According to Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, “You are entitled to your own opinion, but you are not entitled to your own facts.” I’ve applied this admonition to anti-gun advocates many times over the years; lobbyists who are to spin, obfuscation, distortion and outright fabrication what Fillippa Hamilton is to glowering. This time it’s TTAG’s resident anti Mikeb302000 who’s ignoring reality and, how do I put this delicately, making shit up. His latest rectally extracted “fact” arrived as a comment on David Liberman’s DGU Week In Review posted last Saturday . . .
You would need 10 a week to reach my guess of 500 [defensive gun uses] a year. You can’t even do that.
I know, I know the brandishing ones don’t make the news. So maybe you can get to 50o….
You see where I’m going with this, right? DGUs are rare. They’re fewer than gun accidents, which you guys love to disparage as rarer than hens’ teeth. Compared to gun misuse, the real legitimate DGUs are about 1 to 100 or 200.
Disarmingly, Mikeb readily admits his estimate of the total defensive gun uses (DGU) in the United States is “merely” a guess.
In fact, his misleading 500 DGUs pseudo-statistic is equal to less than one percent of the number of DGUs accepted by America’s most active anti-gun group: The Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
The Brady Campaign accepts the National Crime Victimization Surveys’ numbers, which place the number of annual DGUs at somewhere between about 60k and 110k. It’s an extremely conservative estimate.
According to a study performed in the early 1990s by Drs. Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz, there are between 2.1 and 2.5 million DGUs annually.
Dr. Kleck is no right-wing shill. As the good doctor disclosed in his 1997 book Targeting Guns (quote from GunCite.com):
The author is a member of the American Civil Liberties Union, Amnesty International USA, Independent Action, Democrats 2000, and Common Cause, among other politically liberal organizations He is a lifelong registered Democrat, as well as a contributor to liberal Democratic candidates. He is not now, nor has he ever been, a member of, or contributor to, the National Rifle Association, Handgun Control, Inc. nor any other advocacy organization, nor has he received funding for research from any such organization.
There are, of course, other sources for statistics on the number of DGUs.
Shortly after Kleck and Gert released their study, the Clinton Department of Justice commissioned their own study on the number of DGUs annually. That study was conducted by Drs. Philip Cook and Jens Ludwig, who both have a long record as very strong proponents of very strict gun control. It concluded that there were 1.46m DGUs per year.
Bottom line: Mikeb’s guess of 500 DGUs a year is completely divorced from reality, by several orders of magnitude.
Mikeb also claims that there are 100 to 200 criminal gun uses (CGUs) for each DGU. Although he’s started with a completely bogus number for annual DGUs, let’s follow this through . . .
According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics’ Nonfatal firearm-related violent crimes table, there were 326,090 “firearm incidents” in 2009. To avoid the “snapshot” problem, we’ll consider their firearm incident numbers from 1999 through 2009 (excluding 2006 for methodological reasons).
That gives us an average of 375,113.1 annual firearm incidents. Compared to the Cook-Ludwig numbers for defensive gun use, we arrive at an average of 3.89 DGUs per CGU. Not the other way around, and not 100 to 200 CGUs to DGUs.
Mikeb gets it exactly backwards, and then some. That said, quantifying the actual number of annual criminal gun uses is a tricky business. I prefer to look at firearm related homicides vs. lives saved by DGUs.
According to the CDC, between 1999 and 2010, gun-related homicides claimed the lives of 11,740 people per year.
Kleck and Gertz’s article Armed Resistance to Crime: The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun found that 15.7 percent of people involved in a DGU believed they “almost certainly” saved their life or someone else’s. Some 14.6 percent of respondents believed someone “probably would have” been killed if not for their DGU.
In the sake of argument, let’s assume that nine out of 10 of the “almost certainly” folks were wrong. Let’s also work with the idea that 99 out of 100 of the “probably saved a life” people were also incorrect.
Applying those deeply conservative metrics, at least 1.716 percent of the 1.46 million defensive gun uses saved a life. At the very minimum, defensive gun use saves at least 25,000 lives per year.
Here’s a fact for Mikeb and the antis to contemplate: for every criminal homicide with a firearm defensive gun use saved more than two lives.
Finally, addressing the question of fatal firearm accidents, Mikeb is correct: they’re as scarce as hens’ teeth. According to the CDC, there were 8,339 fatal firearm accidents between 1999 and 2010. That’s not per year, but total. The annual average: 695.
Would you like to compare that with other causes of fatal accidents, Mike? I assume not. When it comes to arguing facts, gun control advocates are unarmed. And dangerous.
“Never let facts get in the way of the truth.”
Or something like that.
Very nice!
-D
Well, if we’re going to go from the utilitarian argument, it doesn’t matter that much how many DGUs there are, although clearly 500 is a product of a biased mind. There is no way to measure how the mere possibility of defensive violence suppresses actual offensive violence
Here’s betting he’s saying the same shit in 2 weeks regardless. Putting the blinders on so you can accept an ego-derived conclusion is key to Democrat’s doctrine.
Please Levi, labels?? As a person who has VOTED for Republican candidates my whole life, the last thing I want to be called or labeled as is a “Republican”. Or for that matter a “Democrat”. Those that truly do fit those labels however are the true “zombies”. Case in point…..Timothy McVeigh was as ardent Republican. Nuff said.
Amen. I’m an American not an R or D. I punch the box when I vote for the prospective employee I think will do the best job. A political party is not part of my identity, and there are plenty of Dems’ who’ve voted for gun rights and Repubs who’ve voted against them.
I punch the box when I vote for the prospective employee I think will do the best job.
Do you really? Or do you simply hold to the view of voting for the lesser of two evils?
There is another way, you know….
Cue MikeB complaining about the article’s length, even though this one’s about half of Bruce’s average.
Yeah, it’s half the usual length, but there are enough numbers in there to make a mathematician dizzy.
Sorry I didn’t see this till now. I’ve been busy.
So, mikey#s, have any “facts” you would like to tell us about to refute even part of this post?
Or are you willfully going to keep on spouting lies, which you must know are lies because you have been refuted time and again by Bruce and others…
And here I was, clinging to the vain hope that an objective and meaningful discourse with the anti-gun people was possible. Instead it is the usual anti-gun modus operandi. MikeB, I am very disappointed, very disappointed indeed.
Two of us. I will change my handle!!
I’m as pro gun as anyone, but I’m also in a field that requires me to be up to date on the relevant literature. If I tried to make my case on something and repeatedly used the same 2 or 3 pieces of literature, all of which are years old, I’d get called out for it. Not saying the data is wrong, but seeing as kleck and the rest are still making the rounds speaking, I’d like to see them stay current with their data. continuously keeping up to date stats that back up the point would carry far more weight than doing it once and relying on it until the end of time. the older the data gets, the easier it is to dismiss, and the more you invite the critic to ask why such data isn’t being produced currently. Things like the DGU week in review and other blogs that keep track of DGU’s are a good start, but they don’t have the same power as true and honest research.
1. You used *that* word in your opening line.
2. Seeing as the U.S. population has increased since Kleck’s famous study, is there any reason to believe that the number of annual DGU’s has decreased?
You gonna fund a study that has returned the opposite results you were looking for twice already?
of course not. all I’m saying is I firmly believe that an honest and complete cost benefit analysis of guns would come out in our favor and cut through much of the rhetoric in the debate, so I never understand why folks on our side don’t fund it. I appreciate the difficulties in doing this, just saying I’d love to see it. as it is, I know what these articles are going to say and what they’re going to cite the second I start reading them. if the data is as strongly on our side as we all believe it is, we shouldn’t have difficulty repeatedly showing that.
Honestly… when it really comes down to it, who cares what the statistics say? We all know they’re on our side but does it really matter? If there were more accidental gun deaths than DGUs would you sell all your guns? Would you support gun control? Of course not.
I support the 2nd amendment because I have an innate, God-given right to defend myself and my family. That will never change, even if the numbers do.
LOL, it will show that the bad guys cost the public lots more, even using more conservative numbers based only on justifiable homicides, and not the DGU’s attached to criminals defending themselves from a criminal even though it is a legitimate self defense as even criminals have the right to do so.
Result is on the conservative side, just from justifiable homicides data, 216,000 people were defended, preventing 3,200 murders and over 38,000 injuries based on 15% of times firearm used a shot is fired and 15% of the time a shot hits its target then working from actual # of justifiable homicides and 2.5 people per household US Census (Mikeb doesnt allow for defense outside ones own home) and DGU’s save the public over $2.1 billion in medical costs. While the 92% of deaths by illegal use of a fiream committed by career criminals, gang members and suiciders cost the public over $4.48 bil in medical costs per year.
Thats using average emergency room cost & extended health care of $15,000 and $35,000, (referenced from Ludwig’s 2000, $100 billion cost to public study where he claimed people were willing to pay $1,000 for each household to stop violence “100 million per US Census” as what the cost to the public was, LOL, what a fool) and then an average median income of $49,000 per US Labor stats for deaths as the deaths do result in the loss of income and taxes for the family and the government, hence applicable for the first year.
Of course if one were to provide a reasonable average age of death by illegal firearm use, then one could use the average age of natural death to then calculate how many years of loss of income and loss of taxes such a murder cost the family and public in taxes, or the benefit.
Then again since the US cost for health care exceeds $2.4 trillion a year, that .18% (2/10ths of a percent) of the cost criminals put back onto the public by the act is rather a small drop in a bucket, making this part of the discussion a mountain out of a mole hill!
I agree. Relevant Data needs to be no more than 2-3 years old. Kleck and Gertz’s work is historically valuable (at ten plus years), but a little long in the tooth. I suppose finding funding for these kinds of Research Projects isn’t easy nowadays and have no idea what such a Project would cost.
To my mind the horror scenario would be to find-out things have shifted the other direction thus pulling the proverbial rug out from under us Pro RKBA folks. Additional Studies or updates to Kleck and Gertz’s work would help determine the demographic trends over time. We don’t know if they shift slowly or rapidly as the population grows and, from what we observe, private, legal gun ownership increases. It would be interesting to know, if possible, what the concomitant change in illegal gun ownership is, as well.
However, having some valid data that supports our point of view beats “making up s**t” any day.
Well, a problem with data is interpretation. Folks seeing causation where there is only actually correlation. For example there’s been a drop in crime as there has been an increase in states with shall issue carry. Causation or correlation? But the drop in crime could also lead to a drop in DGUs. (Used to be ~500K criminal uses of a firearm was the oft quoted figure). It would be difficul to sort out what the data means- DGUs could be dropping because of reduced criminal interactions that are a result of CCW dissuading confrontational type crimes.
Good points, all of which point to the need for more current research IMHO.
The anti’s will not fund such reasearch because of the high numbers against their agenda in the old research.
Speaking for myself as a firearms owner, I would not fund the research because my right to keep and bear arms is not dependent on anything but my existence.
Excellent article. Sadly, people with strong beliefs, on any side of an issue, will ALWAYS ignore the facts. Those with an open mind, willing to listen, understand, and even change their opinion/belief are few.
Calling MikeB… calling Mikeyb… anything to say about this?
…
…
Ah… thought not. Thanks for the humor, though. It’s always funny when liberals are exposed making stuff up.
Again with labels. Romney made stuff up during the debate last night. Does that make him a liberal? Making stuff up is not limited to one set if ideologies.
Sorry I was busy and didn’t see this one until now. Of course if Bruce had given the common courtesy of linking back to me I might have seen it immediately and been able to play along with you guys.
But, I think most of you prefer the echo chamber.
Pot calling the kettle black when your liberal bullshit is such bullshit it goes way beyond the next tier of liberal bullshit that is clearly espoused from a position of ignorance. Back on topic, It’s not an echo chamber when it’s facts and statistics being restated. I’m sorry you elect to live in a world where made-up bullshit is considered a credible counter-argument but the rest of us prefer to live in a rational world with evidence supporting our claims.
As an adjunct professor of Criminology and a professional who works in the field (Juvenile Justice related) Mike B makes me laugh at his unabashed ignorance of the actual rates of crime, how they are measured and how they are interpreted. I wonder if he has ever looked at a Uniform Crime Report or the Victimization Survey? Does he know what the Bureau of Justice Statistics is? He really is divorced from reality.
You’re right, MikeB is divorced from reality. USA reality. His current residence is in Italy. He’s not even in the USA, but an ex-pat telling us how to live in the USA, as many people on the left pontificate. So, he is in a country in worse economic shape than the USA, and believes that the gubmint can solve all and protect all. Of course Italy gave rise to Mussolini too. How’d that work out?
Gun-rights advocates point those out to him regularly on his site. His response? He calls the data “cherrypicking.”
The Straw Man is burning.
the roof is on fire 😀
“Burning Down The House”
Come on baby light my fire.
Thanks for a great post. Dissecting the numbers is going to be an important way to evaluate and reaffirm what we do as firearms owners. We also have to recognize the strengths, the weaknesses and also recognize what is NOT reported in statistics. Together a picture of an objective truth should develop, free of political influence.
For anyone that wants to argue numbers about *anything*, not just firearms, consider looking into this book. It’s a real eye opener. Let’s make sure us pro arms folks know more about how to interpret numbers better than the anti gunners.
http://www.amazon.com/Innumeracy-Mathematical-Illiteracy-Its-Consequences/dp/0809058405/
Mike, TTAG’s DGU weekly review is not meant to be exhaustive.
Typical Mike;useless drivel, no (factual) facts, and extremely delusioned.
He hasnt responded to anything in a while maybe he just realized THE TRUTH ABOUT GUNS lol
mikeb did make comments and post replies a few days ago. It was his usual loonie drivel. What I like the most about having mikeb comment at TTAG are that his irrational comments will be read by visitors who are neutral on the 2A issue or perhaps interested in simply learning more about the gun debate. The views of anti-gun mikeb and our replies to him become ideas for site visitors to consider.
Bruce, great post. Thanks.
No, he probably just found some other site that doesn’t have writers that are willing to do the legwork to prove the drivel he spews to be completely inaccurate.
We need an intelligent anti-gun commenter so we can have some real debate.
We also need a new and more amusing troll.
“intelligent anti-gun commenter” arent those traits mutually exclusive?
The intelligent anti-gun commenters are the ones who dont waste their time peddling lies here.
“We need an intelligent anti-gun commenter”
Isn’t that much like finding(?):
“eating fried foods that are healthy”
“fascists advocating for individual liberty”
“Eric Holder being honest”
The problem is that the only intelligent arguments are fundamentally contrary to American values. One is pacifism, the belief that violence is always wrong. The other is authoritarianism, the belief that the few must control the many.
Greg, what you said was part of why I changed camps. The only way for the police/government to protect everyone all the time is for them to be everywhere all the time. Not New York City-style “on every street corner”, but sitting in your home 24/7.
What did it for me was the recognition that if control freaks can come after the Second Amendment, they can come after any of the amendments.
Great article separating the facts from the fiction, but you fail to address the point MikeB was making up.
MikeB claims that DGUs are “fewer than gun accidents” before comparing “gun misuse” to “the real legitimate DGUs”, which makes me think his point was addressing unintentional or negligent misuse, not criminal misuse.
How do DGUs compare to negligence/accidents which do NOT involve bad guys?
See second-to-last paragraph.
Next time, I’ll read.
No worries. 😉
Bruce’s articles (read: mini-novels) are a wealth of info, but you’ll need some coffee and a bookmark to thoroughly absorb them.
Bruce is one of my favorite writers here due to his surgical style of dismantling every anti position he touches. Keep it up.
I’ve concluded that Mikey is actually pro gun and his only reason for posting his “facts” here are to increase hits to this pro gun site and further our cause. Nobody could actually be anti gun and as clueless and inept as mikey. If our opposition was actually this incompetent we’d be able to walk the streets with machine guns bought at 7/11.
I too sometimes wonder if mikeb is real or a pro-gun advocate pretending to be anti-gunner to express and demonstrate the irrational and ignorant mind-set of the gun-grabber crowd that would have people be defenseless sheep for the wolves of this world. It is hard to imagine that anyone can be as irrational and phobic as he is especially when we have more than gone out of our way to educate and inform him. We have given him the facts on guns, crime, and history. He has the information and the data. There is no logical, practical, or common-sense reason for him to continue being anti-gun. Unless of course, he is possibly insane and simply cannot accept facts and truth.
Oh no, whether MikeB is a true believer, there are way to many who are.
It’s an item of faith, a law of the universe, that an ordinary person WILL become a homicidal maniac with a gun inhand and if they don’t, they will draw a deadly confrontation to them, because like attracts like.
Any information contrary to this well known universal law is simply fabricated by those insane gun nuts, it’s only common sense.
In the end I don’t want anyone to have a gun because I’m afraid of what I might do if I had a gun and got angry.
I know this thinking first hand because this is what I was thinking after a human predator tryed to mug me and I was thinking of carrying a gun for self-protection.
It took almost getting killed to wake me up to ” The obviousness of the truth”, without that shock, I might not have woken up.
I look back on my West Coast progressive brain washing and see now a whole culture locked in a completely delusional outlook; but with so many believing this delusion, it is easy to believe it as “Universal Truth”.
Without a similar shock to ones belief system, I don’t see many being able to overcome that delusion.
I don’t get why he wants to increase traffic to his blog site. As far as I can tell he is making no revenue off of it. What is the point? Is it just to have people read his opinions and feed his ego? Judging by the comments over there, it doesn’t appear to be working. It doesn’t even look like the people that are supposedly on his side respect his opinion very much. It appears to be a rather sad and pointless waste of time if you ask me.
Wouldn’t it be funny if MikeB, Dog Gone, Laci and Baldr were all the same person? His blog would be a wonderful MPD case study.
LOL!!!
I am still laughing. Thanks, I needed that!
Don’t forget Hmmmmmm. If she ain’t another female alter ego for Mikey she’s missed her calling.
I first saw Mikeb posting under this or a very similar name on several other pro-gun blogs quite a few years ago (at least 5 or 6). He’s been pretty consistent over the years in spouting his ignorance of actual facts & he was banned from a couple blogs for refusing to back up his claims.
Mikeb203000 should stop spouting off things just because they sound good.
That’s the advice he gave all of us, he should practice what he preached.
If Mike was more honest about his views we wouldn’t be so hard on him. Tell us how you prefer a controlled society with limited civil rights, admit you think the world is full of crazies who can flip out on you, tell us how your own fear of guns manifests itself in a desire to melt them down.
But don’t throw Bull Shit at us and tell us it’s fudge brownies.
Now, you just don’t understand. Gun haters live by the double standard, so they can tell you what to do, but they are exempt from it.
Ever notice that MikeB doesn’t engage posts like this where his facts are challenged?
Mr. Mike, are you listening? Do you have an answer for Bruce? If so, please feel free to refute him point by point.
As always, be sure to cite your sources.
I’ve asked him to support his 500 claim time and again. When he answers, he always says that it’s his reasonable guess, based on his reading of news articles.
“My mind is made up, please don’t try to confuse me with facts.” – direct, accurate quote from mikeb#s.
At least, that’s my reasonable guess at what he would say, based on my reading of his drivel.
Don’t forget common sense and human nature. He trots out those chestnuts regularly as well.
he’s probably gonna try and defend his position with his ultimate fallback that he always uses when he’s being obliviously stupid- “It’s my point, and my opinion, and I have every right to believe it’s true!”
Come on, Mikey. stop being a child and just admit it- you were wrong. you do that, and you might get some semblance of respect from us.
And I don’t mean for you to weasel out of it with “I was KINDA wrong”- dude, you went FULL RETARD in your original statement. you were stone-cold dead wrong, and to call those numbers your “opinion” is criminal and foolish, not to mention hilariously stupid.
“MikeB is Wrong. Again. Still.”
Nuff said.
Oh, and AWESOME title!
Thanks, Bruce, for once again revealing mikey as your personal sock puppet.
If mikey didn’t exist, we’d have to make him up.
How can he be wrong again when he was never right in the first place?
Well, he can continue to be wrong with great repetitiveness.
Bruce I just love your posts.
I have been going on the assumption that MikeB is a reformed criminal. Like all those who swear off a vice he has become a zealot for the cause. If indeed he is a reformed criminal he probably draws his conclusion about guns from his experience in the criminal world. He projects the behavior of his former group onto all gun owners.
There are multiple studies showing that criminals are sociopaths. Remember, not all sociopaths are serial killers, in fact, most aren’t. Sociopathic behavior can occur among non criminals as well. MikeB shows one of the classic traits of a sociopath, i.e., he believes he is “smarter” than the herd. Why do you think he condescends and ridicules those who disagree with him? Of course, MikeB could just be a liar which would also indicate a sociopathic personality. MikeB thinks it’s ludicrous to be asked for a summary biography to clear up the confusion about his background and why he moved to Italy. I wager most other posters think this a reasonable question. But of course Mr. Bonomo “knows” better.
I think they make an ointment for that BURN!
Mike B, Here are the collated DGU’s just from just one of many websites, Keep & Bear Arms just since the beginning of Aug 2012.
Yeah, review of all those other websites that collate such police and media reported incidents show 100 or more per month as one of the TTAG contributors shows this some months is nearer 300 per month, the massive majority of which involved shots fired.
Of course since only 15% of incidents are shots fired (DOJ Firearms use by Offenders, Nov 2001 AND NO DATA TO SHOW THIS HAS CHANGED, and only 15% of those do shots hit their intended target POLICE FIREARM DISCHARGE REPORTS and the US govt acknowledges that 70% of violent crimes are not reported USDOJ NATIONAL VICTIMIZATION REPORT 2008, these arent the only ones that happen.
• Defensive Gun Use of the Day: Broad Daylight Edition (KS)
• Media: “Akron would-be robbers take off when victim, CCW permit holder, pulls gun on them” (OH)
• Homeowner Shoots 1 of 3 Armed Home Invaders, Others Flee (FL)
• Police: Store employee fatally shot suspected would-be robber (IN)
• Indianapolis liquor store worker shoots armed robber dead (IN)
• Former Houston Firefighter Shoots and Kills 1 of 2 Armed Home Invaders (TX)
• Arcade manager shoots, kills armed would-be robber (TX)
• Defensive Gun Use of the Day: Double Tap Edition (CT)
• Off Duty FL Cop Shoots and Kills Registered Sex Offender Who Broke Into His Girlfriend’s Home (FL)
• Son in Law Draws Gun to Protect In-laws’ Property After Good Neighbor Called Him (GA)
• 69 Year Old Homeowner in SD Shoots and Kills 21 Year Old Home Invader (SD)
• Woman Says Her Life Was Saved by Shooting at Late Night Burglar (WI)
• Muskegon County man with calm nerves, shotgun talks down intruders (MI)
• Store owner shoots at robbers (KY)
• Gunman dies from gunshot wounds (UT)
• St. Paul mom, daughter hold burglar for police with pink gun (MN)
• 10 year-old with BB gun saves mother’s life from attacker (WA)
• Buckeyes for Concealed Carry President Uses Handgun to Defend Family (OH)
• Homeowner Wakes Up To Morning Home Invader, Fights Back (SC)
• Employee fatally shoots back at customer who opened fire at Don’s Guns (IN)
• DGU of the Day: Shotgun-Wielding Neighbor Runs Off Rapist Edition (TX)
• Big Bad Wolf gets perforated while threatening Little Red Riding Hood (TX)
• Musician in CA Uses Gun to Stop Burglars For The Second Time In His Life (CA)
• Police: Detroit man shot back at would-be robbers, killed teen (MI)
• Disabled Homeowner Shoots and Kills Female Burglar (OK)
• Big Bad Wolf gets perforated while threatening Little Red Riding Hood (TX)
• Disabled Oklahoma Homeowner Shoots and Kills 1 of 3 Women Who Broke Into His Home (OK)
• 68-year-old woman fires gun to chase off attacker (OH)
• Armed Houston, TX Restaurant Owner Chases Off 2 Burglars (TX)
• Winslow Township Pharmacist Fires Handgun At Would-Be Robber (NJ)
• Homeowner Catches Three Car Thieves, Held Them at Gunpoint Until Police Arrived (MO)
• NOLA Homeowner Still Without Power Shoots Looter in the Face (LA)
• Phoenix Homeowner Unloads Birdshot into Would-be Robber (AZ)
• Homeowner Shoots 1 of 2 Intruders, Suspects Caught When They Ran Right Into a Rape Crime Scene (IN)
• Lexington, KY Homeowner Shoots At, Scares Off Daytime Intruder (KY)
• Father and Son Exchange Gunfire With Burglars; Both Homeowners and 1 Suspect Were Shot (GA)
• Detroit Party Store Owner Shoots Three of Four Burglars, Killing One (MI)
• Mother Defends Her Toddler by Shooting at Daytime Home Invader (SC)
• Palm Beach, FL Shoots and Kills 1 of 2 Home Invasion Suspects (FL)
• Female Homeowner in Columbia, TN Shoots Career Criminal Who Was Attacking House Guest (TN)
• Off Duty Reserve Police Officer in TX Shoots Intruder in the Head, Killing Him (TX)
• 92-year-old Verona man shoots intruder at home (KY)
• Amazing Video: Fast Draw Security Guard at Internet Cafe Shoots 1 of 3 Armed Robbers in FL (FL)
• Neighbors: Early morning shooting an act of self-defense (CA)
• 92-year-old Ohio homeowner guns down intruder (OH)
• 76 Year Old Real Estate Employee in WA Shoots Early Morning Office Burglar (WA)
• Defensive Gun Use of the Day: You Go Girl Edition (MI)
• Indianapolis Homeowner Confronts and Shoots Late Night Home Invader; Protects His Wife/Daughter (IN)
• Portland, OR Homeowner Scares Off Burglar With Shotgun Blast While His Wife and Child Slept (OR)
• DGUotD II: Concealed Carry Texan Stops Stabbing at San Antonio School (TX)
• Montana rancher shoots black bear that broke into home (MT)
• Texas Smoke Shop Owner Shoots At, Fights Off, Two Armed Robbers While His Wife Watches (TX)
• Armed mother saves 2 year-old from kidnapper (CA)
• Savannah, GA Homeowner Shoots and Kills Suspected Home Invader (GA)
• Armed customer shoots dollar store robber, killing him (FL)
• Vancouver, WA Homeowner Shoots and Kills Intruder Who Forced His Way Into Bedroom (WA)
• Police: Security guard fired in self-defense (LA)
• Armed Citizen Stops Violent Attack on Cop (LA)
• Homeowner Shoots 1 of 2 Intruders Using His .357 Magnum (IL)
• Homeowner Fires Shots at Multiple Intruders (MS)
• Don’t Bring A Knife To A Gun Fight (NC)
• Homeowner Shoots Late Night Home Invader Who Threatened His Wife (TX)
• Man Who Tried to Force His Way Into Home is Shot, Killed by 66 Year Old Veteran With .357 Magnum (OR)
• 87 Year Old NC Woman Uses 9mm Handgun to Scare Off 2 Home Invaders (NC)
• Las Vegas Dairy Queen Clerk Shoots, Kills Sword Wielding Masked Robber (NV)
• Armed Homeowner Scares Teens Trying To Steal Entire Safe (CO)
• Suspected Burglar Shot In Neck; Drives Self To Hospital (CA)
• Defensive Guns Use of the Day: No One Needs More Than Ten Rounds, Vol II Edition (KS)
• Caretaker at Dayton apostolic temple shoots burglar (OH)
• Alabama woman shoots home invader to protect ax and knife wielding daughters (AL)
• Houston, TX Homeowner Shoots 1 of 3 Men Burglarizing His Neighbor’s Home (TX)
• Macon store employee shoots car burglar in Academy Sports parking lot (GA)
• Homeowner Shoots Would Be Home Invader (KY)
• Elderly FL Homeowner Shoots and Kills Knife Wielding Home Invader (FL)
• Shotgun Wielding Street Robber Shot by Concealed Carrying Victim (TX)
MikeB#s wrong.
In other breaking news: sun rises in the east early this morning.
Still, Mike is entertaining even as he’s infuriating. I miss his daft drooling when he’s gone so long. No, really, I do.
Just for perspective let’s look at a place where DGU is in fact rare, Great Britain.
In 2010 total violent crimes in GB was 1,158,957. The total for the US was 1,246,248, or somewhat close to equal. The other relevant piece of information is that the population of GB is just over 60 million while that of the US is right at 330 million or about five times larger.
So we can observe that in a place where DGU are prohibited by custom, law, and availability of firearms the violent crime rate is five times that of the US.
I’m sure MikeB has plenty of excuses why this factoid has no bearing on the gun issue here in America.
The definition of “violent crime” is different here in the UK & even “harsh words” can be classed as such because they caused a fear of violence.
When actual violence is involved the numbers are far less, though the per capita rate still remains more than double that of the US.
Mike, the act of threatening a violent act “kill, beat, whup, kick, hit, etc, etc, etc, can and is also prosecuted as a violent crime here in the US.
Dont think calling someone an idiot, moron, liar, or other similar “harsh” spoken word is considered a violent crime, but post the law and its definition from UK law and will see.
I’m very skeptical of statistics, aren’t you guys? Isn’t it that both sides can quote stats that support their argument?
That’s why I use my head and try to see what makes sense. You guys don’t do that as far as I can see. You just leap to any statistic that proves your point and keep repeating what you hear each other say.
I’ve mentioned these two things before and don’t remember much response.
1. If you google “gun” or “shooting” you get about a 100 to 1 ratio of misuse of the gun to legitimate DGU.
2. If DGUs are so commonplace, why do we not hear frequent or even daily first-hand reports from the many gazillion readers of this site?
So, what you’re saying is you dont have any statistics to back up your claims?
Dear Sir;
I truly, truly hope that as someone earlier said you are in fact a pseudonym for a pro-gun activist looking to ridicule anti-2nd Amendment activists. I like to assume that my opponents have a thoroughly reasoned, rational basis for their opposition, even if it is not one that I feel is correct. You have openly admitted in your post that you do not look at the facts, but instead only consider “what makes sense” to you, ie “what fits my worldview”. Now this behavior is not solely limited to liberal thinkers, I have encountered a couple of people on the conservative side of the fence who use the same thought process, but one thing I like about most conservatives I have met is that they are willing to take the effort to look into the issue they advocate. And most of the liberals I have met, if they are not well versed in a topic, and I call them on it, are at least willing to research it before making further comments.
As for why there are more news stories of gun misuse than defensive gun use, I’m sure there are many, but I can name you at least 3.
1) Because defensive gun use is so much more common than gun misuse it is not considered newsworthy from a novelty standpoint, except on a purely local level.
2) Because the vast majority of defensive gun uses do not end up with anyone dead or an innocent person hurt they are not considered newsworthy from a gore/shock value perspective.
3) Because the vast majority of those in control of the main media outlets in this country share the views of both you and the Brady group, a report of defensive gun use would not support their cause and so they do not report it.
When the statistics come from objective sources like the CDC or NIH or NAS, no, I’m not skeptical given the fact their hard science is used to make accurate policy decisions all the time. What I am skeptical of is some bullshitter on the internet throwing out numbers they admit are made up and then typing “wake up sheeple” to validate said bullshit. A google search isn’t objective research MikeB (B stands for bullshitter?). Additionally we don’t hear about the yearly 29000 accidental falls, 44000 accidental poisonings or 500000 staph infection deaths from hospitals on the news every night. Are you really this naive? You are wrong, dead wrong, pathetically wrong.
Seriously, some people never change… But then again, the antis spout the same shit so much, it’ll have stuck in their brains. But that shouldn’t surprise us, their heads are so far up their arses…