“‘When they come for my gun, they will have to pry it out of my cold, dead hands,’ is a common refrain I often hear from the Neo-Cons when there is a threat, credible or otherwise, that the US government is going to take their firearms. And, when I hear this crazy talk, I agree with them openly. ‘You are right. They will pry your gun from your cold dead hands,’ which I often follow with the question, ‘And where will that leave you except face down in a pool of your own blood [in] the middle of the street, just another dead fool resisting the State?'” Holy Statist Batman, who wrote this thing? That would be Jim Karger over at dailyreckoning.com. But wait! Jimbo’s warning against increasing police militarization . . .
If the federal government decides to disarm the public, and when the increasingly-militarized rolls down your street after a not-so-subtle request that you kindly turn over your firearms and ammunition “for the common good,” it will be nothing less than suicide by cop to do anything other than what you are told.
The militarization of US police forces is ongoing and escalating. Many cities and towns now own tanks, armed personnel carriers, even attack helicopters, and almost all are outfitted with military weapons not available to the general public.
And, it is not just your hometown cops who are getting new boy-toys. The military itself is buying up weaponry not just for use in the current or next scheduled war, but to deal with the likes of you, citizens who don’t seem to understand that the Bill of Rights has been overruled, and that specifically includes, but is not limited to, the right to protest and engage in civil disobedience.
Whew! He’s on the side of the Constitution and those who kinda like it. OK Jim, you can chill now. Alarm raised. Jim?
And, to you tough-talking Neo-Cons with your AR-15 rifles and a few thousand rounds of ammo, here is the reality: they will take your guns, and no, all your Second Amendment bluster aside, you are not going to do anything about it. You are not going to take on a platoon of Marines with state-of-the-art automatic weapons and the best body armor you cannot buy protected by armed personnel carriers and attack helicopters unless you choose to die that day — for nothing. You will either be in the country or out, and if you are in, you will stay in and you will comply.
That is your choice… for the moment.
Until you see Red Dawn! Wolverines!
“The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.”
Karger is a pawn of the state, helping to instill fear in those who might be inclined to resist.
“One thing is for certain: there is no stopping them; the ants will soon be here. And I for one welcome our new insect overlords. I’d like to remind them that as a trusted TV personality, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.”
Molon Labe, right?
It’s certainly not helping. Painting the situation as a lose-lose situation distracts people from the steps they can take to engage with their government and even change it.
“Karger is a pawn of the state, helping to instill fear in those who might be inclined to resist.”
Henry, you might be right. However, most of the people I have met who express Karger’s attitude lack cajones.
I don’t know about all the scenarios he conjures up, but we’ve seen 10 years of action in the ME and poorly trained and equipped locals sure gave our military a hard time. There would not be unlimited resources available in such a situation, logistics and resupply would be hampered for sure. A civil war in this country would not be north v south, it would be more personal than that.
Head on in a face to face confrontation of course Joe Sixpack loses. But Joe might not be that stupid. Look at this all dynamically instead of statically and you’ll see it’s not going to be a toe to toe situation. It would not be a surprise attack and thre would be ample opportunity to outflank whatever ideas they have.
Apparently every government agency is gearing up for battle. I’ll have to ask the social security office near me if they have secured their weapons and inventoried the ammo yet.
Agreed. He obviously has no understanding of 4th generation warfare.
Karger hasn’t read history, or paid any attention to recent news.
Not to mention Vietnam, the Soviet Afghan war.. and another often overlooked little skirmish call… THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION!!
There is a long history of super powers being defeated by passionate, determined armies made up of “poorly” armed peasants and citizens.
In Vietnam the “peasants” had a little help from a couple of world powers to supply them with training and firearms. The same thing in the Soviet Afghan war. The U.S. spent billions to supply the Afghans with weapons and training. The Chinease and Russians spent more than that to outfit and supply the North Vietnamese regulars and the outfit them with weapons and planes. In the American Revolution, the U.S. had help from France. If there is another Revolution in the U.S. who is going to supply the Cash and Arms to help fight the revolution? China? Russia? I don’t think so, maybe North Korea or if the Rebels are desperate they could seek help from the Muslim Brotherhood. The world powers won’t step in to restore freedom and the 2nd Ammendment, they will help the Federal Government restore peace and trade routes.
probably one of the smartest posts about any future rebellion i’ve seen on this site. let’s exhaust the ballot box before we reach for the cartridge box.
disagree on that one man, i mean seriously you think if it will remove the U.S. ability to be a player on the world stage someone wont jump in with arms and under the table logistics/intel support for any resistance group? If it meant the united states couldnt cause them trouble any number of groups would be lined up around the block to provide any toy your heart desires if it would mean overseas us military assets couldnt enforce foriegn policy because of being called home to deal with “civil unrest”. Im just saying if the U.S. wasnt playing big brother to half the world you think north korea or any of the countries surrounding isreal wouldn’t send a few stingers to resistance groups in america?
I would also like to suggest the possibility that the US Military would be plagued from within by libertarian minded patriots who could and would sabotage the war effort. In a true, balls to the wall US Military VS US Civilians scenario much of the military would defect, turn in on itself, or quit the battlefield. One of the cornerstones of our strength is the idea that we fight for causes that are just (please refrain from using this comment as a launching platform to discuss Iraq… I know) against enemies who are evil. In this fictional scenario we would be gunning down civilians in the name of a government who has forsaken or outright eliminated the Constitution that each and every service member has sworn to protect and defend. Don’t underestimate the intelligence and independence of some commanding officers to call shennanigans on that.
I know that one of the prevailing attitudes that is advanced on this website is that the Military and Militarized Law Enforcement will simply turn on the public when commanded to do so. Frankly that is a gross over simplification and not grounded in reality.
If there is another Revolution in the U.S. who is going to supply the Cash and Arms to help fight the revolution?
Apparently you missed the 90 guns in civilian hands per 100 people in the US statistic, and it’s growing every day. The citizens of the US own enough guns to arm at least the three largest militaries in the world, if not more than that.
The main differences between armed conflict HERE and armed conflict in Vietnam or the Middle East or anywhere else is that HERE the combatants are indistinguishable from the military (may actually have been in and received their training from the military), many members of the military may have a problem with attacking their countrymen, the People are already in the logistical rear of the military, and the number of armed citizens dwarfs the number of military personnel in all branches combined.
Add to that political assassinations and the families of military personnel and politicians becoming active targets, and it’s pretty clear that such a war won’t be another Afghanistan.
Picture, for example, a single helicopter pilot who disagrees with his command, commandeers a chopper and strafes the flight line. Or someone working on MREs spiking a few dozen meals with poison. Or someone working in an ammo plant that slips a few dozen double-charged rounds into the mix. A maintenance guy who stuffs a hand full of sand into the gearbox.
How will the military respond when all the support functions fail? And that doesn’t even include the guy who sets up 800 yards out, takes a shot and melts away. Do you know that at 800 yards, you never even hear the shot, even if you’re not the target?
Sure, early on, individuals will be sitting ducks for a militarized police force. But at some point, the cops will want to go home, to see their families, to get some sleep. They won’t be that hard to find.
Every single call they respond to could be a setup.
Look how effective the police were in hunting down two low-intelligence, poorly-trained, black, queer muslims in the DC area. The profilers had the bad guy down as a white, middle-aged, heterosexual christian male in a white van!
Now picture hundreds of sniper teams who actually know what they’re doing.
brother bear, you forgot about the current iraq and afghan wars. a “army” (more like a couple of regiments or perhaps a division) of ragtag insurgents has managed to bankrupt and inflict horrendous losses on the worlds most powerful armed forces. Despite all of their overwhelming firepower, airpower, and the sophistication of their weapons, the low-tech insurgents are STILL fighting.
The author is ludicrous on his crazy scenario. Troops would be firing on their own towns and people. The gov would be destroying its very infrastructure. The country would turn into the worlds largest sniper alley (and, by God, I would be one of those snipers). If we couldnt take Afganistan, how the hell would our fractured gov take this huge nation with a rifleman behind every blade of grass (japanese general saying).
A bunch of semiauto rifles makes the price of ‘self invasion’ too high, and thats what libs who envision these fantasies dont get.
No. That’s what they do get. That’s why their so cranked up now. I personally think it’s paranoia, but they think “OMG.” What a tedious bunch.
So? I’ll die a free man. I won’t live a single day under tyranny. And some people who need hurtin’ will get hurt. Maybe, some people who need killin’ will get killed.
There’s no way I’m facing what the residents of the Warsaw ghetto faced. And I honestly don’t believe I’ll ever have to. Much of this is academic and hyperbolic. But, one never really knows for sure. That’s why we are armed.
The fact that it might be preferable to die fighting than to live in subjugation never crosses the mind of people like Karger.
Exactly. I always try to explain to people like him that it’s better to die on your feet than live on your knees.
To quote my favorite Klingon,”Heghlu’meH QaQ jajvam!” (It’s a good day to die!)
If it comes, I will not be a good German.
Its the “Give me liberty, or give me death” knell of our forefathers. PLUS, they’ll have one less TAXPAYER to feed their evil.
The recent news of so many government agencies ‘gunning up’ and making large ammo purchases bothers me. Huge purchases of .40 caliber jacketed hollow point, ostensibly for “training” doesn’t make sense. That stuff’s expensive — you train with FMJ, which is a lot cheaper. What’s going on?
The latest news — the Social Security Administration buys 174,000 rounds to supply the needs of 295 ‘special agents’. That’s almost 600 rounds per agent. Not training ammo, but .357 magnum jacketed hollow point. Again — what’s going on?
The NOAA was buying ammo too… DAMN…am going to get gunned down by the cute girl that does the weather?!
If so, I’d ask for a last request that she flash me before executing me. At least then you could die with a smile on your face.
you train with FMJ because you’re paying for it. They train with hollow points because you’re paying for it. pretty cool how that works, huh?
The ammo is being purchased with taxpayer $$$. So the cost doesn’t matter to them.
We train with the same ammo we carry on duty. My office has done this for well over ten years now. Way back when we still carried wheelguns, we would use wadcutters at the range but that stopped when we switched to semi-autos in the late 90’s.
These tin-hat comments crack me up!
I seriously doubt it will come to this. but, its better to die on your feet than keep living on your knees.
I’m sure Karger has a good supply of knee pads
Probably has stretch marks around his mouth, too.
im not s–tting you, one time ive tried for 30 minutes to explain to a anti-gun person the logic behind how id rather die fighting then live on my knees. It was like trying to teach quantum physics to a art history major. It didn’t sink in, because this person would always revert back to “oh well people like you will just make things worse” and “im not a fighter”. Absolute stupidity.
If that’s the way it’s to happen in your hypothetical, how many others like the gun owners and operators on this message board would immediately band together with deadly force to resist, given they saw or heard the said law-abiding-gun-owning citizen has just been murdered in the street? That would not be healthy for either side. Has this guy heard of Afghanistan? Does he think we are any less determined, intelligent, financed, and trained than those people, besides the fact that we actually know freedom and have a moral imperative?
It won’t ever happen like that, precisely because, and likely only because, the government knows this.
A few seconds of foreshadowing quickly leads to a civil war.
One single story of a citizen being murdered over not handing over their guns and the opposition would unite, plan and prepare.
I’d hate to be a cop the day they say, “Oh yeah… today we get to go and (attempt to) disarm the town”.
Historians have determined that about 3 to 5 percent of Americans fought British tyranny during the American Revolution.
“And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”
Aleksandr I. Solzhenitsyn
That is a moving quote USMCVeteran. Thanks for posting it.
God yes. I haven’t asked my brother in laws (both cops) what they’d do if that day comes, but I sure as hell wouldn’t want to be anyone wearing a military uniform or carrying a badge if we ever have another civil war.
The police have a couple of people that can shoot beyond 800m. I know several. Your body armor is proof against a .308? Then why have people been selling .338 Lapua for decades? The police have tanks? Great. I’m sure there are some loyal Americans more than willing to donate their sugar ration to see that those tanks are static-display only.
You cannot control 300 million people with 100,000 trigger-pullers. Or even a million, if you add in militarized cops. Standard COIN doctrine, according to the most recent FM, is that you need one troop per 25 civilians, that’s 12 million to “suppress” the entire United States. Yes, the Marines are formidable. No, I would not want to face them in combat. Yes, a bunch of people would die, probably including me. But if the ratio I need to keep ahead of is taking out one wanna-be oppressor for every 25 of me, then that’s doable.
Part of what makes the US military so devastating is the embrace of individual initiative and creative thinking. How do you fight an entire civilian population where that is the mindset? Where there are lots of civilians who can shoot as well as the military? Where the distribution of advanced knowledge of how systems like electricity, water, logistics and gas is widespread in the population, and how to wreck these systems is well-known? We spend most days trying to keep bad things from happening to our civilized systems, what happens when the people in the middle flip ends on their goals?
In a very small town, a troop of soldiers can establish local dominance. In an entire nation that is 12x more populous than Iraq, with a much more educated and well-armed population? Good luck. Anything can be done with sufficient firepower, but it’s not the cakewalk Karger would have you believe.
Plus, if it came to that I imagine large numbers of American human being military and police will object and stroll out the door with firepower to spare. I find it hard to imagine American M&P to uniformly view the people as the enemy, in spite of how we feel about them when we get speeding tickets.
I suggest reading your 20th century American history. They’ve never objected to murdering civilians, even unarmed US veterans during the Bonus Army debacle or unarmed students at Kent State.
People always claim that the M&P are more “moral” than that. Maybe some of them are, but when the order comes down and they know that disobedience means life in prison or execution, most of those few will chicken out and do what they’re told.
Read “Death By Government”, by R. J. Rummel, more human beings have died at the hands of goverment than all wars put together. We don’t need more gun control what we need is politician control.
f–cking A! +10000000000
I must and do agree with the Marines onboard. The notion that we would engage our fellow citizens in combat as a means of enforcing some order to seize the firearms of Americans is well, Really? As a nine year veteran of the USMC and a 28 year veteran of Ca. law enforcement I have to say not on my watch. It’s impossible to keep your honor clean when you are oppressing the very people you’ve sworn to protect and defend. Be Safe and Semper Fi.
One more thought, we had better stand to against those who believe our rights a negotiable.Organize, put forth your time,treasure and passion in preserving what so many have sacrificed their lives to protect. We are standing on the shoulders of those we went before us,let’s not dishonor their memories by allowing those who would reduce us to mere subjects succeed.
Gosh, I’m so confused. All this time I thought that neoconservatives were people who advocated an aggressive foreign policy coupled with a leftist domestic policy.
Wouldn’t that put the ‘neo-cons’ on the side of Jim Karger?
This asshat is throwing the term “necon” around because he thinks that describes everyone that opposes gun control. He has no clue what it actually means. Hillary Clinton is one of the biggest neocons out there.
exactly. color me surprised. neo-cons are the ones that use the tactics that karger seems to mentally (or physically whatever) masturbate over. what is it with statists? then seem sexually aroused by suppressing dissent with military muscle and bragging to the noncollaborators of the state just how powerful the state’s instruments are.
The culture of the military can change slowly over time. That said, the military of today, and especially the combat arms battalions, would not fire against civilians regarding RKBA issues. The gun culture is very much alive in such units and I think they would sooner turn against their commanders. We currently have an Army loyal to freedom. What do you think would happen if a conservative Brigade Commander from Texas who believes in the RKBA was ordered to mobilize against Texans? I have known many O5’s and above who are strong Second Amendment supporters. More important than that, the average Joe in the field would have no interest in shooting their countryman. I would guess at least 3/4 of infantryman have their own personal weapons and at least 1/4 of them have AR-15s.
They won’t make it about RKBA… they’ll make it about “terrorism.” Our military has proven itself more than willing to follow orders, especially regarding “terrorism.”
I hope you’re right. But I’m not counting on it.
I think it’s only people who’ve been in the military or their family raised them to worship the military that have this idealized vision of the military as being too moral to follow orders.
Wouldn’t people who’ve been in the military be in a better position to know what people in the military are like?
No, because people who’ve been in the military A) think that they’re superior for having been in the military and B) have a reason to lie to use peasants about what their beloved military would do to us if commanded.
Wouldn’t people who’ve been brainwashed be in a better position to know what people who have been brainwashed are like? Well, no.
I would trust the military not get involved in the business of killing its own citizenry, and many would probably come to the peoples defense in such an instance, much like the military’s in the middle east did during their revolutions. It’s the LE agency’s in the U.S. that would be putting on the “brown shirts” and demanding your guns for the good of der Futherland. But remember that this exactly the type of situation for which the 2nd Amendment was created.
i don’t think the majority of the military or the police would side with a gun grab such as the author describes. our way to fight the grabbers is with voting. in regards to gun ownership things have, for most of the country improved greatly in the last 30 years. as for the agencies stocking up on hollow point pistol ammo, the time to worry is when they start stocking up on, 5.56,7.62,50 bmg, 40mm 203 rounds etc. you don’t take down the constitution with pistol rounds.
When the pay checks on the line,we will see whos who.Remember Katrina.
Google “Bonus Army” for just 1 example- Troops under orders WILL slaughter men, women and children, US citizens, INCLUDING veterans.
there were thousands of troops armed with rifles, machine guns and tanks and as many as 40 thousand bonus marchers involved. the fact that the casualty rate was fairly low shows that most of the troops involved didn’t have their hearts in it. people like to use this as an example of mindless military following orders. given that most of these troops stood by and did little what do you think would have happened if this had been a nationwide event and not just a local thing?
They were not ordered to fire, but would have if ordered. You also have to remember that Gen. MacAruther refused to stop assaulting the American people when directly ordered by his Commander and Chief, Pres. Hoover.
Yes, folks need to read history. In 1932 Army Chief of Staff Douglas MacArthur sent the army to quell Great War veterans who demanded their bonuses promised by the U. S. gub’ment. MacArthur burned the veteran encampment to the ground, and since many vets had their families with them some of their children were killed. I can’t emphasize enough… read history and one can see where our country is headed. Semper Fi
From a bit of Googling, it appears the bonus army was unarmed. (Please correct me if I’ve got that wrong.) I wonder how things might have gone if it were otherwise.
That depends. Big city cops, sure. Cops in small towns? No way. There’s no way for them to be anonymous, and I am quite certain if my local Sheriff’s Department started confiscating firearms, it wouldn’t be long before there were dead deputies with burned down homes.
100 deputies to police 100,000+ citizens isn’t nearly enough. Imagine trying to do confiscations when every household has a gun, and a sizeable percentage of residents are veterans…
I don’t know… those taliban have held out for quite some time.
Well, he is right. Sort of.
If we let whoever comes for our guns process us one at a time, we will all be dead or disarmed.
But if you get enough of your neighbors together who value their constitutional rights, and decide to intervene as a group when they come for the first of you, then only some of you have to wind up dead.
The police are not the military, despite their efforts in militarization. They train completely differently and have a different mindset. The military is constantly on guard for ambush and trains to heavily cover all the angles expecting an ambush everywhere they go. The police are told ambushes are possible, but will likely come from the direct vicinity of the target. They rarely encounter ambushes of any sort, and so don’t really train for or expect it. What does this mean, well it means at first if the police truly come for your guns (which I doubt will happen since if I was a police officer and told to confiscate all guns in my area I would resign on the spot out of fear for my safety more than moral obligation) they will expect an ambush from the house they are collecting from. The house across the street will see mostly, possibly entirely, the less protected backs of the officers involved. So, if you are organized as a neighborhood, and you have enough neighbors you trust to do the right thing, you can decimate a group of police sent to collect your 2nd amendment rights, as they will likely place themselves right in the middle of a kill zone for you. At least at first, but after it happens a few times the actual military will come (again assuming they follow that order), and the outcome will be completely different because they will be expecting ambushes and every dwelling opening or possible sniping spot will have multiple automatic weapons constantly scanning it waiting to destroy anything that mounts any sign of resistance.
I just hope no one is ever dumb enough to confiscate our 2nd amendment rights. Because it will lead to civilian deaths, and after enough civilian deaths there will be sheer anarchy and our great nation will implode. Few people like what happened at WACO, even though there were clear nutjobs involved. Fewer are ok with Ruby Ridge, which actually came much closer than most realize to a civilian assault on government forces. Imagine if you will several WACO (minus the nutjobs) and Ruby Ridge events daily. How long does the civilian populace stand for that? How long before wearing a uniform is akin to wearing a bull’s-eye? How long do you stand for that personally?
If someone wants to confiscate guns they will need to do it by slowly increasing the pressure to voluntarily hand your guns over. This will most likely come in the form of making keeping guns more and more costly and offering better rewards than the $50 that is typical at gun buyouts now. So instead of fearing the attack helicopters and tanks coming to haul off your safe with all contents included, fear the little changes that make owning guns more expensive and/or complicated. That is much more likely to be the way they try to part you from your guns. At least in my humble opinion!
How long do you think it would be before the media and the Internet gets locked down?
It’s hard to get pissed off about an event if you don’t know it happened.
The media wouldn’t get locked down. Internet yes, media no. Propaganda would be at it’s finest spinning the gun grabbing encounters into “Isolated Nutjobs Attack Police”, film at 11:00.
Want the people to revolt en masse?
Take away their Internet (especially considering how many people make their living off it, or in a job relying on it. How happy will Joe Public be when you tell him there’s no more Internet and he has to take a job at McDonald’s?)
Here’s the thing – gun confiscation has already been done. Less than a decade ago. In New Orleans after Katrina. The cops went door to door and asked people to surrender their guns. From what I understand, that went relatively smoothly. Lots of folks gave up their guns. I would suspect that this is how another confiscation program would likely take place. The gov’t is not going to send a battalion of soldiers into town to round up the populace. Rather it will be a couple of police officers knocking on your door asking for your guns. At that point, you either hand them over, tell the cops to FO or just start shooting. Options two or three probably mean you’d best pack up the family and get the hell out of dodge, ’cause the boys in blue will be back for you in force.
While I can certainly appreciate the sentiment of all of the armchair commandos out here, I’m not sure that given that situation, I’d be going out with guns blazing leaving my kids and wife to fend for themselves (if they don’t get caught in the crossfire). Me -I’d probably have hidden a portion of my guns somewhere off the property and then simply handed over the others with a smile to the nice officers. They’re happy and I’m if not happy, at least not as pissed as I would be if I gave them everything.
After that, I can assess and determine what the next step is secure that I am not totally disarmed.
And that is what has the elites’ testicles in knots.
A buyout plan takes time. Probably decades. We’re talking making a dent in ~280 million privately-owned firearms.
Frankly, I don’t think the government has that kind of time. The Ponzi scheme that is the American Government is possibly 4 months and almost certainly no more than 5 years from collapse. At $16+ trillion in debt with more than $100 trillion in unfunded mandates and two candidates running for president who will, at most, slightly moderate the speed of collapse, we should be considering anarchy a very real possibility.
Start by thinking: What will you do when every dollar you have is worth less than a penny? What will the government do when people refuse to pay taxes? What will the military do when their paychecks won’t buy food for their families? How will the USG respond to tens of millions of people who become modern “bonus marchers”?
I don’t have the answers to that – but I can remember the Rodney King riots which were just pissed off people running wild. Could be a lot more of that.
Your average Texan is probably 2x as heavily armed as your average Iraqi, and probably spends 2x or more time out practicing at the range than your average NYPD officer. All the body armor in the world won’t help against 100m headshots by civilians with range time and ACOGs.
All I can hope is TX will secede before they let federals go house-to-house confiscating or engaging in other jackbooted thuggery.
Also let’s not forget that the body armor their using won the contract with the lowest bid.
Wow. So this guy thinks every police officer, soldier and Marine would be so willing to abandon the oath they took to the Constitution and fire upon their brothers, cousins and neighbors? Don’t bother correcting the stupid in that one. He’s too far gone.
This was my thought, also. I hope most of our military would think twice before acting like Nazi Germany.
There have been over 100 incidents where US troops have fired on American civilians.
Great article. When will people learn the lessons of history? You can’t win a fight or against or even sustain a threat to the viability of the government with civilian firearms.*
Unless you’re the Shining Path, EZLN, FLN, FARC, IRA, LTTE, Stern Gang, Irgun Group, Hamas, Hezbullah, Communist Party (China / Empire of Russia / Eastern Europe), 26 July Movement [Castro overthrow of Batista], Contras, NVA, etc.
Is this article some sort of a joke? The historical record in the 20th and 21st centuries are replete with tons of examples of civilian movements and non-state actors rivaling the legitimacy and even viability of state police forces. Ever wonder why repressive regimes don’t just go into outright genocide mode? It’s because the second they do, they lose everything. Getting the state to overreact is point #1 in Guevara’s book on guerrilla warfare (a good read regardless of the man’s politics).
You may not be able to shoot down a fighter jet or carrier group with an AR-15. With that being said, local police and military (and more importantly their families) have to sleep sometime. I’m not even close to suggesting that the U.S. or anyone here is under a tyrannical system. I am saying that you’re seriously underestimating the impact armed populations can have against illegitimate state forces.
Not to mention the havok a small, dedicated force could wreak on the country in general.
How long does the country function if post offices get bombed?
How long does the country function when police can’t leave their homes for fear of reprisal?
How long does the country function when every politician is unable to go anywhere without an armored convoy?
A gun confiscation would lead to Civil War 2, a long, protracted, and bloody conflict. Would the military use its “big boy” weapons against the population(cruise missiles, etc)? Sure, if they want to become the pariahs of the world. Other countries will simply cease doing business with a nation that does such things, I think. Even the Europeans would not be okay with the wholesale slaugher of American citizenry.
I love that people that don’t understand guns, also don’t understand how insurgency works.
The idea that the police and soldiers would be mindless automatons and walk down the streets like jackbooted thugs doing whatever the state tells them is laughably naive.
The military and police forces are made up of people, people are fallible, and those said people have families and friends. How long can you effectively be a jack booted thug when your family’s life is at stake from other jack booted thugs or those you’re oppressing?
A large scale gun round up would NEVER work in the United States.
Can we inject just a modicum of reality here? The United States Marines are the good guys. You don’t need to think through scenarios of how you’d do battle with them.
I see your point, and second it. The military is largely full of people who volunteer to defend the freedom this great nation stands for, and I highly doubt that it would turn on the civilian population for any reason.
The Department of Homeland Security, not so much.
If the government ordered the Marines to storm civilian homes and raid them looking for Constitutionally protected items such as firearms, you could expect a mass defect of Marines. Most would likely disobey orders and if the shooting did start, they would side with the citizens. With them they would take their magical machine guns, armor, tanks, attack helicopters, and every other tool of the trade the author discusses.
I don’t know where these crazy liberals get the notion that the Marines would defy the Constitution and turn on the population to enforce their imagined unconstitutional mandates. They obviously never served a day in uniform.
I’m a Marine.
I’m a Marine, and now a CA LEO, and I approve of your message!
As a former Army Infantrymen, I always appreciated the company of Marines.
They are generally good guys and I will even go so far as to say that the Marine Corps is less likely to murder and oppress its own citizens than the Army is. The marines I know (including officers) take the constitution seriously. I mean seriously. There are a few commanders and soldiers in the army that im not as confident of, though the force at large will probably not take sides and protect military assets.
If it was true that they actually gave a rats ass about the Constitution, then they wouldn’t continue to blindly follow the orders of corrupt politicians who go out of their way to violate the Constitution.
Though the members of the military going around telling people that the military would never murder innocent people is a pretty good propaganda tactic (well, for people too foolish to realize that the military has a vested interest in lying to you…so most of the population would fall for it).
Check out this video on youtube, about 6 minutes into the video one of the cops remarks that when the president abides by the Constitution he will.
I was Air Force, and I can’t imagine things being much different with them, either. What could a squadron of patriots with F-16s do against an oppressive regime?
How many motivated USAF Combat Controllers would it take to bring an oppressive government to its knees? The US Spec Ops community(Combat Controllers, SEALs, Rangers, Delta, Force Recon, etc) are the best in the world, and tend to be highly patriotic individuals.
Right, because they work for the US government, so that makes them “good” in your eyes. But this is about the US government ordering their
trained dogsMarines to murder you because you “are a threat to the US government”. Your beloved Marines wouldn’t blink an eye at splattering your brains all over the place because their master commanded them to.
I’d take the Pepsi Challenge on that with any Marine I know, and any I don’t. The implication that the armed forces are a collection of mindless robots would be laughable, were it not so pathetic.
Right, because it’s not like we have plenty of evidence that they murder unarmed people because they’re told to. Oh wait, we do – including unarmed US citizens on US soil. Why are people so delusional to think that people who’s job is to murder anyone they’re told to wouldn’t murder THEM because we’ll they’re SPECIAL?
Remember, these are people who invade countries that pose no threat to the US, rape and murder innocent women and children, and then proceed to murder men because they have different religious or socio-economic views.
Hell, take an easier challenge – go to any military base and try to just walk in (it’s public property paid for by your taxes after all) and defend yourself (not initiate violence) when attacked by the guards. They’ll have no problem killing you because their owner told them that anyone without a badge / uniform is the enemy and must be killed.
I wrote Mr. Karger after reading his dissertation on Whiskey and Gunpowder a couple of weeks ago, I informed him that he underestimates most gun owners. Yes, some gun owners will acquiesce to Fedzilla and turn over their guns but I believe that many (most) will not. I also informed him that I am a former Marine and that I am a Constitutionalist and I am fully prepared to die fighting tyranny. I have the blood of my Irish ancestors pulsing through my veins… I loath tyranny!
Without maintenance workers, airplanes do not move.
Without armorers, M-4s and M-9s do not work.
Without fuel, tanks trucks and buses don’t run.
What the statists’ do not understand is that a gun confiscation effort directed against Americans means targeting the very people who keep this country running. A military unit can’t go far without food, fuel, bullets, and vehicles. Door to door fighting won’t be necessary; by the time any law could be enacted to seize arms, strikes and civil unrest would be high. Some police departments would outright refuse the order. And what military agency in the DoD operates without civilians? Ill answer that-NONE. Pass a confiscation law, and enough civilians in the DoD would walk that the military would be paralyzed.
Indeed the uniformed members would be on duty, but they won’t have money, gas, vehicles, or a reliable logistics chain. Some fearsome fighting force that’s going to be.
“Molon Laabe” will be an unnecessary chant.
Hey, Jim? Reality check time.
Suppose the Feds do decide to disarm the citizenry. There are, by most estimates, 80-120 million gun owners in the U.S. Let’s split the difference and say 100 million. I’ll grant that 90% of people are “sheep” and will willingly disarm. That leaves 10 million armed, angry and motivated gun owners. Remember that number. My side: 10 million.
There are roughly 700,000 uniformed LEOs in the U.S. Suppose 90% do as they’re told and attempt to confiscate privately held firearms, and the other 10% tell the Feds to pound sand. Your side: 630,000. My side: 10,070,000.
Ah, but what about the military, you say? Check it out. There are just shy of 3 million active duty and reserve troops in the U.S. military, and most of them are not shooters. Again applying the 90% hypothesis, your side gets 2.7 million troops. Your side: 3,330,000. My side: 10,070,000. Most of mine ARE shooters. And we’ve got military leadership, training and whatever our boys decide to “walk off” with when they come over to my side. And we’re on the less organized side of an asymmetrical war. And we’ve got the advantage in numbers.
Quite frankly, Jim, your side doesn’t stand a fvcking chance.
Stupid edit button.
How are you going to supply those 10,000,000+ shooters? How are you going to feed them and thier families, gas up your trucks, power your homes? The first thing the U.S. did when we invaded Iraq is bombed the utilities and high-value targets. They won’t have to bomb the power companies, or the gas refinerys or the water plants. They are the ones that control the switch. Lights-off , water lines cut, Roads blocked, shiping re-routed. You and starve they don’t have to fire a single bullet. An Army Marches on it’s Stomache, and the food in the grocery store won’t last a week. How can you feed 10,000,000 people for a month with no infrastructutre, and no logistics support?
We will fight regardless of supplies, i.e. food, water, and ammo. Read history.
But for how long? You can’t win if your dead or to starved to move.
“How are you going to supply those 10,000,000+ shooters?”
How were the patriots supplied during the Revolution? How are the Taliban supplied?
“The first thing the U.S. did when we invaded Iraq is bombed the utilities and high-value targets.”
Indeed. And I would be remiss if I did not point out that the country is far from secured.
“Lights-off , water lines cut, Roads blocked, shiping re-routed.”
Do you mean to say, and correct me if I’m wrong, that you believe that the Feds would condemn the entire country to such a fate? And that such action would not lead to even more people joining my side in this little hypothetical we’re exploring here?
Yep I mean to say. They did it before in the Civil War. Sherman’s Great March to the Sea, The Anaconda Plan; you cut off supplies to foreign armies and let them rot and starve. Your thought Experiment assumes every corner of the US is fighting at once, but that is not the case, there will be battle lines and those on the wrong side will be subject to import controls by the Feds.
The Patriots in the Revolution had the Home field advantage, the Controlling Army was realitically invading lands in moving inward. That left great swaths of country side to establish supply routes to the Patriot camps. You need to look at the Civil War. The North blockaded the Ports, Controlled the Mississippi and burned the field of the Southerners. This plan starved the rebels and prevented foreign goods or allies from importing supplies and troops to the South. Revolution wouldn’t spark across the enitre country at the same time, it would have to start at a central location. If it came to fighting, the U.S. Forces could neutralize and starve the area until the populace gave in and turned on the Rebel forces, and the U.S. Government forces could do it with very little man power and resources on the ground.
A pretty significant lesson can be learned in this hypothetical situation from Vietnam. It really is not that hard to open a can of guerrilla warfare on a vastly superior force, if you go with the concept of many groups of relatively isolated minutemen.
The numbers on either “side” are largely irrelevant. Even a few thousand motivated individuals could wreak absolute havoc, disappear into the trees, and rinse and repeat as necessary until the “other side” got tired of fighting. And while everyone’s grandmother with a rifle might not pick it up and start shooting, you can bet your bottom dollar they’d be sympathetic to said group of individuals.
Isoroku Yamamoto knew this simple fact quite a while ago, and that was before we had today’s small arms and everyone was walking around with a smartphone capable of strong encryption in their pocket.
Ultimately, you’ll find that the vast majority of people who got a knock on the door at three in the morning would indeed hand over their firearms. Of course, very little would keep the 10% of really pissed off former firearms owners from procuring new ones from a litany of sources, and using them.
Actually, that approach might work but for one thing: Now you’re not facing 10 million pissed off shooters. You’re facing 100 million pissed off shooters, and they’re going to come after you in waves and they’re going to kill your wife, your kids, your brothers and sisters, your masters, your servants, your dogs and finally, you!
My brother lives in Illinois. He had a DUI and weeks later a squad of heavily armed police in military gear showed up at his house and confiscated his gun. Note: the gun was at home in the safe at the time of his offense. Resisting them would have been suicide.
He has paid his debt to society and when he went to retrieve his gun he was told it was destroyed because they only store them for six months. He has hired a lawyer because he was told that he would be able to get his gun back at the conclusion of his case.
Back in the 90’s I read an article regarding a family that was targeted by a local law enforcement SWAT team, the problem was that the cops targeted the wrong address, the family’s firearms were confiscated and never returned.
Your brother needed to sell that gun out of his house after the DUI.
Are you saying that one misdemeanor DUI
Yea, he doesn’t understand that the Sheriff’s and Military took oaths to protect and uphold the Constitution, they would break that oath by trying to remove arms from citizens. His scenario will never happen, because those people ARE us, you and me and him.
I like to believe that most of us that took the oath to protect and defend the U. S. Constitution from all enemies both foreign AND domestic will honor our oath but I knew fellow Marines that were/are prone to follow orders no matter what and kill whomever, in Vietnam these Marines cut off ears and penises of Viet Cong and NVA. Just articulating my experience in life.
This isn’t a take your guns away right this minute proposition. The powers that be, understand the dynamics of resistance. They have been fighting insurgencies since the Philippines at the turn of the 20th century. You want food? You want water? Come to me….You want your sick baby daughter to get medical care? Come to me…You want to use your money in the bank? Come to me….You want a job? Come to me…
The proposition is one of coercion. Slow, constant, everywhere. Sooner or later, you’ll come to me. With today’s technology and 330 million people, the couple of knuckle draggers and dead enders will get taken care of. People always confuse the firefight with the war. Two different things entirely.
As for the mythical forces of freedom among the enforcers, well, where were they in Katrina when old ladies where getting pummeled to take away their .32 revolvers? Where were they when innocent folks were being gunned down on the bridge? Nah…there was never a shortage of concentration camp guards.
I like bringing out the example of Afghanistan as much as the next guy, but the truth is, the only reason it’s gone on for so long and the insurgents even mildly effective is because the US has been fighting a “nice” war for the media and international appeasement. If the US military put its full might and full arsenal into wiping Afghanistan and Iraq off the face of the map with no regard to civilian casualties or its own casualties, it would be like crushing an ant.
So, the question is, if/when the domestic conflicts flare up, will the state fight a nice war or go for an ugly, crushing blow. I tend to believe the latter: if it ever came to such a conflict, a few things would have had to take place, including the demonizing of us “insurgents” to the general public through mass media, resulting in fellow “countrymen” calling for “insurgents to be wiped out. And we all know how hard the general public is to fool and influence (sarc). And given that foreign countries couldn’t give two craps about what happens to our people, the foreign appeasement requirement is out the window…that is, if the UN goons aren’t already here to help the state. So, in that scenario, what exactly would be restraining the military from going all out?
That’s just what comes to mind. Likely, there are plenty of factors I don’t see or have overlooked, and American insurgents would be different than ME insurgents. Does any of this mean I’ll lay down and kiss the state’s jackboots like our buddy Karger here? No.
Haven’t we dropped more ordnance on the mideast by weight in the last ten years than was dropped in the entirety of WW2 or something like that? That’s hell of “nice” war you’re talkin about there.
Suicide bombing tends to be an effective method of resistance. But still to the same end I suppose.
The gun grabbers (aka people controllers) aren’t totally stupid. They won’t come at all of us at the same time to confiscate our guns. They will do as they’ve been doing. One step at a time – a little at a time. They’ve come after high cap mags. Saturday night specials. Snub nose revolvers. Assault style rifles. Assault style shotguns. “Cop Killer” bullets. What’s next? Have you heard of Fabian Socialism? Same principle. Gradual erosion of our rights. Gradually make more and more guns illegal. Give ATF more and more authority – or they may simply expand their authority on their own. (ATF (and DOJ) have already demonstrated that the law doesn’t apply to them.) ATF will further intrude into our privacy – whether allowed by law or not (think long gun sales reporting). Restrict sales of ammunition. Ban mail-order sales. It won’t matter if you still have guns. At some point (think England) you won’t dare take them out of the safe. If the authorities catch you with an illegal gun, or an improperly stored gun (think Canada) or an illegally transported gun (again, think Canada) they’ll confiscate all of them. Sure, they’ll come after the guns, but it will be gradual. One of us at a time. Compare our culture today with 40 or 50 or 60 years ago. We could take guns to school to shoot at the school rifle range! Compare ATF culture (and power) today with 40 years ago. Compare U.S. police culture and power today to 40 years ago. Imagine 20 or 30 or 40 years hence….. Remember that “The Price of Liberty is eternal vigilance.”
Which is why I’m cocked, locked, and ready to rock!
it will never ever ever come to this, but if it does, he’s right… He’s right for the same reason that I carry now, I have a family. If you want to take on the military and die, go for it, I’ll comply and live another day to take care of my family one way or another. you can run all the stats you want, but military v. civilians isn’t even a fair fight, not even close. If you want to die for a cause and leave your family to fend for themselves, that’s up to you, but don’t expect me to be getting in the suicide line with you.
“A single motivated man behind enemy lines is worth a thousand in front.”
That is a completely rational position and I wouldn’t encourage you otherwise. At the very least though, before your guns are confiscated, if you’re not willing to fight, please give them to those who are.
BAAAAA! BAAAAAA! It’s just rape, lie down and try to enjoy it.
One thing to keep in mind…
If it did come down to the state saying “give us the guns or you die” chances are that you (and likely your family) would be leaving your home along with the guns when the goons came.
Chances are this will have been happening for a while by the time they come for you, so you’ll know what to expect.
Once they have you in custody, they will do with you as they please… and with your wife and children as well. Remember that your (and their) “constitutional rights/human rights” would be out the window by then, along with the Constitution.
Knowing that, I think I just might choose to go down fighting, no “cause” necessary. We all have to die someday, and having nothing to look forward to but incarceration/forced labor (or at best a few more miserable, self-reproaching years of life) wouldn’t appeal to me very much.
And, a few million guys like myself might just prove to be a serious nuisance at least.
“First they came for the Socialists…”
Look on the bright side. After this happens, the 1st amendment will be next, and this D-bag will no longer be able to broadcast his ignorance across the interwebz.
“First they came for the Socia lists…”
Look on the bright side. After this happens, the 1st amendment will be next, and this D-bag will no longer be able to broadcast his ignorance across the interwebz.
BTW, what’s up with this spam filter? the word socia list is spam?
Don’t feel bad; so is ana lysis.
My family is grown,they can decide for themselves how they want to live. I can’t think of a more honorable way to die than fighting tyranny. It would not be for nothing.
I think people are failing to understand how this would go down. They’ll never launch an all out “take all the guns today” kind of assault. It will be nice and slow. Knock on the door, guys with guns and uniforms tell you to give them your guns, you either do it, or they come in and take them. Now tell me where in that scenario are you going to offer up the fight? going to shoot when they come to your door? going to shoot when they’re at your neighbors door? You’re going to be the one to take the first shot? No… you’re not…. and down the street they’ll go. Even if you’re dumb enough to take a shot, you’ve accomplished nothing other than suicide. It might start somewhere else, and you’ll read about it on a blog and get all excited, maybe start hiding guns, but sooner or later it’ll be stop and frisk everywhere you go, and those hidden guns aren’t going to do you much good. They’ll never get all the guns, but they’ll get plenty and create a situation where having them on you won’t be worth the prison sentence that comes along with it.
I honestly don’t even think this is up for reasonable debate. If the state decides to make guns illegal, that’s it. The fight takes place now in the courts and in the minds of public opinion. That’s the fight. Get over the notion of you and your buddies fighting a war for the right to keep your guns… Stop being the stereotype and start trying to be the exact opposite, introduce as many people to guns and shooting as you can, that’s your fight.
“guys with guns and uniforms”, actually I would say guys with guns and gub’ment issued costumes.
Of course, this assumes that nation-wide confiscation can take place before anyone gets wise to it and mounts a resistance.
Suppose they come down your street first, and you hand over your guns. Then you come to my street and tell my neighbors and they decide they’re not handing over their guns.
So when the cops come strolling down the street knocking on doors, at some point, they meet resistance. And as they focus on the house that’s offering resistance, all hell breaks loose behind them.
And then, they’re just dead.
Jim Karger is right, you try to fight the might of the US Gov in a head on fight and you will die with a gun in your hand. Realisticaly a Rebel force in America doesn’t even have the chances of success that the South had in the Civil war. The rebels won’t have an Air Force, they won’t have the Eye in the Sky, they wont have a Navy or Tank Corps. I tend to think that Rebellion would end the same way as it did for the Rebels, having to make the hard choice between starving to death or fighting another day.
We live in a 24hr On-Demand society. Most of us don’t have huge stores of Gas or Food. After the trouble starts, All the Government has to do is blockade roads, ports, airports, rivers and let the populace starve to death. The North did the same thing in the civil except when the Government does it this time, Sherman won’t have to march to the Sea. The Majority of the US isn’t an Argicultural society, we can’t feed ourselves, we dont have renewable energy, and our cars need gas. If the Government cuts off our ability to aquire these things then the rebellion stalls and we starve.
“Jim Karger is right, you try to fight the might of the US Gov in a head on fight and you will die with a gun in your hand. Realisticaly a Rebel force in America doesn’t even have the chances of success that the South had in the Civil war.”
-Which begs the question… would you rather die with a gun in your hand, or a d*ck in your mouth?
If it comes to the gov’t slaughtering civilians to keep its power, what kind of life are you going to have in the the new totalitarian sh!thole that follows? One worth living? I somehow doubt it.
Sucide by civilians
300,000,000 people in the US.
2,500,000 military and 800,000 (assuming all of these people turn against everyone else)
Can you count, suckers? I say, the future is ours… if you can count!
Uhhh. 800,000 police, state and federal. Oops.
Well, Waco’s Branch Davidians showed that he is probably right.
But not if more than just a church is involved. The second amendment is really only useful if THE PEOPLE, rather than a few odd balls, feel a need to take up arms.
I guess insurgents in Iraq and Afghanistan didn’t get the message before we embarked on a decade long campaign with the full might of our military to try to subdue them into using our system.
This whole scenario is dumber than the whole Zombie Apocalypse thing. People, the Undead are not coming to eat our brains, and soldiers in blue helmets are not coming for our guns. If our rights are taken away, it will be done incrementally. A snip here and a snip there, all in the name of “common sense.” That’s the way our government does it, and it’s very good at it.
As far as that 300 million citizens vs. 800 thousand soldier argument, it’s also just plain wrong. First of all, if those were the true odds, the gungrabbers would not have power in the first place. Second, babies and little children can’t fight. Old people can’t fight. And if history has taught us anything, it’s that half of the people who can fight will be very happy to turn on the other half if the benefits are there.
“it will be done incrementally.”
Which is exactly why I can’t stand that so many gun-owners submit to obtaining permission slips.
This is absurd and I pretty much agree with everything you said here, except the part about little children and old people. Not sure where your cutoff is for “Little Children”, and this is sad but it makes my point.
Up to 300,000 children are still involved in more than 30 conflicts worldwide, according to the UN Children’s Fund (UNICEF). Age also proved no barrier; in Columbia, the FARC militia announced it would recruit all children over the age of eight, reported the UN Secretary-General in April 2011.
Then there’s the video’s with elderly folks takin’ care o’ business on YouTube recently. Also I wouldn’t want to bet against the elderly vets from the Korean or Vietnam wars either.
While I would like to think that many police and military personnel would refuse to confiscate arms from the citizens, how do we explain the confiscations in New Orleans after hurricane Katrina? How do we explain the consistent practice of law enforcement personnel in the likes of Illinois, New Jersey, New York, and California who arrest every citizen who is openly armed (or even carrying concealed) in public — when those citizens have no criminal record and there is no reason to suspect that the citizens are about to commit a crime?
If what so many here are saying is true, then I should be able to walk around California, Illinois, or New York (especially New York city) openly armed. Sure, that won’t get me a free ride to the cross-bar hotel.
I think Ralph and others have a very valid point. This is a process. It takes time, and they chip away at you piece by piece. Just remember Hitler was a democratically elected official.
Let me make this important point regarding the upcoming election. If Obama is elected a second time, he will have nothing to loose. His only focus will be to put into place his ideology, either by executive order or some other method. He will also want to ensure that the next government election cycle will go in their direction, think photo ID for voting.
Besides the affordable health care act, we would expect to see the AWB to be reinstated, ammo purchase restrictions, magazine capacity, and bullet buttons thrown in as well. This will be done during a time when there would be a flurry of legislation pushing the ideology of the government to the people.
Many states will simply go along with all the changes, and in my opinion California would be jumping head first to get in line with the federal wishes.
Some states however, Arizona, Texas, and others will resist the changes. It will be driven by a desire to protect our Constitutional rights. Those states would then succeed from the federal government and the stage will be set for armed revolution.
This might be challenged prior however. If bands of law abiding citizens stand up and refuse. The first time there is bloodshed broadcast on live TV because a group of owners decide not to quietly give up their arms it should be a wake up call!
Many will probably side with government, and call the gun owners terrorists, even though they had never done anything wrong in their entire life.
Imagine if you will a local Sheriff is going up to a home with the ATF leading the way. The Sheriff’s own father comes to the door open carrying as he is allowed to do. the ATF shoots him on the spot, because you know he didn’t turn in his rifle as he was asked to do. What do think that Sheriff is going to do?
Same thing goes for any of our military. Yes soldiers follow orders, but they are bound by duty, honor to protect freedom. The first time they are asked to roundup a bunch of innocent civilians just because their choice of firearm doesn’t agree with the government we will see mass defections, and defiance. I will make the assumption the our LEO’s will do the same.
This doesn’t mean we have nothing to worry about. We have everything to worry about. It starts at home with your Sheriff, and local city counsel. Your state and federal are next in line with POTUS being last. Use your power of the vote to keep our freedoms where they belong, in our hands.
If it ever does come to armed resistance, than places like this, and other mass media will be critical to organize, and stand as a group, not individuals barricaded in our home.
but they are bound by duty, honor to protect freedom.
They are bound by law and threat of violence to do what they’re told.
totenglocke, in boot camp i had classes in the uniform code of military justice. we had it taught to us and read it in black and white that we were only obligated to follow lawfull orders. we were in fact obligated not to follow unlawful orders. too many courts have handed down the judgement that simply following orders is no defense in court. american soldiers are not raised in the hitler youth. we were not taught in school that it’s okay to kill because of race or religion. we were raised in those same cities and families that so many people on this site seem to think we would not hesitate to lay waste. i’ll never convince the tin foil hat crowd, but the truth is the truth.
Bullshit. We’ve had soldiers murder unarmed Americans on US soil multiple times in the past century on orders and they didn’t refuse. They also have no problem with murdering people in other countries that do not and have never posed a threat to the US, purely because they were told to and ever time it’s pointed out, they always hide behind “I was following orders”.
You can make up whatever nice stories you want to try to convince the sheeple, but history shows that you’re lying.
You have a much higher opinion of people than I do.
“The first time they are asked to roundup a bunch of innocent civilians just because their choice of firearm doesn’t agree with the government”
They will, They will do what they are told to do. They will round up men, women and children and load them into cattle cars and take them off to relocation camps. Guards in those camps will shoot to kill any that try to escape. Those that do not have money or influence to buy their way out, will die in these camps. Food, medical care, sanitation will not be a high priority in the camps. I am old enough to have met people with numbers tattooed on their forearms. YES, this can happen here.
i have met the people that lived through the camps also. but to compare the conditions of pre war nazi germany to what we have now in this country is a real over reach, imho. americans bleed over the children suffering in all those places where rule of law barely exists. do you honestly believe they will just stand by and watch while large portions of americans are starved and abused? i still have a little faith in my people.
I hope I am wrong and you are right.
If the average voter wasn’t dead from the neck up already, it would be Ron Paul running against Obama, and a real chance to restore liberty in America.
Sadly, recent research shows (and I am not making this up) that the average voter can usually detect a horrible choice of policy or candidate, but lacks the mental acuity (and knowledge) to differentiate between an average policy/candidate and an outstanding one. Thus, Romney, Bush, Obama, McCain and Paul are all seen as pretty much the same, so when the press says, “Vote for Romney and Obama” people do.
Worse, the people who don’t have a fricking clue what they’re voting for or against don’t even know they lack the brains to make an intelligent decision. These are the people who don’t know, and don’t know they don’t know. They are fools. (Shun them! http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Who_said_'Those_who_know_and_know_that_they_know_are_wise_follow_them‘ ) Unfortunately, they are also the majority. Remember, half of the population has an IQ below 100.
Which raises the question: After watching the Country descend into a putrid cesspool, is there anything left to save? $16 trillion in debt? $100 trillion in unfunded mandates? The Constitution ignored and mutilated by devious men? SAT scores in uniform decline for 40 years? A Country where honesty and self-reliance were once valued now a Country of free-loaders and rap-star sycophants?
Perhaps the best you can hope for is to look out for yourself and yours.
Ron Paul is the only candidate who had an actual plan to balance the budget, who had specific stated goals to downsize government and whose presidency would not have consisted of a whole series of undeclared wars.
That he won’t be nominated should be the most frightening indication of where our Country is headed – for four more years of the same, regardless of whether Obamney or Romama is elected. Four more years of debt, decay, division and destruction. That ought to be about enough to extinguish America.
I could give a damn less what our government thinks or does! Come and get them!
Well of course I’m not going to “take on a platoon of Marines with state-of-the-art automatic weapons and the best body armor you cannot buy protected by armed personnel carriers and attack helicopters”. I’m going to meekly turn over several of my guns (the ones I haven’t “sold” over the years) and that is that. I would never dig up an unregistered Mosin-Nagant that I picked up from a private seller for cash, take it to the park next to my U.S. Senator’s house and drop the bitch from 430 yards out. That would be illegal!
I would never track down a quisling journalist and, operating under Bill Clinton’s expanded rules of engagement*, execute him for supporting the genocide of gun owners.
And I am sure no one would ever target the law enforcement bureaucrats and leadership who gave the unConstitutional orders to disarm law-abiding Americans.
* In 1999 Slick Willie expanded the ROE in Serbia to include “the political leadership, news media and the intellectual underpinning of his enemy’s war effort”
I see that you’ve taken your Vanderboegh to heart Bruce. You’re not alone.
Should the day ever come (and I don’t think it will in my lifetime) when these statist quislings have their wet dream finally come true, I suspect that they’ll be quite surprised when it doesn’t play out exactly as they’ve envisioned.
You forgot to mention that there aren’t a lot of retired military trained snipers since Korea either!
I’ve been a cop for almost four decades, and I’m an Army veteran. My son is an Army veteran (infantry) with two tours in Iraq. We have discussed this little scenario before. We both have stated that if “they” come for our guns they had better bring more than two body bags.
I don’t know any police officers or military (former or current) that would enforce such an order. Granted, I don’t know them all. However, my son and I swore an oath to defend the constitution “against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” If it turns out the government is the enemy, well, I personally know a lot of popo and military who believe in “Give me liberty or give me death.”
Don’t wait for them to come to your door. Wait in ambush at their door.
Hey dufus,tell that to the cave dwelling primitive Taliban without body armor, scattered widely around the country. The panty wetter that wrote this believes that a few hundred thousand well armed tyrannts can subdue a nation our size with 100 million armed wil learn something. Turn over your arms, get exterminated, don’t turn them over take some with you.
If citizens have no chance against government, why was there such panic when one man wore a handgun on his hip while protesting ObamaCare in New Hampshire?
If something like this were to go down the IRA would be a better example than say the Taliban or VC in my opinion.
Mr. Karger fails to take into account that from it’s inception, our military’s ultimate purpose was and is to fight for the freedoms and safety of American citizens. The vast majority, if not all of those in the military, would never allow themselves to be used as instruments of tyranny against American citizens. I can say first hand that the same would be true of law enforcement. They’d quit their jobs before they’d engage in tyranny against the people they took an oath to protect. Therefore, Mr. Karger is either delusional or he’s intentionally just trying to stir the pot. In either case, he’s dead wrong.
Are you kidding me with that ” I don’t know any police officers who would follow these orders to disarm the public” stuff? Cops love oppressing and intimidating the public. Anyone, anywhere, anytime! Why do you think most of the little creeps became cops in the first place? They’re pretty much all of the same mentality that really enjoys subjugating others. Terrorizing people. Most are mindless little despots who wouldn’t give a second thought to obeying such orders for a nano-second. Really! Don’t kid yourselves. Cops are not our friends. They’re just another necessary evil unfortunately.
Yeah, kinda reminds me of those little guys in black pajamas with AK-47’s fighting the mighty U. S. gubment, we all know how that war ended. It’s NOT a foregone conclusion that “they’re” taking our guns because when gub’ment thugs show up at my house wearing a gub’ment costume with badges to try to take my guns they’re getting a M-14 wedged squarely up their butts!
sorry guys, you are all wrong, sort of. the united states military of today is made up of 34 per cent of foreign nationals, they are serving just for the green card. many are former gangbangers from south of the border who enlist just to learn the tactics of their enemies. how many people realize that muslims now make up all the services, ranging in jobs from special forces to security details guarding our nuclear weapon stockpiles. here is how it goes down. first, it won’t be the military and police alone, it will be tens of millions of hostile blacks and hispanics. these people will be armed to the teeth by the side who promises them the goodies. remember that private security police force obama wanted for the nation. well there it is. now given, most police and military will resist, at first. cops always follow the side that seems to be winning. even if most military revolts there still are more than enough washington loyalists in uniform to insure maximum punishment directed against the populace. yes, millions will die, but that matters little to those in power because those in power already have very strong backup. that’s right boys and girls, millions of russians and chinese working under the blue helmets of the united nations will be brought in. you say our boys would oppose this? what if the govt has the nukes under their control? do you realize how few in the miltary have control of the nuclear arsenal? do you realize how easy it is to move and transfer enough people in who will follow whatever order you give them? remember the first 9/11 attack happened because an egyptian soldier had transferred into the us army special forces and used the training he recieved to launch that attack. look it up. ever wonder why we have green berets in the west bank training the palestinian police forces? ever look up how many of these guys later used their training to kill our boys in iraq and afghanistan? we have the worst of all worlds now folks, a president who is not loyal to the country, who is caught on an open microphone asking the russians to give him more time. time for what? people, listen up, racial strife is being used to make people go nuts, banks will soon collapse and tens of millions more will be out of work. this is the plan. that way, when we do revolt, they retreat back to their bunkers and simply start nuking cities until people have had enough. then people, hungry, scared, cut off, will believe anything they are told and will gladly sell you out for a morsel of bread. if you can, locate and talk to an oldtimer who grew up in the early days of nazi germany and communist russia. those where once christian nations full of happy well educated types too, and funny, it always seems to be the ivy league classes of the world, with all the bennies and non of the responsibilities, who wind up betraying their fellow countrymen. so, ladies and gentlemen, if when the order is given to disarm, and you do plan to fight, then make it count. take no prisoners and be willing to slaughter men, women, and children from the other side, because in such a war, no quarter will be asked and none given. the side who wins is usually the side who is most prepared, numbers may not mean as much as most of you think.
Maybe we’ll just have to take a page out of the Iraqi playbook. Can you say IED’s? If such a scenario were to occur, most people would not be stupid enough to try and take on troops in a head to head battle. Instead, we’d have to blend in with the rest of the population and pick and choose when to attack, using ambush and guerilla warfare type tactics, such as was done in the movie Red Dawn. Or to quote Mel Gibson in The Patriot; “Going muzzle to muzzle against redcoats in an open field is madness. This battle was over before it started.” The colonists then proceeded to use guerilla warfare tactics against the British, and it was highly effective, in fact they won the war! So even if they tried to take all our guns, they would never succeed, there’s just too many people spread out over a large area. They’re not going to kill off 300,000,000 people. Same thing in Vietnam. The US military was the most powerful in the world, most of the Vietnamese were poor peasant farmer type people, yet they could not be defeated. They simply formed the Viet Cong and that’s what caused most of the problems for the US military, much more so than the NVA regulars. The problem with the Viet Cong was that they were everywhere, you couldn’t distinguish them from the rest of the civilian population, and it didn’t matter whether you were in Siagon or North Vietnam. You could never tell when they would strike next, that’s what made them so deadly. If our own government were to be foolish enough to try and confiscate our weapons, this is what they would have to deal with here.
I could care less about the rantings of some bowel sucking maggot. The natural state of helicopters just like all aircraft is to slam into a giant smoking hole in the dirt.When I wasa 17 yr. old I spent countless hours guarding these places until the medics and undertakers finished scraping the rotting piles of flesh up and deposited in a box for the next of kin.I even found a flying boot with a foot in it one night. This big mouths buddies won’t find any rat killing tupperware at my house though. If I get harrassed by black unlit helos in the night I’ll give this jackass and his frieneds a lesson in physics that will make it to prime time. I don’t worry about redneck cops since I’ve seen Wv.troopers dumped into the fed pin for just the kind of crap this bigmouth is in love with.REMEMBER THIS… There are less than a million of them and 33o million of us. Does the word CUSTER mean anything to ya JACKASS?
How does he assume the absolute, unquestioning loyalty of his shock troops? Many people faced with hopeless odds will surrender, but a minority will put up a truly suicidal effort. The Afghan held off three empires, yet remain one of the poorest countries in the world. How a comparatively rich, technically skilled, well armed populace of 300+ million could be subjugated through Gestapo tactics escapes me. Guerrilla warfare, attacks to weapons manufacturing and supply lines, disruption of the food supply, and desertion of units will make such a war nearly impossible. Many would die: such is the nature of revolutions. But conquer us all? Impossible. They could kill everyone with nuclear weapons, but the elites don’t want to inherit a smoking, destroyed, dead and irradiated country. They can’t stand having nobody to push around. And the soldiers? Eventually, deserting is safer than being killed in a horrific manner by partisans.
They can’t kill ALL of us. Who would they rule?