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One of the biggest aspects of concealed carry that people worry about — especially new carriers — is printing through their clothing. Some people obsess over how much they print, fretting about the tiniest impression made by their EDC gun and carry holster. As most concealed carriers come to learn, a little printing is actually no big deal.

Most people find once they start carrying a concealed pistol that the vast majority of the general public really isn’t paying attention. That little point on your shirt where the butt of you pistol’s grip pokes through? No one will notice. And if they do, they won’t think “gun.”

But people who carry a gun themselves tend to be a little more aware. What if you notice someone who’s noticeably printing? Printing enough that you can not only see a little bump from the grip or the rear sight, but can practically identify the make and model he or she is carrying through their shirt?

It looks tacky. And it’s liable to panic some of the, well, let’s say the more excitable element of the non-carrying public. And in some jurisdictions, it may actually be treated as a crime, depending on circumstances.

The right shirt can make all the difference when avoiding printing while carrying a gun.

Some people figure that’s the other guy’s problem. After all, it isn’t exactly difficult to carry without printing since all your really need is a shirt that hangs a little loosely and a bit of adjustment to the position of the pistol and presto…no printing. Granted, the gun you carry plays a role; some people can manage to pull off carrying a SIG P226 daily and some can’t get away with much more than a Walther PPK.

If some rando doesn’t care if he prints like it’s going out of style, it’s his risk he’s running. Why bother mentioning it?

There’s certainly something to be said for that, but then again some people have a more helpful nature. All those reasons that exist for printing being a bad thing are also reasons to mention obvious printing to someone. If a person isn’t aware of the issue, letting them know can help prevent a potential problem. And obvious printing is one of the things that can give concealed carriers a bad name. It’s just being helpful.

Some people don’t know when they print badly. If people can read “GLOCK” through your shirt without you knowing it, you might appreciate someone letting you know. I know that I would.

But there are also reasons not to approach that person. Some people just don’t care and don’t appreciate anyone’s attempt to help them, no matter how well-intentioned the impulse. That can lead to some unkind words and a potential confrontation no one wants.

Granted, some people like pointing out when someone else gets something wrong just for their own gratification. Spend three minutes on any internet site and you’ll find hundreds of them. A person being told their gun is showing may have to question whether it is being proffered out of genuine concern or for the smug satisfaction of the person offering it.

Erring on the side of caution is always prudent, but what would you do in this situation? Have you ever told someone they were printing?


















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  1. I don’t care if I am printing. I am pretty sure most of the time I am not, but there’s no law against here. In addition, a lot of people open carry here, so I am just open carrying discreetly if I print.

    • Exactly. Couldn’t care less who knows I’m carrying. As long as I meet the legal requirement being ‘concealed’, that’s all I want.

      Oh wait. Forgot. I live in a free state now. I carry any damn way I want, when I want, where I want.

    • This. I simply do not care. But you’re still kidding yourself if you think the majority of the population around you even notices.

      • I noticed a young man printing at church this morning. I wouldn’t usually notice, but I also over heard him talking CCW pistols with one of the pastors before the service ( I know this pastor is also a gun guy and always carries).

        It looked like the young man had a G19 or something similar. There are a ton of guys that CCW at my church (Southern Baptist). I’m glad to be part of a church like that.

        As usual, I was pocket carrying my S&W 642.

        Almost no one notices or cares around here.

    • Same, here. Don’t give a rats ass if I or somebody else is printing or even partly uncovered. Tacky? – Only if you are a metro-sexual.
      I wonder if Sam carries a lint comb and wears man perfume too.

      • Please explain to my why your only mode of conversation is to trash people you don’t even know.

        The only thing I contributed here was an incident (before I had a gun, at all) that happened. An incident where someone tried to do me a favor.

        Are you a graduate of high school since 1990? It would explain your lack of reading and comprehension skills (and total lack of social graces).

        • Actually you were kinda right. My posts if not read with some knowledge of my commenting style often may seem harsh. However I am usually being a bit facetious and playing a grumpy character. It is true that I am prejudiced against modern dandies though. With Mr. Hoober it is mostly that he implied that the John Goodman character in the Big Lebowski dressed badly. That I cannot abide:-)

  2. So how does the law consider printing?
    Is it still concealed carry if you print or does that become open carry?

  3. And in some jurisdictions, it may actually be treated as a crime, depending on circumstances.

    Name some.

    • Since “printing” isn’t actually a legally definable thing, it’s not illegal. It is either concealed, or open carried, as long as you are making a good faith attempt to conceal, you will be OK legally. Now, that doesn’t mean that some police with a stick up the ass might not hassle you, but that’s really as far as it can go.

    • New Jersey. Concealed carry and open carry are all but illegal for anyone unless they are law enforcement. With a population of 8.8 million there are less than 2000 carry permits. That’s .00022% of the population.

    • In the progressive hole that is NY, printing can and does get charged as brandishing a weapon depending on county…

      • Has there ever been an actual prosecution? I looked up the law for NY, and it doesn’t define “printing” at all, and it defines brandishing as fundamentally willful menacing. Printing isn’t even slightly illegal.

        Statute 120.14:
        1. On a certain date you the defendant possessed a firearm.
        2. That you possessed the firearm knowingly.
        3.That the firearm was operable and loaded. Under New York law ‘loaded’ may mean the bullets are in a gun case or pocket. The charge can still be leveled against the defendant as the bullets were readily available.
        4. That you the defendant possessed the loaded firearm with intent to use it unlawfully against another.
        This is a Class C felony.

        • Oh.. they will explain that as ‘evil foul gun persons’, you are printing for the sole purpose of terrifying innocent good people who are by definition terrified of guns.

    • Floridah until relatively recently.
      Printing was showing almost the same as brandishing. Since we have no Open carry. Concealed meant concealed. If it shows accidently now its not considered brandishing anymore. Unless its being done willfully for whatever reason. Such as intimidation.
      Ive stopped trying to carry a full sized anything here. My every day dress is nothing more then IWB in a t shirt and jeans. Even though I don’t think anyone notices let alone would say anything to me. My belt carry mag case is on my belt horizontally next to my phone case on my left side. The belt loops of my tuckable plainly show.
      No one seams to care here.

    • Before the recent open carry law repealed it, the relevant criminal element in Texas was “failure to conceal.” “Conceal” was defined as being not visible and not openly discernible to the ordinary observation of a reasonable person. In practical terms, it would probably have to have been very apparent for an observer not only to notice it, but to determine conclusively what it was.

      I’ve never heard of anyone being charged under those pure circumstances. Where there have been cases are where some “intentionally failed to conceal” the sidearm., or of course where someone menaced someone by revealing it. Those get into larger, actual crimes, though, than what we would consider mere printing.

    • until very recently, Oklahoma.

      if anyone could tell you were carrying (obvious printing, wind blowing a shirttail up or a jacket open, anything) it could be treated the same as brandishing. in effect, we only had two legal (non-use) states: fully and legally concealed, and illegally brandishing.

      we finally made open carry legal, which almost nobody really does, but it took all the pressure off the gray area of partial conceal.

      luckily, most people caught in that grey area would be asked to leave or face trespass charges (our signage laws are vague but enforceable). most carriers would just leave and that would be the end of it.

      I know some people who have been stopped by police for printing or inadvertently displaying (including a dude that merely had an empty holster in the small of his back while riding a sport bike), but once they handed over a concealed license, the ‘problem’ was resolved.

      basically, Oklahoma wanted to prevent the illegal display of a holstered gun as an dispute escalation (a non-draw brandish, if you will), but really couldn’t legally define it in a way that didn’t conflict with the legal-display-as-de-escalation, or the inadvertent display….so it just went with open licensed carry and called it good.

  4. Depends on the state I think. Some people here have stated that their home state makes it a crime to print/become unconcealed while carrying. In that case I would mention it because I don’t want to see a fellow POTG get in trouble over some technicality.

    That’s not the case in any state I’ve lived in/held a permit in so I just ignore it. I figure that I’m concealed carrying, concealment WILL fail at some point and if someone notices it, well, legally speaking who cares? Now I’m OCing until I fix “the problem”. Still legal, no worries. As such I generally ignore it with other people as well unless they become unconcealed with a holster that has no retention since this greatly raises the risk someone could come up and disarm them quickly. Personally, the being disarmed quickly because of not having retention is my only concern with a concealment failure.

    Really, the number one concealment failure that I see is people becoming completely unconcealed while dealing with children in public. Children require a lot of bending over/picking up etc. That’s where most concealment falls down IME. In fact, even if they don’t become unconcealed by the action the way they move gives them away if you’re paying attention. Watching certain people deal with their kids it immediately becomes obvious that they’re appendix carrying because they simply can’t move in certain natural ways while dealing with their offspring.

    So I guess this all raises a question: In a state where “printing” is illegal can a cop roust you for moving in a way that makes it obvious you’re carrying even if they can’t “see” the gun?

    • Congratulations! you are the first person I’ve ever heard mention appendix carry and offspring that wasn’t talking about the dangers of appendix carry! 🙂

      I have seen many people printing around here, and i used to stress about it myself, but i never mentioned it to the carrier unless i knew them. AND i don’t worry about printing much any more.

    • makes it a crime to print/become unconcealed while carrying Is it OK to “unconceal” in order to shoot someone that needs shootin?

      • No idea. I’ve just seen the claim made. I have 0 experience with a place that actually has such a law and, quite honestly, I don’t know such a jurisdiction in fact exists.

      • under the old Oklahoma law, yes…but only if you follow thru.

        once you cleared leather, you essentially had to shoot the guy to limit your exposure to brandishing charges.

        it worked backward from the non-incident, basically: if you didn’t need to actually shoot the guy, you didn’t need to draw. if you didn’t need to draw, you didn’t need to expose/brandish. but you did, so you could be charged. this led to CCW instructors telling their students that any time they drew, they had to shoot the guy.

        of course…charges rarely happened in legal defensive situations, but they legally could. our lawmakers decided it was a better move to keep a potential shooter from having to wait to draw until the shot was well and truly deserved than to put a potential shooter into a no-win situation between the bad guy and the cops.

        oklahomans can now draw for any valid reason, and if that solves the problem, everyone lives and only the bad guy faces charges.

  5. No, I wouldn’t say anything. None of my business.

    I did laugh once when a man ahead of me in the grocery line bent over to pick up his keys… he exposed his “small of the back” holster and gun for all the world to see.

    • I’ve done that any number of times (not with small-of-back, but with OWB at 8 o’clock). Nothing to be embarrassed or ashamed about. When it’s 90 degrees out and you’re just wearing a t-shirt and jeans, that happens sometimes. Who cares?

      • Nobody cares here, even in 20 below zero weather. But if nobody cares anywhere else, then why all the hysteria over “concealed is concealed” and the imaginary element of “surprise?” And all that other CC dogma?

        Doesn’t matter in the least to me. When I CC, it is in a specially made fanny pack and it never “prints.” But I carry it that way sometimes for convenience, not because I fear someone will see it.

        In fact, I’m so well known for carrying a gun that, if I CC to town… inevitably someone will come up to me and say something like: I thought you always carried a gun… where is it? I just smile and say, “yes I do.”

        • the surprise element is not imaginary, its just not what people think it is. If you are individually targeted by criminal for say a mugging, unless you have the situational awareness or luck to notice him he will invariably have the element of surprise. Indeed to me the CC element of surprise is in where if you are individually targeted and caught unawares, you now have a choice of either complying with the robber and not having your gun stolen as well if you are too disadvantaged to attempt to run/fight. Choosing to go to guns if the situation evolves is also in your options.

          Also gives you the choice in where you are part of or witness to a larger crime. Two guys with a pistol and a knife come in to knock down the local 7/11 while you’re getting a pepsi? You have to choice to intervene or not. So while two guys lightly armed with a gun and a knife might be a fight you think you can handle, that might change when its four or five guys and two of them have long guns.

          Ultimately the “element of Surprise” argument is kind of disingenuous I agree, but what it does do is ultimately give you just a bit more flexibility, in most cases, when SHTF. If you’re open carrying you still have a choice, but it’s then fight if you can, run if you can, or give up your gun to a clearly violent individual. Sometimes discretion is the better choice over valor

  6. Had this happen sometime ago, before I even had a gun. Standing in line at a fast food, wearing cargo pants, when a guy approached and whispered, “Do you know you are printing”. At the time, I had no idea what the term meant, and I was juts totally stymied. I asked, “Printing?”. And the fellow said, “You know. Your gun is printing through your pocket.” The guy was seeing by wallet and keys. Thought the fellow was nice enough to think to warn someone, anyway.

  7. I’ve never had occasion to point it out but, like most things, I think it would be received not so much by what you say, but how you say it…

    • What the hell is cursive? Is that a way you can write four letter words so that your kids can’t read it? (jk)

  8. I’ve been at my local LA Fitness and an Homie’da gangbanger had a gat clearly visible in his droopy drawers. I don’t say a damn thing…

  9. Sort of contradictory there, Sam. You state (correctly) that most folks couldn’t tell if you had a howitzer stuffed in your pants, but a paragraph later you’re listing the risks being taken by concealed carriers that print. Well, which is it?

    When I open carry, most people don’t even notice the red-dotted .44 mag S&W hanging off my belt!

    If I do happen to see someone printing, I’ll just give him/her a smile and a nod and continue on my business.

    • You have me confused. Looked at my one comment, I made no list. My comment noted that a person thought to do me a favor, and even though unnecessary, I appreciated it. No list of dangers.

    • /most/ people will not notice the howitzer in your pants. /some/ people will.

      in most cases, those who will are the ones that could cause you the most concern: cops, carriers, and criminals. none of those groups are interested in you using your gun, especially if they think you are going to use it on them. so, printing makes you a target of observation, some of which may not be in your favor.

  10. Sam, for your health and safety, mind your own business. That “printer” may be a mugger in waiting. Stay alert, stay silent.

    • “Sam, for your health and safety, mind your own business. That “printer” may be a mugger in waiting. Stay alert, stay silent.”


      How did you arrive at your comment/reply, here?

        • “Sam Hoober is the author of the article. One Sam for all, all Sams for one?”

          Thanks. I overlooked that part.

          Back to me pint and chips.

  11. Carrying on the waist is asking for a print job. Do shoulder holster carrying for your primary and pocket carry your BUG.

    • I’ve never had a shoulder holster I found very comfortable, and in light summer wear, they print just as bad. What do you do, wear the bare straps against your skin under a t-shirt? Blech.

      If you’re wearing an outer garment to conceal the straps, a well-fitting holster on your waist will conceal just as well.

      • There is a Euro company called Falco (Yes, Falco, not Galco) that does custom leather holsters for ~$80. I have their “Roto-Tilt” shoulder holster for my 941 Jericho. Great holster, very comfortable.

        I use it mainly for car trips or riding a motorcycle.

  12. 99.9% of the people out there wouldn’t recognize if someone was printing or not. Most people have their faces so buried in their smart(sic) phones they wouldn’t see it much less recognize what it was. I live in a Free state so it’s of no concern here.

  13. I would like a friend of family member to let me know… so I have a better conscious of it… but I wouldn’t go up to a stranger and let them know… none of my business…

  14. If it is someone I know, and we’re in an area where it might become an issue, then yes, I’ll make a quiet notification.

    Someone I don’t know? I’m minding my own business, except to evaluate who/what/etc the person in question is, and whether or not they might be a threat.

    • This^

      The only time I told someone I didn’t know that he was printing (actually, displaying unintentionally) was when I was boarding a plane and the Air Marshal in the front row of first class had his ankle holster and J-frame visible. I didn’t make a big deal of it, just pointed to his ankle as I walked by. He seemed a bit non-plussed

  15. I’d prefer you didn’t bother me. In my state (Ohio), open carry is legal without a permit, and concealed carry with a permit. In the summer, I know I print all the time — just an untucked t-shirt over my gun. I don’t care.

  16. And it’s liable to panic some of the, well, let’s say the more excitable element of the non-carrying public.

    It’s not my job to sooth the hysterical ninnies of the world. I’m legal. They can run and complain to the cops for all I care and see what good it does them.

    • While I’d like to take your attitude I cannot because there is evidence that such an attitude leads to bad outcomes.

      Concealment fails in the wrong circumstances and you’d rather be OCing because people assume that means you’re a cop. Seeing a concealed weapon sets some people off in ways that are dumb but could end up with YOU being dead following a struggle for your gun. While it’s not high on my list of concerns it’s something to think about in certain areas at certain times.

      • Really? Something like that is about as likely as a lightning strike. I am at far more danger of dying on my ranch every day from cattle and horses.

        If anyone ever does that to me, then I will simply eat my popcorn and watch as they go to jail for assaulting someone engaged in a completely legal behavior.

        • “If anyone ever does that to me…”

          Anyone? Don’t be so sure about that Sir. Otherwise the your tombstone might read with a single word: “Hubris”.

      • If someone pulled that move on me, they’d be bled out on the floor in about a minute from my carving them up. I wouldn’t use a gun in that kind of encounter, but a knife? Oh yea.

        And with my EMS knowledge of anatomy, I know just where to start carving, too.

        • If you get to use the knife. You may well not. Not every asshole is going to be an untrained idiot like the guy in my example video.

  17. Meh. If anybody ever asks (none yet) it’s a medical device. It has the star of life on the back plate, and if indicated I can help someone who’s not thinking right by administering a hot lead enema.

  18. I was at a parade recently and I saw a guy printing his 2 extra clips on his left hip and his OWB pistol on his right. His shirt was so short that it kept revealing half of his pistol. I would have said something but he kept pulling his shirt down, clearly aware that he was no longer concealed. That, and he had a gold star next to his weapon. I make it a point not to tell an officer from the county sheriff’s department what to do.

  19. Since I live in a county in Ca that doesn’t okay CCWs, I love to ask someone about their gun “printing”. It means that I have just blown cover for a LEO. It also may save his life some day.

  20. Nope. Dont care. Open carry is legal most places anyway. I live in one of the few non open carry states 😩- and I still see people open carry sometimes, I don’t say a damn thing because more power to them for taking a stand.

  21. I would not say anything unless I know them. OC is legal here anyway so its more poking your nose in someones business than anything else. The dire warnings against printing being called brandishing are pretty far out. Possible, but not likely nor logical. Like using hallow points and worrying about using extra deadly bullets.

  22. As I carry using a SHTF tuckable IWB holster with a SHTF belt mag carrier. T-shirt and jeans every day. The mag carrier is always visible next to my phone case on my left side. I believe most if they notice it don’t have a clue what it is. No one has ever asked…..
    I don’t think 99.9% of the public even notice the holster straps showing on my right belt side.
    So I don’t worry and with a good holster and a REAL gun belt. My EDC guns from a P938 to a Officers size 1911.
    There is no printing with my rigs. A Commander sized 1911 full sized grip butt does print so I leave that one at home.

  23. We do have a coupla interesting “takes” on concealed guns in my little burg. We have an ordinance that allows carry of guns in private vehicles, but not concealed unless you have permission. The quirk is that you may transport your guns, but if you move them from a vehicle, and the guns are covered or cased, they are “concealed”. Without a concealed carry permit, one is subject to arrest. I figure you can drive your vehicle into a garage, and go through the door connecting to the house, with guns cased. You are at risk if you park in the drive, and carry the cased guns through the front door. Haven’t heard of anyone who actually was arrested, but I do wonder why the police are not setup in the parking lot for gun stores and the local shooting range.

    The other little oddity is that “printing” is not a legal term, but….if you give someone the vapors over exposing your gun, you can be charged with “menacing” and “brandishing”, or both. Again, no horror stories to report, but it seems one of those things where “the law” retains the threat in order to discourage concealed carry. Even open carry can land you in jail if someone feels their life is threatened (who’s to say otherwise?. I have seen absolutely zero open carry in this town.

  24. I used to work for a company and my activities involved going to shady neighborhoods to give service to our customers. I had to wear a company issued uniform that was pretty tight and the shirt had to be tucked in.

    I couldn’t find a pocket holster I liked for the .380 Glock I bought for the job. I solved the problem by putting my cell phone in the pocket with the gun, so it just looked like a really fat phone.

    If anyone would have reported that I had a gun, I’d get fired, so I had to figure out how to not print in the shape of a gun.

  25. printing shminting.
    if someone’s deal was exposed i could see a polite and discrete, “you might want to pull your shirt down.”
    but this can also happen: my friend porkoreeky pete says, “hey, when you picked that thing up i could see your gun under your shirt.”
    overhearing this the israeli comments, “good to know…”
    good intentions can get you made, which sways dynamics.

  26. In Rhode Island, where very few pistol permits are issued, nobody pays attention to printing. I have made an effort to print and I am totally ignored even past the armed security at Whole Foods.

    • Why don’t people in RI want carry licenses? I just read this from WPRI (Channel 12):

      “A spokesperson for Attorney General Peter Kilmartin said in 2015 the state approved 98 percent of all new concealed carry applications and 96 percent of renewals. Towns approved 87 percent of all applications”

      So it seems that if you apply through the AG’s office you’ll almost certainly be granted a license (98 percent). I can only assume people in RI don’t want to carry a gun.

      • Or the ones who won’t get approved know better than to apply.
        What’s funny is that RI is supposed to be ‘may issue’ for the AG’s office and ‘shall issue’ for the municipalities, so you’d think the state would be the one doing the declining.

  27. If it were me, I’d appreciate the help. Assuming the helper uses a similar level of discretion I was attempting to go for with my concealed weapon in the first place. I don’t want anyone barking out “hey, you have a gun, don’t you!?” at the 7-Eleven.

  28. Live in a free state. Don’t care if I print. If some obnoxious meddler ever comments, I’ll thank them and go about my business.

    The only time my printing was a problem was with an out-of-state cop who wasn’t familiar with the local laws. He was brought in by the small local pd to help cover a big seasonal event. It was a mildly-annoying encounter that cost me five minutes of my time.

    • I had to be VERY concerned about printing when I lived and carried in California without a permit. I traded one kind of risk for another.

  29. I had a minor argument about this with the wife this morning. She was concerned that my jacket would slip up while I was at the store and I would get in trouble, even though we live in an open-carry state. As far as I’m concerned, if I were printing I’d rather be given a friendly heads-up than not. That said, I’ve gotten pretty used to wearing clothes that mitigate printing and checking myself in the mirror before I go out anyway. Also, small-of-back carry is unlikely to visibly print; it’s also uncomfortable to sit for long, so pick your poison.

  30. If it’s firearm printing, it’s patriotic, and falls under the First Amendment, “Freedom of the Press”.

    IF it’s not the weapon, but the holster that’s printing, and the weapon has been placed into the holster, that’s the Right to peaceable assembly.

    Sorry, the way our POS neighbors who needed a job find rights-to-crazy-shit in The Constitution, I just thought there should be some push-back.

    You should tell Caitlyn Jenner if he’s printing. As a courtesy. And that the hands always give you away.

  31. If you suspect someone is printing, use carbon paper and a pencil to confirm it BEFORE you point it out.

  32. If someone is not ‘printing’ but their ‘tell(s)” have become apparant to you, you should point out that you know where their weapon(s) reside on their person, and how you can tell, because a neurotic cc’er has faster reaction times.

  33. I point at the person and very loudly say, “She’s got a gun! SHE’S GOT A GUN.” Then turn to her and say, “See? No one cares.”

  34. I conceal carry my pistols holsters on belted “gun shorts” so when I leave home and need to become civilized I put long pants over them.
    My .357 snub-nose doesn’t print much holstered for right-hand (my only CCW pistol I can shoot right-handed; arthritis) cross draw under a 2/3rds unbuttoned button down shirt. Some times issues getting up from a table.
    My .45 1911 in left hand plastic paddle holster at hip, under a vest, jacket, t-shirt (seldom) or open button down shirt (common) does have a tendency to print the barrel tip of the holster when I sit down.
    My .45LC/.450 “Raging Judge Magnum” same as 1911 but no t-shirt hiding. Has a tendency to tip print as well as print the pommel of the grip if turning to far to the right or bending over to pick something up.

    I usually wear a graphic T-shirt to create a “busy” style to draw the sight away from any print.
    The fact is if I was “surprised” at close range my actual weapon of choice would be my hardwood hook cane that you find in almost every rural supply store (and most martial arts studio) a stint of Athletic Dueling in collage.
    In spite of the fact I open carry a buck knife (it says so on the scabard) on my right hip.

  35. Dress for the weather and conditions – and have more than one carry gun and holster combination to suit the situation.


    As for the other guy, his problem, not mine.

  36. I would only tell them if we were somewhere where printing (or carrying concealed) was illegal, for some reason. Even then I’d only do so if I could do so discretely.

    If it isn’t illegal, though, who cares?

  37. Over the weekend I saw a couple motorcycles driving in front of me. the wind blowing their shirts around one reached down and tucked in the right side of their t-shirt then I noticed he was printing badly, after noticing that I saw the same amount of printing on his buddy. I got up next to them at a light, but they were off before I had a chance to roll down the window and tell them they were printing badly. probably it would have been fine once they got to their destination I think the wind was the man reason for the issue.

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