Andy Hallinan [above] of Florida Gun Supply has supplied TTAG with the occasional testing and evaluation firearm. Andy recently declared that Muslims aren’t welcome in his store. The ban caught the eye of huffingtonpost.com‘s religion editor, who produced the ever-so-helpful Guide To Gun Stores And Ranges Declaring ‘Muslim-Free’ Zones. In the warm-up to the guide, Ibrahim Hooper states “These bigoted declarations are no different than ‘whites only’ signs posted in businesses during a period of our nation’s history that we had hoped was over.” Is the Council on American-Islamic Relations’s National Communications Director right? Are these bans wrong? Would/do you go to a gun range or buy from a gun store than bans Muslims? Should TTAG turn its back on Andy’s generosity?
I woulnt buy from this bigot.
Conventional wisdom is that people come to America to find more freedom. At least this is how is supposed to be.
The question is: are Muslims driven by the same desire? Freedom and equal rights is incompatible with Islamic religion/political system. As such, these people are not your loving freedom oppressed masses.
The question is why you will provide equal rights to people that deny that others (e.g. see the way women are treated)?
So we react to somebody denying them commerce because of their views but we don’t look at us denying him commerce because of his views? Isn’t that hypocritical?
So I will say that the owners reaction is a proper one and driven but what he sees as a religion/political system that is incompatible with freedom. I would buy from him any day.
Tolerating Islam is tolerating a political system that is totalitarian.
This is, of course, supposing that all Muslims are not US citizens to begin with.
And your point is?
The Boston bombers who blew up over 200 people were muslim Americans. Do I need to recount the citizenship and religion of the people who screamed “god is great” in arabic just before they killed, to you?
As a godless person you have said all religion is bad.
“The question is: are Muslims driven by the same desire?”
That’s not a valid question at all. In order for that question to be valid, all individuals that *are identified by others* as belonging to a particular religion share the exact same traits. The same likes, dislikes, flaws and strengths. Hopefully every sensible person will recognize that this is fundamentally flawed.
“but but but history percentage chances muh safety!”
No. We DO NOT take the actions of a few and put them on the larger population. Hell, we shouldn’t even put the actions of the majority on the individual. Leaving room for the individual to do the right thing is how we grow as a species. Excluding individuals based on the actions of others is how hatred on both sides festers.
“That’s not a valid question at all. In order for that question to be valid, all individuals that *are identified by others* as belonging to a particular religion share the exact same traits. ”
This has nothing to do with traits.
I looked at what the religion teaches. How can you be a good Muslim and in the same time allow women to vote?
You see, the contradiction is right there in the “religion of peace”. That was my point.
This religion/political system is incompatible with freedom regardless of what sugarcoating you do.
A religion teaching something is not a valid excuse to cast an entire population under the same light. Every major religion teaches a whole slew of things that rational people choose to ignore.
I mean, if your BS is the standard we’re going with, no-one that subscribes to religion in general can be trusted.
Nevermind the fact that people are often born into religions, and continue to officially be a member of that religion for family reasons despite not actually giving two damns about it.
The real root of the problem is that the whole “no muslims” thing is a pretty obvious way of saying “no brown people.”
I do not think that Islam itself (or the Quran, if you will) prohibits women from voting any more than Christianity (or the Bible) does. It is merely traditions borne from historic gender roles and justifications wrought by people adverse to change that have resulted in this in so many places.
Obviously this was meant to be a single example, however, I think it bears out the idea that perhaps things need to be studied rather closely before concluding that a huge segment of the world’s population are fundamentally incapable of enjoying and/or abiding by core tenants of US culture.
“Freedom and equal rights is incompatible with Islamic religion/political system.”
You’re mistaking Islamic for Progressive.
The two currently politically freest, as in where people are least oppressed by their respective governments, countries on the planet, Afghanistan and Somalia, are both nominally “Muslim….”
While in the Progressive States of America, Bloomberg and Obama both have access to kit, via bodyguards or not, that the rest of us can’t even dream of. “Equal” and “Freedom”, my rear…..
Yeah, they are “free” to be killed by gangs of thugs, “free” of the rule of law. that works great.
Side note: maybe my /sarc detector is defective and I did not get your post 🙂
>> The question is why you will provide equal rights to people that deny that others (e.g. see the way women are treated)?
Because I believe in freedom of speech and democracy?
Or are you saying we should ban GOP (since they also have a rather non-stellar record on rights of women in the past couple decades)?
O thou of the feelingless nuts.
You don’t even know where you heard or read that, you just know it sounds too right in your blue head to bother trying to investigate the reasoning. Big (D)uh.
On another note, this Infidel for JESUS, doesn’t give a shit when muslims are offended, and won’t be until they start to offend themselves and correct their own foul sh_t enough to make me want to even a little less. Stop offending me b_tch. I mean like now.
Yeah, I’d buy guns from/use Andy’s range.
Ali Babba on the rest of ya.
What you’re saying is… simply put that you know very little about Islam, the Middle East or the diversity of people found there….
To make that worse you paint others with the same sort of misinformed brush that we argue against when the anti-gun crowd uses it against us….
Do some Muslims do some crazy ass sh*t, yep and so do some Christians, Jews and Hindus. Screwed up, crazy assed people exist in the world and will use just about any excuse available to them in order to do crazy sh*t. If all Muslims were as you suggest, given that they make up a significant portion of the world population, well the world would be a much darker place to live.
As to the store, I for one wouldn’t bother shopping there. I prefer places not make judgments about people based on trivial matters that provide nothing in the way of a hint as to the sort of customer or person they are. I do wonder how they propose to know for sure if someone is Muslim or not. I know and have served with quite a few Muslims over the years who do not look different than any other person that I see running around here. When I lived in Jordan for a time for work, many if not most people there dressed the in the same clothes that I see on people here. It all sounds rather foolish and pointless if you ask me.
I don’t really care about the flag thing they are doing. The flag holds very little meaning to me personally. I think people have taken it all quite a bit too far. It boggles my mind that people are now treating it as though the flag was to blame for any wrongs that have happened. Idiocy at its best.
Sell the flag or not, that is your right.
While I agree it’s his right to do as he pleases with his store, I would not patronize it.
If they are American citizens, they have the same second amendment rights I do.
The entire reason we have a bill of rights is to protect the unloved minority, whatever it may be. (The majority generally does not need protection from persecution)
Your rights should be protected from the government. This is an action of a private citizen that doesn’t restrict their rights in any way.
He has every right to say he won’t serve someone in his establishment. I would and WILL actively encourage everyone to tell him to kindly choke on his next meal…
F*ck him long and hard and I hope he goes broke.
I’ll be making sure I get removed from their mailing list
“F*ck him long and hard and I hope he goes broke.”
That doesn’t inspire one to think that highly of your moral strength, which I thought was a pillar for your little club.
That man has the right to not associate with people for any reason he chooses. You have the right not to associate with him, just the same as I would never associate with anyone who claims 3percent. It was more like thirteen percent that actually helped the last time to uproot tyranny and its puppets.
I could give a flying sh*t less whether or not you like my opinion. Any sh*tbag who won’t serve someone based on their religion is no friend of liberty. And yes, I hope he loses his ass due to right-thinking (note: not an inference to politics) individuals telling him to pound sand for his backwards f*cking thought processes.
A few days from now some other fat white guy will be talking about how we need more of this or that minority in the gun community, but I’M the problem because I won’t support some bigoted POS who refuses to serve someone based on their faith.
Next cause celebre: “No Irish Need Apply!” being no big deal cuz those f*cking micks are all drunk wife beaters and if it just saves ONE child…
Matt: Sing it brother, sing it loud.
This whole thing smacks of racism hiding behind a veil of cowardice. As usual.
AnoninWa, yes, you are correct, the bill of rights protects us from government, not from other citizens.
Unalienable rights, endowed by a GOD rhey don’t believe in, freedoms from a gov’t they don’t espose the same rule of law of, protections from both the same by each own individual through their own RTKABA.
Yeah, so not into helping that. Not even the prez. thought that was a good idea either (in Iraq, Afghanistan, other parts of the middle east). Haven’t heard one muslim mouthier than me stand up for me. There’s us, and there’s them. Decide whenerver you’d like, just never assume the ballots haven’t already been counted.
I believe in the freedom of association just as much as the 2nd Amendment.
For all those people who wouldn’t do business with this guy because they believe that they are morally superior to him might want to look at the definition of bigoted then look at themselves in a mirror.
Honestly, it’s his decision and, as far as I’m concerned, not a big deal. I classify it alongside a restaurant doesn’t want crying children on its premises, or a bar that shuts down when it starts getting taken over by biker gangs. The world’s an untidy place.
I find his decision dopy and impractical. How can one be sure wether someone is a Muslim or not? You are trying to ban a religion; a belief system.
Also there are some patriotic Muslims, we can’t just paint them all with a broad brush. That would be like saying all who own a rebel flag are racists.
Muslim extemists are a problem, but giving them all the middle finger won’t solve it.
If they can be recognized as Muslims readily (beard, dress, turban or whatever) I support that completely, describes extremists within the U.S. Posting a sign to that effect I also support. Asking for proof of religion is ridiculous. IOW, come on in, but keep your religious silliness to yourself. In fact, I’d support that for ANY religion.
I’m fine with it. Their religion insists that they kill or convert those of us who are not Muslims. I have no problem with a business banning people who subscribe to that violent philosophy.
Yea, that’s not what Islam says on any reasonable interpretation. That would be like saying the Westboro Baptist Church has the right interpretation of the Bible.
The reason a moderate Muslim can’t win an argument with a radical one is because it is their religion’s dictate to convert or kill. They lose on core concept. Moderate is just newspeak for can’t do it yet. Anyone saying otherwise is lying.
But the Quran doesn’t say that…
It has been read to say that for 1500 years.
So, banning christians too?
Check out Deuteronomy chapter 13:10 for the specific statement, but the whole chapter 13 talks about killing non believers.
Jesus said to choose. muhammed said convert or die.
The lost sheep of Westboro Baptist subscribe more to the belief of muhammed than the beliefs of Jesus.
No Bob. You mean by any politically correct interpretation.
But by the Koran and the Hadith own words, but more importantly by Muhammad’s own actions, any devout Muslim is required to convert, subjugate or kill anyone not willing to be converted to Islam.
You can deny fact, but you are just showing your own unwillingness to do even the most cursory of investigation into the simple facts of the reality of Islam.
Now, as to whether doing a blanket denial of Muslims from my place of business? No. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Simply enforce the laws of our country, don’t allow Sharia law in this country, and carry a gun to defend against those predators not willing to live by western tradition of non-violence, whether by devout Muslim, common criminal or corrupt politician.
It’s the same as denying felons guns, a Muslim might no longer desire to be homicidal like Muhammad, give those that want to live by Western law a chance to see the error of their ways.
I’d recommend getting your info about Islam from something other than Fox news.
Oh Bob. You mean like from the Koran? From the Hadith?. Do you even know what the Hadith is? From history books? Continue showing your ignorance.
The other thing that the Hadith demands is that all good Muslims kill the Muslims that convert to another religion. Nice.
The godless ACLU supports the godless Nazis marching in jewish holocaust neighborhoods. Also the Westborough Baptist church is the best current example of religious speech that is protected by the 1st amendment. The godless ACLU supports them also.
You support free speech correct?
Yes, I support free speech, and in particular I support free speech for KKK, Nazis, and Westboro Church. As an ACLU member, I’m glad that they have stood for their ideals and supported all these people when their right to freedom of speech was infringed.
Of course, I’m also exercising my own right to free speech when I say that KKK, Nazis and Westboro Church (and the author of this video) are assholes whom I don’t want to associate with, beyond ensuring that they can enjoy the same rights that I am.
“I’m fine with it. Their religion insists that they kill or convert those of us who are not Muslims. I have no problem with a business banning people who subscribe to that violent philosophy.”
So, in other words, banning is A-OK as long as those being banned are being called baaad by some half literate, progressive hack on TV, but not otherwise?
In a free world, a private business can choose to not render service to anyone for any reason whatsoever, so it’s not like banning “Muslims” is wrong. Any more than banning black people or women or gays or veterans or disabled people or guys named Mike is wrong.
It does WHAT??? I’d really love to see the Koran you read that in. Wait…you DIDN’T read that yourself, did you? They said that on the News a few times, so it must be true. Just the same as in the Christian faith, the Islamic faith has people who interpret the Koran differently. The same holds true with the Bible, and make no mistake, over the last thousand years Christians have been every bit as filled with malice & evil, justifying their actions because “the Bible says so”….except it didn’t, doesn’t now & never did. They interpreted various passages to suit their needs at the time. They too were very much the minority of Christians at the time, just as the Muslims who interpret the Koran to say all non-believers should be killed…the minority…the vast minority.
You can paint this with all sorts of rosy, pretty as a peach justifications of why it’s the right thing to do, but scrape off all the makeup & the pretty paint and look at it for what it REALLY is; racism.
Race has nothing to do with it. And you can’t see religion. Any muslim can STFU and use the place as much as they like, posting such a policy is just telling them he disapproves of the things their religion supports. Jews have been under similar criticism/banning for many centuries, especially by Muslims, let them see how it feels.
I would stop doing business with them.
> Should TTAG turn its back on Andy’s generosity?
Unless you want to be associated with uneducated people that poorly reflect on all gun owners… yes
Bust most of the f*cking slackjaws around here are on board and ready to pony up the money in their pockets.
With no legitimate argument against gun control those trying to limit the Second Amendment are reduced to logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks. Instead of the issues and facts it will be guilt by association, that by accepting test pieces from this range you tacitly support and/or endorse his decision. They cannot take away your facts, they can erode your credibility.
“They cannot take away your facts, they can erode your credibility.”
That is an important distinction, because when the statist, who try to force their control over you have only emotional evidence, then their credibility is found out to be taken for what it is worth. Eventually, smart men have to realize, that the statists attacks on their character become seen as the logical beginning of your eradication to them.
First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.
– Martin Niemoller
And the “they” this quote refers to includes the Mullah in charge of Palestine at the time, whose residence in Berlin was a short walk acroos the gardens to the Chancellory, where he frequently met with and advised Herr Hitler on policy regarding the Jews.
Certainly, by all means let’s be sure to invite these folks in, hand them weapons and ammunition. Perhaps we can line up blindfolded against the wall for them, save them the trouble of trying to organize those obstinate Americans!
I’d buy a reverberating carbonizer with mutate capacity from Jack Jeebs if I got a decent deal.
And he’s known to sell to unlicensed cephalopoids, so he’ll have no compunctions about selling one to you
Hey, some of my best friends are Cephalopoids!
Yeah, but did you ever try to run one down on foot?
Does he sell to machines who wear human skin as a camouflage? My uncle was trying to do an honest business transaction with one and it got him killed. The machine wanted to buy a .45 long slide with laser sight, an Uzi 9mm, a 12 gauge autoloader, and a phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range.
Your uncle was Dick Miller?
Oh! Me like a 40W Phased Plasma rifle!
My personal belief is that personal beliefs should be kept to oneself… so, now we all understand where martyrs come from, don’t we class?
Yet you just posted a personal belief on the interwebz.
Personal beliefs lead to all kinds of contradictions and hypocrisy, don’t you know?
No, I wouldn’t. As with any movement, some of its worst enemies come from within its own ranks.
“As with any movement, some of its worst enemies come from within its own ranks.”
The Second Amendment is not a movement to many of us, because it is a way of naturally exercising personal responsibility and respect for protecting the gift of life, which is a natural gift that transcends man’s law.
A right is protected from social pressure and that means the only social movement that can forfeit an American’s right is a revolution, unless an Amendment is passed. Denying an American citizen their rights through fiat law, is fundamentally against the ideals that were ratified in the American Bill of rights.
True, the Second Amendment is the Constitutional protection of a natural right. However, that does not mean there cannot be a political or social movement to defend that right from being trodden upon. If we all just sat on our laurels believing that the exercise of our rights couldn’t be abridged through government action, it can and *will* be abridged through government action.
Anyway, back to the topic: This guy can be a bigot all he wants, it’s his property and his right to turn away people. But it’s a stupidly reactionary and self-defeating stance, and one that I don’t want associated with me as a gun owner.
I would never do business with anyone who bans any certain religion, sexual preferences, race etc. this is ignorant and disgusting. If you continue to do business Robert, you will lose one daily visitor.
Freedom of association means It is your choice to stay or go. Free choice is much better than freedom of association by gunpoint of a government employee, or in the noose of an ignorant and emotional social media lynch mob.
If they were the best around, yes. I don’t have much against private discrimination, even though I likely wouldn’t do it myself.
Oh, and I am way way less fearful of Muslims than I am of police. I also might avoid an such establishment if it they implied that my patronage was an endorsement of their views.
america’ s prejudices are in their infancy.
sell to me. rent to me. donate to me.
don’t like it? cast your economic vote else place.
Is this really that difficult of a decision? Like it or not, who you choose to associate with says a lot about you.
And “that which you ignore, that which you are silent about, and that which you defend, are equal to you in what you espouse” [TERMS, J.M. Thomas R., 2012].
Andy doesn’t want to equate himself, or be equated, to those that don’t do enough (by Andy’s liking) to prevent being equated to some of their iwn kind that NO ONE ELSE HERE WANTS TO BE EQUATED TO. Right?
You are better to cut it off. I don’t agree with their religion or culture but excluding them is not the way to win them over. These clowns don’t get it. This is not what my savior died for. He didn’t sacrifice himself so people could hate people. It’s all about hearts and minds. Jesus hung around with the lowest kind of people. The people that society and the world rejected. These guys don’t live in truth. If your hand causes you to sin it is better to cut off. So cut it off.
That sword cuts both ways; you will shun the proprietor because of his beliefs – is that what Jesus would’ve done?
Religions, inherited personal beliefs, and the exploitation of belief are the problems – not the people who one way or another who fall victim to them.
Yes, that IS what Jesus would have done. Jesus was all about relationships and relating to people in a way that convicted them to change through love not through judgement. And you are right about one thing. The main problem with religion is not the religion itself. The problem is that in many cases it is run by sinful men who wish to have power and control over others. Many men wish to be gods but only one God became a man.
I’d like to agree with you completely, and in a way I do, but Jesus didn’t even shun Pontius Pilate (more’s the worse, n’est pas?).
Jesus did not condemn Pontis Pilate, because Jesus was showing his love for man by giving his life.
Jesus was a peaceful man not a pacifist, and him whipping the money changers is proof that resistance to corruption was necessary.
I think the line to be drawn here is how those beliefs manifest. If he merely said that all Muslims are enemies or suchlike, but not changed his business practices, then I don’t see a problem using his business – it’s distinct from the person, and distinct from their beliefs. But when he implements those beliefs into business practices, then patronizing that particular business of his becomes support for the beliefs.
You might think that America is a place for softies, as we live “under GOD”, that some muslims would kill us for. You might be f-ng broke di<k ignorant that you can diss my religion and beliefs and my GOD, and at the same time ask me to be more CHRIST-like. But that would be just amother way you'd be fu<king wrong. Convert to Christianity or fake it good enough until you're dead, and maybe I won't abandon mine completely. Other than that FU again.
>> You might be f-ng broke di<k ignorant that you can diss my religion and beliefs and my GOD, and at the same time ask me to be more CHRIST-like.
I can, actually. You know why? Because Jesus told you so. So if you want to go to Heaven, you better damn learn to be more Christ-like on a short notice. I hear the Christian hell is rather nasty, too.
OTOH if you want to cuss all you want and threaten to kill people, you might want to convert to Asatru.
Not familiar w/asrutu, I’ll keep my own counsel on what pamphlets to pick up though, thanks.
If you feel threatened turn in your guns and go get some counseling, maybe they can medicate you? Dunno. Either way, be grateful. I saw a guy get burned in a cage recently (granted, only on the internet, and tv) the production was definitely a concerted effort. But your comment makes me wonder if the burnt dude would have been grateful if he could just feel “threatened” instead of ‘toast’ by another evil hoard of sh_tbags that are about 1.5 millenia late for eradication. Got lot less play here overall, but would not want to be waiting in line behind any of them to purchase a gun or wait my turn in line for a range lane, and your right, i can’t tell them apart, and they don’t seem to care enough about that. And you seem way too supportive.
It disappoints me that you even had to ask.
Yes, without a second thought. Islam is the enemy of European Civilization (that includes us in the States btw) and will remain so until the end of time.
Are you a feudal serf?
I can still give you the leaders of the free world and founders of the United Nations in 1945 were all Christians, at least at one time if not all of their lives, though.
Britain – George V, Winston Churchill, Clement Atlee (all Church of England)
China – Chiang Kai Shek (Methodist)
France – Charles De Gaulle (Roman Catholic)
USA – Harry S. Truman (Baptist)
USSR – Joseph Stalin (Eastern Orthodox)
And… we’ll just forget the Ottoman Empire ever existed, shall we?
Sorry, I forgot to mention dear Roosevelt, who apparently was an Episcopalian.
There’s a lot of uncertainty around Stalin, but just based on his actions, he’s far more likely to have been an atheist, and paid some lip service to Orthodoxy when it was convenient (and stopped as soon as it was no longer necessary).
Not being a moslem, I would see no issue with it.
I would boycott the bigot. It’s funny how gun owners’ll say that you can’t judge all of us for the actions of a few, and then turn around and do the exact same thing.
Exactly people can’t seem to realize that it’s not Muslims, or gun owners, or Christians, it’s assholes and they are part of every movement and group
A scary number of gun owners are a part of the problem… Don’t worry, sometime next year they’ll be stamping their feet and cursing that it’s those people who think for themselves that cost them the election…
“It’s funny how gun owners’ll say that you can’t judge all of us for the actions of a few, and then turn around and do the exact same thing”
WE gun owners are judged by the acts of evil men, because those evil men used a gun instead of knife or hammer. Gunowners always condemn the acts of evil men, and those acts reassure gunowners that self defense is a natural right, not based in political correctness .
Muslims are judged because the weapon that causes them to kill innocent people is their religion.
The misuse of Islam. Just like the misuse of Christianity is responsible for countless atrocities. Just like the misuse of firearms reflects poorly on gun owners. I abhor religion, but the majority of adherents aren’t deranged fundamentalists. Same with gun owners (not the abhorring part). The analogy was fair.
Wes, gun owners don’t say that. They say judge all you want, just don’t infringe. It’s what we agreed on, and you just don’t rate changing it without much more buy-in than your ever going to be close to touting. No one appointed you to king, god, duke of anything.
We, aren’t asking to be led (don’t let me hear anyone repeat that stupid phrase that we all are). We’re all asking to be left alone. We give our U.S. a job. That job is to stay out of or way, and warn others out of our way, and keep foreigners out of our way.
True orthodox Muslims can be dangerous, since the koran dictates that they kill or convert infidels. That said, there are those who do not follow these old teachings, just as most Jews nowadays don’t go around stoning adulterers and homosexuals.
By banning all Muslims, the shop owner has done that which we decry the left for, judging an entire population by the actions of the few mentally unstable members.
I’d be more interested in how they determine who is and isn’t Muslim.
Yup. Because unless being a Muslim has a membership card (I don’t think it does), and they’re asking to see it, what they’re really doing is saying “Brown people not welcome.” Because of course all brown people are Muslim and there are no caucasians practicing the one true faith, right?
He has the right to do what he wants with his business, but I would choose not to associate with him.
Try to shake their left hand?
I would suggest that if they let you shake their left hand, they ARE muslim, and laughing at you.
Would he turn away a Muslim that was a US soldier? There are plenty of decent Muslims on our side.
There was a Gun store in NC that had a sign up saying it only sold to Americans.
Yeah, like Nidal Hasan.
I saw that sign, at the time I was not a U.S. citizen, that being said their prices sucked and I have never purchased from them. I did take the time to correct them and informed them that even the purchase of NFA items was allowed by non US citizens, green card and visa holders.
Nothing says “I’m on our side” like being a tax feeder in Obama’s employ…..
I wish the gun store that sold the guns used to shoot up FtHood to a Muslim US Army major had not done so.
Later a gun store in Texas did refuse to sell a gun to a ft Campbell ky muslim soldier who was planning a mass shooting also at Ft hood. That former soldier is in prison now.
I’d LOVE to know which shop this was
Because you asked.
Naser Jason Abdo (born April 1, 1990) is an American former US Army Private First Class who was arrested July 28, 2011 near Fort Hood, Texas and was held without bond for possession of an unregistered firearm and allegedly planning to attack a restaurant frequented by soldiers from the base. He was convicted in federal court on May 24, 2012 of attempted use of a weapon of mass destruction, attempted murder of federal employees, and weapons charges. He was sentenced on August 10, 2012 to two consecutive sentences of life in prison, plus 60 years.
On July 27, 2011, the staff of the Guns Galore gunstore in Killeen, Texas near Fort Hood noted that Abdo bought an unusually large amount of smokeless gunpowder, three boxes of shotgun ammunition, and a magazine for a pistol. A clerk notified the Killeen Police Department, who tracked Abdo to the Best Value Inn and Suites
If you’re more interested in politically correct public relations then stop associating with this American. Hearts and minds, etc.
If you are more concerned with the rights of private businesses owners, carry on.
Are there other hidden or character factors involved? What do you perceive to be the real and tangible outcomes?
You can respect the rights of a business without patronizing them. Freedom of association cuts all ways.
I won’t buy from this jackass.
So “voting with your wallet” is being PC? Gotta call BS on that.
“freedom of association is good as long as I don’t disagree with you”
Supporting the right of a private business owner to be a bigot doesn’t necessarily mean supporting him financially. He’s got every right to ban whoever he wants from his store, but he’s got to accept the consequences of doing so. Which may include losing business from people who don’t agree with your actions.
There is a fundamental moral difference between an individual choosing not to patronize a business because of a difference of opinion, and the government using their monopoly on violence to force a business to do business with someone against their will.
I will not buy any products from Florida Gun Supply, and I hope TTAG severs any business relationship with them. Further, I hope they go out of business. The government, however, has no right to intervene. This is how freedom works.
It’s truly frustrating how difficult it seems for some Americans to grasp such a simple, obvious concept.
What about the notion of equality? It is IMPOSSIBLE for you to force Andy to equate himself with certain bad players (of which some predominance were muslims and they used guns to do bad things)[and it’s not just Andy, even the people here that are sticking up for muslims aren’t equating themselves with the muslims that Andy doesn’t want to be equated with]. Andy’s protest is against that equivocation for himself and his business, and it’s likely a protest by Andy, because he’s not getting enough of a dissassociative vibe from non-bad-player muslims and so he’s forcef to lump them all in.
I believe the 2A is for ALL Americans. If a gun store bans anyone based on religion, sex or anything else I would not do business with them.
He’s not denying anybody a right, he’s denying them commerce, in support of his freedoms of speech, association and religion which are actual rights.
This sounds like the beginnings of a slippery slope. Close all gun stores and you’re just “denying commerce” and not denying people’s rights to bear arms? Ban ammo sales, you’re just denying commerce?
This yahoo is a PRIVATE citizen. Not the government. There is no “slippery slope” as far as private citizens go in free worlds, as they can there definitionally do whatever they please.
Sure, and we’re denying him commerce right back. What’s the problem?
As an atheist I suppose I’m next.
A business is private property and the owner should be able to choose who he will or won’t do business with. The marketplace will decide whether or not he made the right choice.
As a guy that buys a lot of guns (then trades them back at huge losses), I’d probably pass by a shop that advertises discrimination just because I can also choose who I want to trade with, and I doubt I’d like or trust that owner.
Then again, I also avoid places that display flags of our country’s enemies.
As an atheist would you cut the heads off of those who disagreed with you and murder people in mass? Would you murder me and my family because we happen to be followers of Christ?
For a minute there, I thought you were talking about the Crusades or Inquisition.
From decades of doing defense business in the Middle East (Turkey and Israel), I’ve found the huge majority of Muslims to be directly comparable to the huge majority of Christians in their morality, business and social. Both have their radicals and both have their ignorant masses, but both have their thoughtful, honest and loving adherents as well.
No, I wouldn’t go around chopping off heads or raping prisoners. Nor would any civilized people. Don’t blame the religion. Or, blame … religions.
What does using your way back machine , going 500 years backwards have to do with muslim men flying airplanes into office buildings with up to 50,000 people working in them?
Yes, most people from around the world just want to sit in their lazy-boy recliner with a beer and watch a good action movie. All cultures and religions have their extremist. At the moment it the Muslim extremists. In the UK a few years ago the terrorists were Catholics (IRA).
l would suggest the ATF send in a Muslim agent to inspect this store. That would be interesting.
Freedom to refuse to serve anyone you want? No Black? Mexicans? No Irish. No Women No Liberals, No gays. Are you OK with this?
Crusades argument is bs. People wanted to go see the birthplace, and place of the passion of CHRIST, and the muslims (who were only nomadic between very few cities) needed to be defended against, because the were (like they are now) heavily associated with a sub-element. Saudi Arabia protects mecca more strenously today, and muslims enjoy much of the same world view of them that has always existed because, stereotypes may initiate in ignorance, but they persist because too many people live up to them.
muslims have a low literacy rate, and it’s intentional, it makes interpretations of their scripture more readily adaptable and their people more pliable. If you can point to a muslim controlled country you’d like to convert America to, i’ll devote more of my attention to relocating you there.
You mean atheists like Stalin, Mao, Pol-Pot?
Over one hundred million and more, murdered by proud athiests. After all, religion is the opiate of the masses.
Sigh. There are “useful idiots” (per Stalin) that are easily led by the newest anf sexiest belief system, whether by some G-d, or by none at all. The most current useful idiots are the communists/socialists/marxists and the belief system that does not recognize individuals as anything more than some “collective good”.
Why would someone fight for the right to become a non-entity?
And your opinion of Marshall Tito?
There are evil atheists too, of course. Many athiests were communists. Personally, I’m at the opposite end as a free-market libertarian. I’d guess some of us might be evil too, but it’s unlikely we’d ever get organized enough to do any harm (inside libertarian joke there).
My background as a Marine officer and aerospace engineer took me all over the world. The OP simply reflects my observations. Islam and Christianity have more in common than not, though Jesus commanded his followers to love their enemies, even though it’s hard. My observation of self-proclaimed Christians is that hate is easier and much more common.
Marshall Tito? Didn’t really know much about him before you asked. Benevolent Dictator of Yugoslavia. He seemed more sane than so many with that kind of power that end up being blood soaked monsters.
It seemed he as a communist, was an exception to the rule that he did not kill millions of his own country men in establishing and maintaining his rule. He is also the example that when there is a place that is “multi-cultural”, only a strong centralized dictatorship can maintain control. He did try to decentralize his rule, but the proof is in the pudding, once he died, his union fractured into inter-tribal warfare. Which means his efforts at decentralization and the relative peace he had during his rule was based on his personality rather than any inherent strength of the “multi-culturalism” of Yugoslavia.
That is pretty much the rule, and why this push for us in the US to push “multi-cultural” versus the “melting pot” is so dangerous.
Just a brief over-view, I’ll read more about him. A very interesting character!!
So, what would you say were Tito’s driving values, what underpinned his strategy and achievements?
Most likely, the usual: a simple lust for power and control.
The 2A doesn’t discriminate against anyone in this country. No matter the personal feelings. But at the end of the day, it’s his store, so his call.
“Would You Go To A Gun Range or Buy From a Gun Store That Bans Muslims?”
Yes, I would absolutely.
If the price was right I would in a New York minute.
Plus the Four-Year to Permit rejection period.
Personally, while I find aspects of that particular religion abhorrent, the same could be said of many belief systems. If you wish to personally discriminate (non violently) against a particular belief system, that should be your individual right (though not appropriate for governmental bodies). However I think it’s important to decide what it is that angers us about a particular belief. If you simply dislike the different belief for being different, then it seems a bit immature. If your concern however is that you are threatened by those beliefs, or that you feel those beliefs are inherently geared towards the restrictions of free speech, thought etc., you may have a valid concern
Except, how do you change the outwardly expressed behaviour of people of other belief systems to more closely resemble, or at least peacefully coexist? In this case I’ve always thought that it can be done through providing a clear alternative to the fundamentalist behaviour of various peoples. Show through action the benefit of tolerance, free trade, free speech, *mass gun freedom*. I am reminded of a woman who was part of a terrorist group, seemingly dedicated, associated with “The Garden of the Righteous”. If you don’t know who I’m talking about, do some research on the Beslan massacre, and enjoy the rabbit hole. Anyway, carrying explosives, intending to cause terrible casualties, she walked around Moscow and was struck by the affluence, the freedom, and the beauty of a more free society (and this in Russia?! How much more could we show such a person?). She turned herself in, and ended up earning a degree of freedom for herself, and averting many deaths. The point is, we who live in the most free society, despite our many restrictions, should focus our efforts on bringing as many people to our own understanding as possible, even at personal expense. Otherwise we may find ourselves surrounded by ignorant masses headed by those more bigoted than ourselves, cheered onwards by those we slapped in the face. Human rights remain natural rights of all people despite much of the world denying so many of them, which include gun rights. Why would a freedom loving gun owner try to contribute to the problem? A little temporary and assumed safety perhaps? Foolishness, though I understand his concerns. I just believe that what I say I believe should always apply, and not simply when it is convenient, safe, without risk, or when the other person is exactly the same as me. Otherwise we commit ourselves to eternal conflict rather than fighting it.
Wow! Just Wow!
Well said. Very good judgement, i agree 100%
I also avoid the outdoor ranges in my state that don’t allow gay people to join despite them putting on good uspsa and 3gun matches.
>> the outdoor ranges in my state that don’t allow gay people to join
Wow, there are actually places that’ll do that?
Can you name names?
Hell no, and I cant wait until a couple of Sikhs get turned away for being scary and brown.
Which would be hilariously ironic when you consider the history between Sikhs and Islam
The Sikh Temple in Milwaukee was shot up in 2012, killing six, by a white supremacist who worried about a “coming holy war”.
Problem is Sikhs in no way promote holy wars, but brown skin and headwear were close enough for him. That is the sort of crap fearful ignorance breeds.
Sikhs believe forced religious conversion is evil and defend against it, even by forceful means if nonviolent attempts fail. There couldn’t be a more opposite group to Islam.
Yes, I would buy from them and go to their range. Why wouldn’t I??
There is 1.57 billion Muslims in the world, if they were as bad as this guy seems to think they are he wouldn’t be around to say this. This religion has messed up origins? Yep, but many religions have skeletons, and beliefs have some shitty things. Applying our current morality with historic situations often brings these to light.
Really don’t care and sort of a waste of space for an article. People get way to butt blasted over a nonevent in the grand scheme of things.
I’m going to take the counterpoint as devils advocate on this one. Is what this guy is doing any different than the people who put gun free zone signs on their business?
Think about it, what does a “No Muslims” policy accomplish? Like the “No Berretas” sign, it:
– Has no force of law
– Is misguided by fear (or ignorance) that this particular group of people will cause harm to your business whether that is physical harm due to violence, or harm due to lost customers or complaints from those who share similar fears to you.
– Will be completely ignored by the people who are actually intent on doing harm
So I think my response is, I would probably respond the same way I would to any “No________” (guns, blacks, gays, etc etc) sign… I wont go out of my way to avoid them, but if I have no compelling specific reason to be there, I will probably keep on walking.
That’s a good point. Since it’s sort of a pointless gesture, I have to wonder if these folks really believe they’re doing something with these bans, or if they’re just trying to get attention.
I would boycott this unAmerican piece of trash.
Care to articulate exactly what is unAmerican about him?
Or are you really just labeling him unAmerican because he doesn’t represent your rainbow coalition world view of what an American is?
This man is stating that he will ban people solely based on if they believe that there is no other god than Allah and Mohamed is his prophet. He does not care how they act, or what they do. He is willing to ban farmers, police officers, pro second amendment activists, and even soldiers who have fought and killed Muslim terrorists, solely based on his ignorant and bigoted views on their religion.
He even chooses to make that message known sitting in front of the Confederate States battle flag while referring to the United States as the enemy. I’ll give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he meant enemy during the Civil War, but I’m not sure that he didn’t mean that in the present tense.
One of the great things about this nation is that we don’t care what you look like, where you are from or what your religious beliefs are. Show up, get to work, obey the law, protect your family and this nation, and if you want to be one, we’ll call you an American. It’s one of the things that makes this nation unique, and exceptional.
I don’t know, looking at history, banning groups of people for no good reason other than just being an asshole seems to be an American pastime.
Far as I’m concerned these political ‘buycots’ are just stupid all around and I don’t care. Would I buy from this guy? If he has a good sale on something I wanted, then sure. Other wise, then no. I’d buy a gun from Micheal Bloomburg himself if he was legitimately non-politically trying to sell me something I wanted at a good price. Well… it would have to be a REALLY good price. >,,>
Here’s an idea — let’s turn our backs to all relationships with pro-2A people who say things we don’t like. Then, when we’re all alone, surrounded by people who are trying to confiscate our guns, we’ll wonder why there’s nobody left to help us. Wow. What a great plan!
Let Andy Hallinan do what he wants to do. It’s his store. Or does that only count in his favor when he says things we like to hear, like some libtarded politician who blows smoke up people’s asses?
Ralph, you make too much sense. +1
But Ralph, he’s not just saying something I disagree with. He’s intentionally making a dramatic statement, and taking a drastic action, that I disagree with. If he just said, “I don’t like Muslims”, that would be one thing, but that’s not what he’s doing.
Of course he has every right to his beliefs, and I’ll defend those rights. But there are a whole lot of stores out there to do business with and I’ll do business with the ones that don’t take dramatic, vocal actions that I disagree with.
So we should embrace white supremacists as long as they support the 2A?
I have a Muslim buddy that is a cold diehard American as anyone else AND takes his religion very seriously. Very pro 2A, and carries a gun on a daily basis, too.
I have always felt that actions should speak louder than words…. and his did in late 2006: He was awarded a Bronze Star with “V” device [for valor] for pulling some injured comrades out of a [ambush] kill zone in Eastern Iraq. He subsequently medically retired from the Army after losing his lower leg during an airborne operation (a fractured ankle that led to tissue death).
I cannot stand the bigotry in America, such as the fool above.
Now that sir is America. The story of your friend fighting for freedoms stands in stark contrast to the bigot that is doing what he can to deny freedom. Ponder that for a second, he is trying to exclude people from 2nd Amendment liberties in the midst of the 2nd Amendment being attacked. He’s giving a big middle finger to some of our allies in our shared struggle to protect our constitutional rights.
Well, I know of dozens of Muslims who have committed terrorist acts and murders in the US, so I guess my anecdotes outweigh your anecdote.
Your friend is a hero. That doesn’t mean all Muslims are heroes.
Ralph, what about the dozens (millions) of non-Muslims who have done the same acts? We should be careful how broad we paint that brush.
Oh Ralph, you’re intentionally missing the point. If only the store was unwilling to serve people of any belief who had committed terrorist acts it’d be different. But if he’s going to be consistent with his stated discrimination, he’d turn away the Muslim veteran too.
No, I didn’t miss the point. My point is that Noah insists that all Muslims should be treated well because he knows one who is a hero. Hallinan insists that all Muslims should be treated poorly because he knows of many who are murderers.
They are both preaching the same sophistry.
No-one is saying that Muslims should be treated “well”. Only that they should be treated in exact same way as any other person walking into that store.
Yeah, you did completely miss the point. No where did he say that.
I have no personal prejudice against Muslims as long as they are civil and Americanize to our way of life, by all means, come in and be-welcome. I do have a problem trusting Muslims as a whole, even if they aren’t radicalized, a lot of them are still sympathetic with anti-American causes and against Western Civilization. Europe has fully embraced the all-inclusiveness of Muslims in their communities, and look at where it’s gotten them. Their demographics are radically changing because of the low-birth rates of European ethnicity, and the high birth rates and immigration of Muslims. Sharia law is finding it’s way into those countries. I just read a story a last week about how some French women were sun-bathing in the park, and they were attacked and beaten by a group of female Muslims for their immorality. The problem is that too many of them are NOT adapting to western civilization, but are instead bringing their fundamentalism in and adapting the western world to them. You’ve seen how western media trips all over itself to not print anything critical of Muslims, and that’s because of fear. In a few more decades, Europe will be the Middle-east 2.0 in things continue the way they are.
When almost any religion has their fundamentalists, they are usually pretty wacky, and sometimes extreme, but one thing they typically are not is violent. Can the same be said of Muslims? I believe Richard Dawkins had this to say, “No, all religions are NOT equally violent. Some have never been violent, some gave it up centuries ago. One religion conspicuously didn’t.”
I think we have to stop ignoring the very real threat of Muslims who refuse to adapt to our way of life. Recognizing the dangers of this group and speaking out about it isn’t bigotry, it’s called having a brain.
Supposedly modern societies with distinctly Victorian moral standards; get naked.
Nope, there are better people to give money to than media whore flaming shit birds!
And certainly no reason to boycott a Jew hating NAZI party or KKK owner.
We are so screwed up today we no longer have any sense of who our enemies are or what makes puts our very survival at risk.
I don’t buy from bigots! The idea of supporting those views is despicable.
No, don’t patronize him. Rights are meant for everyone, not to mention the fact that TTAG is pretty much the premier voice on liberty in arms. With your publicity you’re voting for his policies.
But at the same time, don’t demonize him. His choices are his own, and no matter what the birdcage media seems to think, they don’t define us as a community.
Wrong on 2 counts. Banning people as a group. What happened to individual rights and responsibilities?
And that rag of a flag.
I’m glad someone else noticed that shit flag. It’s hilarious that someone could claim to be a die hard American and then go around banning individuals from exercising their rights in front of the banner of a bunch of traitors.
yes. A business can refuse to serve anyone they want.
My general rule is, dont be a d***. If this guy is willing to treat a particular subset of his potential customers with contempt, he’s probably willing to treat any of his customers this way. Bad customer service is bad business, and he may not see it, but I’m sure his bottom line reflects it.
1) as a lighter complected brother, I often am mistaken for muslim, turkish, mexican, etc. so how does this guy know who is deserving of his generosity?
2) I find it funny you have to ask Robert, when you know if the store said no Jews, you would harp about it right here and swear never to do business with them again. .. . .
Dirk, I’ve had people with the same reaction, including one who thought he was going to “report me for being suspicious” and called the cops. (I’m a former deputy with the department he called, so I chuckled at that one)
I have olive tan skin, black hair, funny nose + full beard. I guess that’s close enough to Muslim…except I’m 100% Sicilian and Catholic. I wonder if I could buy a gun at this Florida shop?
He bans Muslims, has his picture taken in front of a symbol of slavery. Not the best the human race has to offer. I admit to have become a “Muslim phobe” since at least some of them have declared their desire to kill me and my family. All things considered, lots of people sell guns. This man would not be my first choice.
I understand his view and can understand, yet I believe he’s taking a risk and likely placing himself at odds with the law. I have some very strong opinions on the Muslim community myself. As a business it would seem more wise to welcome all legal persons.
I would continue doing business with them, the problem is theirs to own, not TTAG.
“Would You Go To A Gun Range or Buy From a Gun Store That Bans Muslims?”
oh hell yeah i would!
Anyone that wants to “ban” anything is a democrat. Period.
I wouldn’t quote CAIR being that they were founded and are directly funded by the Muslim Brotherhood, you know the organization that is considered a terrorist group in almost every Nation on earth save post-Obama America. As per banning a religious group from your place of business, that’s a slippery slope in a society that should believe in individual freedom. Shades of the U.S. Government knocking on my great Grandparents door in 1942 because of our German patriarch. We are at war, and 99.99% of the terrorist in the world at the moment are Islamic, and we are bringing in refugees by the tens of thousands, almost every single one from a radical sect of Islam, and CAIR is meeting with top Obama officials weekly at the White House, and…. Point being it’s complicated and we cannot trust that the people in charge actually want to beat radical Islam any time soon.
My first supervisor in the military was a Muslim. Screw this guy and every bigot like him
Insensitive joke of the day:
Did he teach you how to make IEDs?
Back to seriousness: How can the gun store owner see who is muslim or not? It isn’t like we carry a sign that says “muslim here” with an arrow pointing towards us. I mean, will he just throw out people who “look muslim”? As in, a guy with a turban comes in and he’ll throw him out because he’s obviously a muslim? I don’t see how that would work.
In the military, you hear jokes that would make an SJW’s ears bleed.
Regarding identifying a Muslim, maybe we should start requiring them to wear little crescent moons on their clothes?
Not a chance. It is hard to name a culture or religion that hasn’t been “bad” at some point in time. And even then it certainly wasn’t every member.
He is an ignorant fool. Bad for all.
I’m not commenting on the buying or not, but I just wanted to point out that having the PR director of CAIR (Council of American Islamic Relations) give an opinion on this, in my mind, removes any legitimacy.
CAIR has had multiple ex-members come out saying it is an American front group for the Islamic Brotherhood. Many nations consider the Islamic Brotherhood to be a terrorist organization and to provide substantial support to many terrorist groups around the world. CAIR representatives, at various times, have refused to condemn violence, suicide bombings, honor killings, and instances of violence against women.
I go to whoever has the best prices, regardless of their views.
Absolutely not. I hope the laws of economics puts bigots like those in the unemployment line.
Not all Muslims are the same. Head chopping ISIS members don’t reflect all Muslims just like violent criminals don’t reflect all gun owners. If gun rights are a natural right – they should be for everyone.
Yes they ARE all the same. They’re all in the same murderous club and they’ll kill you just the same, whether you buy guns from this guy or declare him a bigot and never set foot in his store. When will you fools wake up and get it? There isn’t a single muslim who wouldn’t gladly slit your throat if given the opportunity. The ones who tell you they won’t ARE LYING as instructed by the Koran. They are here to further Islam, not for freedom, and they want nothing more than to see us all dead. For fuck’s sake, open your eyes and knock it off with the PC horseshit.
Unsubstantiated assertion. Please supply supporting evidence, not subjective opinions.
You read that “lie to the unbelievers” part? Or did you just read the line and ignore the context? The point of that part was that early on muslims were persecuted, so it was “mandated” to lie to unbelievers if it led you to safety. If a guy wants to kill you for your religion it is natural to lie about your religion, isn’t it?
Do you use storebrand or do you go for something premium like Reynolds Wrap for your hat?
As I see it, there is no separate “church” for the so-called moderates – any more than there is a separate Catholic church available for Catholics who don’t believe in christ. The point is that the “moderates” are all actually apostate (not following the clearly written program), and considered so by their more devout brethren. These devout folks are also now claiming to be a
“state” (probably their ultimate downfall) and claiming they MUST rule the entire world no matter how many people die. Their devotion seems to be worship of death, pretty much exclusively, not “the one true god.” Moloch and Baal were considered “gods” too, of course.
The difference between them and all other religions (and other people), seems to me, is the fact that nobody else (that I know of) is hunting down and murdering apostate Catholics, Jews or Mormons… at least not often enough to notice. And they don’t set off bombs in shopping malls and so forth either.
Islam is a whole other kettle of fish, even if a large majority only give it lip service. Personally, I can’t for the life of me see what attracts anyone to it… Worshiping hate, death and destruction, even in a passive way… doesn’t seem like a survival trait to me.
Does Florida include “religion” on their Driver’s License? Or is this just a blanket “No Browns” policy? This strikes me more as a stunt to get on Fox News than anything.
While drifts and forces within the Ummah shimmer between the likes of ISIS and participants in progressive discussion forums like “New Age Islam”, and constituencies and governments wrestle with how to denote and distill the “Islamists” — the latent terrorist and the underhanded politicos supporting the same — from souls more able and more inclined to argue, express, evolve, humanize, and socialize through talk and other aspects of peaceful political process. Note too that Muslims like M. Zuhdi Jasser, Qanta Ahmed, Irshad Manji and others plainly condemn “political Islam” and would seem to be just getting started leading formal and informal movements far against the organizations and tenets supporting or promoting Islamic supremacism and terror. Given the efforts of many to bring about change American (western) style, arbitrary banning may be counterproductive but understandable with even the span from Little Rock to Chattanooga considered.
It may help to note that most if not all attacks associated with cries of “Allahu Akbar” have been preceded by talk and actions contributing to concern, but the litmus or science for prediction has been week. In other aspects of law and law enforcement, the U.S. hasn’t worked over laws pertaining to sedition or detention (without charge) for some time, and as we are all saddled with the principle of equality, what we install in law must work with all without exception. Israel, which is 20 percent Muslim, has long had and applied detention as part of its security toolset, and it has recently applied the same to Jews suspected of abetting terror attacks against Arabs. As much serves to secure the state’s responsible monopoly on force.
Until we can get greater separation between those who are with us and those who are against us — and do so with variables stronger than mere ethnic legacy or surface association with some given large race, creed, color, or religion — we’re bound to see more individual initiative in prudent but Big Crayon actions.
You betcha dupa! Probably 2X.
Tired of the gutless PC wimp comments here. They started this, not basic Americans.
Sorry but you need to read your history. I mean read it with a real desire to know who has done what to whom when.
I’m not excusing the atrocities of Muslim extremists. Just get a grip and see where our oil barons have been snuggling up to Saddam Hussein, the Saudis, West African dictators etc. The poor get nothing from the deals. Then the unemployed youth who are easily seduced by Boko Haram, Al Queda and Isis.
Go back 60-70 years and see how the Europeans when ending centuries of colonization of the Middle East and Africa drew artificial lines for their own taking of natural resources. These lines ignored family tribal and cultural groups. When those dictatorships fell to revolution the children of the dictators educated in European schools continued their economic relations with Europe essentially continuing the benefits of colonization.
The youth are ripe for the picking. Easily recruited. Easily told that the West is evil. They see none of our freedoms. In fact we still fight for them here. Don’t we?
Emotional rhetoric such as his “basic American” comment shows much ignorance for reasons you illustrated.
It’s amazing to me how many people on here bitch about special privileges for police with carrying; however, they have their own elaborate laundry list of who shouldn’t have something.
Many on here don’t actually believe in arms ownership, they just want the privilege for their select classes.
I’m sure you’re sooooo brave.
I’m guessing this guy is going to be looking at a lawsuit, if a bakery has to make a wedding cake for a gay couple…….
No, I wouldn’t.
Quite aside from the Muslim ban, I probably won’t be buying from Florida Gun Supply anyway. The prices on his website are pretty terrible. $450 for a S&W Shield 9mm? $529 for a Ruger SR9c? $685 for an Ithaca Model 37 20 gauge?
And I thought Gander Mountain had ridiculous prices. Banning Muslims must really raise your overhead!
I would like to bring up that aside from not buying from this establishment over their dislike, distaste, bigotry, whatever you want to call it, toward Islam, these kinds of stunts also set off another red flag in my mind, as I have found the businesses that do this kind of stuff are generally just crappy to do business with. I wouldn’t be surprised if this were a last ditch attempt to garner up publicity for this establishment before they hit the bankruptcy zone and had to close.
I wouldn’t be surprised by that, either. Bonus: when they declare bankruptcy, he can blame it on those Muslim-loving liberal queers (or whatever imaginary bogeyman floats his boat that week) stomping on his right to free speech, dammit!
I support their right to refuse service to anyone for any reason.
That being said, I also support my right to refuse patronage to anyone for any reason.
Despite being an atheist, I would not patronize a business which discriminated against any religion.
I would not think less of a person who choose to support this business. I am comfortable with people doing things I disagree with.
It’s not if I think that Muslims should be armed. I try not to be associated with nut jobs. If e doesn’t want to sell guns to Muslims all he has to do is say the Muslim acted suspicious. Just acting “suspicious” is the FFL holders right to deny a sale. No one can say a FFL holder is racist or anything all anyone can do is give the FFL holder an “ataboy.” I not would go to that shop or range. If someone is that cocky to announce they will deny all Muslims they will treat anyone they don’t like poorly. I would just stay clear of the place. I do not pay people to give me a hard time. He can make a living selling guns to his buddies.
Since America banned the right of association and the right to hold unpopular beliefs in 1964, we are forced to shun this man and/or throw him in prison.
I can understand where Andy is coming from, but to include every person that chooses Islam as their religion is just wrong.
Now, I most certainly do have a problem with the individuals in Islam not speaking publicly and disputing what their leaders in the US keep wanting! If you CANNOT voice your opinion against those ANTI-AMERICAN leaders, then I am FORCED to include YOU in my own list of those wanting to fell the Stars and Stripes and what it stands for!
I’ve met and talked to many individual Islamic men. Most are here for an education and then go back home. They are the elite however and follow instead of lead. Where are the outcries against Farrakhan!
There’s plenty of people speaking out, but that gets drowned out because it doesn’t fit the narrative they are selling you.
There’s tons that speak out about everything. You’re just not listening, or you’re only intaking your information from filtered sources. Also, the term “Muslim” covers approx. 2 BILLION people. No way in any sense do 2 billion people all have the same mind.
Instead of banning muslims, it might be more effective to fly Israeli and Christian flags above your shop, and keep a live pig inside as the store mascot. It’ll probably be more effective, without all the drama. Unless the drama was the point the whole time…
Better publicity, for sure.
By the way, what is a Christian flag?
It is a flag that resembles the American flag-I’ve only seen it in protestant churches flying next to the American flag(it’s red,white & blue)…SEE: wikipedia which has a good explanation English guy…
My grandson had to say the pledge to that flag at his school. All I could think was a lot of people have died when religions get nationalistic.
Rule by flags… then by paper, eventually to be ruled by words;
“in my end is my beginning” – Mary, Queen of Scots
“in the beginning was the word” – John 1:1
You mean this?
It is specifically the flag of the Episcopal Church in the USA. It’s not a generic Christian flag. This is a proposed Christian flag:
But even it is used pretty much only by Protestants.
The closest you could come to a single unified symbol that is actually accepted by pretty much all churches and denominations is some variation of Constantine’s labarum – the banner which, according to the legend, he used as his battle standard after he got a vision, won resoundingly, and converted to Christianity because of that:
(most of the modern designs put Chi-Rho on the flag itself, while preserving the gold & red colors)
I’m having trouble posting replies, but it’s a solid field of white with a blue square in the upper left corner with a red cross in the blue box.
I got you fixed. One of your comments flagged the filter, and it kicked out the subsequent one(s) as well.
Thanks Matt, I’ve been trying to figure out what was going on.
By the way, what is a Christian flag? It is a predominantly American Protestant Christian flag with roughly the same representation of that of the Anglican Communion Flag. The Christian Flag is also seen in Latin America and Africa.
That’s a lot of valid questions. It would appear that Mr. Hallinan’s “ban,” is technically illegal, its a violation of equal protection laws, because of religion. I would still do business with him though and don’t think you’re going to lose a lot of readers because you’re associated with him. And I would not be cowed by CAIR either. They have ties to radical terrorists and their leadership has had an, um, interesting history.
its a violation of equal protection laws
“Equal protection” applies to governments, which may not deny equal protection to people. Refusing service to an ethnic group may violate state anti-discrimination laws, and if the business is large enough or is otherwise involved in Interstate Commerce, discrimination may also violate Federal laws.
I’m not a fan of confederate battle flags either. Which hasn’t been mentioned by anyone commenting today…not a fan of the aloha snackbars either. Does this guy understand the link between muslim slave traders and his proud “heritage”? Probably not…and how does rebel boy tell who is a muslim? Burka? Chador? Id card? Skin color? Flowing robes? Yeah he probably can’t tell you about the turbaned sikh or a Caldean Christian named Sargon either…
Picture of pedoprophet on floor at each range table….. durkha durka problem solved
“Should TTAG turn its back on Andy’s generosity?”
This is a question that only you guys at TTAG can answer. Sure the community here can tell you what they believe, but no one can tell you what you think is right deep down inside.
I for one don’t think anyone should infringe on anyone’s 2A. If anything I believe what this guy is doing is a step backwards for the Pro 2A movement. What’s next? Not selling to African American’s because they might be in a gang? But it is his store and I believe he has the right to choose who he wishes to sell to. But I also have the right to choose not patronize his store.
P.S. It’s fitting that this guy has the Stars and Bars in the background.
As a supplier of firearms to the public Hallinan has an obligation and a right to stop selling to anyone he deems may pose a threat. He should be praised for this, not labeled a bigot. I’ll leave the last word to Robert Spencer of Jihad Watch:
“This is wholly reasonable, and Hallinan’s position deserves serious consideration. Background checks on firearms purchases could also look for links between Muslims and radicalized mosques with known ties to Islamic terrorism, whether through jihad terrorists associated with the mosques, or through jihad financing trials in which they are implicated. There certainly are plenty of such links to investigate.
Hallinan gives himself ample maneuvering room by noting that “the ATF expressly gives me the right and authority to deny service to anybody that I feel is a threat for any reason.”
“As a supplier of firearms to the public Hallinan has an obligation and a right to stop selling to anyone he deems may pose a threat. He should be praised for this, not labeled a bigot.”
Suppose 75% of the crime in your city is perpetrated by Blacks. You go right ahead and put a “no blacks” sign in your gun shop and see what side of the law you are on. You can argue you are statistically correct all day long, it won’t matter. Because the sins of the few do not abrogate the rights of the many.
It’s no different than the Lefties pointing to the small majority of legal gun owners who commit crimes and insisting new laws are required because “they’re all law abiding until the day they are not”.
That crap should not be supported no matter who the target is.
Blacks! Did I mention black Americans? You’re setting up a straw man argument. And stop assuming Islam is a race. It is not. Are you suggesting that muslims with ties to radical or Islamist organizations that preach violence should own guns? I hope not.
Here’s what you said:
“As a supplier of firearms to the public Hallinan has an obligation and a right to stop selling to anyone he deems may pose a threat”
So it’s OK to deny a sale if the purchaser merely belongs to a group the seller associates with violence. I simply changed the scenario to one where 75% of local crime is committed by blacks. Are you going to put a “no blacks” sign in your store window?
Well, that’s up to you. But I’d argue you have no *obligation* to do so, in fact you may find yourself with exactly the opposite mandate- a cease and desist from the DOJ.
“Are you suggesting that muslims with ties to radical or Islamist organizations that preach violence should own guns? I hope not.”
Ah. Now you’ve narrowed it down from the original “no Muslims” to just those with radical ties. If those ties can be proven, I agree with no sale.
Islam is loony tunes. Christianity is loony tunes. Hinduism is loony tunes. The Jainists are loony tunes. *shrug* I wouldn’t buy from the guy because his bigoted, tribalistic mentality is exactly what I expect from ANY religion. I’ll go to a store where I can have a transaction that doesn’t involve anyone’s made up, best-guess deities.
Good idea! Put up a ‘No Atheists’ sign. It would not cost you any business!
If I lived in the area, yes I would do business with him.
Do keep in mind that not all Muslims sects are believers in the violence and hate for others that is urged by the Koran and Hadith. The Souffis are truly hated by both the Suni and Shia because they don’t ascribe to the literal word of those Muslim holy texts.
Yeah I actually know some Sufis that get painted with that brush too. They simply *do not* believe in the Koran as literal, and because of this have been targeted in the past by militants. So there are some sects that really don’t believe in that stuff, but as far as I know they’re given a pretty hard time from a good quantity of muslims too.
For a good example of how far the non-literalist Sufi approach can get from stereotypical “kill all infidels!” Muslim stereotype, have a look at this:
I wouldn’t give him any business, same as I wouldn’t give business to someone who put up a sign saying “no Jews”. And no, this blog shouldn’t associate with outspoken bigots.
Islam is not a religion. It is a theocrazy political system of domination that is anti-freedom, anti-human, and requires submission or death.
Until you get that clear in your head, all this nattering is a foolish waste of time, and divisive.
Exactly what the Left and gun-grabbers wants us to do, a circular firing squad, to distract from the real threat.
We are in the Long War, that began in the 7th century. http://www.longwarjournal.org/
Read some history, here: http://gatesofvienna.net/
Or philosophy, here: http://www.amazon.com/Allah-Is-Dead-Islam-Religion/dp/0578073900
Or read what Muslims have written who left the “religion of peace”
Or any number of those who have devoted attention to Islam,
who also understand the Left is in bed with Islamists.
Actually, my dear friend, one is inclined to perceive the long war, as you date it, as a continuation of the so called Roman/Persian wars which covered the preceding 800 or so years.
“It’s just business.” – The Godfather
Mostly I don’t get too concerned about other peoples’ personal politics, social stances, choices in pets (unless a guy has a really foo-foo dog), or anything else as long as they are fair and honest in their dealings.
So sure, I’d go there.
Its your BBQ, RF on who you do business with. I would just posit that 2A rights guarantee the 1A rights, and as unappealing as you might find the free speech of someone, they do have that right here in America.
Not the Left’s unholy alliance with Islamists goes back to WW2,
and history is repeating itself, today- http://www.the-american-interest.com/2015/08/15/120029/
Islam is the religion of peace. I see it implemented around the world everyday. Islam was always peaceful, ask Charles Martel and John Sobieski.
Well… That got out of hand quickly…
Speaking of guns- here is some music:
“Speaking of guns- here is some music:”
The lyrics to the song:
“Honey, don’t be yellin’ at me while I’m cleanin’ my gun…”
*Sniff*… so beautiful…
stupendous ignorance on display here.
anybody who thinks Islam is a race is just incapable of being educated
Islam is at war with not Islam, in any and every form.
Islam believes that Judgement day will come when the last person who is not a Christian or a Jew converts to Islam, and they want that.
Islam means “The peace that comes from submitting to the will of Allah”. No submission, no peace. Those few well behaved Moslems are in fact not Islamic, because they are not 100% committed. they are permitted to behave that way at this time for strategic reasons.
Islam is at war with not Islam, in any and every form. Not Islam needs to figure that out and get to war with Islam.
“Islam is at war with not Islam, in any and every form. Not Islam needs to figure that out and get to war with Islam.”
Someone who GETS IT.
Yes. Short and sweet isn’t it? I would do the same if the range or shop said no gays allowed. Why because it seams like anybody who is lilly white can be told that certain things don’t apply to them but as soon as someone is homo, transfreaked, or brown they can do no wrong. Open your eyes and see the nation.
I would patronize because of it
not giving him my money, I’m sure he would ban me for being an Atheist and having no “moral compass” or some junk. he’s better off banning women, young people, democrats, and minorities as they are more a threat to his status quo than muslims.
Why not have a sign refusing LEOs, too? I mean you’re 8 times more likely to be shot by a cop than a terrorist, let alone a radical Muslim terrorist. There seems just as much news lately of cops shooting innocent folks as terrorists.
Also, would he turn down Bobby Jindal should he walk in his store? Dude looks pretty Muslim; I mean, what exactly is considered Muslims, nowadays? The funny thing is, he would let all the Asians in, not even realizing that they make up more of the Muslim communities than those Middle Easterners you see on the news.
I’m not a moslem, I’d go on in.
I regularly see signs saying they don’t want my business, no problem, there are plenty of places that want my money. Let each business decide who they want to do business with.
Yep. The religion itself insists on intolerance. <–Period.
I'd also visit any business that bans the KKK, Neo-Nazis, Mommies Demanding Action or any other groups preaching and practicing intolerance or advocation less freedom.
Wow. Glad I have not sent Florida Gun supply any of my money, and I would encourage TTAG to end the relationship. Whatever crazy things someone believes, they have a right to effective, lawful, self-defense, just like everyone else. The moment you make access to any fundamental right conditional on believing the ‘correct’ things (as opposed to behaving peacefully), you are no longer on the side of freedom.
I believe in the freedom of association just as much as the 2nd Amendment.
For all those people who wouldn’t do business with this guy because they believe that they are morally superior to him might want to look at the definition of bigoted then look at themselves in a mirror.
Reciprocity is one of those “laws” that ranks up there close to gravity. It even trumps constitutions. Whatever ills befall the ideological decedents of Muhammad they do not match the ill’s brought about by Muhammad’s “Sunnah. Muhammad’s sunnah/life/habit is a principle found throughout Islam and is supposedly given by God Himself Surah 33:21.
Muhammad was a slave trader, a seventh century war lord, and in general a bad guy. Yet his example is supposed to be for all mankind to follow.
This is why the closer one gets to his example the closer you get to . . . cue most of the bad things Muslims have done in the name of Islam in recent history. Slavery, lower standing of women, killing apostates – all touched on by the life of Muhammad and codified in classical Islamic jurisprudence.
See how non-Muslims are treated in Muslim majority countries and its why I have a hard time shedding a tear w/ the fact that this guy in Florida won’t sell weapons or ammo to Muslims.
I have no problem dealing with any business or organization that bans Muslims. If military-age Muslims tried to join my rifle club, I would lobby against granting them membership or access to our range. Nobody will convince me otherwise by calling me a bigot, or saying I don’t understand Islam.
Wow I just looked at their online store-insane prices and confederate flag-ditch ’em RF…
RF – It’s wrong and we all know it. I know many of us are mad at what horrible atrocities have been committed by some (or even many) Muslims, but we can’t judge all Muslims based on the actions those evil people and we can’t discriminate based on a person’s religious belief. It’s not right. It’s not who we are supposed to be. It’s not the American way. I’m not a huge fan of the Haji’s right now – I’ll be the first to admit it – but even I am against this. Because others do the same and discriminate against us for being whatever – Gun owners, Christians, Jews, Gays – does not mean that we need to commit the same wrong against them.
Why??? Because – – – At what point do we become that which we so despise?
Never let your enemy turn you into them.
See, religion is a choice – choices have consequences. One of the consequences of choosing to identify as a follower of Islam is that you won’t be able to shop in the guy’s store. Could be, one of the consequences of Billybob’s decision not to sell to followers of Islam is that his business goes under. You could, of course, keep your pie hole shut and shop wherever the hell you please… Kinda like concealed carry in gun-free zones – keep your yap shut, ya’ boob – The ONLY place I ever lived where I carried consistently and constantly was Cook County, IL, back in the 80s – think about that for a moment. Was it illegal? You betcha! Did I do it anyway? You betcha! Have always felt that “judged by 12 or carried by 6” was a valid life CHOICE – see what I did there? These days, well, you pays your money and you takes your chances – maybe I’ve got a firearm, maybe I don’t – is it worth your life to make me believe you’re a threat to my life, just to find out? 😉
It’s official: TTAG should change its name to:
“Gun Owning Atheists Who Are Chummy With Muslims”
Nah, “GOAWACWM” is never gonna work!
For the record, Lutheran raised with Muslim (Lebonese) friends. Who cares? No one. Except for their hummus recipe, that, I care about.
You forgot to ask Robert for his birth certificate.
I have no problem with any business choosing whom they will do business with and whom they will not. Moral outrage queens be damned….
He would be better served to post up a sign that says “Proceeds from sales to Muslims will be donated to “Friends of the Israel Defense Forces”
I wouldn’t… But then again my best friend is an active duty officer in the US military with 26 years in, 3 deployments to Iraq and Afghanistan, the last 2 with JSOC. He came to the US as a child, learned english, enlisted, earned a college degree, became an officer, earned a masters and is an unbelievable warrior for the US.
Oh and he happens to be Muslim.
I believe it’s this guys business to sell to who he wants, but it’s my business not to buy from him either. His message may resonate with some, but in reality it’s a publicity stunt to get free advertising. If we were smart we’d be best off ignoring this troll.
Where I take offense to it is that it hurts the second amendment cause. The people that want to see us fall will use guys like this to perpetuate the stereotype of gun owners as “bigoted hillbillies” or whatever other adjective you want to insert. To succeed against these people we need to welcome any law abiding citizens we can. These people will help us win the next generation of firearms owners, win elections and contribute to causes such as the ILA and grassroots efforts to maintain and reclaim our rights.
There are varying degrees of beliefs in the Muslim religion, just like most of them. Anything from say a Jim Jones like cult leader to a “Christmas Catholic.” It doesn’t matter what religion you want to talk about, they have all caused something monumentally bad at some point. I know of more than a few Muslims that have come here because they weren’t believers in the totalitarian version of their religion that their government forced on them. They deserve prosperity and peace as much as you and I. If anything they also tend to be concerned and aware of issues that lead to societies we don’t want to see because they have lived in them in the past.
Dishonest people come in all shapes, sizes and colors. That’s why we are advocating the maintenance of our rights. By keeping our rights it means that we are trying to keep as many people as possible honest.
I believe that a business owner has the right to refuse their service to anyone they choose, for any reason. The market will decide if their choices pan out in their favor. There is zero need to make laws that force people to do business with those they do not wish to do so with.
In my eyes its really no different than someone turning down a date…
So, to be honest, yes I would have no problems doing business with a company that refuses muslims, as I’m not muslim I really don’t care. To be more honest, there are several “groups” that I would not care if a business refused or wanted to refuse service to, as long as I’m not in that “group” its not going to bother me, and if I am in that group, so what…I’ll just go elsewhere.
No but i would support a business that bans illegal aliens.
What is more fundamental to our founding than the freedom of a man to run his personal and private business as he sees fit?
Govt has no constitutional authority to interfere and it is left to other individuals as to whether this or some other stance a business owner may hold, is cause to not patronize his business.
I would have no issue at all with patronizing his business, just as I refuse to patronize the private business’ of those who would prevent my being armed and just as I would avoid any busines who openly took a stance in support of our domestic enemies, in their many guises….free choice by individuals.
Simple stuff, really.
Nope, wouldn’t spend a single cent.
It would be pretty hilarious if this ignorant biggot wouldn’t sell gun/ammo to Massad Ayoob!
My favorite quote from Mas…
Upon being asked about all his recent travels for the gun industry and shooting tournaments… “We Arabs are a nomadic people.” Or something like that. Perfect dead pan, dry humor joke deliver.
If during World War One or World War Two a gun store had advertised “We don’t sell guns to Germans” it would have been none of the government’s damned business. Let’s make it that way again.
Let’s be glad they didn’t, since so many of the gun stores in Texas would have shut down.
As it happens, during WW1 at least, lots of businesses (in some categories, literally all of them) had signs that said “No Blacks” in certain states.
Do you think that was right and proper, and that government should have not intervened in any way? If the majority decides to exclude the minority from some economic activity strictly through private boycotts, that is fine, even if the result is an effective denial of a constitutionally protected right (if e.g. no gun store will sell a gun to a black person)?
Of course I would. This is America, we’re allowed to have unpopular opinions dammit. How did we get so sissified? Seriously, if the followers of a maniacal pedophile aren’t up for ridicule…
Robert, why don’t you do your next Bookface poll asking “Protect Americans” or “Protect Muslims”
When it finally comes down to it and Muslims in America have to pick a side, I wonder which side they will pick?
Hell no. I’m no scholar of Islam, but I don’t understand there to be anything in universal Islamic articles of faith that is fundamentally evil. We should only shun those with reprehensible ideas, and not all those who identify as “Muslim” reject American values. Besides, banning “Muslims” is taken as a ban on all Americans of Muslim heritage, even non-religious nominal Muslims. If you seek to be exclusionary, ban enemies of liberty and human rights and those who promote evil, no matter what the name of their religion is. That would include militant Islamists and terrorist sympathizers. Anyone who would accept the enslavement, rape, murder, or social dehumanization of myself, my family, my friends, my countrymen is not welcome in my home. I don’t care if they call themselves Muslim, Christian, atheist, or anything else. Evaluate people not based on labels, but on the ideas they hold. In the video in this article, the speaker states that all Muslims are jihadists who seek to do harm to Americans. This is simply not true. Even if most Muslims felt that way, as long as some Muslims did not it would be unjust to lump them all together when you can simply say that you will not serve or help those who harbor the hateful feelings that you disagree with.
To be sure, survey evidence suggest a majority of Muslims worldwide harbor some pretty serious anti-American, immoral attitudes. I would never feel completely safe living in a majority Muslim neighborhood. But they aren’t all like that, and I’m not going treat everyone born into a Muslim family who hasn’t publicly rejected their traditional faith like a proud member of the Nazi party. I believe in evaluating the individual, not in prejudice. I will not patronize a business with a sign along the lines of No Muslims, No Hindus, No Christians, No Jews, No Blacks, No Whites, No Japs, No Mexicans, No Indians, No Hispanics, No Chinese, etc. I wouldn’t want anyone to patronize an establishment where I was unwelcome due to my heritage or opinions I held that were not immoral, and I shall do unto others the way I would like to be treated.
Hell, no. This guy is a moron. 100 years ago his “kind” (Irish) wouldn’t have been welcome in most proper establishments…
First, I won’t buy from him because he’s so ignorant as to display a rebel flag behind him in videos (which is much more than a backdrop: displaying a flag behind you in a video symbolizes what you pledge your undying allegiance to).
Second, I won’t buy from him because he will not sell to Muslims. Not all Muslims are terrorists.
But given the fact that a rebel flag flies behind him, racism wasn’t a surprise.
No. This Afghanistan vet would not do business with a bigot.
No, I would not do business with this man. You can’t paint an entire group with the same brush. I know Muslims who are peaceful and patriotic. You can’t let the evil actions of a few dictate how you treat all of them. If that is how he wants to do business, I support his freedom to choose whom he associates with. I will exercise my same freedom and find another gun store.
Only if he also banned all Christians too they’re so pesky
Banning Muslims from your gun range/store is the same as the #blacklivesmatter crowd hating all white people/cops.
It’s his business, literally. While I support his right to conduct his business as he sees fit, I do not have to do business with him and I doubt that I would.
I most likely wouldn’t, as the Second Amendment emphasizes “shall not be infringed.” Also, they are afraid of these so-called “violent Muslims” as if they don’t own something that they could use to protect themselves from an assailant.
The first amendment is protected by the 2nd and muslims are protected by laws that prevent just this sort of discrimination. In order to get a business license you make a tacit agreement with the people via the state that you will provide your goods or services to all. You have the right as a business owner to be offended at them entering your business but not to refuse business to them without a legal, compelling and articulable reason. No shirt/shoes/service, that’s fine. But no muslims/jews/gays/s is not.
I would put forth that as interesting as the comments got, it is improper for RF to provide the guy with any more attention than he’s already getting by doing an article on it. It is fully improper and demonstrable of questionable judgement that RF would put this decision to the keyboard commando mafia. It gives a platform for the worst sort of 2nd amendment activists to dribble their veiled and not-so-veiled hateful bile forth and does nothing to frame the discussion in a useful or productive manner. For the 2A activists who lack the venomous hate in their hearts it is nothing but an article designed and intended to bring forth the bile spewing of the worst of us and to which they occasionally can’t help but respond.
You make your business decisions on your own. Don’t go foisting your responsibility to have or not have a conscience or principles upon your readership. It’s dishonest, lazy and unfair.
No freaking way I would EVER spend one cent of my money in such a bigoted place. My Dad was refused service in the South (“Whites only”), and this is just another example of Jim Crow. Normally I would never wish for a gun store to go out of business, but in this one case I will make an exception. Anybody who patronizes such a store is supporting Jim Crow.
He can run his business as he sees fit. If he has the best prices he would get my business no problem. To hell with muslims they are a plague on the earth. Time to quit acting otherwise.
They are a plague on earth? You sound like the Nazis before you, and the KKK before you.
Really, I think the real plague on this earth is hatred and bigotry. So maybe you’re the plague.
I got the email from FGS with their statement on this and immediately unsubscribed from their mailing list. I stand by their right to associate and do business with whomever and however they want, but I won’t support such an obviously flawed and bigoted point of view.
What American don’t understand is everything they view in the world is through the culture of Democracy.
Example: suppose you go to bed tonight and tomorrow wake up and have an overwhelming desire to kill everyone in your adjoining state. Your mind processed that statement and instantly dismissed it.
Personal experience interacting with Muslims, I can relay that statement is perfectly acceptable within the Koran. Islam is not about choice but obedience to God on a level few Americans understand. There is no separation between Mosk and state, it’s interwoven and no tolerance of dissent. In effect you have no choice and your tribe (Sunni or Shia) is force upon you by birth.
So when a business declares no Muslim’s it’s an attempt to prevent a culture from enforcing a value. Poor attempt but nonetheless. The greatest challenge to our culture is a religion sworn to overtake and impose its culture and laws on all others. The West separated church & state and is the most successful region in the world. If Islam does not evolve, our way of life as we know it will end in 100 years.
That’s an example of classic ignorance. Islam and the state have always been at an interesting but clear separation. The classical islamic caliph was first a royal. He was not a pope or a priest and didn’t have to deal with those classes at all. The only responsibility of an islamic political leader is to facilitate prayer, aka, defend the mosque as a structure, not an institution. Christianity on the other hand was separated from the state by centuries of wars and political upheaval. Europe strugged for hundreds of years with finalizing the separation which finally happened with the Peace of Westphalia which established what was gods and what was the kings. Further islam is massively egalitarian with almost no levels of hierarchy and no established clergy (in Sunni Whabai islam). Any muslim is as free to declare jihad and fatwahs as any other muslim and any muslim is as qualified to declare any other muslim an improper muslim, even the leader of the state. Islam goes so far as to command, through the hadith, that no muslim is burdened to follow the commands of any ruler who’s order violates the faith and follows that up with commanding the muslim to resist. Islam isn’t about theocracy. Quite the opposite. Islam simply doesn’t care 1 bit about the state and exists as a foundation of moral law that comes before the state. The “problem” with islam and modern politics isn’t that church and state never separated. It’s that they never actually came together or rationalized the responsibilities and bases of temporal authority against religious authority.
Muslims aren’t forcing jack on anyone by patronizing a business. Americans banning muslims from their businesses are forcing muslims to decide between their soul and their desire to do business at this specific place. It’s funny to watch someone get something so completely bassackwards.
This has nothing to do with embracing their culture. All they’re doing is selling guns and ammo. If when I took someone’s order I accepted their culture, like a wet wrag to dirt, like you seem to suggest, I am completely culturally confused because I’ve absorbed a little bit of everything.
I’ve lived in foreign countries and enjoyed their culture without assimilating it. And a business transaction isn’t some magical anime-like event where I’m transformed by an imaginary invisible power. It’s just money for guns and ammo. I don’t become part of McDonalds culture by eating their food and I don’t become Japanese because some man from Japan bought a book from me.
Your statement is both illogical, and as it enabled and applauds racism, your statement is also offensive.
I think it’s fine for TTAG to take loaners from them to do reviews, but no, I would not support such a business with my dollar vote.
I would find the idea abhorrent if he ran a grocery store, gas station, etc. With a gun store I find it understandable, even support it. Anyone expressing loudly that he was a Muslim by dress, beard, loud proclamations (alla snacbars, etc.), should be shown the door.
Yeah I would. Muslims have proven to be untrustworthy, and most terrorists are muslims. They can’t be trusted.
If his prices were low, service was great and the location was close. Otherwise, I could care less.
While right or wrong he’s making a statement that the Government doesn’t want to accept. The statement that Jihadism is evil and it needs to be stopped. And “Tolerance isn’t in the Quran,” ignoring Jihadism and Islam doesn’t fix the problem. Nor does it stop US Muslims running off to join Daesh and sometimes the government stops them. Other times they get weapons legally or illegally and cause mass muders in the name of Daesh or “Allah.”
The fact is whether we recognize it as a problem or not, unless something is actively done, things will only get worse. All I have to say is “Remember 9/11.”
How many defense companies sell to Muslims, H&K, Boeing, BAE, FN. Smith &Wesson all sell to Muslim countries?
I wonder what the firearms distributors that supply him think?
I will never knowingly shop at any store that bans Muslims, or anyone, on racial or religious reasons (i.e. without a good reason).
TTAG should turn its back on them. They stand for racism, and if you stand with them, you also stand for racism.
Substitute “Muslims” for virtually anything else, and see what your gut reaction is. Try “Jews”, or “Blacks”, or “Christians”, or “Republicans”.
I wouldn’t do business with someone who explicitly introduces such segregation into his business practice (not just against Muslims, but against any random group of people). This is not about the beliefs that he expresses as a person; it’s about the business practices. He can say as much shit as he wants and I wouldn’t care, but the moment his business actually starts discriminating, patronizing it becomes a support for that discrimination.
“We’ll take the blacks and the Chinese, BUT WE DON’T WANT THE IRISH.”
I still have a problem with anyone that would be opposed to this gun-stores position. I support them. Not looking for traffic. I think that many need to re-think what is going on in the middle-east, with isis, and look at the absolute no objections from moderate Islam. This declared caliphate is a problem. A Big Problem. I would stand by this guy. Where are moderate Islams coming in and supporting him. There are none. I would laugh at CAIR coming in to dialogue with TTAG. That, would be an instant end to my association, for sure. As in, an immediate association with the opposition. Ridiculous. Absolutely.
>> . I think that many need to re-think what is going on in the middle-east, with isis, and look at the absolute no objections from moderate Islam.
I don’t know where you get your news on ISIS, but in case you haven’t noticed, the majority of people that they have killed so far are actually moderate Muslims (for the simple reason that they’re the majority of the population there in general) – do you really think that those guys take “absolutely no objections” before they get their head sawed off?. The Jordanian and Turkish air force pilots who are bombing them are also moderate Muslims.
I see that. But you don’t look deep enough. Blind you are indeed. I get it. You are wrong. Have you seen how many Christians they have destroyed? How many they have killed? Venture you have not.
“Moderates”, by definition, do not get in the middle of BS crap like this.
Just like moderate majorities don’t stand up to gun control, just like moderate majorities don’t go calling rabidly for more gun bans, just like moderate majorities don’t build hot rod cars, support “gas guzzler” tax, assassinate presidents, run for president, etc etc etc.
You’re incredibly ignorant, the majority of the people fighting IS are Muslims, not Christians or Jews.
…and your apathy disgusts me. My Humble Opinion, of course. You need to take this shops business. Absolutely. But you will not.
I won’t darken the door of any establishment that infringes on the rights of my fellow citizens exercising their constitutionally guaranteed basic rights on the grounds of skin color, faith (or lack their of), gender, etc.
On the same note, I will not and cannot condemn Christians as a whole for the actions of the Lords Resistance Army.
TTAG should turn its back on him. Gun owners should be united not trying to create more divisions. They have every right to own guns as anyone else does. He is painting all Muslims as terrorists in the same manner that any and all christian priests are child rapists. Split away from him asap, don’t even know why this would be a topic
I agree that he has the right to do what he wants in terms of to whom he provides his services.. But what he’s chosen to do makes him a bigot, and I wouldn’t give him by business.
While I recognize and share some the concerns, I cannot morally support prejudice on religious (or most any other) grounds. We must remain true to our Constitution and laws.
The owners have every right to refuse service in this case but I could not in good conscience give them my business.
I will however defend their rights to run their business and provide services as they see fit.