“It’s amazing to me that I can walk up to a parent on school property and say, ‘You need to put your cigarette out, you’re not allowed to smoke on school property,’ but I can’t walk up to someone and say, ‘You’re not allowed to have a weapon on school property if you’re open carrying.'” – Michigan School Superintendent Jim Baker, quoted in Huron Valley schools to tackle open carry issue [via freep.com]
Smoking is harmful to those around you even if you have no hostile intent. Carrying a gun openly is not. If this fellow isn’t smart enough to see the difference maybe he should be the janitor and not the administrator.
Yeah if you can’t tell the difference between the two why are you in charge of educating people. SMH
The Superintendent is using False Equivalence.
“False equivalence is a logical fallacy which describes a situation where there is a logical and apparent equivalence, but when in fact there is none. It would be the antonym of the mathematical concept of material equivalence.” From wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_equivalence
And Appeal to emotion.
“The appeal to emotion fallacy uses emotions as the basis of an argument’s position without factual evidence that logically supports the major ideas endorsed by the elicitor of the argument. Also, this kind of thinking may be evident in one who lets emotions and/or other subjective considerations influence one’s reasoning process. This kind of appeal to emotion is a type of red herring and encompasses several logical fallacies, including:
Appeal to consequences
Appeal to fear
Appeal to flattery
Appeal to pity
Appeal to ridicule
Appeal to spite
Wishful thinking”
Also from wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion
What you just said: 1000+
Proper (read: holstered until the need arises) use of firearms doesn’t emit a cloud of carcinogenic smoke, unlike cigarettes.
It’s #FuhDaChillunz, nitwit.
That’s the correct comparison… A parent with a pack of cigarettes in their pocket and a parent with a holstered handgun.
No, you can’t smoke at school. No, you can’t indescriminately fire your weapon at school either.
Some people really do see a holstered or slung weapon and think it’s just going to haul off and start shooting people.
That is still not the correct comparison. He stated the correct one, you are not allowed to smoke on school property, but you ARE allowed to carry, regardless of what he wants to say. If that’s not acceptable, I assume he can find the door.
Are you also amazed you can’t walk up to that same person and tell them to shut up and let you search them for more weapons? Cuz that’s two more bits of The Bill of Rights you can violate while you’re at it. May as well go hard if you’re going to be stupid.
So basically he just wants to get off on telling people what to do, no matter what the reason… Understood.
A fairly typical mindset for bureaucrats.
Yep, just like EVERY school superintendent I ever met. They seem to think that since everyone that works in the school is smart, and they are in charge of all those smart people, they must be super smart and know everything about everything. Amazing how a college education can destroy some minds.
I guess that’s because the right to keep and bear arms is enumerated specifically in the Constitution of the United States of America. If this clown had not been sleeping that day in high school, he might understand that. Smoking is not constitutionally protected.
Yes, it is. “The powers not delegated […] are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” The government has no business regulating every aspect of peoples life. While you can make a case about regulating smoking on public property, restaurants and in general private property should be up to the to the businesses. Because private property right. Forbidding smoking in open air is stupid.
But what can I say? First they came for the smokers … you get the idea.
Seems to me that all the school shooting occur in declared gun free school zones.
The only change should be allowing cch holders to carry concealed rather than requiring they carry open.
Better that the scum bags don’t know who is armed.
Had that theater in CO not banned guns, lives would have been saved as well as a few million dollars in taxpayer money that is spent on a trial and incarceration of the dirtbag.
I dunno if I would say lives WOULD have been saved, perhaps no one would have carried to the movies that night. But they sure COULD have been. Myself, for instance, I carry EVERYWHERE any more, except when I’m in workout togs, then my gun is in the car around 50 feet away. And I’d have engaged the jerk, win or lose. 5.56 to .380, why the hell not?
Given that the theater chosen in Aurora was the only one to ban guns within the vicinity, and that reaching it required passing other theaters, including the largest theater in the state, it is safe to assume that, had that theater not forcibly disarmed its patrons, no theater-goers would have died in a spree shooting that night.
Eliminate “Gun Free Zones” and, while you may create motivation for a different kind of criminal act, you will all but entirely eliminate spree shootings.
I agree that Holmes chose the Cinemark because of the “gun free zone” policy of the management. As you pointed out, In selecting this safer (for the murderer, not the victims) substitute venue for slaughter, Holmes rejected several other more suitable and convenient theaters which were NOT “gun free” for his murderous plans.
But why did he choose any theater at all?
Holmes, in a very telling departure from the norm of student madmen turned mass-murderers, did not kill on his campus. Some 4 months earlier, the Colorado State Supreme Court ruled that the Board of Regents at CUD could not refuse to allow people with a CCW to carry a gun on campus.
Holmes avoided his “armed campus” and substituted a “gun free zone” at a movie theater. This was a radical departure from the norm. In every other case that I have heard of, the psycho kills people at the place he associates with his failure and frustration. The “disgruntled employee” will “go postal” at his workplace.
In the case of an enraged student turned madman and killer, he kills people at the place he associates with the perceived wrongs done to him — his campus, which is almost always a “gun free zone”.
Holmes used his intelligence to avoid having his carefully planned slaughter ended by an armed “victim”. He was not suicidal at all, merely homicidal.
Apples to oranges. You can’t walk up to someone carrying a cigarette that isn’t smoking and tell them to get rid of it. You can tell someone brandishing a weapon to put it away.
Just to make things clear, you need a CPL to carry openly on school grounds in MI. You may not carry concealed unless you are one of the more than equals. Lawful open carry on school grounds tells you ALOT about the person carrying. Just off the top of my head, they are not a felon, are not mentally defective, do not beat their spouse, and also have not committed a whole slew of drug or alcohol offenses in the past 5 years. The lawful carriers are NOT the ones you need to worry about.
Pretty much exactly what I was gonna post. +1
You also cannot walk up to someone with a pack of cigarettes in their pocket and tell them to leave. Get it?
My local school district is a “tobacco free zone.” They say parents and fans can’t even bring the stuff to a football game. I’ve never seen them kick anyone out for it, though.
There’s a bunch of that going on these days. An unenforced law or rule just makes it more difficult to enforce any law or rule. If you’re not going to enforce it, drop it. Enforcing a gun ban means metal detectors, armed guards, and if you carry a gun in there you go to jail, I don’t care what your excuse is. Not gonna happen, most schools would prefer to have higher teacher pay, or even more teachers.
And how, pray-tell, would they enforce such extra-statutory “rules” on adults, on public property?
“While I have no objections to the rights of open carry,….”
Liar! If you had no objection then why are you having an objection? HYPOCRITE! Politician in the making,
Yes!
How much fun it would be for an open carrier to tell this guy, “I support your no-open carry rule BUT I’m not going to give up my means of defending myself and others.”
He sounds just like Shannon Watts & Co when they say, “I support the 2nd Amendment BUT….”
There are limits to human intelligence, but there is no limit to human stupidity. At least once a week, some school administrator proves it.
I would like to know which university awarded him a Masters of Stupidity degree?
One of the worst inadvertent insults I ever got was when someone confused my ME (Master of Engineering) with an ME (Master of Education). Fortunately it was over the phone so they couldn’t see my face during the split second it took me to realize they were coming from ignorance, not malice.
Another prime example why all colleges of education should be bulldozed.
Signed,
A college of “education” escapee
Freedom is a bitch, isn’t it?
Maybe that’s what the school administrators and teachers should have done in Newtown. I’m sure the maniac would have changed his mind and gone home. Where were you with this brilliance Mr Baker when it was truly needed?
He should have to leave the smoker alone. The case against second-hand smoke was and is exceedingly weak, but it fit the desired narrative to not dwell much on that.
Of course he can go up to an open carrier and tell him he can’t have a weapon on school property. Your First Amendment rights include the right to be wrong.
Actually, no, he cant. He would be speaking under the color of authority. His words would imply a command which must be obeyed. He cannot simply make up his own laws and implement them at his whim. His speech as an official is therefore limited. When speaking in a non-official capacity he can say what he wishes (assuming he is also willing to take the consequences of his words).
I’m just envious. We can’t carry on campus, or carry handguns openly any public place in TX. We need to get that changed.
So when a cop takes their kid to school on the way to work and has to go inside, does anyone freak out because they have a gun and lock down the school?
We don’t know the intent or the mental condition of the cop, but since they have a costume it is ok?
“We don’t know the intent or the mental condition of the cop, but since they have a costume it is ok?”
Exactly! Remember the spree killer in Norway who executed 69 people? He was wearing a police
uniformcostume as well.It’s amazing to me that arguments that are this illogical are deemed as “common sense” arguments for gun-control.
“…It’s amazing to me…”
When you start a comment with those particular words what follows had better be very funny. Because if you aren’t trying to point out some absurd bit of something to be humorous then you are just pointing out how petty a tyrant you want to be.
There’s a reason we call it “Urine Valley” and you’re getting a taste of it here.
Is it just me or does it seem like 21st century school administrators are actually trying to condition our kids to acclimate to and ultimately accept fascism.
the liberals in the Michigan Legislature had a chance to change the law on open carry and override the governor’s veto by expanding the locations for lawful CONCEALED carry so that people with CCW’s could carry in schools, and in return, it would have greatly restricted OPEN carry. They didn’t. Suck it.
A news station covered the story and published a post on Facebook as well. If you want to see something amazing — no, make that stunning — read the comments under the post. There are over 1,600 comments and ALL OF THEM (as far as I can tell) SUPPORT THE PARENT WHO CARRIED A HANDGUN OPENLY TO SCHOOL. Did you catch that? Something like 1,600 comments endorsing open carry in a school.
If this doesn’t refute all of the people who condemn open carry, I don’t know what will.
Here is the link:
https://www.facebook.com/Local4/posts/10153502644046002?comment_id=10153502837371002¬if_t=like
By the way I was thrilled to see that many of the people who endorsed open carry in school were women!
Amen.
It was downright heartwarming to see such good sense expressed.
This administrator needs to be fired. First as others have pointed out this is a false equivalence. The proper equivalence would be his ability to tell a parent he cant possess cigarettes while dripping off a kid, not smoking home.
Secondly the administrator either knows the facts and is lying or is ignorant of the reason behind the open carry in schools. In lots of jurisdictions, a person who has a concealed carry permit must change to open carry in certain places. The administrator actually has a problem with a gun control law — advocated by gun control people.
Lastly the people who should be prohibited are not carry permit holders or legal gun owners legally carrying — the persons who are the real threat are person with prior criminal records. Legal owners shooting up a school are profoundly rare. What is common is shootings by prior criminals and gang bangers in and near schools.
How does principle feel about addressing the real threat, and a national policy to ask each parent or sibling for their arrest records and forbidding prior criminals, parents or not, from going within 1,000′ of a school?
A dirty secret of the education biz is that public school administrators are not well trained or well educated. These people have degrees in education, a course of study that is notoriously weak and tends to attract students who are unwilling or unable to find success in mainstream academic disciplines. You won’t find many school administrators with engineering, finance, or management backgrounds but you’ll find plenty with an Ed.D. (“education doctorates” which usually don’t require a dissertation) picked up in a weekend “graduate school” offered by third-tier schools with minimal academic standing. Simply put, guys like this don’t know much. I seriously doubt that this guy would know what a false equivalence.argument is if it bit him in the ass.
I don’t know about other states but here in Az you can’t open carry or CC on school property. If you have a CC permit you can be in your car with a gun but if you get out of the car the gun must be locked up. LOCKED up..not under a seat or anything like that.
That’s why cars are built with locks!
My rights end where yours begin. My having a weapon in no way shape or form infringes on any of your rights, nor your health, until I perform some dastardly deed with it.
I’m glad you are not responsible for my children.
Can you open carry on school grounds in MI?
What about the federal Bush1 era 1,000 ft rule.
Applies to me in WI.
KCK,
If your state of residence has issued you a license to carry a handgun, you are exempt from the federal Bush1 era 1,000 foot rule in your state of residence.
Please note that you may NOT be exempt from the federal 1,000 foot rule if you carry a handgun in a state where you are not a resident.
Whats more regulated in schools? Cigarettes or guns?
Can you carry it legally on your person, in a pocket or holster?
Cigarettes-Yes
Guns-Yes
Can you carry it legally in your hand?
Cigarettes-yes
Guns-no
Can you use the item in school?
Cigarettes(which cause far more deaths than guns)-no
Guns-no
The Progressive (It’s progressive, like a disease) movement spent the last four decades or so entrenching itself deep in the educational institutions of the country. It’ll probably take another four decades or so for the old guard and their influence to die off.
It would be quicker if all teachers were required to have a license and carry. The wildest can quit, most will comply and in doing so discover their attitudes were wrong and they have been lied to. School shootings would be over forever. And those progressives would be better off.
Something I always used to do in school before turning in a paper was to read it aloud. You want to make sure it sounds natural and the ideas are clear, but also just to make sure it makes sense. As you write, not every thought actually makes it to the page, such that what does make it can sometimes be disjointed and unclear. Well.
This school official clearly has not employed a similar approach before speaking to the media. Consider his lockdown policy for open carriers. Of doesn’t know an OCer’s mindset or frame of mind, he said, so he calls the police to come determine it. Why? If his mindset were menacing, you’d be dead before you called the police, and the shooter might be dead before the police arrived. If his minset were not murderous, then you’re hassling him for no reason.
It amazes me as well. You have no right to tell another person what they can and cannot do with their own body, you Nazi. Does anyone vet these bozo’s before they vote them into office?
So says Uncle Fester.
Creepy…
The good educator just doesn’t like the fact he can’t tell you, what to do. He hates the fact, you have a constitutional right, to keep and bear arms. He can’t stand that he can’t really ban the practice. He believes that by posing signs that say “NO GUNS” that his mythical gun free zone will keep people safe. You have nothing to fear form law abiding parents who have CCW permits. You should be encouraging more parents to do the same and show up at all times of the day and at your events. Because I would bet your tax payer funded salary, those kids would be safer with armed parents around, than they are at any other time of the day.
Theere is NO debate. The debate ended Dec 15th 1791 with the ratification of the Bill of Rights.
Let’s see him stop a spree shooter with a pack of cigarettes.