk while shooting. He makes outrageous claims about the law. Claims that are patently untrue. He’s kinda on a power trip but it’s also kinda understandable since drunks cause trouble in the area from time to time, often flipping 4wheelers and wrecking dirt bikes where evac by helicopter becomes a necessity. People have also drunkenly fired into campsites and wounded or killed people.

        So, he’s starting to get that “respect my authoritah!” attitude, and get loud about it. He does this right up until, from his point of view, a bit over a dozen people with rifles slung and holstered sidearms pour out of the woodwork.

        Not a single person was aggressive towards the Deputy. No one handled a firearm. No one was drinking. We were offering him sandwiches and coffee in fact. Very demur… but armed.

        Yet the guy’s demeanor changed instantly. Suddenly he went from confrontational to “just seeing if we need anything”. Suddenly that was the entire reason for him “stopping by”, basically a “How is my department serving you so far?” type of visit. Ya know, a survey.

        Riiiiiiiiight. I’m sure it had nothing whatsoever with him realizing he was outmanned 15:1 by a bunch of well armed folks who could drop him before he managed to touch the PTT button on his radio. Nothing to do with being alone 40 minutes from backup. Nah, he just stopped by to see how we were doing and the first few minutes were just his Tourette’s acting up.

        At this point we all start jabbering in this mix of redneckese and military slang that he obviously is bewildered by. You can watch the blood drain out of his face. He’s not here to see how we’re doing anymore. Now he wants to know if there’s anything he can go get us. Anything to get away from his current location. Perhaps a vehicle needs a battery, he’d be more than happy to go get it for us. (Just get me the fuck away from these people!)

        Some cops perceive themselves to be in charge. Others see themselves as talking to their bosses. The former often become the latter when the perception is that their badge, radio and gear won’t save their ass if this goes sideways.

        And as to your question, no none of these LE giys I’m friends with will enforce a red flag law. We have such laws in this state and every of these dudes will refuse to enforce them. In fact, they won’t enforce the 2014 laws either and, in reality, will help you break them. Any time someone leaves the state there’s text back and for about who needs what brought back from the “free states”.

        These are the dudes who stand there in uniform at an LGS, watch someone buy a G19 with “illegal mags” and instead of “doing something” advise the buyer to go to the back wall and grab some fun sticks to add to the purchase.

    2. avatar Ron B says:

      The “us versus them” mentality goes both ways. I have known officers who view it this way sometimes. It is somethinv like being told while I was working, “don’t take it personally.” I always took cases personally, I took an oath to protect people, and criminals who committed crimes against those I protected had insulted me! I took the attitude that there was no place too far, or deep enough to hide from me in seeking out the wrongdoer. The closest I ever got to “us vs. them” was during riot situations, taking back the streets from looters (oj riots, soccer riots) and that was just a numbers thing. If a cop committed a crime, I would be the first to step up to arrest them. Like another poster said, in most cases you see in the news, the truth is somewhere in between what they publish, and what really happened. I have seen too many stories in the news, where I have been there for what happened, and could not tell it was the same incident, from the story.

      1. avatar D Y says:

        I can certainly understand searching for a criminal that has wronged or harmed someone. Stolen from them, assaulted them, etc. To me that is morally very clear cut.

        But when LEO are asked (or told) to enforce laws that are unjust, immoral, or unconstitutional, would you? My state bans 30rd magazines. You pull me over for a failed taillight. You see a pile of magazines in my truck. I’m being cited or let go on my way? “Its the law” is not a justification to enforce the infringement of rights. As far as I’m aware, all LEO oaths swear to support and defend the Constitution, not just blindly enforce laws.

      2. avatar strych9 says:

        I think there’s a difference between “taking it personally” when you’re looking for a criminal who has harmed an innocent as opposed to “taking it personally” when someone doesn’t instantly kowtow to your authority or your perception of having said authority.

        It’s the latter people who are the problem. They’re out there. I’ve met them. I simply don’t think they’re anywhere near a majority of police. Most cops would rather go looking for actual criminals, and get those criminals off the streets, rather than jam up some citizen over a technicality or perceived insult.

        To some extent I’m sure it has to do with the agency’s prevailing attitude and the prevailing attitude of the public in that locality and, to some extent, the state or region. While I don’t agree with the law in NJ I’m fairly confident that the officer involved in that was taking into account, consciously or not, that he was in/near Camden (the lady in question, if I’m thinking of the same story as D Y, had accidentally crossed the Ben Franklin and was trying to turn around. That very likely puts her IN Camden.

        Now, I would argue that the location doesn’t matter in terms of the 2A but that’s not how the human mind tends to work. The guy has been told there’s a law to enforce and even if he doesn’t like that law the location makes it more likely that he will enforce it because Camden isn’t exactly the nicest place on the planet, I’ve gotten lost there exactly the way she did. In fact, Camden is the most violent city in NJ. This has led to a prevailing attitude among police, politicians and the general law abiding public in that area. A zeitgeist if you will. That’s likely to rub off on the individual officers. That sucks but it’s unavoidable.

        That means it’s likely that cops subconsciously assume that guns in Camden are more likely to be “crime guns” and the person having them is more likely to be a criminal than someone they catch in, say, Princeton or Oxford Township (my dad’s family is from NJ, I’ve spent time there). So, they’re more likely to be hardasses about it because of the way our brain finds, seeks and creates patterns.

        1. avatar D Y says:

          But should we tolerate heavy handed approaches, regardless of the motivation or experiences of those engaging with the public?

          I look at much of it like this: being LEO is a choice. With that choice comes responsibility and danger. But to counteract those, LEO’s receive specific training and specific equipment to preserve their lives. Hopefully preserving the lives they interact with. As a for-instance, a young man of any color, in any area of this country, deserves exactly the same sort of interaction. An experience with LEO should not change based on the weaponry or numbers of people involved. Don’t act like a dic*, and if the interaction isn’t necessary, don’t have it.

          I’d LOVE to hear even close to the same numbers of refusals to enforce red flag laws as I do for enforcement of them. I’m sure that would work out like DGU’s, how many times does it happen that we don’t hear about, because of politics, etc.? I’m willing to give LEO the benefit of the doubt. But seeing what IS enforced, and the situations too many LEO’s put themselves or others into, I have doubt that it’s a majority that refuse to enforce such laws. I’d rather not, but I just do. I’ve personally known ones I’d consider to be heavy handed, and I’ve had run-ins with that type as well.

        2. avatar strych9 says:

          “But should we tolerate heavy handed approaches, regardless of the motivation or experiences of those engaging with the public?”

          No, but we should try to understand this kind of thing because understanding the problem makes it far easier to address in a sensible manner. Then we can look at individual cases and come to relatively proper conclusions about the specifics rather than sloganeering.

          The example I give is this: There are a number of shootings that people tend to find outrageous. Yeah, well many of them are a result of how our brain functions. The political fallout usually is as well.

          When we look carefully at those truly “outrageous” shootings what we tend to find is a spiraling pattern of behavior, often on both sides, which is related to the pattern seeking/creating nature of our brain. If we stopped and recognized this fact we could stop the spiral right there on both the individual and the group levels. On the individual level we probably could prevent a lot of the shootings. On the group level we could definitely prevent riots like Ferguson and Baltimore while still upholding justice for those individuals who have really done wrong.

          However, we don’t do that because 1) people are generally ignorant of these facts, 2) it’s not politically advantageous to any major players and 3) we’re a tribalistic species so this kind of thing actually runs counter to our initial instincts. I mean, how many people do you think recognize that in the wrong circumstances pulling out a cellphone can get you shot because the other person really does see a gun that doesn’t exist because their brain created that image for them?

          The issues in addressing this don’t make the problem intractable though. We can greatly reduce the problems and the tension which means that actual discussions to find the truth of each individual incident can occur.

          You can see this issue in race relations, individual shootings of unarmed people (regardless of the color of those involved), the drug war and… well, all over the place. That’s highly problematic because a free society places emphasis on the individual, but that freedom requires that we look carefully and individual responsibility and individual instances. The latter two are almost impossible to accomplish when we paint with a broad brush and create patterns that don’t really exist. We end up arguing past each other and establishing yet more false patterns. Freedom suffers when we do this.

  36. avatar M says:

    Most people are getting used to tyranny, those who control the world (or parts of it) have understood over decades of observation and experiments on populations that, if you do it step by step, most folks will be fine with it. This COVID19 made up crisis is a good example, don’t expect everything to go back the way it was before, because it won’t. Gas will go back up in price that’s for sure, it already is here, freedom? Not so much, and “they” don’t give a rat ass of the Bill of Rights, whether we have guns, or not. “They” know most people are too deeply enslaved in materialism, routine, and other superficial things regulated by our society, that even with all the guns in the world people would not revolt. We are much softer than our ancestors, and “they” know it.
    Over 1 billion of Chinese are afraid of their government, Europe and most of S.America are still in full lock down, people are treated like cattle and they just take it. We are no longer any better than that, I believe we shave lost what used to make us special. I have slightly more faith in American compared to most of the rest of the world, but I won’t hold my breath for Trump to “drain the swamp” or for that revolution or civil war, won’t happen folks, and “they” know it.

    1. avatar Garrison Hall says:

      I will argue that rather being “enslaving” as you describe, materialism—as engendered by market-capitalism—is the single liberating force in human history. Having access to material resources easily equates with liberty and freedom which is one reason totalitarians are so skittish having individually empowered (and, dare I say. armed) citizens around who might just decide to challenge their power should they decide to become tyrannical. In the movie version we’d have air-dropped pallets of arms and ammo into the Warsaw Ghetto and into Budapest during the Hungarian Uprising. And given it’s location, history, and wealth, I can’t imagine that discrete discussions with gun-runners aren’t going on right now in Hong Kong. Freedom, liberty, and personal wealth are great motivators.

  37. avatar Duane says:

    The only thing worst then a bad government is no government.

    1. avatar arc says:

      This is debatable. In absence of government, people will form their own local governments and enforcement. I don’t mind pulling patrol duty through my home town to keep looters at bay and ensure people can continue to work locally. Most people just want to work, make money, raise a family, etc, and not have to worry about crazies and criminal elements.

      The cities would be hit hard by a “lack of government” the countryside, not so much.

  38. avatar Steve says:

    Wow a subject most of us can agree on, but it’s a bad one , but I’m seeing a lot of Investigations and a lot of cops and judges being arrested lately, the sheriff in Arizona is a doozy

  39. avatar Hans says:

    avatar pwrserge says:
    May 22, 2020 at 20:03

    Technically, he attacked a legitimate military target under the laws and customs of war… If he was out to rack up bodies, which is the primary objective of a terrorist, there were much softer targets to hit. Like him or not, agree with him or not, but terrorism has a very specific definition. He doesn’t fit it.

    Insert one oversized foot in mouth. This post should go into Dolt Hall of Fame!

  40. avatar lepke says:

    “Now I will tell you the answer to my question. It is this. The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others; we are interested solely in power, pure power. What pure power means you will understand presently. We are different from the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we are doing. All the others, even those who resembled ourselves, were cowards and hypocrites. The German Nazis and the Russian Communists came very close to us in their methods, but they never had the courage to recognize their own motives. They pretended, perhaps they even believed, that they had seized power unwillingly and for a limited time, and that just around the corner there lay a paradise where human beings would be free and equal. We are not like that. We know what no one ever seizes power with the intention of relinquishing it. Power is not a means; it is an end. One does not establish a dictatorship in order to safeguard a revolution; one makes the revolution in order to establish the dictatorship. The object of persecution is persecution. The object of torture is torture. The object of power is power. Now you begin to understand me.”
    George Orwell
    1984

  41. avatar Steve says:

    I don’t know, the Clinton crime bill back in 94 brought up all the same emotions in the 2A crowd. Waco and Ruby Ridge were very fresh in our heads at the time. Everyone I knew was stocking up and paying crazy prices to do so. People taking of FEMA camps and the military being trained to disarm civilians. Even stuff about bringing in a foreign army to do the dirty work of collecting weapons from US citizens. All scary at the time, and none of it happened. Time went on. And now to see everyone getting all riled up over this pandemic it just looks like the same thing. Time will pass and things will get better. This battle between right and left and gun haters and gun lovers just keeps the money flowing in for both sides. Why would anyone want that to stop?

  42. avatar Ed Earl says:

    The high number of commenters on this board who appear to be everything that the Anti-2nd Amendment Libitards claim about gun owners never ceases to amaze me.

    Anyone who thinks The Oklahoma City Bombing mass murderer was some kind of patriot should smoke a turd in hell with his putrid soul.

    Some hero. The sniveling, baby murdering coward had the means and opportunity to go one on one with Trooper Charlie Hanger and he folded like little bitch he was.

    1. avatar Wtf?! says:

      Like that mega turd lon horiuchi who shot a mother while she was holding her baby and the mega turds at waco…the fbi and atf…

      1. avatar Ed Earl says:

        Randy Weaver was Special Forces trained. He knew or should have known that he and Harris, carrying rifles and running towards the cabin, would draw fire towards his wife and children. I think he thought he could hide behind them. Both Weaver and the Waco Wacko had numerous opportunities to surrender and try their cases in the court of public opinion.

        btw NOTHING that happened at either place justifies the killing of over a dozen children from 6 months to 5 yrs in OKC by that murdering coward.

        1. avatar Wtf?! says:

          By murdering coward/cowards, you mean lon, atf and fbi…right?! It’s funny you don’t feel the same about the 2 dozen children at waco and the mother and boy or fight just as hard for these innocents…cowards are cowards…stop sticking up for other cowards just because they hide under the banner of supposed justice.

        2. avatar Garrison Hall says:

          Ruby Ridge—what happened to Randy Weaver and his family is an analog for what happened decades later to Gen. Flynn. The two incidents are just separate pages from the same playbook.

        3. avatar EdEarl says:

          Wtf? You are entitled to your own opinion, but not your own facts. The “22” that Sammy Weaver fired at a Federal Agent was actually a Ruger Mini-14 in .223. Randy Weavers Wife was concealed behind the door. The FBI sharpshooter never saw her, she was killed by mistake when he was taking a second shot at Kevin Harris (who had already killed 1 Federal Agent) . When you refer to the children at Waco you must mean the ones who were shot with handguns or stabbed to death by the wacko’s loyal minions inside the compound over a month and a half after the last Agent was pulled back to the perimeter.

          When I used the term murdering coward, make no mistake, I meant no one other than the murdering coward who detonated a truck bomb in Oklahoma City and when he was confronted by a single officer armed only with a handgun, he folded like a paper napkin.

          The simple fact that you are choosing to ignore is that everyone you are talking about would be alive today if the Weaver and the Waco Wacko had surrendered. They both had multiple opportunities.

          The children at the Murrah Building never had that choice.

          The Waco Wacko obviously didn’t care about children beyond his perverted sexual pleasures. Weaver chose to continue to place his wife and children in danger, and the murdering cowardly bomber told his own attorney that he merely considered those babies to be collateral damage.

          Why do you idolize them?

        4. avatar Wtf?! says:

          You sent that reply to yourself…I don’t idolize them, but it sounds like you idolize those who would infringe on other’s rights…such as the 2nd amendment…”shall not be infringed…” ring a bell? Fbi goes hunting down a family for a sawed off shotgun? They won 3 million after suing, so excuse me if I don’t put much weight on “your” facts. Sounds like you might have worked for some government “thugs” or do.

  43. avatar BusyBeef says:

    Our police are increasingly militarized, oppressive, and bad shots.

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