Quote of the Day: By Any Means Necessary Edition


“So much for another hard workweek in the Senate. The one accomplishment was the unintended protection of the E.P.A.’s authority over lead. Now the agency should protect the nation’s wildlife by finally banning lead ammunition and sinkers from the land.” – New York Times editorial, ‘Poison Shot From Guns’ [at nytimes.com]


  1. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

    Gee, I wonder where lead comes from……..

    1. avatar Jack Brown says:


    2. avatar James R says:

      The NRA creates it from the tears of children at their institute for the elimination of all things happy and good.

    3. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

      NRA, duh!

    4. avatar David Molyneux says:

      Alchemists at the NRA take the gold they are paid in by gun manufacturers and turn it into lead, using “black rifle” magic. This, of course, requires the sacrifice of an innocent. The victim is allowed the choice of death by pistol grip, barrel shroud, flash suppressor, muzzle break, or silencer.

      1. avatar Rick says:

        Don’t forget the shoulder thing that goes up, http://youtu.be/WhNkIsP59pM

        1. avatar Doc says:

          OMG that made me lose my shit. o almost forgot about this clip. lol

      2. avatar Will in Oregon says:

        you left off the deadliest feature of all! the bayonet lug!

    5. avatar Joe R says:

      I like to consider my ammo as a safe sequestration of lead from the environment. If anyone wants to poison the environment by taking it away from me, then I may be compelled to help deliver it quick fast and in a hurry.

    6. avatar bontai Joe says:

      Lead is found in 2 ways. First would be the large piles of it found at the base of every rainbow. The second method is that it’s squeezed out of unicorn manure.

  2. avatar usriflecaliber.30m1 says:

    Panic buying spree in 3… 2… 1…

    1. avatar RockOnHellChild says:


      Because the Times said so?

      1. avatar Tex300BLK says:

        Historically it has taken a whole lot less than that… go hang around the ammunition aisle at a Cabelas some weekend to eavesdrop on the various conversations going on there. Good entertainment.

        1. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

          Generally, I avoid gun store banter.

          If I want to hear a bunch of know it all dbags attempt to convince everyone in the room that they know what the hell they’re talking about… I’ll just hang out with my extended family.

        2. avatar Hank says:

          True. I was visiting a big gun store in Weatherford, TX a few weeks ago and a sales person was listening to an elderly woman who was on an ammo hoarding spree cite her reason as being the EPA’s shutting down of all lead-smelting, importing, et al. Not once did he jeopardize the sale by introducing facts & reasoning…

        3. avatar AndrewinDC says:


          We must be related?

        4. avatar The Brotherhood of Steel says:

          This whole EPA lead thing about shutting down smelters and banning lead rounds is nothing but a bunch of horse s**t. Its been going on since last November and its propagated by people who know nothing about economics, factories, production, ammo, or lead. Thank you for your logic in here everyone, Don’t let it get any worse. What started it was the EPA shut down the US’s last lead smelter in November. Everyone freaked the hell out thinking it meant no more lead for ammo. Except that lead smelter never made lead for any of the ammo companies to begin with. Its all imported, along with just about everything else in this country.

  3. avatar Martin says:

    Lets also save the World by banning lead from the NY Times pencils.

    1. avatar Paul G. says:

      Graphite isn’t really lead.

    2. avatar Chip in Florida says:

      No…. ban the ink they print with. It is made from CARBON! That is almost as bad as lead!

      1. avatar SteveInCO says:

        Graphite IS carbon. The molecules are formed from a chickenwire lattice of carbon atoms, stacked in sheets, they slide against each other as it comes off the end of the pencil–and that’s why it makes a good lubricant, too.

        Diamond is also carbon, but the structure is more 3D and beyond my ability to describe without diagrams. And harder than virtually anything else known to man. But they are mined by evil thug dictators.

        So ban ’em all. Pencils, diamonds and ink! Ban everything made out of carbon!!!!

        (“Uh Steve, that includes people.” “Oh. Well, nevermind then.”)

        1. avatar Hank says:

          Careful, the NYTimes may be for that, too.

    3. avatar The2ndisthe1st says:

      I believe any lead in their pencils has left long ago.

    4. avatar Anonymous says:

      NYT pencils contain 2.3 Gores of Carbon! What do we do if it gets in the atmosphere???!

  4. avatar brentondadams says:

    “The gun lobby warns that nontoxic alternatives such as copper and steel bullets and lead-free sinkers are an expensive threat to sportsmen’s rights. (We don’t know the first thing about it but) This is nonsense…”

    1. avatar A samurai says:

      You know what they are right. Lead IS bad for the environment and we should do something about it at all costs… SO! Let’s federally mandate that all bullets be copper jacketed steel! For all firearms! It’s perfect! Those wouldn’t be de-facto armor piercing, nooooooo! (sarcasm)

  5. avatar Cubbie says:

    So “thousands of tons” of lead gets returned from wence it came. Thank you, sportsmen, for your conservation efforts and stewardship.

    Can’t wait to return that copper to Mother Earth, albeit in far less quantity.

  6. avatar Daniel S. says:

    I don’t like using lead. The poisonous effects cause instant cancer and unnecessary suffering.


  7. avatar the ruester says:

    They already accept as a matter of faith that unleaded gasoline lowered the crime rate. They probably blame lead bullets and sinkers for bear and alligator attacks, as well as global warming and rape. It was only a matter of time before we were made to pay for this abuse of Gaia. Ironically, the people pushing this nonsense are soft, yet very dense…

    1. avatar Tom in Oregon says:

      And I’ll wager that Steven Spielberg used lead bullets when he killed that poor endangered triceratops.

    2. avatar David Molyneux says:

      “soft, yet very dense…”

      This made me laugh out loud.

  8. avatar RockOnHellChild says:

    Animals do enjoy eatin’ themselves some yummy lead.

  9. avatar Avid Reader says:

    Those weenies at the Times haven’t had lead in their pencils for years…

    1. avatar Notguiltfree says:

      AMEN brotha!!!

  10. avatar Bughunter says:

    SOF units are finally taking lead seriously. Guys have to get regular blood tests and stay within safe levels. Uniforms are not brought home and washers are provided at the units to wash lead contaminated clothes. Air filtration systems are being installed in indoor ranges.

    It would be good if we could find a safe alternative to lead. If for no other reason than to maintain supply.

  11. avatar Mediocrates says:

    I don’t see anything in the Constitution that grants the Federal government any authority over “lead”.

    1. avatar Pascal says:

      Your correct, and you can thank the republicans for creating the EPA

      Mr. [Russell E. ] Train developed the idea of establishing the Council on Environmental Quality, a policy office within the White House. He also helped persuade the Nixon administration to create the Environmental Protection Agency, empowered to execute and regulate the nation’s new program of safeguarding natural resources and protecting public health.

      “I felt strongly that environmental issues needed a sharp, cutting edge in government, one that had high visibility to the public,” Mr. Train recalled in his 2003 memoir, “Politics, Pollution, and Pandas.” And, he wrote, “this view finally prevailed.”

      Train was also a founding member of the African Wildlife Leadership Foundation and the World Wildlife Fund’s United States affiliate. Talk about your endangered species — Republican environmentalists have got to top that list.


    2. avatar Joe Grine says:

      Try the Commerce Clause. As for the creation of the EPA, its hard to argue with the fact that in the late 1960s – early 1970s, some environmental regulation was needed.

      1. avatar James Miller says:

        No doubt. Just look at photos of the smog in LA as far back as the 50’s.

        1. avatar Paul G. says:

          That is really stretching the commerce clause to apply it to environmental protection, such has nothing to do with regulating commerce. Between the commerce clause abuse and the general welfare clause abuse, it seems congress has unlimited powers, second only to the potus’ ability to legislate through executive order.

        2. avatar Yellow Devil says:

          So what did the EPA do where the state of CA or the city of LA failed?

      2. avatar doesky2 says:

        The fundamental problem with most government agencies like the EPA is that when they are created there should be a SUNSET date on when the agency gets disbanded. After this date they should have to go through the whole process of being re-authorized and it should be a high hurdle.

        1. avatar Jus Bill says:

          That’s WAAAAAY too sensible.

  12. avatar Merits says:

    Isn’t it true that poison, plague, bacteria, death, ebola, and climate change all emanate exclusively from the barrel of guns that weren’t background checked and accidentally discharge?

  13. avatar Pascal says:

    Non-lead ammo is already scarce and it will be even more so now.

    While it is technically possible to find alternatives, all of them are expensive and none are as abundant as lead.

    My whole issue with the lead and Condor debate is this, why are not other species that eat carrion not impacted?

    To me, this is just one more way to limit guns, by making things more expensive. IMHO, if hunters just stopped hunting for a few years it would create another environmental impact and they would be calling for hunters to come back. This what happened with Yale on their property that they own, now they have annual hunts again.

    1. avatar BlinkyPete says:

      I agree, and that’s one of the worst side effects of gun control and blind zealotry in general. When you conflate hundreds of made up issues with several real ones, the real ones get lost in the shuffle. I respect the hell out of hunters who choose to use steal or simply carry the lead-containing guts of their kills out, but I’m seriously suspicious of any attempts to ban the use of lead ammo in preserves outright, even if I agree with the theoretical intentions of the ban.

    2. avatar Sian says:

      It’s because metallic alloyed lead like in bullets, sinkers, and wheel weights has no significant impact on the environment, and will pass right through the system of a carrion bird or any other animal without so much as a how do you do.

      It is nothing but a thinly disguised tactic to hurt sportsmen and the gun industry.

    3. avatar EthanB says:

      To answer your question, allegedly condors are impacted because the way that lead is digested and absorbed into the blood differs from other scavengers. My understanding is that all raptors are affected similarly, but you know condors are endangered and important no one cares about a lowly buzzard.

  14. avatar John Fritz - HMFIC says:

    If this is all that the Senate fucked up this week then we should be pretty happy.

  15. avatar EthanB says:

    Third time is the charm, I can’t seem to get my comments to not get lost in the ether.

    The New York Times column refers to the Bipartisan Sportsmen’s Act of 2014 which is summarized here by the NSSF. This bill would have codified in law that EPA does not have authority to regulate lead ammunition or fishing sinkers.

    Currently, the EPA has ruled that it does not have the authority under the Toxic Substances Control Act (TSCA) to regulate either lead ammunition or fishing sinkers. EPA has been petitioned by the Center for Biological Diversity (CBD) among others to reverse its decision and regulate both the above items. In all cases (the latest in March 2014), EPA has maintained its position that it cannont regulate lead ammunition and fishing sinkers under TSCA. Information regarding the history of the lead ammunition bans can be found here from the NSSF as well as here and here from the NRA. Unfortunately, I wasn’t able to find the publication dates of these articles. A recent blurb by Alan Korwin regarding the most recent failed of the petition to ban lead ammunition is found here.

    The New York Times mischaracterizes the outcome of the failure of Bipartisan Sportsmen’s Act of 2014, current EPA rulings prevent regulation of lead ammunition and fishing sinkers. The New York Times request shows an extreme amount of hubris because it expects EPA to grant its petition when it denied the petitions of organizations with far more standing.

    While there is no immediate threat to lead ammunition, internal rulings by EPA are not held to precedent and, therefore, are mutable, meaning that with enough political pressure EPA may reverse its decision and regulate lead ammunition and fishing sinkers. Sportsmen and shooters (and fishermen) should be constantly vigilant for continued attacks on freedom of ammunition choice as well as infringements on our protected rights.

    1. avatar Jus Bill says:

      The New York Times could mischaracterize the rising and setting of the sun into an antigun/antihunting issue.

  16. avatar Not applicable says:

    If not lead can we start using depleted uranium or a less expensive derivative? Maybe a DPU frangible?

  17. avatar former water walker says:

    Glad some of you comedians think this is hilarious. Or paranoid. The biggest lesson I learned last year was NO AMMO-ya’ just got a PAPERWEIGHT… think 22.

    1. avatar The Brotherhood of Steel says:

      Don’t worry, this wont effect anything. This is just the times running its mouth on another one of its hate filled dreams. Not any kind of government statement. And on top of the EPA already shut down the US’s last lead smelter last year. Ammo prices are still dropping since then. The reason: This last lead smelter that everyone keeps talking about never sold lead to the ammo companies to begin with. They’ve been getting it abroad because its cheaper just like everything else in this economy.

  18. avatar Joe R says:

    The only thing more dangerous to the environment than the EPA is the UN.

  19. avatar KCK says:

    “including proposals from the Republican side to loosen gun safety laws.”

    Did you know that most NYT readers actually think that gun control laws are gun safety laws?
    It seems like we are loosing the war of words.
    And words represent ideas and how people think.

  20. avatar Bruce Abbott says:

    Last I knew, the Toxic Substances Control Act of 1976 specifically forbids the EPA from assuming authority over lead as used in ammunition. I once went to a town hall meeting with my congressman when the EPA tried to sneak in regulatory authority by declaring bullets a “significant new use” in the Federal Registry of proposed regulations. Blew up in their faces, that did; the place was packed and the Democrat in the office got the message loud and clear.

    Since the majority of ammo lead is recycled, how does the EPA claim authority if the TSCA is still in effect?

    1. avatar Ralph says:


      The EPA recognizes that it lacks statutory authority to regulate lead shot and bullets under TOSCA. It has authority over lead sinkers, but hasn’t decided to regulate their use.

  21. avatar Mark N. says:

    None of the performance tests I have seen on copper handgun bullets are terribly impressive. Aside from the expense and limited availability, they don’t seem to have enough mass to penetrate sufficiently.

    1. avatar D.G. Cornelius says:

      “expense and limited availability” solve which and whom’s fantasies?

      Some 15 years ago, I met a pretty wealthy man(in a job related occasion). We end up talking about various subjects. At some point, I brought up the subject of the fuel prices going up. He replied: “You know what? I wish they would triple the prices on it. So I can have the roads for myself, not share them with all others!” And he wasn’t joking.

    2. avatar Accur81 says:

      What ammo is that? Barnes TSX and TTSX are awesome. There are a lot of great lead-free loads out there. I took a deer with Hornady Superperformance 165 grain GMX .308 from my LTR and the round worked beautifully. The rounds just cost a whole lot more. Hence the interest anti-gunners have in banning lead. If lead is banned and copper is armor-piercing, you have instant gun control. They’d still have to ban bismuth, but it isn’t hard to see the endgame.

      1. avatar Anonymous says:

        Bullets can be made easily with zinc and aluminum. The Zinc at its melting temperature (~700-800F) is very reactive and disassociates the metallic grain of aluminum. Aluminum melts at around 1200F. But add aluminum to zinc at 800F and it dissolves into the zinc. This forms a hard (albeit light) bullet and one can still use a standard lee melting pot (don’t mix zinc with lead however) as lead melts at about 625F.
        Take the bullets – powder coat them – and load them and fire them. Problem solved. Beer cans (aluminum) and wheel weights(zinc). No one can stop us.

        1. avatar Sean in MT says:

          Another source of Zinc would be from sacrificial anodes for water heaters and boat outdrives. I love it that we can repurpose so many things into bullets. Good to know.

    3. avatar Geoff PR says:

      What about ShootingTheBull 410’s test of the Taurus Bull series handguns with Lehigh Defense Maximum Expansion 45 Colt?

      His quote- “Ho-Lee [email protected]!”

      1. avatar Mark N. says:

        A .45 long colt carries a much longer bullet than a standard handgun round. The standard round is 250 gr, and some load 300 gr or better. So you can put in a pretty sizeable bullet, unlike a 9 mm, a .45 acp or a .40. The heaviest .45 ACP I’ve seen in copper is 165gr, and it doesn’t get the job done. And I was specifically referring to handgun ammo, most of which is not used for hunting (and thus of minimal impact to the environment or is copper jacketed and again not much of an environmental impact), and not rifle rounds (which have the advantage of velocity, like the .300 blk Trident.)

  22. avatar Ing says:

    Poison shot from guns! Now this is a shocking development. Gotta get me one of those poison shooters. I imagine they’re so much more effective than mere bullets.

  23. avatar Anonymous says:

    Seriously though – lead is toxic. It’s not like Tylenol here – where concentration matters. Even the smallest amount of lead causes damage within the body. That said, in the environment, most lead compounds are insoluble in water. Lead hydroxide, chloride, carbonate, and sulphate are all insoluble. Lead oxide is also mostly insoluble. In an insoluble form, the lead is not very mobile within the soil. Plants can withstand lead far more than humans can, and pull lead compounds within the plant. Toxic lead can enter the food chain this way by means of animals eating the contaminated plants.

    That said, open your kitchen cupboard or go out into your garage. Most of those chemicals are toxic and deadly. Why target just lead? Brake disc cleaner. Sprays some on your legs and arms and breathe the vapors. If you don’t die within 24 hours you could however be permanently blind. Have some herbicide around? Roundup? Grass killer? Dimethylamine salt. Don’t get me started on that. So why play the lets pick on lead game. Do you think copper bullets are better? Take a drink of cupric chloride. It is no better than lead chloride. The EPA requires less than 5ppm of cupric chloride in drinking water.

    1. avatar Jeremy says:

      Thank you. Where everyone else got up in arms, you provided a logical, clear-headed alternative argument. That being said, let me play Devil’s Advocate…

      To shooters, trigger-pullers and threepers: You really give a shit what metal you’re slammin’ down range? Lead has it’s benefits sure, but since man discovered lead, you don’t think we found a BETTER metal for ventilating a Dbag? I love shooting AND the environment, therefore I side with the article. Let’s just pick another metal, we can still CALL it lead all we want, and we can keep making shit dead without making the WRONG shit dead.

      No one wants domestic terrorists to die of lead poisoning, we want them to die on an overdose of freedom. Lead is just a vessel. There’s better vessels out there. #rationalthinking

  24. avatar Blink says:

    If you want to keep lead out of the environment, hit your target

  25. avatar Doc says:

    i guess its a good thing most ammo company’s have gone frangible and are using different metals already huh lol. This is why i like Civil Defense, %100 aluminum construction.

  26. avatar Rick says:

    I actually think this is a good idea, use steel core copper bullets only.

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