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“We believe possession laws should mirror laws for purchase 18 for long guns, 21 for hand guns. The idea of putting a gun into a child’s hand should be viewed as a crime.” – Josh Sugarmann in Youth Gun Marketing Debate Ignited by Latest Child Death [via]

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  1. Hmm. It should be a crime for a parent or otherwise responsible adult to introduce a child properly, responsibly, and safely into any of the shooting sports? To teach them about gun safety and responsible gun handling?

    Who once said something on the order of ” show me a man and I’ll show you a criminal”?

    • It’s the ignorance of the populace rooted in parents who didn’t properly train their kids that has lead to the irrational fear of the gun that drives the anti-gunners. One of the best things my dad did was take me to the shooting range throughout my childhood and teach me gun safety. And, because he did that, he also gave me the ability to see through the irrationality of these fear-mongers.

      • Yes, and that’s the real point here. They want more people to grow up ignorant and afraid. They’ve been at it for a while now

        and they won’t let up. If so many Americans grew up like we traditionally did, passing down proper firearm handling father to son, grandfather to granddaughter, etc., then the citizen disarmorment crowd wouldn’t have gained the traction they have.

        The most effective thing we can do is continue to teach our kids. And police ourselves so things like 5 year olds shooting 2 year olds happen even less frequently than they do now (though you can never entirely eliminate stupid mistakes).

  2. It turns out there’s a whole industry that makes lockable boxes to put firearms in, so that a typical 5 year old doesn’t pick one up and pretend to shoot the baby, not stopping to check – because no typical 5 year old would – whether it’s actually loaded.

    But by all means, let’s make it another occasion to go on about the sad prevalance of guns in the country.

    • Even without a lock or safe, there are still plenty of ways to ensure that an unsupervised 5-year old doesn’t get his hands on a gun. This was truly stupid.

  3. Any way to post the video without it auto-playing? (ABC videos are notorious for this.) I refresh TTAG page frequently, and it’s a hassle having to find the video that’s playing to shut it off .

    Definitely not a big deal, but it would make keeping up with TTAG at work much easier! 😉

  4. If we hide from the problem, maybe it’ll go away. Signed, ignorant liberals. (yes yes, there are some good eggs in that group, but not as a whole)

  5. So they want to make it illegal for a 12 yr old to go rabbit hunting with his shotgun? My dad bought me my fist shotgun when I was in 4th grade, do they eant to make that illegal now?

    • “Do they want to make that illegal now?”

      Of course they do. The civilian disarmament weenies are doing everything possible to criminalize and demonize civilian ownership of firearms. The only thing standing in the way of complete civilian disarmament is our pervasive “gun culture”. This sort of law would definitely weaken our “gun culture”.

    • Explicitly, yes they do. It criminalizes responsible instruction of children. That will increase the number of incidents of adults and young adults having negligent discharges and make carrying a firearm seem more risky by the statistics. Then they smear themselves with the blood of the dead and hold another pass-it-before-reading dance.

  6. My 7yo daughter has a Crickett, a 10/22, and a Rossi combo .22/.410 in her room. She knows and follows the 4 rules. She knows that the rifles are not toys. I trust her with them because I know my daughter. I spend time with her every day. I keep the ammo in my gun room. The rifles are hers, so they stay in their cases in her room.

    • You, sir, are a good father. This is exactly what I intend to do with my daughter. She’s currently 18 months, so I have a while to wait, but I appreciate your example.

  7. Personally, I think there should be a law that provides criminal penalties for any politician that authors, co-authors, supports, or votes for a bill that, post-enactment into law, is deemed unconstitutional in part or in whole, or is otherwise struck down by the Supreme Court.

    The potential danger to the lives and liberties of this country’s children must outweigh a politician’s sense of privilege. Those who would take our freedoms from us, should, at the very least, risk losing their own freedoms in order to do so.

    It’s only fair after all, and it’s for the children. I’d even go so far as to say it’s plain old common sense.

    • I think there should be a law that holds any politician criminal who authors a law that exempts them from an existing law that the rest of us must adhere to. Example: Obamacare

  8. As a professional educator, wow…
    I have spent my career attempting to employ best practice. Watching pundits and our fearless, intrepid leaders address issues of gun crime and negligence I’m speechless. They are made of FAIL.

  9. Wait…. are the proposing to make the *purchase* of a gun by a minor illegal?

    Or the *possession* of a gun by a minor illegal?

    Minors not purchasing firearms is not a big deal as along as we follow the usual Adult at 18 methodology.

    Minors not possessing firearms is gonna be a whole big bucket of fight from a whole lot of people. And that doesn’t even include the tangential fights that will arise from the nanny-state trying to control what you do in your own home with your own kids.

  10. According to the Childrens Defense Fund (and anti-gun rights orginization) in 2008 162 children (90,000 per year.

    The point being, there are many dangerous things children do and can get into. Put a fence around your pool, wear a seat belt, store chemicals in a locked cabinet, and put your guns is a safe.

    It’s clear, looking at the stats, that using accidental rates of death as a reason to push gun restrictions is not an issue of child safety, but and attempt to keep parents from passing the joy of shooting on to the next generation.

  11. rtempleton,

    Here you go. I replied to your post on a previous topic and stated there is a concerted effort to eliminate civilian ownership of firearms.

    Since the gun grabbers know they cannot eliminate everything in one action, they are doing it one tiny slice at a time. This latest effort aims to keep people away from guns as long as possible. The fact that children the age of 10 can legally hunt with a firearm in many states (as long as they are with their parent/guardian) doesn’t matter.

    “We the People” cannot oppose efforts to disarm us if we don’t know about them.

    • And this is why they will eventually win..

      I need to buy about 20K acres in the mountains, put up a 10ft high wall, and let the rest of the world go to pot. It’s like trying to build a sandcastle on the beach with high tide coming in. You can do what you want to try to save your castle (rights), but eventually the ocean (anti’s) will wear it down to nothingness.

      Well no thank you…. I’ll just check out of their country, and live life my own way.

      • It would be easier if we didn’t have to work for a living.
        If there was only a way we could support our political ambitions and our family…

    • That’s why we use classic Pro-Westling strategies. We “tag-team” their lousy butts. When you get tired, someone else steps up to the challenge. For whatever reason, it seems more people are getting the logic we’re preaching. Now we just need to get more of them to not fear the object. A day at the range works pretty well.

      • That’s the problem I have locally – no one, not even my family, cares to write/call/email. The assume that my constant barrage since January should be enough.


  12. “The gun industry and gun ownership is declining, it has been for decades…”

    That should tell you all you need to know about Josh Sugarmann.

    “We believe possession laws should mirror laws for purchase 18 for long guns, 21 for hand guns.”

    There’s a difference between carrying a gun, and your parents letting you shoot one at the range or letting you keep your single shot .22 lr in your closet. Sugarmann apparenlty doesn’t believe so.

  13. there is a law, about handguns, yet somehow thousands of kids in chicago, baltimore, philly, detroit, etc get there hands on them. hmm.

    There is also an NRA challenge to this ban that might make it to SCOTUS.

  14. “I don’t have the energy to argue with these clowns anymore.”

    Get your second wind, this is a marathon not a sprint, keep up the fight!

  15. This makes perfect sense from the grabbers POV. My parents (Mom esp) do not like guns. To this day, guns aren’t allowed. I don’t say they HATE them, because we did Cub and Boy Scouts growing up, and they never had a problem with me doing the shotgun/rifle shooting activities at various camps.
    The result? An adult who likes, respects, and owns guns! If Jeffe Sugarmann has his way with this proposal, it will help gut a good portion of the next generation of gun owners.

  16. I don’t think Mr. Sugarman understands the actual definition of “crime.”

    Without a victim, there is none.

  17. My 5 year old daughter has a crickett. Just as I taught my older boys to handle firearms safely I have and will do the same with her. If they never shoot again on their adult life that is fine. However, I as a parent will have done my due diligence to try and protect them from “accidents”. If they happen to come across a pistol or rifle in any setting they know how to clear and handle both.

  18. “We believe possession laws should mirror laws for purchase 18 for long guns, 21 for hand guns. The idea of putting a gun into a child’s hand should be viewed as a crime.”

    In the immortal words of Tanto: “What’s this ‘we’ s#!t, white man?”

  19. The problem here is that the parents were negligent and irresponsible when it came to guns. How can such irresponsible parents be expected to instill responsibility in their children?

    • If this were sex, birth control, or abortions, the left would approach it by taking it out of the parent’s hands and teaching it in school. So, perhaps bring back firearms training in public schools? [crickets from the left side of the hall]

  20. The VPC would string the dead 2 year old’s corpse like a marionette and make it dance to anti-gun jingles on the evening news if someone would let them.

  21. That is a strategy they are using, keeping kids from guns until they are 18-21 means that they may not be interested in guns by that age. I doubt that I would be so passionate, my father was an avid collector and hunter and got me interested at an early age, but passed away when I was 14. By that time he had instilled the proper handling, safety and most of all the enjoyment that fine firearms bring.

    Without his guidance early on I don’t know that this would have happened, most of my relatives were not gunnies.

  22. Possession? Seriously? That’s not even illegal in Canada. (Ignoring the whole licensing aspect of it for a moment.) The crap that comes out of politicians’ mouths these days…

  23. What about Katie Francis? She’s the 13 year-old (14 now?) shooting 3-gun and giving the pros a run for their money. What about the Boy Scouts? What about the entirety of youth shooting sports? That’s the real purpose behind it, disconnect kids from responsible use of firearms so they see them as “dangerous murder tools only for adults to kill each other with”, instead of forming a positive connection and maybe even having fun. Another weak attempt to kill off the next generation of gun-literate individuals that understand an inanimate object is not evil and are willing to take responsibility for themselves as law-abiding Americans. What’s scary here is “educated” adults are more fearful of inanimate objects than children and they want to push their own fear. It’s really difficult to see people arguing for ignorance.

    • Edit: Sorry – intended for another discussion. Still, he was intimately familiar with that firearm, and had been since he was a “tween.”

      You cannot fix stupid, and many grabbers are. You can fix ignorant, and we must needs do so.

  24. I had an ak-47 on layaway when my wife told me she was pregnant. As soon as we found out we were having a girl, I went to the gun shop, traded the money I had down on the AK and bought my daughter a pink cricket. I look forward to the day I can teach her about gun safety and take her to the range with me and I’ll be dammed if the antis take that away from her and I.

  25. It should be a Federal crime for a parent to tell their child to ignore any provision of the Constitution. The bill would also have to provide for the expansion of Gitmo to accommodate the guilty.

    • Easy there. There have been some similar comments scattered around. I understand the anger, but remember: Fascism is for Progressives, not Americans.

  26. My son has been accompanying me to my range (outdoor service type range) since he was about 3-and-a-half. He is now nearly 5 and looks forward to the trip. To him it is a day out with dad and doing “big-boy” stuff (his own words). He is very well behaved and there is no shortage of volunteers to mind him while I compete. He usually sits with the scorers and chats with other people I know. Afterwards he helps in the clubhouse with serving people in the bar, taking money and giving change. He is learning about money, counting, and the items people want to buy. And he does this because he wants to. And he wants to help me clean the rifle afterwards. From this, he has my trust and earned responsibility. And to him these are big things to earn.

    Why does he behave himself? He knows what may happen if he doesn’t do exactly what he is told. At the least, he won’t be coming with me to the range. And in his own words “If I don’t do what I’m told, I could be shot and killed”. He knows what guns can do, thanks to several months of watching Mythbusters together. When it comes to firearms, I think legislators should watch more Mythbusters and less Hollywood!

    He has known about my rifles since the age of 2, and I would still like to know how he knew what they were. I was installing my safe and the rifles were lined up against my workbench. My son says “Daddy, look, boom!” Instead of making them forbidden fruit, I let him hold one under my supervision.

    He is looking forward to when he can start to shoot, which is not until the age of 12 when he can get a junior’s permit. However, he cannot actually own a rifle until the age of 18. I think I am giving him the best balance between instruction and safety within what the law will allow. He is the future of the sport, and I’m looking forward to teaching him when he can start. If he ends up beating me, I’ll think about how good his skills are, and how good an instructor I am.


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