http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01yg4-S8kEQ
“Pittsburgh police are reviewing the ammunition used by the department because officers raised fears that the bullets do not have enough stopping power,” the Pittsburgh TribuneĀ reports. “The officers say that twice in recent weeks it has taken several shots for an officer to disable a gunmen who was shooting at police.” Head shots? Mozambique? No? “Officers have worried about the ammo in recent months, said Officer Eric Engelhardt, chairman of the FOP Officer Safety Committee. ‘There’s not a lot of confidence in this ammo in our department.'” ‘Cause, you know, it didn’t work! To wit . . .
Officer Morgan Jenkins was shot and critically wounded and his partner injured in a scuffle and shootout early Thursday with James Robert Hill in Homewood. Officer Christopher Kertis was shot twice in the leg on March 17 in a shootout with Dante Bonner, 18, in East Liberty.
In both cases, officers said, the gunman continued to shoot at officers despite being wounded.
What’s that all about? I thought you shot someone and they fell down dead like they do in the movies.
C’mon. Seriously? Are we to believe that the Pittsburgh police don’t haveĀ access to YouTube? There’s about a bazillion videos on the subject available for immediate viewing, some of them by people who haven’t shot themselves during a negligent discharge.
Or . . .
Maybe there’s a cult of the .45 in the police ranks or, indeed, the po-po’s upper echelon. Ā Complaining about .40 is the key to forcing an “upgrade” and, eventually. indulging their JMB fanboyitis.
Alternative theory two:Ā this kvetching is an excuse for some immediate ammo testing fun on the taxpayer’s dime.
Deputy Chief Paul Donaldson sent a memo to the police bureau saying the .40 caliber ammunition being used by officers was picked after a comparison study conducted by FBI experts.
Still, police plan to evaluate the stock, compare products and track shot placement in officer involved shootings.
So NOW the Pittsburgh Police want to track shot placement? And these are the guys that the disarmament industry doesn’t want to disarm. Go figure.
“I will give them a really hot AG, then when they get screwed over by her, just looking at her will be a painkiller”-Obama, deep in AG selection though process.
pssssssh, sounds like nonsense to me.
Need to up their training, shooting people is like real estate.
Location, Location, Location.
Because the .40 is a spawn of it’s real Daddy,the might 10mm.Now if the FBI stuck with the original,this would be a moot case.I don’t want to hear about over penetraton.A 170 grain bullet at 1300 fps or 180 at 1275 is sufficant with ample Ft lb’s of energy.JHP of course.Or go to the .45 double stack and be done with it.
Do they really think that making a hole 1/20th of an inch wider when they shoot someone is going to be statistically significant? Newsflash: handguns don’t have great stopping power…period. If you want to consistently make a one shot stop, you have to use a shotgun or a rifle.
1
S&W .500 Magnum would like a word with you about stopping power.
The (over) emphasis that surrounds over penetration is in my summation mostly hype. How many times do you hear of someone getting shot after a projectile passes through a barrier? How many times does someone get shot ater the projectile passes through someone else? Guns distribute loads of kinetic engery which is what makes them so effective.
To The Guy 09,
The word in DE is that Biden is a closet gun nut. He supposedly has many guns and has them stashed strategically around the house. Before becoming VP (again supposedly) he hired private security for himself and his wife in order to augment what he got as a senator. The take-away to this is Joe’s anti-gun BS is delivered in exacly the same manner as the rest of his BS. But yeah not too far-fetched.
Not nice to fool with Mother Nature. Also the Duck Commander would have just shot it.
Politically: Bidens comments are simply what one gets from someone who; A. Doesn’t know what they’re talking about and. . . B. Is attempting to mislead you. Remember that it’s a legitimate principle to the left that repeating a lie often enough makes it true.
Practically: Saying a shotgun does or doesn’t do anything is difficult, since it’s performance, more so than other firearms, is so dependent on ammunition and choke configuration. Practically speaking a high velocity sabot slug from a 12 gauge provides massive over penetration for indoor/home defensive use.
Birdshot isn’t legitimately a defensive load at all, but here again shot/load choice and barrel/choke configuration matters. A .410 pistol with a 1.5 inch barrel loading standard 7shot is indeed a pathetic penetrator, and short of contact range isn’t reliably lethal. On the other hand, a 3 inch Magnum 12 gauge load of the same shot from a 28 inch barrel full choke tends to perform like a frangible slug in gelatin/flesh at typical in house ranges, impacting before leaving the shot cup and beginning expansion only upon contact. While penetration is still sub-optimal, this is one case were mere wounding potential can be a fight stopper. The sort of wounds left by such rounds so fired are often described as ‘rat-holes’ due to their size and ragged edges. The impact is still 1-1.5 oz at the stated velocity meaning that hydrostatic shock is still massive regardless of the fact that the shot string is dividing into progressively more and smaller projectiles along the length of penetration. On bare gelatin at close ranges (10 feet and less) the damage from such a round is . . .horrific. The real reason for the general (and generally true statement) that birdshot is inadequate for defensive use is that it’s effects are easily interrupted by intervening material;heavy clothing, wall board, glass anything that can cause the shot to begin separation from the cup severely limits both penetration and shock. Further, simply moving the range back has the same effect while including rapidly decreasing velocity to the degradation of performance. Thus while bird shot is only recommended when the individual pellets are capable of the desired effect on target, it’s effects at close range on lightly clothed flesh, or even through a wall at point blank ranges is still likely to produce lethal wounds.
Disregarding all of that, the chaotic and often astounding spread of birdshot when it contacts any material while still in the shot cup means that while it will still penetrate most household walls, you now have an unpredictable cloud of shot. I don’t personally consider having hit a friendly with ‘only a few pellets of relatively low velocity birdshot’ acceptable. The bottom line is don’t shoot at what you cannot hit, and even then know your backstop and what is beyond should the stop fail.
How many here train for keeping very low and firing at high angles ‘up’ into a target? In many situations this can allow for over penetrating or missed shots to continue up at such an angle that no one on the same floor could be hit even if directly behind the target.
In any even, home intrusions, gunfights and other similar events are inherently dangerous and chaotic. Use best practices, use best equipment, use your judgment, and hope for the best.
Buddy killed a charging 1,000 lb bull moose with his G35. There is nothing wrong with a 40. Hornady 165 gr critical defense. 5 shots to the chest and shoulders inside of 10 yds. It didn’t drop at his feet, veared off course and fell over about 30 yds away.
Looking at mug shots,i see 2 things that stand out.Youth and size.Throw in drugs of all sorts,you get problems.
This isn’t news – substantially all handgun cartridges, aside from the “botique” / quasi-novelty stuff like 50 AE / S&W 500 Mag., are underpowered. They’re designed to be compromise cartridges – they’re as much power as you can get without overwhelming the shooter or the gun.
The notion that .40 S&W with JHP rounds is unduly “underpowered” is simply stupid. Based on recent police shootings (e.g. LAPD’s attempted assassination of unarmed citizens in two different events) where police fire 40+ rounds and hit nothing, my suspicion is that the problem actually lies with training, not the gun.
So they shot a guy (who was probably in an altered state of mind) with a handgun and he didn’t immediately fall down and die. That’s the problem here?
I know this is a stupid question but I’m going to ask it anyway; Do they get all of their firearm information from cop dramas?
On the other hand, I wouldn’t mind seeing 10mm prices fall a little if they switch to that and others follow suit.
Looks cool! The SCAR’s charging handle reciprocates though, doesn’t it? I’m curious how a hinged piece of metal would survive that kind of action.
I think ol’ Tex pretty much covered it. Heart /bridge of the nose, got it.
Robert, this is the type of unvarnished clarity you can expect when you move to Texas.
basically it goes after non FFL gun show sales, and armslist/backpage convened sales.
both leave loopholes.
1. the attendees of the gunshow can walk across the street to the waffle house parking lot and conduct the transaction there.
2. you just have to get a friend to post the ad on your behalf.
Looks cool. I’d buy one.
Spring loaded to the closed position?
I shot a beaver once the weighed over 40lbs! When I was a kid we had a real issues with beavers making a mess of our woods. We didn’t mind them chopping down popular and birch, but then they started working on the maples and oak. My Dad said to clean them out. The problem was at first they were pretty dumb but then got really wary. I finally took to hunting them at night in a full moon with my 10/22. The nice thing about hunting them at night was they were always chomping on a tree or some limbs so I had time to line up and get a nice head shot.
Planning on anodizing it (black)?
Note to Pittsburgh PD, aim down your sights. Focus on your front sight and you’ll find the .40 is plenty adequate.
Look up the ballistics tests the FBI uses to assess penetrations of the different rounds. They want at least 12 inches of penetration, 18 being the maximum. All the hand gun ammo preforms basically the same. So as stated before, these maybe a bunch of people who watched to many tv shows and movies…can’t really say they played too many video games though cause you have to shoot someone a dozen times to get them down.
In high school my friend lost his father’s Walther PPK while we were out hunting one day. This was a gun with Nazi ties to it because it had the swastika emblem on it. Needless to say his dad asked him if he knew where it was about a year later and he told his dad that he knew nothing about it. His dad went on believing that he had lost his own gun. Good thing they are very wealthy.
If I were them I would move DOWN in caliber to 9mm.
With modern JHP’s it has similar “stoppin’ powah” to .45 and is easier to shoot accurately than .40 (it’s a lower pressure cartridge), which is what hey really need.
sung to the tune of ‘me and my shadow’:
me… and… my AR.. strolling down the avenue
That was probably James Holmes intention when he used the Remington 870 shotgun in the Aurora shooting – he didn’t want to hurt anyone in the adjacent theaters.
As a man who doesn’t own a AR and uses a shotgun in his house defense plans I’d like to take this moment to disavow any connection to or following of advice from slow joe, the special ed veep.
He makes us legit shotgun owners look bad.
The RNC called looking for money yesterday and I told them to (politely) FOAD. There are no more Republicans as we knew them (Rinos, yes, McCain, Christie, Graham…..) There are no more Democrats as we knew them. There was a time when the two parties, though with different views could occasionally work together and get something done. Now, not so much. They have morphed together into a congealed mass of bull$h!t!ng plasma that either knows major social and/or economic events are about to unfold or just don’t give the ‘old rat’s ass about the architecture of our basic configuration as a union. I’m an OWG and even I cannot align myself with the stand for nothing, fall for everything old guard of the so called Republican party.
And as far as the D’s go, the use of a Sandy Hook mother to make the State of the Union Address this morning was beneath contempt. Chicago on the Pantomimic. Common sense gun control? Prosecute the law breakers, even if they might be high ranking officials. Demand existing laws be enforced as opposed to ignoring them to excuse passing new, more restrictive laws. As pointed out ad nauseam, laws and locks only stop honest people. Criminals do criminal things, and sadly, they will always be with us, with things getting worse as options for justified self defense are incrementally restricted.
37? That would stink after a bath in liquid 3He.
You’ll be remembered, sir.
Sometimes I feel like it is just me and my gun shop guy that know what frangible shells are. Tested and proven. Will not go through drywall. Dumps ALL its energy into the target. Will obliterate any flesh it hits. Costs more than regular shells, yes but what are you willing to pay to not hit an innocent?
I have a couple boxes but also live in a brick and cedar home so I have little issue with hitting anyone outside unless I paint a window.
The RNC called looking for money yesterday and I told them to (politely) FOAD. There are no more Republicans as we knew them (Rinos, yes, McCain, Christie, Graham…..). And there are no more Democrats as we knew them. They have morphed together into a congealed mass of bull$h!t!ng plasma that either knows major social and/or economic events are about to unfold or just don’t give the ‘old rat’s ass about the architecture of our basic configuration as a union. I’m an OWG and even I cannot align myself with the stand for nothing, fall for everything old guard of the so called Republican party.
And as far as the D’s go, the use of a Sandy Hook mother to make the State of the Union Address this morning was beneath contempt. Chicago on the Pantomimic. Common sense gun control? Prosecute the law breakers, even if they might be high ranking officials. Demand existing laws be enforced as opposed to ignoring them to excuse passing new, more restrictive laws. As pointed out ad nauseam, laws and locks only stop honest people. Criminals do criminal things, and sadly, they will always be with us, with things getting worse as options for justified self defense are incrementally restricted.
+1 on angle down, and black or FDE anodizing. Just to gild the lily a bit, you could also lightly serrate that front radius to keep your finger from slipping off when it’s wet.
Great idea, I’ll buy a couple if you bring them to market.
If you need to stop someone, the best round is the second round.
Or in words of the Mozambique drill: It is all about location, location, and then… location.
I have both a SCAR 16 and SCAR 17, and bought a Stryker Enterprises EACH handle for the 17. It’s a big thing, but I like the positive grip it afford and the larger size makes it easier to grab and go, but I do wonder about it snagging in gear, etc.
I’ll follow this with great interest, seems like a great concept.
+1 for FDE and for some added “grippiness” on it.
Thanks!
To all who are wondering, PPD carries G22, G23, G27 and some G17s and they use Federal HST as duty rounds……you know a well known under-performer #sarc
āwhere there are gun sales, there are drug salesā
This form of dementia is what happens when soccer moms rule the world.
Shot placement wins out over anything else. A 22LR to the head/heart wins out over any larger caliber shot anywhere else to the body. If your shot placement is still perfect with larger calibers, then even better… the debate is moot then.
But for the typical average shooter, stick with 9mm and quality ammo (T-series, HST). It’s the best realistic compromise between size, power, and shot placement accuracy. When the military switched from 1911 to Beretta, shot accuracy went way up.
They have an uphill battle on the way…I’m glad my little town of 15,000 approved a gun range here though! We have one of the best in Ga…and they SELL guns too..:)
Crazy Joe is right — shotguns do not penetrate walls unless they’re thrown really hard and strike the wall between the studs.
And a shotgun will not kill your kids — the bad guys will do that for you.
I said it before, and I’ll say it again, Toomey is a no good, two faced rat bastard!
Wall of comments, but isn’t that the fella who shot himself in a drawing from retention video? very clever.
I know that in New York, lived there 17 years, if you are not well heeled financially and/or politically you can’t run for anything higher than water commissioner.
Isn’t Texas becoming more Democratic due to changing demographics? I wonder if that will affect its gun laws in the future
Sad. Too young. RIP.
I guess he meant trayvon(the non gun owner) otherwise who are CC holders blowing away except POS criminals? He better hide trembling behind his no weapons sign till the almighty obombastic guberment comes to save him, Randy
1. There will be cap Limit On the Number Of Class-03 (09) F.F.L.s Dealers Number Limit, is (42) Of those Licences too!! nThis will be issued by the U.S treasury Dept of Federal Building,Office Of B.A.T.F.E.A. Div. Of Federal Licences for Firearms Only Agree! in Phil. City only to Get it too!!! The Class-03 is (09) Tax Stamp, is Black Color too licence at right conner only too! The # Year Fee $ is No Limit fee, too! Ths Last Licence For The Retailer GunDealers Busineses too! Agreed!!! Not All Regular Gun Dealers Busineses Can”t Trusted With this Licence too! Is Class-(09) F.F.L.s Only to is 0.98 % Can”t be trusted too! Only About (0.0.1 % CAN DO IT TOO! Agreed!!
better watch your back. the Dems are trying to turn Texas blue in the next 10 years.
http://www.politico.com/story/2013/01/democrats-launch-plan-to-turn-texas-blue-86651.html
In general, as has been demonstrated in Colorado, retreat is not an option, we need to fight them where they are.
Sometimes retreat actually IS an option, but you’re correct – running away is simply putting yourself in a position to be overtaken and surrounded.
I have friends – gun-hating ones at THAT – who talk about expatriating to other countries. I always tell them – not that they value my advice – that the issues we face are GLOBAL in nature. You can run, but you can’t hide. The trouble you run from will most certainly track you down.
Besides, they’re miserable COWARDS.
It’s not retreat. It’s simply a consolidation of forces.
Have you noticed how many anti gunner media types are about doing violence on gun owners. Seems there may be a very good reason they do not (should not) own any guns.
Damn.
Another Brother has left us.
.223 for rabbits? What do you guys use for mountain lions?
Wait, TURNER classic movies? Even though I dislike Mr. Turner and his positions, that station is the only reason we’re keeping cable TV.
Well I am now! Lol. Seriously, Thanks for the heads up. I have the day off so I’ll be watching a few of these while writing my daily love letters to my “fearless leaders” aka “idiots”.
Well, crud. I’m a window clerk at our local post office, and if I play hookey on Tax Day my supervisor might be a wee bit peeved.
Well, may as well shoot him.
Seems like the MSM can take any situation whether real or fantasy, and turn it into an anti gun exercise (i.e. WAPO being one of the MSM leaders here). I still believe that those in the MSM, whether editors or grunts, don’t know squat about real human nature (i.e. the Criminal Mind). I have heard people who were callers to the various conservative talk shows (Rush, Hannity, Levin, etc) say with all seriousness that those of us who own and/or use “assault rifles” IN ESSENCE pulled the trigger on those helpless little kids. Yeah, just like ALL of us killed JFK (I was nearly 30 then) and this was my first experince with a large organization (the Catholic Church) that has worldwide respect that could shift the blame to everybody like they did. Since then it has become the norm.
I would like to see states alot their electoral votes proportionate to the votes each presidential candidate receives in that state, rather than the current winner take all format most states exercise.
Metro areas are by and large dictating presidential elections and the votes cast in Small Town USA go for naught, especially in the northeast, but it’s creeping down the coast and about to fundamentally alter the Old Dominion, among others.
A quick look at Red vs Blue counties last November shows just how much the tail is wagging the dog.
tex sounds about right to me.
as for the police. more training and if they are serious maybe some extra training on their own time and dime, just like the rest of us.
Ted Turner is a left-wing lunatic, but he deserves the Congressional Medal of Freedom for TCM. An absolutely perfect station (well, except for Commie Ben Mankiewicz, but he usually behaves).
Winchester ’73 is one of my favorites. Great cast (Jimmy Stewart, Millard Mitchell and an impishly insane Dan Duryea), great scenes and great dialogue.
FIOS has NRA 500
It’s a totally legit point. We used to have a training exercise that was intended to demonstrate the superiority of action over reaction (and reaction is, in a sense, just turning the table and becoming the actor instead of the reactor). The exercise went like this. We were given disarmed handguns which we holstered. The instructor would charge us from 20 ft. with a rubber knife and we were supposed to draw and get off an aimed shot (just a trigger pull on the disarmed gun)–either that or take evasive action. You wouldn’t believe how hard it was to get off an aimed shot. Same goes for stick up guys.
Or…. you could just ask FNH about their non-reciprocating charging handle that they had on display at Modern Day Marine 2012.
+1 on the Stryker Enterprises E.A.C.H. I run them on all of my SCARs.
Regardless, floating hand forward on the shroud or rails with the support hand, doesn’t ever get in the way of the charging handle, regardless of side.
This has the most to to do with the 1st amendment. Like guns without ammunition, freedom of speech without a voice is a useless appendage. Sen. Murphy knows what he is doing, trying to silence any opposition to his viewpoint. Murphy talks big about a “national debate” but doesn’t plan on letting anyone that disagrees with him speak,all to create the illusion that there is only his side of the conversation. If NASCAR is going to play this game I can live without them.
My .44mag says it has stopping power, but it still remains like Tex said, placement. Big target-small aim. I shoot snakes between the eyes, dedicated aim and kill because I donāt want rattlers to bite my loved ones. The furthest shot with a .22 pistol was 75 yds, between the eyes, witnessed. That is dedicated aim small and kill intention. Remember, aim small, and choose the point of impact. Okay, 75 yds below the ear on a white tail and only half the head was left= thatās a .44 mag hit. Truth only.
So when does the AR become C&R eligible? It was developed in the 50s and originally fielded in the 60s.
The fault would lie in the cartridges, not the caliber. If you wish, you can load damn near 357 power in a 40 (with a bigger bullet).
That would be a real 10mm.
I am also interested in they Wollard decision, as the same “good cause” applies in NY for a CCW (open carry is not illegal but may result in revocation of your permit if the approving authority so chooses).
I live in Erie County in Tonawanda (a suburb of Buffalo) and I have Cerebral Palsy (which in no way limits my safe operation, judgement etc w/ regards to personal defense and firearms). However I am financially disadvantaged ( on a monthly income) and cannot invest in then process for my CCW with no assurances. I have, in the past been a crime victim (unreported out of fear, latest was theft.. Reported, not pursued by police listed unsolvable). I don’t know what to do but often fear for my safety given the perceived dangers of daily life and my medical conditions, not to mention the fact that I often travel to Buffalo etc for medical care and am in a vulnerable portion of he populace because of my physical disadvantages.
I’ve facebooked a well known 2nd amendment attorney in Hamburg, with no reply. Any assistance, advice, guidance etc from anyone would be helpful. I am also on Facebook.
Thank you
JJ Whipple
http://www.lawofficer.com/article/training/officer-down-peter-soulis-inci
Here’s a good story about the .40S&W. The officer shot the suspect 22 TIMES! 17 COM. The perp had very little alcohol in his system, and that’s about it. I believe the problem is high velocity light-weight hollowpoints that expand nice and purty, but do not penetrate as they should. I feel that if the officer had an spare mag of FMJ(like i carry on a daily basis) that he would’ve stopped the man ASAP. I understand that handguns are only used to fight your way to a rifle š and are poor stoppers…but I do carry .45ACP FMJ for this exact reason. While obviously the ball round won’t expand, it’ll definitely reach all the vitals if needed. And in the .40S&W’s case, FMJ tends to be flat-nosed…which means it’ll glance off bone less than traditional round nose and just hammer on through any bone. And for those velocity guys out there, I carry on occasion a Romanian Tokarev in 7.62×25 with 100grn JHP’s @ 1600fps. OUCH.
You can shuffle politicians around all you like, but the offending laws are still on the books. If the people of Colorado don’t elect individuals who can get those laws repealed, then it matters little as to which party the butts warming the seats belong to.
He didn’t get rich using his own money.
Oh my God its unbelievable the nonsense that keeps getting spouted on here about caliber and the pittsburg police are as dumb as some on here. There is always the story of the guy shot 100 x and still living! and the stopping power and the charts and the hit em with a .45 and they will die instantly and it will rip their entire arm off. Everyone is an expert and i would ask how many people on here #1 have shot someone ( yes i was in teh military ( not apples to apples for this argument) Im not going to call myself an expert at all BUT i have worked in the inner city Chicago trauma centers on and off for the last 20+ years and at the county morgue. Here a news flash for you all – as some have the intelligence to have talked about #1 its a handgun #2 its shot placement period- anything more and your looking at luck period. 9mm .40, .45 I dont want to here the BS arguments with modern ammunition they are so close its not worth the argument. Hit them in the T on their face so you have a brain stem hit and thats it period – over. Instantly done. Others will talk about large vessels and the heart and yes they will die but they still got a few seconds before they dont perfuse their noodle enough to stop. Thats it guys. Come to the morgue and spend a day( preferrably Monday after a hot weekend)