East Cleveland police responded to a call of an altercation on Sunday. When they arrived on the scene, they found a woman lying on the ground, calling for help and a man who threw his shirt at their cruiser yelling at them. As bodycam video of the incident reveals, when the suspect charged one of the officers, he was shot once in the abdomen.
But the bullet didn’t really slow him down. While the shot knocked the perp down, he bounced right back up and resumed his attack on another officer.
It eventually took three four cops to hold him down and cuff him, despite the gunshot wound. News reports don’t reveal whether or not the man was under the influence or not, but that seems a good bet given how little consideration he gave to the gunshot wound.
This is an excellent illustration of the stopping power — or lack thereof — of handgun rounds. As Dr. Sydney Vail wrote at policeman.com,
The point here is that no single ammunition that is typically used by law enforcement officers today can reliably claim to have superior stopping power.
I have seen a .22 caliber bullet completely incapacitate someone and a .45 ACP fail to achieve that result. People and animals shot with 10mm rounds and .357 SIG rounds have continued to run from the police. I have been on scene as a tactical medical provider when a suicidal person shot himself in the head with a .45 Colt round resulting in instant death. And I have seen the same results in suicides that used smaller calibers, including .22, .25, and .32. I have also seen people hit with 9mm, .40, and .45 without so much as staggering or slowing their verbal or physical activities.
Just as when you’re evaluating real estate, the three most important considerations in judging any round’s stopping power are location, location and location.
The ultimate stopping power rests with your training with your weapon system. Accurate hits in any reasonable caliber will “stop” a person if that person has experienced enough brain or spinal cord damage to interrupt regular neurologic impulses from reaching vital areas of the body or the person has hemorrhaged enough blood to lower his or her blood pressure where the brain no longer is able to function well. You can also stop a person if a major bone shatters after a bullet injures it, but does that stop the fight?
Again, that depends. If your attacker is under the influence, he may not even realize he’s been shot. Which is why personal defense trainers tell you to shoot until you’ve stopped the threat. And as this video shows, dangerous circumstances can develop quickly and make that difficult.
East Cleveland uses .40s. If a .40 won’t do it, a 9mm won’t either. Better step it up to .45 like (some) Cleveland Heights cops use. HUEHEUHUEHUEHEHUE
It is a never ending discussion, 9mm means more rounds and greater chance of achieving a debilitating hit for example on CNS.
9×19 is like 5.56×45. You’re going to need those extra rounds especially when you have a short barrel.
I think most people carry short barrel semi-autos when they conceal carry. It makes sense to have a short barrel revolver as you can carry more powerful rounds. I don’t think it makes much sense to carry a short barrel 9mm with a long grip unless you carry appendix.
I rather have a longer barrel, shorter grip, staggered magazine and 10mm. If it’s going to be a striker fired gun, I would want a very low bore axis. If it has an average height bore axis, I rather it be hammer fired.
I always heard it was better to appendix-carry a longer-barreled gun so it ends up resting down by your junk instead of digging into your pelvis. Either way, I wouldn’t do it. Short-barreled, full-gripped “carry” models are really intended for OWB and horizontal shoulder holsters.
While right in the article “I have seen a .22 caliber bullet completely incapacitate someone and a .45 ACP fail to achieve that result.”
Or squeeze the trigger a few more times. A 9mm mag dump will stop anybody.
Ask the FBI about that. This discussion will never die…
hard to envision anything more unnerving than shooting someone and having them continue to advance apparently unfazed……
That is a dream that most LEO have, they are involved in an incident, shoot, shoot and shoot some more and even though you see the rounds, no real effect. Horrible dream.
Works if you get them between the eyes !!
I agree. A well placed head shot stops anyone, drugged up, drunk, or sober. Two head shots make sure. Three is hard to do, because there won’t be much left to hit.
From what I was reading this happened in 2018 and I also read that the East Cleveland police had already switched from the 40SW to 9MM a long time ago what a mistake.
Please watch the whole video from someone who was ask by police about switching from the 40sw to the 9MM.
A hit from a .500 round ends all arguments over caliber, stopping power, shot placement, or whatever. When you hit someone with a .500 bullet, they simply vanish in a pink mist.
From what EDC handgun?
Sawed-off deagle.
Fancy tooled Buscadero holster, rawhide tie down for the leg, thirty rounds of ammunition in leather loops on the belt, big-a Texas barbecue real silver belt buckle, 10x beaver stetson, and hand made custom riding heel cowboy boots, scruffy beard, small cigar on the side of the mouth to finish it all off.
Best to use a two-hand grip after clearing leather.
Yeah… but most sane people have a hard time carrying portable naval artillery.
“Yeah… but most sane people have a hard time carrying portable naval artillery.”
Well…there’s that.
OK, so if it is in appendix carry, shouldn’t it be, like, “navel” artillery?
ppffftt… amateurs…
Oh, please. .500 is nothing like 6.5 Creedmoor.
Ooh! Ooh! We should neck down .500 Magnum to 6.5mm for revolvers! We’ll call it 6.500 Creedmag. .500 Magnum has a larger case capacity than .308 ((probably negated by bottlenecking, but whatever)).
“Ooh! Ooh! We should neck down .500 Magnum to 6.5mm for revolvers! We’ll call it 6.500 Creedmag.”
Get to the patent office quickly; you are on to something.
I know the Creedmoor will blast basketball holes going in and exiting, but….
Can the Creedmoor actually vaporize the body like a .500 can?
Nah, it creates small black holes that suck the life force out of whatever it hits while it passes through.
Sucking the life force out of the target is not as efficient as turning it into pink mist. As a mist, the life force cannot ever be reassembled, or find another host.
Only one way to find out, here, hold this dictionary…
“Only one way to find out, here, hold this dictionary…”
Only if it is one of those three-foot thick samples you find in the library.
And the book is soaked in water.
Look Man, we don’t need to be creating any new black holes in the universe, so don’t screw with that round. Use a .308 instead.
“Look Man, we don’t need to be creating any new black holes in the universe, so don’t screw with that round. Use a .308 instead.”
Wish I was a successful sci-fi/fantasy writer. Can “see” the nub of a really cool story about someone accidentally opening a hole in the universe in the midst of a defensive gun use.
I’ll see your Needmore and raise you to 50BMG as an EDC.
I Seen A 300 Lbs Pig Get Up And Walk Away From A 500 S&W with 440 grain SwcGc
It’s NOT the caliber- it’s bullet construction- police & military use full metal jackets- no expansion- very little shock — get a better bullet and practice so you can hit where you are aiming –
Nah 6.5 creedmoor TC contender pistol should be standard issue , for all police departments,
I cannot understand why this has not already been done!
So, basically I understood that nothing short of a rifle will always work, and it’s better to have more ammo because you’re probably going to need it.
Spare mags fella’s…
Ya super-duper “high powered” AR-15 vaporizer (w/9 round mag). Because it’s “designed” to tumble and explode and stuff.
Don’t forget ‘heat seeking’!
There are examples of people getting hit with rifle rounds and continuing to fight as well. Makes me glad I upgraded my home defense goto to a semi-auto shotgun.
Noisy Cricket is all you need. Beats everything but a 6.5 Creedmoor.
Alright folks. Everyone go home. Here’s our winner.
This is why the 30 mm Gatlin on the A-10 works so well…
Uhm, I was taught to keep shooting till the threat stops. At least a followup shot. But that’s just me, I guess.
I think they realized he was not armed and decided not to kill him . gutsy call on their part. but there were 2 of them and they had backup coming.
That was a stress shot…. the cop had an “oh shit” moment and yanked the trigger without thinking. After that he (and all the other cops except the one being directly attact by the suspect) was having some kind of “outer body” experience and turned in to a spectator. The only other cops who got involved in the fight showed up later and weren’t there when the cop shot his gun…. they went in to “range mode”, i.e. when you hear gun fire: don’t bend over, don’t run around, don’t yell, don’t look left or right, etc…. bad training for cops or anybody else who choses to carry. People have to be trained to think through a shooting and take follow up actions.
P.s…. there were at least 3 cops initially. The one that shot turned in to a “camera man” because his brain turned to mush after he pulled the trigger.
He looks to be a noob being trained.
” The one that shot turned in to a “camera man” because his brain turned to mush after he pulled the trigger…”
I experienced this fist-hand in active-shooter simunitions training once. Took me about 5 seconds to unfuck myself after I screwed up. Good thing it was just training because those 5 seconds are loooong.
He looked plenty gddmmed dangerous to me, charging in to fight and end the cop—maybe take his gun.
In Penna we were allowed to carry a backup specifically to “defend the gun.”
Ask our vets how well their 5.56 rifle ammo works for stopping threats.
I remember seeing a suicide bomber get shot repeatedly because he kept on getting up and a guy get shot up yet was still able to run away as if nothing happened. It’s as if you need an 18 inch or longer barrel or expanding bullets when you have 5.56.
Two shots to the thoracic cavity, if they fail to stop, another shot to the ocular cranial area.
Yep. Mozambique works every time.
Yup. I agree.
Exactly what is taught a Front Sight in Nevada. Love that place.
So easy to do – while sitting at a keyboard.
Kudos to the cops involved for actually wrestling him to the ground and arresting him rather than 3of mag dumps execution style.
Did you see the video? I agree there are circumstances where the cops are a wee bit too trigger-happy these days, but…
This is an obviously very high individual. Who is (more importantly) aggressively violent. He earned a better tune-up than Rodney King, sadly, he didn’t get it.
Likely dust, or perhaps crack/cocaine psychosis. Anyway you slice it, unless you have 6+ large males on the ‘suspect’, he’ll keep going until he breaks every bone in his own body, yours too if you get in the way.
I wouldn’t blame them a bit for a triple mag dump. That’s what it takes to stop them.
I indeed saw the video and the individual could well have been on some sort of drug. I also know that bare hands can be deadly weapons. However, in this case there were several cops on scene (if the cop was alone, it would have been a different story) and despite the perp fighting like a madman, they did subdue him without filling him with 40 holes first.
So, in this case I think they acted appropriately and deserve kudos. Many countries police forces seem to be able to subdue crazed attackers without killing them, all too often here we see what seems to be unreasonable force utilized.
Like most of us, I’m an armchair warrior and the internet has given us the ability to spout off so this is my 5c worth!!
We don’t use cents anymore now that we have the internet. We use bitcoin.
I rather cops be in shape and know how to use their body to stop the unarmed threat than endangering the neighborhood with mag dump after mag dump.
If you suck at your job that shouldn’t give you the power to kill. If that’s the standard women cops are going to be ruthless serial killers.
If you ever got in a fight where it’s you and your buddies against one person, I don’t think you would ever shoot the man dead with a mag dump. That sounds more like what a gang member would do outside of a club.
I can understand if you shoot a man if you can’t stop him verbally or physically from doing this (which is how people die from “hands and feet”):
Oh come on that is a bunch or red herrings. Other countries’ have a lot less violent nuts on the streets because in almost every country locking them up for mandatory treatment is easier with lower thresholds than the US thanks to our ACLU.
The perp in this case is a military age male who looks high enough to be highly aggressive and violent but not high enough to be slowed by his drugs, that is very dangerous.
thousands and thousands people are murdered or grievously injured by unarmed men this age and size every year.
The number of people who are killed by police who don’t have what is, or appears to be, a deadly weapon is trivial in our country of 350 million.
Just spitballing here….
Deadly force is only authorized when facing deadly force, right? So now we have a cop who declared a deadly threat by the act of shooting the perp (once), then the cop decided it wasn’t a deadly threat after all? Does the second decision under cut the first decision? Do we have a cop guilty of attempted homicide?
There is no such thing as attempted homicide.
Homicide is: a person killing an other person, be it murder, justifiable homicide, negligence, etc. I think what you mean is murder. You think the cop had enough time to think, form malicious intent, and then act on it a-la murder? I don’t see it. I see a cop who arrived on scene and saw a bloody victim laying on the ground; pulled his gun as a precaution and had a fraction of a second to make a life and death decision when he was attacked by the suspect…. it took a few more seconds to propperly assess the situation and threat but the suspect didn’t give him those seconds before he attacked the cop who was pointing a gun at him.
Ok, attempted murder (distinction without a difference, and all that).
Question remains, if there was imminent threat of death or grievous bodily harm (evidenced by the cop taking the shot), but then there was no deadly threat (evidenced by three cops wrestling the perp to the ground) was there a deadly threat at all?
Having only a moment to decide is not mitigation. Or is it OK that cops get to screw up, and a standard CCW holder is just SOL in such situation?
“Deadly force is only authorized when facing deadly force, right?
Wrong. In all 50 states deadly force is allowed when with you or a third party is threatened by deadly force, OR what a reasonable person would expect under the circumstances at t time to be imminent great bodily harm.
It does not have to be you that is threatened, and it does not have to be deadly force., great bodily harm would include compound fracture, or broken skull, a thumb in the eye or rape.
That is pretty much the laws in all 50 states with only some states requiring you if you are outside your home, to retreat — if you can do so safety, and some states not requiring you to. If you are acting because a third party is threatened in no state do you have to retreat.
Sam I Am…. re: murder? No. Attempted murder requires “malice a forethought” or “lying in wait” or “premeditation”. The cop seems more shocked and surprised than murderously angry or deranged and cold blooded. So, no…. the cop did not attempt to murder him. “Attempted justifiable homicide” and “attempted negligent homicide” are, again, meaningless terms. “Attempted assisted suicide (quasi homicide) by cop”? I don’t know if that’s a thing.
“Or is it OK that cops get to screw up, and a standard CCW holder is just SOL in such situation?” “Screw up” is an “armchair quarter back” opinion after the fact when all information is known. SCOTUS said it is irrelevant when weighing use of force, particularly deadly force. Supreme Court said a cop using deadly force is held to the “reasonableness” standard. SCOUS said the only opinion that matters when weighing that standard is what a similarly trained officer, with similar work experience, with the same limited information known to the cop at the time of the shooting, would do in the same circumstances. Other stuff is factored in but thats the meat and potatoes right there. What the other cops on scene did or didn’t do is irrelevant, because their perceptions and experiences are all different. …. CCW holders are at the whim of the prosecuting district attorney reviewing the case and the scope of the shooting via statutory law, unless there is some case law I don’t know about…. in short: yes. CCW holders are screwed (or sitting pretty, depending on judicial district).
When a police officer points a gun at you and you charge at him, you have provided reasonable grounds on which to consider you a imminent deadly threat. So legally, justifiable. But tactically… not good. This is a reminder that a gun can hinder as much as help. At long range it gives options that would not be otherwise available. At short range, it takes them away in many cases.
By drawing his gun immediately in response to an unarmed* threat, an officer reduces his own available options from many to only 2… and then 1. Had he not drawn his gun he could have used a variety of empty-hand techniques or less-lethal weapons (OC, taser, baton, etc). Yes, the bad guy may be stronger and might win in a fight between only the two if them, but in this case the officer had backup right there and additional units responding quickly. Instead by drawing his gun from a security holster he has introduced a firearm to what was an unarmed confrontation. Because of the poor positioning and close range, drawing that gun basically made the suspect a “imminent threat” right away.
Didn’t have to go that way. If you can’t use your brain, at least know how to use your fists.
*yes, every incident the cops go to has a gun involved, but there’s a big difference between a gun in a triple-retention holster and one in the hand.
Rabid feral animals deserve to die in the street. That dude was feral, he needed killing.
Well I didn’t see his soul hovering over the body so it must not have been a .45
It’ll be real interesting to see what the tox screen results are on this guy. It wouldn’t surprise me if there was something other than adrenaline keeping him up.
One to the head usually works well…just sayin…
Head shoot a unarmed guy in a 3 on 1? Kiss badge & Pension away.
We need to arm our police with 6.5 Creedmoor pistols. Its time for a one shot stop.
I read once in a police tactical book that one guy was shot *33 times* with 9mm and still managed to run 100 yards before collapsing.
“Stopping power” means shooting them in the heart AND the head (preferably in the upper right quadrant where the motor controls are – the sniper’s target.) Everywhere else just makes ’em mad.
I have seen a few people run around for about 5 seconds after they been shot in the heart with 9mm. Of course they died, but they had a few seconds of life to do something.
If you have to put someone down immediately it’s going to require a shot to the brain. A shot to the spine will drop them quick, but they could still have functional arms. A shot to the face could do nothing; it has to be in the cranium (some will say the “T” zone).
Why don’t gun owners — that don’t live in states with 10 round limits — buy 10mm for their semi-autos? We already know that 9mm, out of short barrels, doesn’t do what you need it to unless you’re a master of precision or get lucky with your mag dump.
This guy survived. Were they using 9mm?
.40 S&W would never have gotten anywhere without the AWB and 10 round magazine limits.
Unfortunately, If the DemoCommies, SJW/Brownshirts, some RINOs, and EU-Globalist buddies have THEIR way in the not to distance future…This could be common practice for Law Enforcement for dealing with “Open Carry People, NRA types, Libertarians, Constitutionalists, and every Freedom loving American that That clings to their guns, bible’s, and the U.S. Constitutional–Bill of Rights…” Just some clairvoyance and Precognition into a dystopian future that the DNC has been clamoring for….You know, for public safety and the children…..Starting on the “Left-Coast and in the Eastern Bloc/ Socialist Police-States…”
Shot placement is 3 times more important that caliber in handguns.
No one is taught to shoot in the abdomen. Those are not “stopping” hits. BAD AIM.
UPPER THORAX, not shoulders, is the target that combines likelihood of hitting and wounds sufficient to stop the attack.
Yet another video showing why cops should not be armed. Better a cop take an ass beating than a cop shoot an unarmed man.
So what if the guy handing out the beating is 6’7″ and 300 pounds of muscle? I guess I should just take an asswhipping with potentially fatal consequences too? If your answer is no, then do you advocate beating people to death based on their job? If your answer is yes, then you’re wrong on many levels.
Better you take a beating, then a raping, instead of shooting an unarmed burglar in the night. Chris Mallory. The man who wants to be raped in the night.
Ha, ha ,ha
(Smile)
I am totally confused why shooting this guy was the first tactic used. I can’t tell from the recording if he was reported as armed, but a guy charging an officer when there are multiple officers does not necessarily warrant deadly force. Tazer, baton, hand to hand were all options. Cops have to abide by the use of force continuum (well, at least in theory).
I don’t think we have heard the last of this case unless there was a gun reported in conjunction with the bad guy.
I think he is fresh out of the academy still being trained by another officer until he is experienced enough to work on his own. Regardless of experience level, I don’t think this job is for him, but the need for more police will likely keep this guy employed.
Tazing and maze are often not effective against a drugged up attacker, been proven time after time. A juiced up big guy presented a threat of imminent death or great bodily injury in this case. The cop did what was required IMHO
Having gone “hands on” with a guy on PCP, I realize how dangerous it is. There is nothing in the story or the accompanying link to say the guy was under the influence. I suspect he was, and obviously I wasn’t there so I couldn’t see his eyes, but going straight to guns when there are multiple officers is NOT going to help the police’s reputation.
I find it funny that every time there is a man willing to fight through pain people think he is on some magic drug that makes him defy the rules of this planet. Some people have something called: will power. They can do all kinds of things if they don’t care about injury or death.
I been in a situation where I was in so much pain my body was uncontrollably shaking (quite embarrassing). They asked if I wanted some drugs. I said, “no, I can deal with it.” It’s not something you want to go through, but it can be done.
“Hands on” with the chemically enhanced is an interesting experience.
Imminent death? That is iffy here.
Front sight center mass, and pop ’till he DROPS
Haven’t yall played Call of Duty?? a gun can’t kill them in one hit, but the knife will! stupid ass game.
You need to play Insurgency.
Ironically a taser might have been more effective at stopping the angry shirtless man than a bullet. Tunnel vision and predetermined action lead to him already having his gun drawn as they traveled to the incident.
Personally, I carry a phased plasma rifle in the 40-watt range.
Bonus, if they’re on any kind of volatile chemical, it lights their breath on fire … easier to track that way.
10mm here, OWB… G20SF, concealed when convenient for me. There are obvious limitations to every system… better be prepared to use multiple systems, like these officers did.
This is a good illustration as to why sending more than one round is necessary.
But legalizing pot won’t ever lead to this.
One 10mm would work.
Newsflash! Sometimes it takes more than one shot even from a long gun.
And in late-breaking news, water is wet, fire will burn you if you get too close, and blah, blah, blah . . . ad infinitum.
The way I put it: “Stopping an assailant occurs at the intersection of physics, physiology and luck.”
All handgun calibers suck snd you can debate all you want about 45 versus nine and it’s stupid. It is all about shot placement. Therefore one should choose a gun that is easy to shoot and has tremendous capacity and I choose a 9 mm. Ammunition is cheap and widely available in various quality defensive formats.
45/9=5. Any questions?
Mark, I agree. Shot placement overshadows everything else. A powerful round ( 44 magnum ) that rips through a persons hand does not count as much as a lesser round ( 9mm ) that penetrates a skull.
But this can’t be. A Colorado anti-gun politician running for office swears peppers spray would work against a school shooter and that teachers need not be armed. He believed in it so much that he pepper sprayed himself to prove it. I think it just goes to prove that not every tool works the same in all conditions.
Two to the chest, the face gets the rest.
Head shots are much more of a deterrent , but what I want to know is how Dr. Sidney Vail has managed to see all those people being shot with all those different caliber guns , WTF .
I still think a burst of four or five 22 WMR in the chest would have had greater effect than a single shot from a larger caliber . Something about 4 or 5 holes gives one pause to consider their odds , and they won’t know what you used , and 4 or 5 more bleeder holes , well , do the math .
Is it of importance to you that you missed the entire flavor of the comments?
The police have a ruff tuff job that liberals refuse to do.
Not a physicist here, but plain old action = opposite reaction means if’n it don’t knock down the shooter, it won’t knock down the shot.
Cue BLM and the Libtards crying about how he was just an innocent boy who wasn’t doing anything wrong.
Well all I know is that my wise and all knowing state officials have assured me, and legislated so that I may be safer, that I will never need more than 10 rounds of anything to defend myself. They don’t even have to be hits! I feel so safe I could cry.
Learn from our mistakes.
Repeat step one until the threat is neutralized!
This is why they make 15 round magazines!
When you wrestle with a suspect you put your life in danger!
Shot placement > “Knock down power” every single time. You can have a rocket launcher, if you aren’t hitting what you’re aiming at, caliber ain’t the problem.
Placement is everything. I chose a milspec Beretta 9mm over everything else. I rented 60 handguns to determine the winner. Not all handguns are created equally. Why did I choose that handgun? It fits my hand like a glove, it is 15+1, it doesn’t feel heavy when 1 handed firing and most importantly of all……my accuracy with it beat the others.
Same here te shot placement. A Glock 17 will put a full magazine in a playing card at 10 yards rapid fire. FOR ME.
Shooting someone is a lot like real estate… LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION!
Oh please, everyone still taking caliber. Learn to shoot, blow his heart out and he’s going down, doesn’t work put a couple in his brain case and make sure he has a closed casket funeral.
If he’s worth shooting once, then shoot to stop!