“The federal judge considering a proposed class-action settlement involving millions of allegedly defective Remington rifles is raising new questions about the accord, warning a plaintiff’s attorney in court that the agreement as it currently stands risks more people being injured by the guns,” cnbc.com reports. U.S. District Judge Ortrie Smith’s main beef with the not-a-recall recall? The Freedom Group subsidiary will send vouchers for $10 or $12.50 (for Remington clobber) to consumers with Remington rifles that are too old to be retrofitted with the XMark Pro trigger. “If the guns are defective,” the judge asked, “why are they still out there?” In other words . . .
At issue are some 600,000 guns including the Model 600, which has a similar firing mechanism to the 700 series but was recalled and discontinued in the 1970s. Plaintiffs’ attorney Jon Robinson said most of the guns in question are so old, they are “probably in a closet somewhere.” If not, and they have not caused a problem by now, he said, they are “probably not a problem.” Besides he said, the proposed settlement does not prevent gun owners from filing personal injury claims later should a gun malfunction.
But the judge was skeptical.
“The problem with your approach, Mr. Robinson, is that first, somebody’s got to get hurt,” he said.
Yes, well, there is that. Anyway, what’s 600k duff rifles compared to the eight million long guns Remington has agreed to retrofit, if only when asked? Maybe enough to scuttle an agreement that would draw a line under Remington’s trigger connector-related woes and line plaintiffs’ pockets. Watch this space.
“If the guns are defective,” the judge asked, “why are they still out there?”
It’s not a bad question, Burt.
Nice Return of the Living Dead reference!!
But the super secret is that none of them were defective to start with.
Bigfoot says, “Shhhhhhhh”
The Savages!
The Savages are okay. It’s the Remingtons that are giving people trouble. 🙂
::wink::
The savages are far from ok…mine has been cleaned after every hunt/shooting session. My savage axis 243 i no longer use after chambering a round and it firing almost instantly upon sliding the bolt forward. let alone locking it down. Savage said i wasnt cleaning the gun properly lol. Guess theirs require mr clean or lysol to clean and not gun cleaner products…be offered decet money for it but refuse to sell it knowing its a dangerous rifle.
Anyone who would buy a Remington product these days is crazy. Putting aside this websites problems with Remington’s PR department, their quality is terrible. The two rem products I’ve bought were poor in quality, then there’s the R51, and this trigger issue… I mean, seriously…. Why make guns anymore, just stick to rem-oil, y’all seem to do ok with that.
Yep. And they offer NOTHING over the competition. Want a good bolt action rifle for a similar price? Get a Savage. Want a good 12 gauge pump for a similar price? Mossberg. Want a good handgun? Literally anything else would be better.
As for the rifle, I’ve heard that you buy a Remington 700 to upgrade. But I don’t see how that works. Given all the problems with current production 700’s, you’d need to replace pretty much every piece, in which case, you gain nothing buying the 700 in the first place.
Thanks for putting into words what I was thinking…with all the better choices out there, why buy a Remington?
Because all the cool accessories are only made for the Rem 700 action. AI stocks? Rem 700. Magpul stock? Rem 700. If you can fin an exception I would like to know about it. I thnk the Ruger 77 action is better.
Fortunately my 700 is pre fredom group, but I still plan to replace the trigger.
Nah, if one wants a Remington 870 pump but feels SOL don’t go with Mossberg. I’d just get a Pardner Pump or Hawk 982…they are 870s, only better for about 1/2 the price. I think they are better than Mossbergs also, for about uh…half the price.
I have to admit, I was not very happy with the quality of my r700, even though it was 3/4 MOA right out of the box. It looks and feels like they accomplished that 3/4 MOA at the expense of everything else. Next time I’ll try a Howa or another Savage.
That speaks volumes when the only reliable product from a company is rebranded mineral oil.
Is there 1911 any good?
“Probably in a closet somewhere”? Is that supposed to mean something?
most of my guns are in a closet…
You should tell them that it’s OK to come out.
I can’t afford to feed them all : (
It seems Remington just keeps skeletons in their closet.
$10? Really! Now that’s a deal!
And what kind of hold harmless agreement will they require you to sign to get your $10?
What a sad spectacle Remington has become.
yaa take youre $10.00 and stuff it i used to be a remmy guy ,from what ive seen coming out of there nope ,, the lesson here everyone is, when cerebus takes over a company ,that company is going downhill boycott cerebus owned companies ,hopefully remington gets it together and comes back ,but they have been turned into junk ,,too bad
That is the way class action lawsuits work. The law firm that represents the consumers settles the case for millions in “legal fees”, and the consumers get coupons or something equally worthless as part of the settlement. I do not believe I have ever heard of a class action lawsuit where this did not happen.
Lawyer Protective Assoc rules. “you will either lose or you may lose but we will win”
The phrase “They don’t make ’em like they used to.” Is synonymous with Remington.
I have an early R700 ADL pre floor plate.
I also have a R700 AAC-SD 308.
Quite a bit of difference machining, fit, finish, tightness when you really get to looking at the two side by side.
A brand new 870 super mag I had gave me plenty of problems. Out of spec chamber. Had to get them to replace it.
Like a previous comment said, your crazy to buy a remington product now a days.
Oh Remington where has common cents gone on this matters. Special now got judge on this case wondering very same thing. As firearms owner not shock over way Remington handle this matter after I seen scandales way Remington handle R51 Pistol disaster . Which happen right after this event.
Would replacing all of them for a new rifle bankrupt Remington?
Probably the whole Freedom Group.
Sounds like a win-win there…
I don’t know. A lot of people that would lose their jobs. The people at the top don’t care much. But the actual workers deserve far better than what Freedom group has done.
Youall took my talking points. Do you suppose they’ll think this coverage is a vendetta?
I doubt any of these firearms are as old my my model 1893 Mauser that sits in a closet but saw use as recently as two months ago. Seems like a lot of weak arguments are being put forth in an effort to wish this problem away.
Keep reporting Remington’s woes and you’ll definitely be off the Christmas card list this year 😀
My R700 is in the recall and I wrote to them and told them to just send me a Timney trigger… Of course they won’t do that, though it would be cheaper for them. They replied that I could just remove the trigger myself and send it in. I thought I read in the manual that they didn’t recommend owners messing with the trigger… If I do that will I be left on my own when the replacement turns out to be defective?
Two years ago I bought a bunch of Remington 12 g Buckshot–most of it wouldn’t fire no matter which shotgun I used. Or was it slugs??
Anyway, I won’t even buy Remi ammo anymore.
I bought an 870 about two-and-a-half years ago. Runs like a sewing machine.
Would I buy one from the commercial side of the Remington house? Not just no, but Hell no. It’s a good thing, though, that Remington Defense is a totally separate production line and actually has an eye for quality — and at SHOT Show this year they announced the release of most of their products to the civilian market.
No kidding? I might actually be able to get the 870 and 700 I’ve wanted for years without having to worry about quality. Was the Remy ACR to be included?
Bought a youth model 870 in 20 Gauge for the Mrs. last June. Its fit well and runs like a champ. Looks good too with the laminated stock and forend. If there are any issues with this shotgun, its that the tolerances are so tight that you have to pay attention on reassembly, but I don’t consider it an issue at all.
Last 700 I bought was 2003 complete with the so called Mike Walker defective trigger. Hasn’t gone off without my finger pressing the trigger yet after a few thousand rounds through it, but I take proper care of it.
Runs 1/2 to 3/4 MOA all day long with just about everything you can feed it off the shelf. Tighter with my hand loads. The only thing I did to the trigger was to lighten the pull up and then lock it down with some nail polish to keep it from moving. I clean out the trigger at least once per year and lube it. No issues. Runs step for step with any comparably priced Savage heavy barrel 308 that I have run into. I do like the Savage barrel change though-easy to change and set up for zero headspace. To do better, I’d have to get one of their F class jobs-nice rifle indeed!
Don’t know about these Mark X triggers-my youngest son bought the new Long Range 30-06 and he says that his runs very well and has had no issues.
Let’s see, I have a Remington Wingmaster, Remington 700 ADL, and three Remington BDLs and have experienced no problems. Maybe it’s the head space of some of the owners that is out of adjustment. My Remingtons date from 1962-2004.
The only pockets that get lined in a class action suit are the plaintiff’s lawyers’.
I own a couple of 700’s, one CDL from the 1960’s which is slick as hell (bought new by my dad). Fine hand checkered gloss finished walnut stock, super high polish blue on the action and barrel, engine turned and polished bolt with polished blue handle. Beautiful gun with a wonderful trigger that easily shoots 1/2 MOA and has taken many many deer in it’s time.
The other is a 15yr old 700P. It’s parkerized and rough looking because it’s a working gun. I didn’t expect it to be a looker, and it ain’t. However, the action is just as smooth and locks up just as tight as the other one, and it shoots just as well or maybe even a fuzz better (it’s hard to compare a .243 to a .308 at the longer distances, not really a fair match). Shooting my hand loads, if I do my part, it will put five rounds through basically the same bullet hole at the length of my range (125yds). Trigger is heavier than the .243’s, but still very good.
That said, I would not buy a new 700 for any reason, save to harvest the action for a custom build (and even that is marginal, they’d have to be on sale or something). There are a lot of very nice rifles out there now for the same or less money than the Remington that will be far better built (IMO).
Same with the new build 870’s. I own a few 870’s, but the last one I bought about seven or eight years ago is but a shadow of the one that came before it about 15 yrs ago, and the new ones are worse made yet.
Remington has a lot of problems, but this lawsuit ain’t gonna fix any of them or help anyone who was damaged. This is just a way for a bunch of lawyers to bank a medium sized fortune for six months worth of paperwork.
Other firearms manufacturer’s have had recalls and the TTAG community never slapped them around like they do Remington. What exactly is the problem???
http://www.remington.com/pages/news-and-resources/safety-center/safety-warning-recall-notice-remington-model700-modelseven.aspx
Does anyone have one of these rifles – does any one know what
“under certain circumstances” … and …. “Excess bonding agent” they are talking about?
I have a lot of old milsurps. They are worn and occasionally need work. There are never any “recalls” for them and nobody is going to fix the problem for me. But someone spots some “excess bonding agent” in a Remington and all hell breaks loose.
Also, this settlement nonsense for firearms made an entire generation ago in the 1970’s is ridiculous. Surely there is some kind of time limit right? I mean If someone finds a defective Ford Parklane from 1956 are they going to make Ford send out recall notices??? – Class action lawsuit?? Come on.
Other firearms manufacturer’s have had recalls and the TTAG community never slapped them around like they do Remington. What exactly is the problem???
It’s personal now 😉
We have a corporate raider, buying all the firearms companies for sale, they strip them of all their profits, sell the Equipment, ruin the brand then try too peddle them cheap! Really brilliant gun control, destroy the hated industry and achieve their Goal of no guns at the same time! then all we will have are imports for astronomical costs! all the no gun billionaires are laughing all the way too the bank because they are destroying our domestic ability to manufacture weapons! meanwhile us Peons can only whine and take it in the shorts, then involve the Anti-gun judiciary in law suits using a rigged gun! Viola no more factory all the wailing and Gnashing of teeth will not bring them back,blame the raider for lost quality! all they care about is greed!
I know this site loves to knock Remington every chance they get, but these rifles are NOT unsafe. The lawsuit was entirely frivolous. The only times these guns ever “went off” when they weren’t supposed to was when they had been heavily modified from factory configuration with super-light triggers. The attorney for the plaintiffs had a fun time trying (and failing) to replicate the malfunction in a rifle unmodified from the way it came from the factory. It’s a completely overblown mess of a lawsuit and Remington, THIS TIME, is not actually at fault for anything.
John, You might want to use this thing called google. Completely unmodified 700s that just go off when handled, cycled, or having the safety manipulated have been a known issue to the firearms community for 40 years. I was taught back in the 70s what can happen with a 700. In the days before the web, it was easier for Remington to hide this, it’s wasn’t like any gun rag was going to man-up and print that story.
It does not happen to all of them, and the vast majority of 700 owners never have any problems with the hundred rounds they put down the pipe over the time they own the gun. But it does happen, it’s a known bad design, and just because most folks have been lucky, not everyone has been.
It’s worse than that when it comes to the gun rags. I remember reading about the case with the 700 that fired when put on safe, killing a kid in the process, in the eighties in Guns and Ammo. The “journalist” defended Remington not issuing a recall and blaming it all on the user as she didn’t point the rifle in a safe direction when putting it on safe. So they did sometimes write about it, but then only to paper over Remington’s flaws.
There is no excuse for a gun going off without the trigger being pulled (in normal use). None. Not one in a thousand, not one in ten thousand. None.
The “not a recall” was a joke. All they did to compensate (aside from let you send back your gun instead of say, sending you the new trigger….) was offer what amounted to store credit that could only be used to purchase crumby Remington branded apperal. Who the hell wants that? The idea probably sounded great in a board meeting “Screw over our customers, then let them buy our clothing so they can advertise for use when they are out at NASCAR, or whatever they do.”
there was a TV News segment about this where they actually interviewed the designer of the remington 700, walker i think was his name. it was very interesting to watch. IN THE SCHEMATICS of the gun Walker even wrote, “potential safety failure” concerning the safety catch. then later in the same segment when asked “what do you attribute these accidents to?” and he said with a straight face ” poor firearms maintenance”. complete hypocrisy and accountability avoidance. my father gave me a rem700 and he said he had it do it to him twice, he had it fixed himself for not much but it does happen.
Mike Walker is indeed the designer of the trigger, who recommended at the time an additional part be installed, The additional part he wanted installed was rejected by management.
Let this be a lesson to anyone about to start a company… Don’t let the bean counters make all the decisions.
They know only how to maximize return in the short term, at the expense of the long. Bean counters like to “minimize risk” but all they do is gamble with the highstakes of your company’s future knowing that they will have been paid off and on their way up the corporate ladder by the time the bet blows up in the original company’s face (not all do, but Remington’s clearly did).
I have never seen a company that has so much bad misfortune. Whats sad is they did it to themselves by cutting corners all these years. And now its finally coming to light and we are all realizing that they have never really been of good quality all these years. A lot of Americans were duped. I personally have always looked at Remington for what they really are and have always been. A low priced product that a lot of people owned because they were so affordable. Thats what they have always been. But turns out they were skipping over vastly important production steps such as quality control and testing. I am expecting at any point we will see a press release that they are folding. And it wouldnt be a bad thing. To me they are already dead anyway.
Savage and winchester have been doing the same bs. They just haven;t had anyone file a class action suit against them and thats because people who have sued went to lawyers that were set out on making it right for the person suing not the lawyers looking to make millions…there are lawyers that do have a lil bit of integrity and are not into to find that one case that could set them up for retirement once the case is finished. Most of these claims against remington are caused by neglect of the firearm but anti gun nuts can’t be hearing the truth and the judge has to go on what the media is saying not the facts. Sure they have cut cost useing plastics on non integeral parts the same as every firearms manufacturer in the baseline price range.
I just recently purchased an 11-87 and an 870. The only problems Ive had with either one is the shells sticking on ejection. After a chamber polish with a drill motor and Scotch Brite on the end of a bore cleaning rod there have been no issues at all.