From TTAG’s mailbag comes a question from student Tyler Reidhead. Tyler’s predicament is the same faced by students on most college campuses:
Recently my university sent out a mass email outlining their emergency procedures in case of natural disaster, fire, or “active shooter scenario”. The email and accompanying video was full of the “don’t worry, we’ll keep you safe” bs that one would expect from the officials at a gun-free campus. I was thoroughly disgusted and emailed my friendly neighborhood campus police chief with my concerns. Apparently he wants to meet with me to discuss “weapons on campus”.
My question is this: We all talk about how great it is to stand up for our rights, how important the 2A is, etc. But when an opportunity to discuss these issues with someone in authority to do something about them presents itself, what are some good resources for material to present my case?
So to answer young Tyler, we throw it open to the best resource we know – the cumulative knowledge base that is the Armed Intelligentsia.
So…. does he really want to meet with you to pick your brains on the campus weapons policy? Or does he want to keep tabs on someone he thinks is a dangerous gun nut? Maybe you should record the conversation.
And before you go, check out examples like the one below which show what happens to students who question the campus gun policy. Just don’t assume that these people really want to have a discussion with you.
http://thefire.org/article/8488.html
yea, what he said. If you have a droid i recommend voice recorder, just remember to edit the settings because the default is only 5 minutes of recording.
Quite simply ask your campus police chief if he will respond to an active shooter scene with or without his firearm.
Ask him to walk you through an on-campus, active shooter scenario where you are unarmed (i.e. gun free) and how you are going to save your life armed only with your mobile phone.
Then you walk him through the same scenario, but this time you are armed with your mobile phone and your CCW and how the outcome is much more likely in your favor.
Maybe he is planning providing gun free zone pins that are made of ballistic armor that you can pin over your heart for protection.
I think there would be nothing to be gained by this conversation. The change to allow you to carry will have to come from your state legislature or the college board of directors not the campus cop. His interest is in figuring out better how to monitor you, not in having a second amendment debate.
Yep.
+1 Except that I think you are already in a lose-lose situation. If you don’t meet with the guy then you will likely be subject to more scrutiny.
I agree, he’s just doing his job. Tell him about your interest in changing the law and let him tell you whatever he wants to then be done with it.
later you can work to change the laws, but in the meantime go get yourself some pepper spray.
ask him for his home phone number and address so that your mother can call and/or show up at his home with a large 8×10 framed photo of you to place on his dresser when the SHTF and he wants to explain “campus policy.” If he is really serious, ask him to show you any cases of where criminals avoided gun free zones and robbed or murdered elsewhere instead. Also ask him why he carries a gun and body armor. Ask him to disarm his entire force just like they do in Great Britain and let’s see what happens.
Since it’s a gun-free campus, how could there be an “Active Shooter?”
Are they trying to say that an “Active Shooter” would be someone on the campus police force?
lulz
I agree with previous comments in that I believe he is more interested in covering his butt by ‘keeping tabs’ on students interested in guns. His office has NO ability to change the campus rules other than by making a recommendation to the administration one way or the other. The best you can hope for is to shift his paradigm to your perception of liberty. To that end I offer the following:”To ban guns because criminals use them is to tell the innocent and law-abiding citizens that their rights and liberties depend not on their own conduct, but on the conduct of the guilty and the lawless, and that the law will permit them to have only such rights and liberties as the lawless will allow… For society does not control crime, ever, by forcing the law-abiding to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of criminals. Society controls crime by forcing the criminals to accommodate themselves to the expected behavior of the law-abiding.” -Jeff Snyder, author American Handgunner, Second Amendment Foundation OfficerThe anti-liberty argument boils down to the premise, that if peaceable armed citizens cross certain property lines, their behavior drastically changes. They degenerate into hot-tempered, remorseless, out-of-control, binge-drinking frat boys, drunken cowboys, and avenging vigilantes ready to blast anything for any reason–or for no reason at all. Of course, if we’re really such immoral and irrational slavering-in-our-blood-lust powder kegs, we have no business being armed anywhere. If we can’t be trusted with a gun, what are we doing being trusted out in society without a custodian? And only the custodian can be trusted. Except of course when the custodian blatantly ignores laws that apply to them, until there are personal penalties applied.People who will do you harm DO NOT CARE how many laws they violate. Laws only restrain those who are willing to abide by them. That puts the ‘Law-Abiding’ at the disadvantage. Criminals, by definition, are law-breakers. How can anyone in their right mind honestly think that a law banning guns would deter criminals from having them? They have no regard for the law in the first place, so another law would mean very little to them. What it would instead do, is turn law-abiding citizens into much easier targets for criminals. Murderers, burglars and rapists would know they have the upper hand on their victims because they have guns and their victims do not. Therefore, they would be much more likely to commit such crimes.
Gentlemen. You are not answering the question posed. The question is what resources or information should this college student take with him to the meeting with the Campus Police Chief? Smart Alec responses don’t help. Assumptions about what this police chief is going to do also don’t provide assistance. You might as well have stated he should show up to this meeting with an attorney in tow. Information about the Virginia tech shooting a few years back, the Columbine shooting, and any other incident of mass murder or spree killing by someone armed who went into a gun free zone and opened fire would allow the student to get his point across to the Police Chief. It may also be better to have a “group” meeting with the PC and not just by himself or herself containing similarly minded college students who have the same concern about the college campus being a gun free zone. It would be the subject of another article entirely to analyze what, if anything, will the PC do about it.
No campus police chief is sitting around at night worry about gun nuts who ask articulate and well meaning questions about active shooter scenarios. It’s a complicated issue and in a world of continuous liability (and politics) he probably wants to simply address your concerns in person. Depending on the laws in your state it may be illegal for you to record the conversation, so keep that in mind.
Since you asked for actual resources, here you go. http://concealedcampus.org/
It may only be illegal to record the conversation if done surreptitiously. Take the video camera out, set it on the desk, press record, ask permission.
You haven’t kept up with the news. Over at thefire.org they have documented cases of students being expelled or threatened with reprimands or mandatory psychological evaluations just for asking questions or objecting to a gun free policy at the school.
University police chief’s have little or nothing to do with university politics, expulsions, etc., etc., etc. They are responsible for law enforcement.
Right, and you really think they can’t or wouldn’t forward your name on to those who *do* handle with expulsions and disciplinary measures?
Yep, because the campus LEO’s I know are always at odds with campus administration. The former tends to be conservative and the latter tends to be very liberal.
The Virginia Citizen’s Defense League (vcdl.org) is currently staging a series of demonstrations across VA state college campuses to get the word out about campus carry. They will be at James Madison University in Harrisonburg next week.
I’m sure VCDL would be glad to provide info and materials to Tyler whether he resides in VA or not.
I’m with Skyler (8:31). You have nothing to gain from a discussion with the campus authorities. Unfortunately, you’ve already put yourself on their radar screen, so meet with the campus cop, listen politely, and go away. And then investigate at the state level on how to make changes in the law.
I’d be interested in knowing how this works out. I hope this is not a problem for Mr. Reidhead.
Let’s move “Active Shooter” to the same BS bin as “Accidental Discharge”. It’s “Active Killer” or maybe “Active Murderer”.
As stated above, their intention in meeting with you is most likely to “observe you” so that you can be monitored. It will be paramount to conduct in a professional manor. When you meet him, take into consideration your style of dress and your body language, you must look like a young man who is put together and confident. When it comes time for discussion state your case about concealed carry, do so briefly but effeciently. if I recall there was an article on here detailing a bunch of shootings in gun free zones and compared their results based on the proximity of the nearest firearm. Once you have briefly spoken, let him speak, smile, nod and agree. They aren’t going to change policy because you made some great point that day, but you can leave a good impression for all future CCW holders.
It’s an obvious setup. Go to the meeting, but bring a lawyer or you’ll be leaving the meeting in handcuffs.
+1 Do not go to this meeting without a lawyer. And record everything if you can.
challenge him to fire a few rounds at the range. $20 says you outshoot him and provide a good example of what CCW’ers bring to the fight.
First, read the article, “Raging Against Self Defense” by By Sarah Thompson, M.D. here: http://www.vcdl.org/new/raging.htm Focus on the section ‘Communicating with anti-gun people’ and try the Mirror Technique.
Next, dress up. Look very presentable. Clean cut. Before the meeting, contact the local campus newspaper and tell them that you are interested in writing for them and ask if you could write a short article for them about the upcoming meeting with campus police chief. THEN, bring a video recorder to the meeting and ask if you could record for your article. (You would hate to mis-quote the chief.)
Yes. It’s a set-up. A trap. But knowing it is a trap and bringing first-amendment press-protection can only help. A lawyer with you might be too much of a tip-off that you are expecting a hostile meeting. Your official prater should be that same one the police use, “I’m recording for ‘your’ protection.” Repeat it every time you are asked why you are using a video camera.
Use what talking-points you feel comfortable with. But keep it brief and on point. Realize that you are dealing with very deep seated irrational fears. Confrontation will not get headway.
Good luck, and keep us posted.
This is a lose/lose situation. Tyler already screwed up by bringing the issue up to the chief. If he can find a way to duck out of this conversation (preferably saying something like “my mistake, I’ve done some more reading on the subject and I agree that it would be dangerous to allow guns on campus”). I’m sure Tyler wasn’t planning to break any laws/rules anyway, but he should be aware that he is already on the department’s radar and stands a high likelihood of being searched at the slightest provocation now. Presumably Tyler is going to college to start his career, and he should think about what will happen to his future opportunities if he gets expelled over something gun-related.
Gunfacts.info is a great source.