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“In one thing I agree with the gun-rights folks. It’s the violence of the people that’s the real problem. When walking down the street in the US towards a group of young men, the potential for violence is there. This has nothing to do with guns. But, to use that as an excuse for making guns easily available is insanity. Guns make whatever violence is already there that much worse. What could be more obvious than that.” – MikeB30200

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109 COMMENTS

  2. I like this one: “The dreaded phone call from school that there’s been a shooting is about 100 times more likely in the US than it is in Italy, for example. Easy access to guns makes life there a little bit more risky than it should be. ”

    Total BS. Naples, for one, can be a really awful place if you aren’t on guard.

    • What do you know about it? You’re like the guy who keeps repeating that the UK is suffering terribly because of their lack of guns until you look at the intentional homicide rate. It’s the same with Naples.

      You guys love to repeat things that are false just cause they sound good.

        • Taking nearly everyone’s guns away and then further denying citizens the ability to defend themselves with any object in their own homes legally has only bred braver, more sadistic criminals. Going down the Orwellian utopia path hasn’t prevented anything bad from happening over there unless you live in an ivory tower.

        • I like to stick to intentional homicide. I call it the mother of all violent crimes and the UK has 4 times less of it than the US.

          The problem with the other comparisons is that what they consider a violent crime is not the same as we do.

          In any case, a single murder is worse than any number of the other violent crimes they report, so 4 times difference makes them the winners and us the losers.

        • MikeT (we all know what the T stands for! 😉 ), look at historical data from when both the US and the UK didn’t have any restrictions on the “evil” guns – the US still had a much higher murder rate (usually about 4 times higher) because the US has something the UK hasn’t had until recently – diversity. When you take uneducated people from all races, cultures, and religions and throw them together, it’s just a fact that (due to the lack of education in poor areas) there is going to be violence between groups. Go take a closer look at murders in the US and you’ll see that the overwhelming majority of them are racial gangs in major cities (like Chicago) killing other gang members. Normal people rarely come close to those situations and thus have little to fear on a regular basis.

        • “I like to stick to intentional homicide”
          ——
          Which is really half a sentence. The other half goes like this: “because if we include all violent crime it makes my argument look silly.”

          “In any case, a single murder is worse than any number of the other violent crimes they report…”
          ——
          Tell that to a rape victim. Tell that to a home-invasion victim.

        • Mr. Bonomo does what all anti-gunners do, they assume that everybody is equally likely to be victim of crime, any crime. But of course that isn’t true. Most of our homicides are concentrated in a narrow segment of society. For the White, Asian and even Hispanic population the chances of being murdered aren’t much higher than the UK or in Canada. We have a large population of people living in areas where civil society has broken down. The real crime is that one of our political parties designed its social policies to do exactly this so they could create a dependent class that will continue to vote for them no matter how much they are neglected.

          Mr. Bonomo is on the side of thugs who rape, beat and rob other people. He wants to ban guns in the hands of law abiding citizens to create a safe work environment for criminals

      • “You guys love to repeat things that are false just cause they sound good.”

        That’s really rich coming from Mikeb203000.

      • @Mikeb#’s

        My family is from Italy and I am first generation American so I know a few things.

        Including this:

        Napoli, Italy (listed as the Top 10 violent city in Europe)

        “Regarded as the most crime laden city in Italy, even those born in Napoli regard it as a violent and unpleasant metropolis.

        One blog, written by a proud (or not so proud) Neopolitan says that the city’s inhabitants “are the vilest, lowest dreck on the face of the planet and to call them beasts insults beasts.”

        The city has a strong mafia link. Recently, when Italian soccer star Mario Balotelli visited the city, he was reportedly greeted and given a tour by a prominent mafia boss.

        21 percent of residents say they never feel safe, while over a quarter of the city’s inhabitants should apparently never be trusted.”

        Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/europe-dangerous-cities-2011-9?op=1#ixzz283NGTzb7

        And if its not the mafia, its Gypsies and other groups trying to rob you. Not sure where you live, but my relatives are shocked that I can have the UPS guy leave a package on my door step and not have anyone steal it because it most of Italy, you would never ever do that because it would most likely be stolen.

        In terms of crime Naples, followed by Foggia, Vibo Valentia, Crotone, Latina, Syracuse, Caserta, Padova, Reggio Emilia, Trapani, Taranto and Bologna.

        You are mentally warped if you believe you can escape crime by moving from the USA to Italy. Also, in past posts you said you can talk you way out of anything but are afraid of few kids walking down the block towards you – how does that work.

        One more note, my cousins would do anything to immigrate to the USA – problem is they want to do it legally (unlike all the illegal mexicans) and the law will not allow that.

        • The crime in Naples is what, worse than Detroit or New Orleans? No. I don’t think so. And we have only one Naples. You have about 100 Detroits and New Orlenses

          So, my third reason for not wanting to live in the US is very valid. Only a biased gun rights defender would argue that Italy is as bad as the US with regards gun crime or any crime for that matter.

      • 41 firearm murders in England along with almost 9200 firearm assaults. I would say ‘gun control’ is a failure in England!

      • since I can’t reply below, you cite that UK has an intentional homicide rate 4x lower than the US. Coincidentally, the US’s population is ~5x that of the UK. On a per capita basis, one might conclude that intentional homicide is, in fact, more prevalent in your homeland than mine.

        Perhaps it isn’t all guns, all the time…

  3. “But, to use that as an excuse for making guns easily available is insanity.”

    No, that is NOT an “excuse” for making guns easily available. We need no excuse, as you call it. It’s a natural right, and our constitution protects that inherent right. Honoring obvious rights. That’s part of why the United States is a place people from all over the world want to come to, rather than flee.

      • Actually, it has sweet crap all to do with patriotism. The Constitution is a legal document. It is law for a country of law. The 2nd Amendment is part of that law. Period. Full stop. Shall not.

        It should come of no surprise, however, that the gun-grabbing idiots of the world, here and abroad, are generally ignorant of that simple fact.

        Fortunately for those who enjoy the most freedom of any people in the world, the men who gave it to us were one hell of a lot wiser than you and your ilk.

      • “Jingoistic rah-rah America’s the greatest bullshit. It’s no longer true.”

        When the rafts are heading from Florida TOWARD Cuba, and the Mexican and Canadian governments have to build fences to keep U.S. citizens out, THEN I’ll start believing it’s no longer true.

        Until then, you folks that think this gun-filled nation is such a dangerous place to live are welcome to pack up and move to one of your little gun-control-utopia countries. There must be at least ONE you’d consider, because things are SO bad here, right?

        I’m pretty sure the group here would take up a collection for a one-way ticket anywhere you’d like to go, if you’ll just promise not to come back. I’ll chip-in the first $20…

    • Try being a OFWG in a neigborhood like Englewood in Chicago. When you come back, let me know if it is being paranoid.

  5. Are you a Buddhist whose religious teachings call for you not to harm any living creature regardless of what violence or behavior that creature is doing?

    Are you simply a pacifist who would choose to be murdered or let other innocent people be murdered rather than kill in self-defense? You can replace the previously used word murdered with beaten-up, raped, disabled, etc.

    “Guns make whatever violence is already there that much worse”

    So what mikeb? What is wrong with using violence to stop violence? If I come across some meth-head threatening to cut-up a pregnant woman and her children with an 8″ long knife what do you suggest:
    1) call 911 and hope the popo arrives in time?
    2) call out to the druggie-thug to be a nice guy?
    3) ask the threat if he wouldn’t rather grab lunch first before he cuts up the woman?
    4) offer to be a sacrificial lamb if he agrees to let the woman and kids go?

    I think some types of violence in response to a given criminal situation are ethical and the morally responsible thing to do.

    • Nothing’s wrong with using violence to stop violence. But it’s not what we read about in the news every day. You so-called lawful gun owners are continually fucking up in various ways. These are not anomalies or rarities. It’s a significant percentage of you guys that is unfit to own guns in the first place. It’s not just the criminals and the nuts we have to worry about.

      • You are poorly informed. Gun crime in the US is driven by people who are illegally in possession of the weapon. That might not be what you see in the newspapers, but it is what the research says.

      • “Nothing’s wrong with using violence to stop violence”
        — I have no intent of throwing myself unarmed against a crazed meth-head armed with a knife to possibly save someone I don’t know. A gun allows a rescuer to engage a criminal reasonably safely from a distance.

        “it’s not what we read about in the news every day”
        — Then you are selectively focusing on reading the news from organizations (the mass medias and smaller liberal medias) that usually do not report how guns save lives on a daily basis. Keep in mind that 94% of so-called journalists or reporters identify as Democrats and liberals. From the Bill Clinton White House sponsored study led by a University of Chicago Statistician (who was originally anti-gun before the study) focusing on America to the more recent study by Harvard comparing nations the results are that guns owned by the civilian population saves lives and reduce crime. The mere presence of a gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen stops crimes from starting or continuing in an estimated 92% of the cases. Less than 1% of us “lawful gun owners” will ever need to and do fire a gun in self-defense. Still, it was estimated by the Clinton Study that on a yearly basis there are about 1.5+ million times that a gun is used as a deterrent (not necessarily fired) to end a criminal act.

  7. School shootings are the “excuse” used by tyrants and control freaks to steal other peoples’ rights. Gun owners don’t need excuses, we have the Constitution.

  8. There’s a POTENTIAL for drowning in your bathtub, too. This doesn’t mean that you should never take a bath, though. There’s a POTENTIAL to have an accident while driving your car. This doesn’t mean that you should only ride a bicycle. There’s a POTENTIAL to get an electric shock every time you touch a light switch. What do you suggest? That we, all, live in the dark!

    Your logic is sophistic. 😉

  9. So, if violence is there already, I guess he proposes that only strong young men be able to defend themselves, and only if they stay in packs?

  10. Gun availability is one of the reasons that I’m glad to be an American–one of the many. What I don’t understand is why someone who has chosen to leave that country and live elsewhere cares. Oh, actually, I do get it. America’s continued existence as a nation that values the rights of citizens shows up the lie that is any form of society that does not share that value.

  11. “When walking down the street in the US towards a group of young men, the potential for violence is there.” – MikeB302000

    “Most gun owners are driven by irrational fear and insecurity.” – MikeB302000

    Projection.

    Fish. Barrel. Gun.

    • I suppose walking towards a gang of football hooligans anywhere in Europe is much safer? Gee I’d rather be stomped to death than shot, hoooraaah I feel so much safer now…

      • Now that’s the exception that proves the rule. The rule is, at least here in Italy, physical violence among young men is rare. You can feel the difference in the air when you go out on a Friday or Saturday night. That’s no shit.

  12. What’s more obvious than that? Good question. It’s obvious that if I am approaching a group of young men that intend to do me (and mine) harm, and I am armed (assuming the day of the week ends with a y, this is the case) I am going to be have much better odds of o’laying their violence and neutralizing the threat. Since I’m going to be on the right side of morality and the law, that’s a win for not only myself and my family, but for society as a whole.

    I’ve jumped ahead of myself though. Let me back up. Knowing this, and being confident in my ability to tip the scales in my favor, my appearance is going to be different than that of a scared sheep. I’m going to walk tall in the direction I am headed, making eye contact and keeping track of every movement the group makes. This is going to scare these young men shitless, and they are going to decide to be polite and say “hello” instead of making a threatening advance.

  13. Maybe in the next TTAG reader survey you could find out how many suffer from two and how many suffer from all three of my reasons. In my opinion either one of the first two points should be a disqualifier for the third.

    If you’re obese you can’t physically move in ways that make gun management safe. If you take those heavy pain killers, even according to doctor’s orders, you are unfit.

    • Quick survey.

      Show of hands. How many of you are suffering from MikebNumbers himself? We’ll poll the sufferers from his reasons at a later date.

    • Mikeybnumbers, you do realize that by posting here and stirring up the pot you contribute hits to this site that make it the most successful pro gun site going, right? At the same time you’re making RF’s site outstandingly successful your’s aint doing all that well.

      And your posts are so childish and easy to refute that I’m beginning to think you must be pro gun and just doing a bad job of playing devil’s advocate. Just saying.

    • Why do you consistently sound like someone who has never held a gun in his life? We know that’s not true about you. A person’s weight has nothing to do with the ability to manage a firearm safely. Drugs do, but it’s only your bias that lets you think that we’re walking around armed and stoned.

  14. I like to argue gun elimination (let’s not pretend it’s gun control when it’s gun elimination) with people who can argue the anti’s point. This guy is just an idiot not even worth expending any more bandwidth on.

    • I wouldn’t call it “gun elimination” either. That makes it sound like it successfully disarms the criminal element.

  16. Well lets look at where “gun control” worked Germany, Russia, Cambodia and China just to name a few Gun control worked for all these governments leading citizens to death camps, gulags, hangings and gas chambers. Estimated dead 200 million. That’s why we have a 2A birthright to keep all evil in check whether criminals or governments. It’s a right and I really do not give a dam what you or anyone else says against it. Gun control kills the innocent and leaves evil unabated.

    • Do not forget Italy under Mussolini:
      “The measures adopted to restore public order are: First of all, the elimination of the so-called subversive elements. … They were elements of disorder and subversion. On the morrow of each conflict I gave the categorical order to confiscate the largest possible number of weapons of every sort and kind. This confiscation, which continues with the utmost energy, has given satisfactory results.”
      – Benito Mussolini, address to the Italian Senate, 1931

      • Oh, yes. The populace has been “satisfactorily “disarmed and now poses not threat to the government. Maybe Mikey is a fan of Mussolini? Having moved to Italy and all…

  17. You know what I love about this country? Anyone can start a blog and make people spend hours refuting total nonsense.

    By the way, was the name Mikeb301999 already taken?

  18. Slamming America because it has fat people = valid

    Defending America because of the way its laws work = jingoism

    WTF?

  19. Every anti-gun idiot blinded by his irrational paranoia/fear of gun owners should look at these charts:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_gun_ownership
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_rate#By_country
    (Isn’t it funny how countries with low civilian firearms ownership exhibit high levels of intentional homicide irregardless of the restrictive gun laws?)
    Finally, comparing the US states individually:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_rate#United_States

    Conclusion: The availability of gun access for civilians does not affect homicide rates significantly. Societal factors, effectiveness of the government and other non-firearms factors play much larger roles in overall safety.

  20. Mikenumbers, you can’t go into the past and uninvent the gunpowder. We currently are in medias res of history, where criminals have a plethora of guns all around. How do you plan on disarming them all? You can’t? In that case leave the legal guns and the legal gun owners in peace. Why are you so burdening yourself with guns if you hate them? Why do you keep coming back to this web site? Childish and immature you positively are.

    (I hope Mikenumbers is just a fictional character created by someone here, to keep the debate rolling.)

  21. I don’t understand why someone would think the fact that when they walk down the street and see a bunch of young men and get scared, that everyone does…

    Thinking back to the last few times I’ve loitered with other “young men” on/near the street I would assume:
    Waiting for ride.
    Waiting for movie theater to open.
    Waiting for another person to show up.
    Waiting for midnight game release.
    Trying to figure out where to eat.
    Trying to figure out how much we owe the guy who paid for the meal with his debit card.
    Trying to figure out where the hell we are in a strange part of town.

    All of that happened in one night….

    I’m firmly in the “young men” demographic (20 years old) and I believe MikeB’s statement was sexist and ageist. Just because I’m younger then you and have a penis doesn’t mean I’m a bad person. Just means I was born after you and am a male….

    • #1

      MikeB’s statement expressed ignorant misandry ie the hatred of males. He stereotyped and profiled men and especially young men most of whom do not murder, join gangs, rape, and attack innocent people. In London, young women now account for 25%+ of those who commit street assault. David, you might enjoy visiting the Men’s Movement sites called Angry Harry, and ManWomanMyth. Just add the com at the end.

    • I love how the United States is in the unique position of having people who live on other continents feeling our laws do not mesh with their beliefs.

    • Robert:

      Statements have been made about his background. I think you owe us an explanation about his alledged criminal past and why he is Italy. Why don’t you ask him to release his biography? I make reference to his alledged criminal behavior to get under his skin but I really would like to know if it’s true.

        • What’s wild about it? You have admitted to at least one crime and alluded to several others. It doesn’t seem out of line to me to know the criminal history of an author on this site. Especially when this is a blog on gun topics and your crime was gun related. It helps put your opinions in perspective.

      • Well Mikey, you are either a reformed criminal by your own admission or a liar. I think we ought to know which one is true. You either committed crimes or lied about committing crimes. The former actually increases your credibility while the latter requires us to dismiss everything you say.

        • Wait, I wasn’t supposed to be dismissing every thing he said just because most , if not all that he says, is pure BS.

          His insistence on comparing us to other countries that are as different too us as night and day is supposed to somehow prove his arguments. We’renot england or germany or italy and his apples to oranges comparison make no sense at all.

  23. “I like to stick to intentional homicide…”

    Fine, but you can’t make an argument over one particular, and particularly narrow, set of data. That’d be like saying a town’s murder rate went up ten times it’s normal rate one year, because they had a triple homicide while averaging one every three years. It really isn’t even a solid look at whether the town is safe. As for comparing violent crime rates with just one point of data, it seems overly simplistic. However, if you consider that violent crimes, a la rape, armed robbery, home invasion, etc., can tend to lead themselves to homicide, then you could infer two things: 1) while an American is x times less likely to be a victim of violent crime than a normal Brit, they are y times more likely to be killed during the commission of said violent crime or 2) Americans don’t commit nearly as much crime against one another, but they are much more likely to kill each other when they do. Otherwise, IMO, any conclusion drawn between the two is a stretch. Even my own conclusions very well could be.

    Now, just curious, what is your personal experience with American gun laws? Have you ever lived here? If so, when and where? What made you so avidly opposed to our rights?

    • “Now, just curious, what is your personal experience with American gun laws?”

      Now you’re opening up a can of worms that MikeB steadfastly refuses to talk about after making an early admission.

    • Kelly, when talking about the difference between the US and the UK in murder rates, it’s not a case of “Fine, but you can’t make an argument over one particular, and particularly narrow, set of data. ”

      These are two big countries with big populations. One has lots more guns than the other and lots more murders per capita.

      Does England have more purse snatching? I couldn’t care less.

      • “Does England have more purse snatching? I couldn’t care less.”

        What about rape, assault, murder, home invasion, and sexual assault. Are you as indifferent on those forms of violent crime as well? You must be, otherwise you would not make the absurd argument that you did above.

        Also Kelly, did you happen to notice the questions of yours that MikeB failed to address? Hard to take him seriously when he won’t even own up to his own criminal past isn’t it?

  24. Violence is comitted by violent people. Violent people, like suicidal people, will attempt to carry out their violence no matter what method is available to them, as has frequently been shown in Bruce’s articles. If guns are outlawed, violent persons will turn to knives. If knives are outlawed, they will turn to clubs and sharp objects. If those are outlawed, they will turn to their fists and their feets andworkout more at the gym.

  25. “It’s the violence of the people that’s the real problem. When walking down the street in the US towards a group of young men, the potential for violence is there. This has nothing to do with firearms, especially because criminals tend to ignore laws aimed at prohibiting them from obtaining firearms. But, to make potential victims defenseless is insanity. Firearms allow weak, helpless, and/or outnumbered victims to defend themselves. What could be more obvious than that.”

    Fixed.

  26. The intentional homicide rate is most definitely lower in the UK, but it’s (historically) always been that way. As the UK has steadily ratcheted up its firearm laws, so has the intentional homicide rate (as well as a number of other crime rates). After the 97 firearms act (banning private ownership of handguns), there was a sharp increase in intentional homicides…followed by a similar decrease. And where is the rate now? The same as the year the act was passed and higher than in years prior. http://i45.tinypic.com/23ifqmw.jpg It appears the increased legislation has failed to decrease the intentional homocide rate…as well as a number of other crime stats.

    What’s also steadily increased in that same time? Homicides (intentional or not) http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/thereporters/markeaston/2008/12/teen_homicide.html Additionally, England has some of the highest rates of rape, burglaries, and robberies among developed nations….even higher than the US.

    I don’t think England’s stats back up the assertion that more gun control = reduced crime rates.

  27. In England, they instituted Sharia Law, Muslims waving signs about dominating the world, bus, and subway bombings. Europe has bowed to Islam because they are afraid and lack the spine to stand up to it. Italy is another EU country that is a financial mess because of Socialist based policies. While Mikey may rail against the United States, he is actually living in a failing society!

    Mikey totally cracks me up!

  28. You have got to love Mikeb302000. He rarely posts without setting off a firestorm of comments and abuse directed towards him and ridiculing everything he says. Then, he offers rebuttals to a very select few of those civilized flames which amount to name-calling and/or more nonsensical statements.
    It does seem true that he creates more hits, comments, and thereby, success for TTAG by offering low hanging fruit that more people to respond to.
    If he’s serious in what he says, then he has no idea he’s just “shooting himself in the foot” (pun intended).
    I think he just enjoys the abuse and knows full well what he says is ludicrous. He likes setting people off and has no serious agenda except to see how many names he can get called. He’s like a kid poking at a Hornet’s Nest with a stick. For me he “ups” the entertainment value of TTAG by providing comedy-relief from the otherwise seriousness of the Site, it’s posts and comments. Keep up the good work, Mikeb302000!

  29. In a competitive world, you have to appreciate little mikey. Having mikey at the low end of the bell curve makes it easy for guys like us to be at the upper end. Without the mikeys of the world, smart people would be considered average. So keep it up, Signore Stronzo. We need you, man.

  30. +1. Mikey has entertainment value, as a good example of logic-free mind-space.

    “Never try to teach a pig to sing. It’s a waste of time and besides it annoys the pig.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein

  31. “Mike B Doesn’t Live in America”…enough said. Thank Goodness. We have enough of “those types” here already.

    If he did live here, he deserves to live in a choice spot like Oakland, Compton, Chicago, etc…and he’d change his anti-gun tune in a jiffy.

  32. I realize I’m responding to an old post, but I can’t help but notice how nicely this dovetails to my take on the antis. Too cowardly to defend themselves and too little personal accountability to care. . . except that little voice never stops nagging them ‘coward, coward’ and so in their self loathing they learn to hate anyone with the initiative and bravery to provide for their own defense, and by extension the most effective tools for it.

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