NRA Stand for Freedom (courtesy
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“It is a contradiction in political philosophy to promote Planned Parenthood while accusing gun rights advocates of being against life. Planned Parenthood is America’s abortion giant, and is responsible for tens of thousands of deaths every single year. The NRA, by contrast, does not advocate gun violence or promote a culture of death. In fact, the NRA is the nation’s largest gun safety advocacy organization, and provides excellent gun safety training resources to all ages. The contrast to Planned Parenthood could not be clearer.” Josh Kimbrell, The NRA Is Not Pro-Death, Planned Parenthood Is [via]

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  1. If one is to “Stand for Freedom”, as per the graphic on top of the story, it seems to me one should be both pro-gun rights and pro-abortion rights.

    • Pro gun and pro death. They do coincide.
      Freedom is choice. That aborted baby didn’t have a choice to be killed. Everyone who handles a firearm makes a choice to fire the bullet that can potentially kill.

      • Things must be getting pretty desperate out there if the flags of the NRA and planned Parenthood are at full wave. Trump is the porn star president and no doubt has plenty of abortions in his sperm’s wake

        Next we’ll be bashing each other’s heads in over whose flag lapel pin is the biggest. Nothing good is about to happen very fast.

    • Abortion is the taking of innocent life for no other reason than convenience. Who has the right to kill innocent life? Do you? I don’t. The NRA has never advocated the killing of innocents, on the contrary, they have promoted the protection of innocent life from those who are apathetic to life.

    • This is just another of life’s conundrums. To be pro abortion and pro gun.
      Just as I believe I have no right to tell a women how to do anything with her body. No one has any right to interfere with my right and ownership of guns

      • It’s not a conundrum unless you’re not paying attention. Don’t pretend for an effing second like it’s a ‘new question’. Don’t pretend that humans haven’t already hashed this out over the entirety of our past existence.

        It’s a matter of Societal Agreement. I agree to let you get along in life and eek out what you need, and you agree to let me to, OR WE DON’T.

        There has to be an (assumed) ‘reason’ to do so, without asking, or our whole existence gets eaten up by hashing that out. We both have to care about a “tomorrow”, however, or it can only be assumed that, we’ll likely hash out our common struggle today. I have to care about your tomorrow, and the tomorrows of your offspring, you have to exhibit like care for mine.

        A woman who doesn’t care about her own child, can’t be assumed to give a flying F about anyone else.

        “[I]t cannot be said, that a woman can ignore or discard the societal agreement she has formed with a person of her invitation [her child], but maintain or value the societal agreement she maintains with the Author, or another. It is no small matter to say that the life [by handicap] of an individual entered into societal agreement [by default/proxy] is meaningless, yet that of another is valued. Ergo, if you want to chuck this ‘supposed’ small part of our agreement, the Author might be willing to chuck the rest.” [J.M. Thomas R., TERMS, 2012, Pg. 69]

        • Who is this Thomas guy? From time to time I see thought provoking quotes attributed to him, but a google search turns up nothing.

      • Jay, like you I am not an advocate of anti-abortion laws, but I do posit that it is not what a woman does with her body that is the issue but rather what she does with a fetus’s body that is. I suspect that it is indeed murder, but for various reasons that I don’t want to spend hours discussing here I won’t go to war with other people over it. The “what a woman does with her body” is a not so subtle misdirection. I think that even saying it, is promoting the lie that it is. “I don’t believe a fetus is a human life” is the only ethical argument you can make in favor of “abortion rights”.

        • Though, I have always thought that “Pro-Choice” marches should adopt a version of Tubthumping as their chant. “I get knocked up” (imitates doggy style). “Then I abort again” (makes like reaching into crotch and then flinging the stuff away). “You are never gonna keep me down” (shakes fist) Repeat.

        • A fetus is NOT a separate human life until it can survive on its own outside the womb. That gives us a scientific cutoff date for ethical abortion, but neither side wants to admit that because it’s all party politics. The abortion issue is in no way relative to the RKBA, which should only be restricted at indiscriminate weapons such as bombs.

        • —“I don’t believe a fetus is a human life” is the only ethical argument you can make in favor of “abortion rights”.—

          How about this one:

          A fetus is a human life, and like any human, it does not have the right to use someone else’s organs and tissues without the consent of the person who owns them.

          No one has to donate blood or organs if they don’t want to, even if people die on waiting lists. If someone dies for want of a kidney and you could have donated, you did not murder them. It was your kidney to do with as you choose. The government doesn’t own your kidney and doesn’t get to tell you what to do with it.

          When pregnant, a woman’s uterus, lungs, liver, kidneys, pancreas, digestive track, etc. are all co-opted by the fetus. It’s usually temporary, but sometimes the organs are permanently changed or damaged by the interaction. I think that level of use requires ongoing consent.

          If you are for the government banning abortion, you are for the government having the power to tell American citizens that they do not own their kidneys, lungs, livers, pancreases, uteruses, genitals, etc. and it is for the government to decide who you have to share your organs with. And if you lose your job, your house, your life, if you can’t feed the children you already have, if you wind up with tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical bills, if you have chronic nerve pain or epidural headaches that no drug will relieve for years afterward, that’s okay, it’s just a little inconvenience.

        • anonymoose – Your starting point for human life is as arbitrary as any other. That it is a very popular one among pro-choice advocates doesn’t make it any less so. What if it could survive in simulated womb? Some born people can’t live without extensive machine support – are they not alive and human? My choice of the arbitrary points where life begins is when the fetus might possibly be conscious.

        • Branwyn – I am only saying that if something is not alive and not human then homicide is not possible. I am not saying that fetuses do not meet those criteria but rather that I think that is the only possibly reasonable path to not calling abortion murder. It is very problematic position to take but then again conception is as arbitrary a beginning point for human life as any other.

        • Branwyn – I have considered that one, but with it the fact remains that you could be terminating a human life and a life that the mother and father put in a state of dependence on the mothers biological support. A person is responsible for the life of their child after birth, isn’t it a bit arbitrary to say they are not before birth? I consider it to still be murder even if possibly justifiable – to save the mother’s life. It however, I concede, is still one of the reasons that I am not willing to go to war over the issue.

        • Joe R. – claiming that a single cell is a human simply because it has human DNA isn’t science.

        • You’re right. It’s mostly a miracle, so it’s ‘also science’.

          Either way, you can’t produce factual evidence that would prove that I’m wrong.

        • The (a) woman is UNIQUELY BURDONED with the OUTCOMES of sexual intercourse, BUT MUTUALLY AWARE of the possible (if not likely) outcomes of sexual intercourse.

          Either way, Society requires PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY WITH AFORETHOUGHT, no part of such human pairing is EVER suited to “ANYTHING GOES”.

        • Let’s ban pre marital sex. For the children.

          We castrate any males having sex out of sanctioned marriage and tie the tubes of any female.

          Fair enough?

          I do not support abortion. Except for the retroactive type.

          But the woman is not the only one involved in making a baby.

    • Pro-gun is to prevent murder whereas pro-abortion is to cause murder.The baby is a separate human being being supported by the mother’s body until it is born. The placenta is there to keep the mother’s body from rejecting the foreign tissues of the baby. If the baby was part of the mothers body this would be unnecessary. God says in the Bible that if you cause a pregnant woman’s baby to die then it’s a life for a life in Exodus 21:22-25. I’m a former atheist but then God showed me the error in my thinking. Consider that if there is a God(I’m certain of that), there will be consequences to those who murder babies in the womb or even approve of it.

    • Being pro-2A is not by any stretch of imagination include being pro-murder. The only way being pro-abortion can not be pro-murder is through ignorance of prenatal development and genetics. If the child is human it deserves all the rights and privileges as the rest of us. If governments do not exist to protect the rights of the weakest in society (and often they don’t), those governments are illegitimate. Seems simple enough to me.

    • The pro choice people believe that when a doctor and a woman discuss an abortion, there are two people in the room. The pro life people believe that there are three.

      The underlying question was posed to both candidates during the 2008 election. “At what point does a human life begin receiving protection from the state?” Different people have different views on this. McCain answered conception. Obama dodged the question with a joke, “above my pay grade” or something. In contrast, on the Senate floor, California’s Senator Boxer said something about when a mother brings her child home from the hospital.

      Most advanced western countries put the number at around 20 weeks. America’s federal policy is something of an outlier. 7 countries fall into our category.

      • Most of the countries in Europe that the left tries so hard to espouse have abortion bans after 12 weeks. And the polling here show that around 3/4 of the population think that abortion should be banned after the first trimester (13 weeks).

    • Why do pro death Libertarians, Liberals and the Left support government funded abortions???
      Why can’t private citizens pay for them out of their own pocket????

      It seems there are many people who call themselves Libertarians, Liberals, and the left, who want to get involved in the private sexual affairs and private decisions of strangers.

    • Yes this is right. I don’t personally support abortion but others do. It is their choice.

      Both help fight crime.

  2. The anti gun crowd always screams “if it saves just one life”. What about the 55 million dead babies we’ve allowed killed through abortion?

    It always seems to me that the side who wants to take away our gun rights are the very same people who would fight to the death for abortion rights.

  3. I really wish people would stop making this ridiculous comparison. It only serves to further the Bible thumping gun clinging right winger stereotype and turns off any abortion proponent who may actually appreciate the 2A.

    There are so many other, more obvious and less divisive, contradictions found among the anti’s that dipping into the abortion well is just not worth it.

    • Dear Mr. “Shire-man”,

      You said: “Bible thumping gun clinging right winger stereotype”.

      Abortion can be demonstrated, rationally and scientifically, to be the murder of an innocent human person. No Bible required.

      • Yes, I happen to be agnostic, but I cannot condone the killing of an innocent life out of convenience, which is absolutely why most abortions are performed (especially by Planned Parenthood). In this day in age, the amount performed out of the need to save the mother’s life are minute in comparison.

        • Bryan1980,

          “In this day in age, the amount performed out of the need to save the mother’s life are minute in comparison.”

          You are correct.

          And in such rare instances, the RIGHTEOUS thing to do is deliver the baby (either through induced natural birth or Cesarean section) and exhaust all reasonable means to save the life of the baby.

          I cannot think of any circumstance where it is ever RIGHTEOUS to mutilate the unborn baby and remove it in chunks or through a vacuum tube.

  4. Govt can’t save unborn babies without going fascist on women. Let women settle this with gods and keep the govt out of it.

    • To my knowledge nobody is proposing punishing women for getting abortions, only the doctors who perform them. So wouldn’t that be more like going fascist on doctors?

    • If you take away the effing made up out of whole-cloth “right” to an abortion (except when continued carriage TRULY risks the life of the mother) (and in cases of rape or incest BECAUSE SOCIETY CANNOT BE MAINTAINED IF IT ALSO FORCES YOU TO CARRY THE UNINTENDED CHILDREN OF OTHERS), that’s not facism. You can still get an abortion, but you can be labeled a murderer because you didn’t give a large enough fV<K (pun intended) TO HAVE THE REQUISITE SELF-CONTROL AND PERSONAL RESPONSIBLITY for taking part in an act that CREATES A NEW HUMAN BEING WITH GREATER FREQUENCY AND RELIABILTIY THAN ANY OTHER WAY ATTEMPTED BY MAN (by a multiple of 10x).

    • Kilson Wombat,

      “Govt can’t save unborn babies without going fascist on women. Let women settle this with gods and keep the govt out of it.”

      Is our government going fascist on John Q. Serial Killer when government sets out to stop (arrest, convict, and imprison) him? Should we let John Q. Serial Killer settle his actions with gods and keep government out of it?

  5. I used to be pro-gun rights and pro-abortion rights, then I finally understood that the right to keep and bear Arms is a natural right to defend and preserve one’s life and liberty, but the right to abort (aka terminate another Human’s life) is not a right at all. It is, rather, an adjudicated permission to kill someone else because you made a bad decision in the heat of a moment (in most cases).

  6. ‘Planned Parenthood is… responsible for tens of thousands of deaths every single year.’

    Actually they kill over 300,000 people every year, so ‘hundreds of thousands of deaths’ would be much more accurate.

  7. Yup…”do as I say and believe as I or suffer the consequence”…true freedom right there.
    We don’t need people’s religious beliefs to control our personal lives – its a fact that the vast majority of those who seek to eliminate a persons private choice to terminate a pregnancy believe in organized religion. The same groups that oppose any termination of any pregnancy today are the same backers 50 years ago opposed sexual education in schools and keeping any form of birth control from the masses. You don’t want an abortion then dont get one – there will be plenty of other babies born every hour in the world that will be desperate for you to seek out and go forth and care for (won’t happen) Every time this subject comes up on TTAG the same posters hammer all who dare not believe in Christianity of Judaism. So sad.

    • “the same backers 50 years ago opposed sexual education in schools ” WEREN’T PUSHING RELIGION STUPID. They were pushing PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS !

      You’re likely an ass that would march to end texting while driving, but don’t give a flying F that more than 2,000 x a day (IN AMERICA ONLY) some kid, THAT COULDA BEEN YOU, is getting a pair of scissors shoved into its brain stem, and will later be dissected and sold for food, medicine, cosmetics, and experimentation.

      W H A T

      T H E

      F U C K

      R E L I G I O N

      P U S H E S

      T H A T


      Oh yeah, satanism.


      • You sir must be a real pleasure to live with…you probably should not own firearms with a temper like that. Go forth a be angry…that’s clearly how you react to those who don’t live by your rules. Mad, angry, bitter – you tell us how it is

    • You don’t have to follow Christianity or Judaism to be opposed to infanticide. But you do have to have a willful ignorance of prenatal development and genetics to deny the humanity of a human fetus.

    • “there will be plenty of other babies born every hour in the world that will be desperate for you to seek out and go forth and care for (won’t happen) ”
      Care to make a wager on that, cause I’ve got a daughter who was born in eastern Europe that begs to differ. And there are quite a few more parents with adopted children in my church.
      And as was stated above, abortion isn’t a religious issue. The bible never even talks about it (to my knowledge). The question is one of basic morality, “is it acceptable to end an innocent person’s life for your own convenience?” After that, you have to ask “is a fetus human?” Science says yes. “When does life begin?” When someone is pronounced deceased, we check for a pulse, to see if the heart is beating, so it should be safe to assume that once a fetus has a heartbeat, it is alive (at about 6 weeks). See, no bible thumping needed, you just have to be anti-murder.

      • Disagree…it’s a question of what is a human being vs a potential human being. Nobody has any business telling anyone else what to do with a collection of their own cells in their own body that are simply potential human beings. I guess we disagree…

    • Oh look, noob troll who doesn’t understand that killing a human being for convenience is wrong regardless of “religion”.

    • – Said the stupid worthless fetus.

      YOUR MOTHER OWES US AN ABORTION STUPID. Help her out, go impregnate her.

    • Peter,

      They are human beings and ALL human life is sacred and valuable. That is why I care — and why you should care as well.

      All great atrocities start with some group of people labeling another group of people as “unimportant” or “non-human”. The word “fetus” is one such label.

    • Exactly Peter, this is just another example of the 2A “community” dividing itself for no real reason. If it’s a human being then let it live on its own. If it can’t you’re asking a woman to be unwilling life support. The whole argument is nonsense.

  8. It is illustrative of the demoncrat party that Illinois candidate for governor billionaire Jay Pritzger is “proudly” endorsed by Planned Parenthood. And “pro-choice” pac. Fat Jay is also rabidly anti-2A. And the odds-on favorite for governor. And Jewish…does he know Margaret Sanger et all were pro-Nazi and pro-Jewish extermination?!?

  9. This sounds great in the echo chamber, but I don’t see it changing anyone’s mind. No one on the left is going to start seeing abortion as the equivalent of gun violence, they don’t see the world through that lens. Gun rights have nothing to do with the abortion debate, so it’s counterproductive to alienate pro-choicers who may support 2A.

    • Push them for some “common sense” human life protection with regards to their murder mills and see how far you get.

      Just because you can’t convince them doesn’t mean pointing out their hypocrisy is pointless.

        • Why wouldn’t you? Are you trying to get your pro-gun candidates as many votes as possible to win elections or not?

          The whole the enemy of my enemy is my friend thing doesn’t ring a bell?

        • (This was supposed to go here)

          The “2nd Amendment” is more connected to protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than you are (connected in any way) to guns.

        • Steriodude, I’m happy to vote pro-life/pro-gun, but I’m not going to start telling pro-choicers that they aren’t welcome in the gun community. I expect there are a lot of center-left people out there that would like to get into guns but they never go to the range/gun shop because it is perceived to be an intimidating environment for someone who doesn’t fit the stereotype. 2A generally isn’t valued by much of our society because so many people have no personal connection to it and they believe it is an out dated relic. The more time people spend with guns the more they start to develop an appreciation for the 2A. Most people I know who have gotten involved in firearms become more conservative over time, which could sway things like the pro-life debate. So no, I don’t agree with using pro-gun platforms to alienate masses of potential 2A supporters. Blog posts and bumper stickers don’t change peoples minds, personal connections do, and the shooting range is a great place to make personal connections.

  10. We need more abortions in this society. It is a scientifically proven fact that the greater the number of abortions, the lower the number of defensive gun uses (because the criminals are aborted before they can even waste taxpayer resources at schools and then commit violent crimes against people).

    • There is a distinct correlation between the passing of Roe v Wade and the substantial decrease in crime through the 90s. One could argue that abounds prevented more crime than any amount of guns did.

      Whether you like it or not, the Supreme Court made a ruling on an abortion. They are smarter than both I and anyone else on here, so I’ll defer to their ruling. And for all this praise and valuation of what it’s basically a petri dish of cells, something that is so sacred, where does all this support go once they are born? Do the same Republicans who treat life as precious when they’re trying to control a women’s life, also go out of their way to cut away at the social services that support those babies and children? That’s right, the pro life movement is all about protecting a “life” but couldn’t be bothered to care about it once it’s actually walking and talking.

      People should be proud that women have the strength to go through what can’t be a pleasant experience, emotionally. Every case is different but to argue that each case is just some floozy who preferred to have unprotected sex, is just ignorant. Most women have an abortion because they made a mistake or aren’t prepared to be a mother. They could be too young, too poor, too immature, or any other reason. To pretend they should be without fault, sexually, is ridiculous because you aren’t without fault either. And for all you religious zealots, does good and the Bible not tell you to love everyone and accept everyone, whether they be poor, diseased or have had an abortion? Isn’t it up to God to judge and not you?

      Rob, pro gun, pro choice, pro freedom from government intrusion into another’s life

      • Your going to get yelled at for being anti-Groupthink…love they lord, hate thy gay, force others into successful pregnancy until all comply….submit.

      • Dude, if you’re not repulsed by abortion in its physicality, to want to try to prevent AT LEAST THE NEED FOR future ones, then you are seriously F’d up.

      • Are you feeling okay Rob? You’ve made a whole lot of baffling comments there. You really think that as long as 5 people (out of a possible 9) agree it makes it makes something right or wrong?

        So if 5 of those 9 people decide that you can’t own a gun anymore you’re just going to defer to their wisdom?

      • There is not a correlation between Roe v Wade and crime statistics. The homicide rate peaked about 20 years afterward. The abortion rate has been declining for the last 35 years (about half as many today as then), yet the crime rate continued to go down instead of up. Certain states already had legal abortion before the decision, New York being one of them. Therefore the drop in crime in NYC cannot be attributed in any way to the decision, but most likely the implementation of the fascist Stop and Frisk law. There’s just no correlation there.

        The Supreme Court also ruled that black people were not human and therefore couldn’t sue for their freedom any more than a horse could sue it’s owner for it’s freedom. Were they smarter than us then? In fact in the majority decision Justice Blackmun clearly stated that if science could establish the humanity of the (human) fetus that it would void their decision. If you weren’t willfully ignorant of prenatal development you would agree that the decision should be void.

        If punishment for killing a human fetus should be left to God, why shouldn’t killing of adults be too? What about a toddler? If I kill a toddler should my punishment be left up to God?

    • Not here obviously…Joe R Angry Bitter Groupthink rules here. I hope Robert Farago is getting a laugh at this, same every time this subject (pro-2A = anti right to chose) is brought up – oy vey

      • All caps ain’t rage, (like it or not) it speaks directly to your brain.

        The topic does deserve a goodly amount of getting one’s “blood up”. However, my blood pressure is pretty low and steady. Don’t hear a moan out of you at the hysterical shouting and marches against (the much less fatal) gun rights.

        Since when is pushing abortion (shit pops up every century since Adam and Eve walked out of the garden and HUMANS have slapped that shit down as bad and wrong) not broke d1<k groupthink support of satan?

    • Considering they’re all fundamentally connected, good luck finding somewhere people in large number hold contrarian views that match up with your specific cognitive dissonance. However, the internet’s a big place so you might luck out.

  11. one million babies a year

    every year

    2700 a day

    every day

    for decades

    if the us army invaded another country

    and did to the women there

    what planned parenthood does to women here

    it would be called war crimes

    it would be called crimes against humanity

    there would be tribunals

    people would hang

    they kill babies

    and carve their bodies up into tiny little pieces to sell off to the highest bidder

    and throw whats left over into the landfill

    or into the same trash that gets burned at power plants

    abortion does in about a week what guns do in an entire year in this country

    but somehow the nra is evil

  12. The same people who support abortion on demand, are the same ones who want your guns.

    The same people who support welfare for single mothers, are the same ones who support “gun free zone” housing projects.

    They have publicly stated they are against the traditional family. And they support the Welfare Industrial Complex to destroy it.

    The same people who support gay marriage but not heterosexual marriage are the same ones who want your guns.

  13. The “2nd Amendment” is more connected to protecting life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than you are (connected in any way) to guns.

  14. It’s hard for me to buy the concept that a zygote is a human life? It doesn’t think, doesn’t feel, doesn’t event react to stimulus. It’s just a cell cluster.

    If we’re going to be that hard line about it, we should outlaw fertility clinics. They discard countless human embryos.

    I’ll also never understand the right wing position of making damn sure every fertilized egg is born, and throwing them under the poverty bus immediately because, “muh tax dollars, harumph harumph!”

    I’m inclined to believe that the whole, every life is precious, line is bullshit as it’s usually delivered by some of the most hate filled people I’ve ever seen. I’m inclined to believe that mostly, they’re against abortion because an unwanted baby is a perfect biblical punishment for what they consider immoral behavior.

    After all, here in America, we punish mistakes forever as God intended.

    • Yeah… because clearly, there are no other choices than killing an innocent human being. Because, clearly, adoption is not a thing. The way I see it, abortion should have the exact same legal requirements as lawful self-defense.

      • Putting a child up for adoption is no guarantee of adoption, especially if you flood the market, so to speak, by banning abortion. And then who pays for all the orphanages? It can’t be us tax payers. After all, we weren’t the ones who had the unwanted child, why should we have to pay for it?

        Also, again, an unthinking, unfeeling, cell cluster is not a person. Just because it might turn into a person (No guarantee there regardless of abortion status) doesn’t make it a person.

        • The problem with adoption is not lack of foster parents, it’s the stupidity of the paperwork involved. A friend of mine had to wait SIX MONTHS to adopt a kid from their own distant relative who happened to die.

  15. Female here: I feel compelled to weigh in since this is mostly a male audience.

    As much as I would prefer an amazing adoption system and a world without abortion (except in cases of rape and incest), I do not think it’s possible. Personally I could not have an abortion, but I’m also responsible enough to practice safe sex. The reality is most of society’s problems are from dumb people have kids too young. Those boys become criminals and the woman become strippers/getting mixed up with bad guys. I am pro-choice, because reality dictates the overwhelming majority of people have premarital sex and the taxpayers carry the cost. It doesn’t matter if it’s getting shot at a liquor store, paying welfare for a 19 year old single mom(child) with three kids, or imprisoning gang bangers. We pay the cost. As long as the child cannot survive on it’s own (18-20 weeks), I think the decision should be left with the mother. Once the fetus is viable outside of the womb it is a human and protected by the 14th amendment. I don’t buy the argument that having an abortion 9 weeks into pregnancy is akin to murder. There’s very little you could do to convince me otherwise.

    Can I also say TTAG commenting about non-2A social issues with lots of “energy” around them isn’t the best way to appeal to someone who is new to guns or maybe wants to simply learn more with all of the gun related news. It’s even less helpful if you’re trying to capture a younger, female audience.

    Anyways, death to the NFA, GCA, and keep fighting for nationwide constitutional carry.

    • Ya, if not even the need to prevent future abortions appeals to you, you’re part of the problem.

      What would you want to talk about guns for, then?

      2A appeal don’t mean sh_t if we can’t interest you in human life, especially at its most innocent.

    • The question (both moral and legal) is what is a person.

      The viability=human life thing is a sophist misdirect. “There’s very little you could do to convince me otherwise.”

      Every argument for abortion at this or that stage that amounts to “fetuses are not people because X” can be applied to people outside of the womb. In the viability case, just think of people on life support. They are not “viable.” If I was to walk into a hospital a do a mag dump on one of them, it would be murder.

      • You can’t shoot someone who is brain dead, but the decision can be made to take them off life support.

        In all likelihood, no group is going to completely get their way on abortion or guns. The NFA is probably not going anywhere, nor will there be a complete gun ban.

        The American public likely won’t stomach or stand for late term abortions, but only a loud minority of Christian fundamentalists give a crap about a non-sentient almost microscopic cell cluster (should fertility clinics be banned because of all the fertilized embryos they discard?).

        If a democracy is working, no one is fully happy and getting their way.

        • “You can’t shoot someone who is brain dead, but the decision can be made to take them off life support.” Exactly, you can’t kill them because we’re not allowed to murder people. You can, however, simply let nature take its course.

          I’m assuming you mean sapient and not sentient, as a dog is sentient. There are many people alive to day I would argue are not sapient. Like the brain dead and people who vote Democrat. (The last part is a slight exaggeration).

          I agree with your conclusion (The NFA is probably not going anywhere, nor will there be a complete gun ban), but not your facts or characterizations.

  16. Abortion is the most evil kind of human sacrifice because the victim is the most innocent and defenseless person in any society. The victim has done absolutely nothing wrong and can do nothing to defend him/herself, not even cry out. The victim is sacrificed on the alter of his/her own mother’s womb, which should be the safest place on earth. The vast majority of the time the sacrifice takes place out of superficial convenience of the mother, who’s most responsible for protecting and caring for the victim.

    You better be careful. In this day and age abortion is a very special protected activity required by almost all nations in the world who don’t have some other form of human sacrifice. All nations, empires, kingdoms, etc. consecrated to satan require human sacrifice.


    Luke 1:41-50
    When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said, “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb. And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Blessed are you who believed that what was spoken to you by the Lord would be fulfilled.”
    And Mary said:
    “My soul proclaims the greatness of the Lord;
    my spirit rejoices in God my savior.
    For he has looked upon his handmaid’s lowliness;
    behold, from now on will all ages call me blessed.
    The Mighty One has done great things for me,
    and holy is his name.
    His mercy is from age to age
    to those who fear him.”

    I will continue to clinge to my bible, rosary, and gun; and protect myself spiritually and physically.


      Good thing I live in America where your religious extremism doesn’t determine the law of the land.

      If you believe the bible should dictate the laws of this country, you’re no different than Muslims condoning Sharia law on another.

      • If you believe that doctors, lawyers, or governmental representatives get to decide when life begins, you’re f’d in the head (probably through the left eye).

        • If you can’t take the word of a doctor, who is far more educated on the body and reproductive process than anyone who is not a doctor, then you are a lost cause.

          Let me guess, you don’t believe scientists who have spent their entire career studying the earth’s climate either? You probably know more than they do and don’t believe in climate change because it was really cold one day, so there’s no global warming.

        • Ya, obviously, the doctor crap hits really close to home for you. Like I said, if you make your $$$ off of them, you should disclose it, it’ll cause less wonder at your arguments.

          Know this, no ‘doctor’ or ‘scientist’ determines anything that hasn’t already been LONG DETERMINED, they merely come-upon the information.

          And NO, climate-change is a communist ploy. 1,100 active volcanoes around the world at any one time. The first 5 minutes of any (even minor) eruption AND EVERY FIVE MINUTES OF ERUPTION THEREAFTER, releases 200 x more heat-energy/toxic gasses/heavy metals/Carbon-monoxide and Carbon-dioxide THAN ALL OF COMBINED HUMAN ACTIVITY ON THE PLANET (ever) PUT TOGETHER (there is a volcano in Indonesia that belches Sulfur-Dioxide, and other Sulfur compounds 24/7/365). If you mean to tell me that all of these volcanoes would be in ‘more perfect’ balance with the planet EXCEPT FOR THE PRESENCE OF MANKIND, then you are a broke-(D)1<K stupid MF.

          We barely have a toe-hold on this planet, and mother nature is working diligently every second to turn us into fertilizer.

        • Rob, the reason I don’t believe in anthropogenic climate change is that I’m an engineer and the data they present does not support the conclusions they draw. Being an “expert” does not make me automatically take your word for anything.

      • Democrats 1865: A negro is not a human being.
        Democrats 1965: A fetus is not a human being.

        Notice a pattern?

  17. Throwing the red flag, here.

    Planned Parenthood IS about life. About not having a woman’s life inconvenienced by the natural result of her actions. It is about not having to give up the freedom of the woman’s life in order to bear the pain, discomfort, disruption that bringing a baby to full term entails. PP is about preserving the lifestyle of the mother. PP is about not wrecking a woman’s life by making her give up friends and career. PP is about promoting life that isn’t too hard. About promoting life that doesn’t include wrongful birth. About letting a woman live her life without a constant reminder of the rape or incest episode. About promoting life without fear of too many children borne into circumstances that make life like really hard.

    PP is about life, just visit a clinic and learn how women are living the lives they choose, not one burdened with responsibility. PP is about a real, walking, talking, feeling life, not a tribal myth about body tissue that might, maybe, one day, somehow become another walking, talking feeling life.

  18. The only thing I have ever read that turned my stomach, and I’ve read accounts of all sorts of depravities, is an appellate description of the process of partial birth abortion.

  19. Abortion isn’t death, they’re not citizens until they pop out of the vagina as a viable human.


    • The question is not if they are citizens, the question is if they are human lives worthy of protection. The moral choice is to draw that line as broadly as possible. Why? Because being wrong and moderately inconveniencing somebody is far better than being wrong and murdering someone.

      • If constitutional rights were simply a question of citizenship, immigrants, legal and otherwise, would have no constitutional rights and therefore could be exempted from the protection of criminal statutes (equal protection of the law).

        • I love how the left claims that foreign nationals on foreign soil apparently have constitutional rights while baby’s don’t.

    • You mean I can go out and kill all the foreign nationals I want with impunity from the law!?! Even if they’ve got a green card?

    • Abortion isn’t death, they’re not citizens until they pop out of the vagina as a viable human

      and…..that’s why, if a perp’ shoots a pregnant woman, s(he) can be charged with A DOUBLE MURDER !


  20. I’ll chime in briefly just to point out the following: this is a great way to divide and conquer. This self-inflicted, emotionally-inflamed discourse is only going to serve the needs of those seeking to weaken POTG. Congratulations—(almost) everyone here has bought into the “you’re either with us or against us” mentality. My personal opinions on abortion are mine and separate from my opinions about the RTKBA/2A. I’d recommend this for future discussions within TTAG.

      • Why push your allies away for an unrelated topic? That is exactly what Bloomberg et al want. Abortion and the 2A are separate issues. Lumping them together simultaneously polarizes both issues and reinforces the D/R divide. We need to convince fence-sitters to listen to reason instead of feelings. Insulting people just pushes them further in to their feelings and further back in to their echo chamber. If you can’t be respectful with someone who disagrees with you, you’re probably not going to convince them that the preservation of gun rights is righteous.

        • ” Insulting people just pushes them further in to their feelings and further back in to their echo chamber. If you can’t be respectful with someone who disagrees with you, you’re probably not going to convince them that the preservation of gun rights is righteous.”

          Not insulting the opposition and middle ground squishes didn’t do much for our team, did it? War is messy. There are only two possible outcomes: win; lose. If you don’t win, you don’t win. In the vernacular, if you don’t win, you lose (gradation is irrelevant). A victory that does not annihilate the opposition is not a victory, but a respite between combatants.

          But on war, let me yield to a master, “War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse….A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.” – – JS Mill, 1806-1873. (English, no less).

          • Sam I am, in what world do you see our side, POTG, achieving an all out victory? That would only be possible if we can sway popular opinion. We aren’t going to sway popular opinion by excluding groups based on non gun rights issues.

            If you are talking about an all out conservative victory on all fronts, its not going to happen. Most of the republican politicians aren’t even conservatives.

            • An all out victory would be sufficient voters and voter influence to cause politicians to fear for their perquisites if they even breathe gun control. Don’t care if the entire electorate is pro-gun. Being able to always defeat any anti-gun person or group is close enough to annihilation. So, if we can’t/don’t want to “win ’em over”, how does this work?

              Ensure the children, grandchildren and grand grands are properly educated and oriented as to our founding and constitution. Ensure all the offspring of POTG will consider themselves vulnerable to political attack if they ever, for a moment, relax their vigilance over maintaining our “natural, civil and human right” to defend ourselves with firearms. Whether against human, government or wild animals. It is curious that the idea of “grow our own” is not looked at as a viable offense.

              • If the “demographics” you note are all anti-gun, then head to the range, run out your ammo stash, sit back and light up a Camel; game is already over, why are we even talking about it?

  21. Abortion is the same as hiring a hit man to kill someone for you. No human can survive in this world without help until they’re somewhere around 10 or older. Usually much older. Why would it be any different in the womb? It is a human that needs support. Killing babies in the womb is child sacrifice on the altar of convenience. When women are shown the truth by seeing a sonogram of their baby they usually don’t go through with it. Their baby. Not their fetus. It cuts through the lies quickly. Additionally, abortion providers/hit men (I can’t call someone a doctor when they violate their Hypocratic oath nearly every day) make a ton of $. If they’re so concerned about the woman why don’t they do it for free or at a serious discount? They’re in it for the $ only.

  22. I didn’t have time to read all the comments but, how about this? We’ve been teaching sex-ed in this country for over 50 years. Don’t want a kid, use a contraceptive of some kind! Don’t have unprotected sex! And in NO WAY does the wanton abortion slaughter of nearly 80,000 per year the unborn compare in any way to RKBA! That’s my opinion and we all know every has one just like we have an asshole. Don’t like it, tough sh*t…it’s mine and I’m keeping it!

  23. the “sub-text”of what is being said in the main article is, quite simply, this:
    ‘liberals’ etc. are all for ‘pro-choice’/relative morality/’diversity’ etc. but, when it comes to guns, they want to go all KGB on yr ass……
    in effect: that makes them a bunch of mewling HYPOCRITES;
    there-fore: any-thing that they say is, pretty much, totally invalid and can be safely ignored…..

  24. Look at it this way…
    If we found a fetus on another planet it would be hailed as LIFE…but not here on Earth…it is just a clump of cells.
    Go figure.

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