From TTAG Commentator Magoo:
Very often, robberies and assaults are not cold calls. The potential perp will first approach you with some pretense — asking for a dollar, for directions, for a ride, etc. This person is some combination of desperate, mentally disturbed, and criminal, and in these first few moments he’s deciding whether he might rob you, or whether or not you are Satan, or that maybe he’d like to kick your ass for the hell of it.
This is how many people get robbed by criminals/attacked by crazy people / both. The victim thinks he is merely trying to extract himself from an awkward social situation, not realizing until it’s too late that the confrontation is about to turn violent. In fact, these first moments are crucial.
First, never engage or argue with these people. Make it totally clear with your voice, actions, and body language that you want no conversation or contact and that you are not a suitable victim. Understanding who you are dealing with will get you out of more situations than a gun ever will.
And for those who won’t take “no” for an answer, it’s good to have additional options.
Walk with a purpose, exhibit meaningful situational awareness, and don’t allow distractions.
My wife insisted on shopping at the downtown mall in a prior city. The parking garage was known as a high crime area. Meandering aimlessly, searching for a lost car draws predators. Paying more attention to your bags than your surroundings allows them to mark you as prey. Digging in that purse for a ringing phone while standing in a bad area is a no-no. We went over this a long time ago.
Known where you parked, speed walk to the car, with keys in hand, look around you constantly. Any fiddling with bags, adjusting the purse, etc. should be done before leaving the mall doors. I couldn’t get her to shoot a gun, much less carry one. But she always had a can of mace in her hand.
Sounds exactly like Lloyd Center Mall here in Portland. The parking garage (and the gang-infested city park next door) are usually reliable for at least a few dozen muggings and two homicides a year. Gun or no gun, we shop elsewhere.
Then again, this guy thinks he’s some sort of mind reader who can always tell the intentions of the person(s) approaching him.
The phrase “F you and F your mother” delivered with “crazy eyes” has an amazingly high 100% effectiveness rate of discouraging further contact, in my experiences.
I say The Bubble is a nice place. Too bad I left it once I knew the truth about Santa.
“[H]’es deciding whether he might rob you or whether or not you are Satan”
If he tries to violently rob me, then yes, I will be Satan and, if necessary, I’ll send the bastard straight to hell. Metaphorically speaking, of course.
If he’s mentally disturbed and/or high or drunk (which I assume you implied), your credo may not always work, by the very nature of the person’s unpredictability. That’s when you need options. I am very well versed in self defense, but to be perfectly blunt, some people I wouldn’t want any physical contact with, nor would I want to give him the time for any buddies to come help him. Just a general concern of blood borne pathogens or open sores and staph infections that junkies have, not to mention scabies, lice, etc. were things I had to worry about as a deputy corporal, but I don’t get paid to man handle these people anymore. Would I possibly shoot an attacker rather than be ganged up on or be exposed to a deadly disease? Damn skippy, or would you rather I stabbed him? I’m open to suggestions and don’t really care either way…
+1 Cujo. Thing about it all and looking to folks is great but when it comes down to it ‘a stick’ was once considered a weapon. Cavemen knew it. Romans knew it. We know it. People are not predictable and no matter how much of a keyboard hero we may convince others we are, when one more guy or a knife comes into play we become keyboard victims.
I don’t care how tough you think you are, Magoo. Add another person and you are f*cked, let me tell you. I did self defense for eight years and I am an in shape dude and I would run from two attackers if the situation present itself. I would run from one if it presented itself. It is just good math.
Your thoughts that you will Van Damme two guys and end the fight when you feel is just silly thinking. If there were bystanders and you were getting the best of these guys maybe they start thinking your the bad guy. Everyone loves an underdog and lets not forget racial camaraderie.
Buuurr, every word I said went completely over your head.
“Magoo says:
June 25, 2011 at 8:02 PM
I don’t need a gun to protect myself against a skinny crackhead. A gun is a hindrance. I can pop you three times in the nose before you can draw a handgun. While you have one or both hands down reaching for your weapon, I’m pounding on your face. This is not a special skill. Any healthy man can learn it.
So don’t be confused here, Todd. I’m not a pansy. With all due respect, maybe you are. You seem to think you need a gun just to go put gas in your car. ”
Sorry, my mistake. Or was it? In one paragraph you are saying avoid, avoid, avoid. In the other from the same thread you are saying you are a tough guy and can take ’em de-own.’ And don’t seem to want to avoid conflict at all? Which is it, Magoo?
Methinks nothing went over my head, Magoo. Methinks you don’t know what you would do.
Yep, still going straight over your head.
Buuurr,
A mega big +1 on that. I said the same to Magoo’s original post as well.
While I was in the army, my unit was used as “auxiliary reinforcements and support” for career LE. We usually patrol streets and “maintain order by mere presence within 3 meter radius from us”. Anyway, that helped to reduce crime, so it’s Ok by me.
One night, after our shift was over, we gathered near our staging area, say goodnight to LEs we supporting and were waiting rest of our platoon, to return to base. There were 12 of us, all in distinctive uniform, plus 4 dogs, German shepherds. Our dogs’ behavior warns us about movement in nearby bushes – strange looking guy emerged from them and rushed to us. He ignored command to stop, and made an attempt to attack any of us with his bare hands. He constantly ignored all commands, so we sprayed him by tear gas. Remind you – military/LE grade, more powerful than civilian one. He, however, wasn’t effected (we tested that gas on ourselves and it… worked well). So we let our dogs on him. Even our trained dogs, about 60-80 kg each, had problems to knock down and neutralize him (though he looked like ~70 kg guy). We had a boxer (local champ with 78 kg weight), even his punches couldn’t knock that guy out.
Nobody knows that guy; he wasn’t registered in local psychiatric hospital, neither as drug addict and had no crime record.
Can normal person attack 12 uniformed military personnel (and 4 dogs) ignore their commands and gas effects? And what those normal people should do, should he or she be confronted with such “assailant”?
I’m not talking about how ordinary man instantly loosens some nuts, or drink, inject, inhale, rub or whatever consumes something and turns “berserk”. I’m talking about what normal person will do with such assailant.
P.S. This post is not opposing CUJO THE DOG OF WAR point of view, I’m actually trying to support him. Though he doesn’t need my support. 🙂
It’s all good, brother! I love discussion, and yes, one of those Michael Myers types is spooky. I think they should be treated as zombies-head shot or head chop.
Thanks. 🙂 After years without constant practice, spe… ahem, “typing” on different language is sort of… problematic.
Although I have no idea who is Michael Myers is (well, until I read wikipedia link on that one :)), I suppose you won’t object that ffolk who either “under influence”, or instantly lost some nuts can be easily “negotiated” to calm down. Even “casual drinkers” can cause problems.
“Magoo says:
June 27, 2011 at 6:48 AM
Yep, still going straight over your head.”
Going over all our heads, Magoo. Or maybe you can not convey your message. There are a lot of folks here disagreeing with you… I could be wrong but I doubt it. Keep tripping yourself up in your tough guy facade and your advice to run if you can. Good luck, Rambo. Methinks you have no retort worth hearing.
I’m with Ralph and Cujo on this, and as I always tell my niece who’s a sunday school teacher “DO IT TO OTHERS BEFORE THEY DO IT TO YOU”. She has tried to explain that this isn’t how the golden rule works, but it works for me which is what really counts.
It amazes me how often I see people cross the street without looking or continuing to monitor their exposure. Blind faith seems cultivated to an extreme in our society. Still the immediate, personal variety of threat is far more obvious than that posed by the successful lunatics and predators that thrive in business and politics. Our big society offers many benefits but also many places for psychopaths to hide in plane sight. I’m more concerned about not recognizing and best as possible, avoiding them.
I say Magoo is right, up to a point. Your best weapon is your brain, please engage it. It will get you out of far more situations than any inanimate object ever could.
That doesn’t preclude having a backup option, just that the backup option shouldn’t be the first or only option.
Of course. Tell us something the moderator and most everyone here doesn’t already know and practice. This is basic, common sense living. I can’t remember the last time I opened my eyes and was suddenly in the hood without my brain screaming danger for minutes before. Maybe if I was blackout drunk… haven’t been in 15 years.
MAGOO wrote this? Wow. Sounds borderline reasonable. And for the record, I (along with, I suspect 99.999% of the TTAG Armed Intelligentsia) believe that a gun is very last resort in any kind of confrontational situation.
Years ago, I was in San Francisco, working a trade show for my company. I went down to Fisherman’s Warf for some dinner. (Mmmmm….Sourdough bread and fresh fish…) As I took an after-dinner stroll in the area, I came upon some street musicians doing their thing, a variety of vendors, and then…
…As I passed a small group of tourists, some guy jumped out from behind a bush, got in my face, yelling and waiving his arms. This is the sort of thing one kid does to another, to scare the snot out of them. Given that I had my situational awareness cranked up a notch higher than usual, I did what I think anybody would do when faced with what appears to be an attacker. I grabbed him somewhere above the shoulders and below the jawline and shoved him up against a nearby brick wall. Then two things happened. The crowd started laughing, and the guy started looking scared, saying “Man, I was just funnin’ ya…is jus’ a joke…I did’n’ mean nuthin’…”
Apparently, this clown would hide behind the bushes, jump out and scare people, then expect to get pocket change for services rendered. The idiots standing around were laughing (a bit uncomfortably now), because they thought startling someone was great sport.
Would I have capped the guy, had I been armed? Unlikely. Would I have had my gun out and pointed at the guy? I have to admit, I’m on the bubble on that one. Don’t know how I might have reacted. But given my perceived threat level, I think I would have been within my rights, as well as within the bounds of acceptable, measured responses to at least show some kind of weapon (kubaton, knife, etc.).
At any rate, nobody got hurt. The crowd dispersed. The guy decided he’d had enough fun for one night, and I walked on my way, Spidey-senses tingling.
I would add never never ” Help”. people in od locations. I volunteer at soup kitchens and give $ to viable small charities . I have flatly refused to give people car jumps in the dark area of a parking lot . etc. If you are walking do not stop to give directions .
KEEP WALKING! Just say “I don’t know” or I’m in a hurry” and keep walking . and always have your CCW up to date a your gun with you.
If you looked up “internet muscles” at urbandictionary.com, you would find a picture of Magoo.
It’s ironic that Magoo would say something like this after he and MikeB have repeatedly accused the rest of the TTAG community of being triggerhappy loons itching for a confrontation.
Magoo, you sound like Travis Bickle talking to his mirror. Shush, kid.
I am just going to repost my post to the event below. You will notice Magoo had nothing to say about that one. Could it be because it shows the lie to his world view?
http://thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/06/robert-farago/self-defense-tip-shoot-the-bastard/
To all that say there is no need for CCW or open carry I think this quote from Suffolk County Police Commissioner Richard Dormer say’s it all.
“You have four innocent people, two workers on a Sunday morning in a nice, quiet neighborhood and died viciously and violently. Two customers walk into the store, they’re not thinking it’s their last day on earth and they’re killed. This is very unusual.”
While would beg to differ on the unusual statement. Every state and major city has a story of workers working and then being shot by criminal predators whether they where resisting or not. To stick your head in the sand like Magoo and others saying it will never happen is irresponsible to yourself, your family and society. It is a fact that it may not have happen to you but when it does it the possibility goes from 0% to a 100% in a heartbeat.
What I am telling you is you grandly overestimate the usefulness of a firearm in protecting yourself. First, examine the odds of being a victim of violent crime. Second, honestly examine the possibility of the firearm doing you any good if it ever happens.
If you guys are honestly concerned about being the victim of violent crime, then do something effective about it. How come the vast majority of guys at the range practicing handgun self-defense are clinically obese?
I’ll agree wholeheartedly with, at least, the second paragraph, and a fair bit of the first. I’m not convinced many of us overestimate the probability of being involved in armed conflict too grossly, but I definitely agree that 1) if it does happen, there won’t always be a clear You-Need-To-Draw-Your-Weapon-Now moment that you’ll be able to perceive at the time, and 2) being in excellent physical shape will probably do more to prolong your life than carrying a weapon ever will.
We have agreed on the relative importance of a heathy lifestyle before. In fact, I brought it up. But this more pressing and self-inflicted danger does not obviate the obvious, entirely rational desire to carry a firearm. People of all sizes and shapes and health levels want to have the means to defend their life. Period.
The statistical likelihood of needing a defensive gun is, in many important ways, entirely besides the point. Regardless of the odds of it occurring, either a CCW (concealed carry weapon) permit holder will need to draw their weapon to defend their life or they won’t. Either they will be successful in its use or they won’t. Either they will survive or they won’t.
The main point: CCW permit holders don’t want to have the need for a self-defense firearm without the means to answer it. Their fear is large enough to make them carry an object they may never need because the consequences of failing to be adequately prepared for an imminent threat to their life or the life of their loved ones are enormous.
I’m not the first to say it: a CCW is a form of insurance. Yes, a gun can create problems rather than solve them. But I side with those who say that in the main, it does not. The streets are not running red with the blood of people killed by CCW permit holders, or CCW permit holders killed by attackers. Statistically speaking, considering the low and falling rates of violent crime in the U.S., it’s all working out rather well, I’d say.
Besides, who cares? It’s my choice to carry a firearm in a country where my right to keep and bear arms is guaranteed by law. If you deem that right to be dangerous, point taken. Feel free to create a Constitutional amendment to limit or remove it.
What’s the goal? To be safe, or to carry a gun?
Yes.
“
Magoo says:
June 26, 2011 at 4:24 PM
What I am telling you is you grandly overestimate the usefulness of a firearm in protecting yourself. First, examine the odds of being a victim of violent crime. Second, honestly examine the possibility of the firearm doing you any good if it ever happens.
If you guys are honestly concerned about being the victim of violent crime, then do something effective about it. How come the vast majority of guys at the range practicing handgun self-defense are clinically obese?”
Bullshit. You don’t know anyone here beyond what they convey themselves as ( the majority are people I would have no issues having a beer with). But I won’t be so pompous as to tell everyone here what they feel and how they over/under estimate the usefulness of a firearm. I will leave that to you.
I have posted many times the likelihood of any kind of attack within a half mile radius of my family. You never respond. You run on that everyone overreacts.
And here we come to ‘the vast majority of guys that are clinically obese’ again. Numbers? Figures? Studies to help you out? Unfounded opinion, Magoo.
I am moving to Southern Oregon in a few weeks. I will be into a dojo not long after that. I challenge you to come in (with us obese gun loving folk) and try your hand at getting away from any of the folks there. I won’t be involved (though if you take me up on it I will be laughing for sure). They won’t even hit you or harm you. They will just restrain you. We will pick the skinniest guys there for you. The ones who look like crack heads even. Come on for fun. See what you can do. Make some stats where you currently have none, zero, naddah!
First off son, just wait till you’re over 50 before making statements like “clinically obese”. It’s not so easy to work, raise a family, pay the bills and stay in shape when you’re on the downslope of life. And if you are over 50 and in good shape then bully for you, you’ve got good genes. The rest of us sweat it out as best we can, especially those of us with disabilities.
Secondly, I’m not sure what range you’re visiting but down here in Texas most folks visiting the range are young, healthy and vibrant. I see more families with teenage children at the range than I do old farts like me. I also see lots of young women that have decided to learn self defense rather than become a victim. I see folks from all walks of life from LEOs & military to college students and the local clergy at the range. All with the same simple goal; to train themselves to defend their lives and the lives of those they love.
No one knows when or where evil will strike, but we do know that evil will strike when we least expect it. In Romans 12:21 Paul writes “do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good”. There is no greater gift you can give than to protect the innocent from evil. Sound advice two thousand years ago and sound advice today.
Oh, Magoo. First you talk how you can out shoot everyone, and then you talk, albeit borderline, like you can out fight everyone and then you try and insult everyone. I’m not going to go play the insult game. I’ll tell you about me. I’m the guy you would see at the range often. I’m 45, 6 foot, 280 and have a 52” chest. I’m about 25 lbs heavier than my norm because of steroids for my injury. I still wouldn’t say I’m obese, I’ve always been built like a line backer. I’ve fought all my life, done 3 branches of the military, 3 law enforcement agencies and fought in 2 prisons and 2 jails. I can handle myself. I also practice my shooting, my kicks, my knives, my punches. I still will not try and play street ninja if I can avoid it. My girl calls me her big dangerous teddy bear. I don’t push people around and I don’t pray that I can shoot somebody in the street. I also don’t give half ass advice on anything-if I say it I mean it and it’s the same thing I would do. When I give a serious statement it is from experience. I wouldn’t wish some of my experiences on others. If you feel the need to kick someone around, get a dog-or rather yet, a cat, I love dogs. As well, I love shooting and discussing firearms. I’ll joke around with anyone, but throwing out little insults and the like is pointless and certainly won’t get whatever point you have across.
Sure, you can talk your way out of most situations, but even that often requires
that you show a willingness to be agressive.
In many situations dealing with the mentally unstable, homeless, or criminal element,
they are looking for weakness. If you show them weakness, they will attack.
They are predators, that’s what they do.
Some are going to attack no matter what, as they feel that if they do not attack,
they are showing weakness themselves.
This type of predator cannot be talked down.
It is in these circumstances that a weapon comes in mighty handy.
Some of these people consider pepper gas, tasers, and the like to be
less of a threat. Some will not even back down when threatened with a knife.
They feel, due to drugs or their less than stellar upbringing, that they are
invincible.
They will only back down if threatened with a firearm.
You should have kicked that fool in the balls(some pepper spray would have been funny) Brad, and then his silly friends would really have had a good laugh.
“How come the vast majority of guys at the range practicing handgun self-defense are clinically obese?”
Did you do some kind of scientific survey? Or did you read that on the interwebs? I ask because no one has ever tried to measure my BMI when I have gone shooting. Related question: why do you go to a range to check out guys?
The real question you should be asking is: “How come gun-grabbers are so ignorant and dictatorial?”
‘The real question you should be asking is: “How come gun-grabbers are so ignorant and dictatorial?”
They are so because a lot of them (note I don’t say all or everyone, Magoo) are irrational, emotionally/fear driven people who feel no sense of control and therefore try to control what they can or think they can.
We can’t all be ninjas like you, Magoo. Besides, as a smart man once said, “God created man. Sam Colt made them equal.” That’s the point. With a gun, training and the willingness to practice self-defense, a small woman can defeat, well, you for example. As can an old guy like me.
Hmm. I agree with the words written in the opener. Situational awareness is the first line of defense.
After that, comes (*gasp!*) guns with (*double gasp!*) extended mags. Magoo may not approve.
Be polite, short phrases or yes/no answers. Remain calm, but ready for a physical confrontation to erupt at any moment.
Smile with your mouth, but keep your eyebrows low.
Keep scanning for his/her “friends” and a possible exit strategy.
DO NOT let the person come within handshake distance of your body.
——
Should it seem that violence/robbery is inevitable, look all around you while keeping the subject in your peripheral vision and change your body language to that of a mugger… like HE IS the one about to be mugged/assaulted.
Look back into his/her eyes and smirk. Ask, “Can I help you?” with the devil behind your eyes.
Watch his eyes, shoulders, and hips for any sudden movement.
Be 99% into the fight already mentally and physically at that point. Just waiting on the 1% reason to attack.
If you look and act like prey, you will be eaten. When you act like another predator, the predator hunting you will likely back down and seek out easier prey. Should they be gearing for an attack… if they would attack another predator, they would have attack you if they saw you as prey anyway.
“Sean says:
June 26, 2011 at 8:44 PM
Be polite, short phrases or yes/no answers. Remain calm, but ready for a physical confrontation to erupt at any moment.
Smile with your mouth, but keep your eyebrows low.
Keep scanning for his/her “friends” and a possible exit strategy.
DO NOT let the person come within handshake distance of your body.
——
Should it seem that violence/robbery is inevitable, look all around you while keeping the subject in your peripheral vision and change your body language to that of a mugger… like HE IS the one about to be mugged/assaulted.
Look back into his/her eyes and smirk. Ask, “Can I help you?” with the devil behind your eyes.
Watch his eyes, shoulders, and hips for any sudden movement.
Be 99% into the fight already mentally and physically at that point. Just waiting on the 1% reason to attack.
If you look and act like prey, you will be eaten. When you act like another predator, the predator hunting you will likely back down and seek out easier prey. Should they be gearing for an attack… if they would attack another predator, they would have attack you if they saw you as prey anyway.”
Awesome advice, Sean. Did you read that in a self defense mag (no sarcasm intended)? What you wrote is exactly what my sensai would teach us over and over with exception to the handshake distance. His/our rule was: If you can touch them with an elbow you need to be swinging an elbow.
-Years of martial arts training in multiple styles/MMA/ring sport/scrapping with like minded guys that don’t mind “testing” the almost outer limits of skill, mindset, & technique; studying “body language” and the escalation of force with people as well, most people (trained fighters included) need to “prep” themselves to fight
-Firearms training – (Clint Smith: “If you look like food, you will be eaten” or something to that effect); Farnam is pretty interesting too, disagree with him a lot, but learn a lot too; never trained with him/ OODA cycle/ new book by Paul Howe is pretty good, just started it
-Experience
When I was younger I had too many stupid friends that I allowed to drag me to stupid places at stupid times to do stupid things around stupid people. The only true idiot was me.
I remembered what I saw/did/learned.
Fastest way to make a possible assailant nervous and break off their stalking & attack prep is to:
1. Get off of the line of attack. Don’t be where you were when he chose you as a mark.
2. Be unpredictable, either confront him directly (politely of course), get away (into car/store/busy area), or at least move quickly out of his path of intercept so it’s difficult for him to justify changing vectors to re-engage you. This is your chance to gain position/orient yourself into a better tactical location.
3. Set a trap for him.
Ex. Walk around a large SUV or 2, and watch his path of follow. Duck down quickly, listen for his footsteps to determine his path, then try to end up BEHIND him/following him in his current vector. Should he turn around, say “Hi.”, look straight into his eyes and wait for his reaction.
Every one of my ex’s know the drill. If there is a specific threat, we split up and pinch the threat/threats in the middle. You always want them to have to look/focus in two directions.
One time, there was a guy that had words with my girlfriend in a bar. His 2 buddies immediately moved to “back him up” (against a 120# girl). I quietly slinked away and came up behind them. One of the friends noticed where I was and recognized me as being “with” her. He nudged his buddy, looked at me and said, “Whatever man, let it go”, the guy protested, but he dragged him away.
After we left the bar, they were following us (busy street). We were actively looking out for them, but didn’t see them until they were already behind us about 15 yards back. She walked into the street, stopped the cars, and stared straight at them.
So now they had me in front of them on the sidewalk, her in the street blocking traffic more than 45 degrees away from me, and both of us looking at them with cars honking away.
They turned around and walked back the way they came. We got to our car on a small dark street a few blocks away not seeing them again.
Gee, big surprise that not a single LE unit drove by at that moment in time.
Be happy to answer any further questions. I wish I was a mall ninja/spec ops wannabe/kid walking around in camo.
I know enough to know that people can be extremely dangerous even without weapons or training. They only need the will and some dumb luck.
I will avoid confrontation if possible, but not at the expense of putting myself in a bad tactical position.
How does the saying go? If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck.
I agree.
You don’t need to fight, just be in the best position to fight possible.
Israelies are taught to negotiate from a position of strength. Before starting negotiations, shore up your support/strength the best way you can at that moment in time.
Awesome. Sounds like we think alike. Fight dirty, no one likes a winner 😉
My son is 10 and wants to follow in my footsteps in being a man who actually takes steps up to and including the use of firearms in defense of his family one day.
So I have been helping him learn situational awareness. At 10, sometimes his attention span doesn’t let him go far with it. A few weeks back, we were walking toward a shopping center. I had my head up and noticed a young man that made me uneasy. As I zeroed on him a bit, he was walking erratically, gesturing violently, and sound carried his voice as an angry growling with lots of obscenities.
I told my son to slow down. The man hadn’t seen us and his path and speed would have caused us to intersect where he might have noticed us. The man might not have been a problem, but I wasn’t sure who he was mad at or what his mental state was. I told my son that while I am able and willing to use lethal defense in certain situations, the best option was avoidance. I told my son that this man was obviously having a bad day and having a bad day was not a good enough reason to shoot or get shot.
I think there’s some wisdom in having a variety of tactics and options. We must have situational awareness. But I am tired of anti-gunners assuming I am an idiot or I need a firearm to make me feel manly. Doing right by my wife and my kids is what makes me feel like a man. Part of that job is being willing and able to protect and defend them.
If you don’t want to defend your family or yourself with a firearm – fine. But stop acting like a whining 13 year old when I decide to act like a man and takes steps that I feel are rational and necessary.
+ 1
Ha. Just last week RF was arguing with all his heart that gun loons would never confuse their firearms with their manhood. Now look at what you wrote.
I think he was referring to his decision to defend his family…not the tools he chooses to do the job
Looks like that one went over Magoo’s head…
I think your response says far more about you and your manhood than it does mine Magoo. If you aren’t willing to be a man and defend your family with every option – be whatever that makes you. Just don’t visit it on those who actually take the role of husband and father as seriously as we do.
Has anyone seen Brad? He should see how “reasonable” Magoo is being.