Start with this: a stone can be a deadly weapon. Same goes for a “simple” fire bomb. “Though the Israeli military does not disclose details about its rules of engagement, citing security concerns, standing orders are said to limit the use of live ammunition by soldiers to situations that they deem to be life-threatening,” nytimes.com reports. Seems clear enough. Only when is stone and/or bomb throwing a nuisance and when is it a “deadly threat”? And how could new “rules of engagement” make that distinction clearer? I reckon they can’t. But that isn’t stopping the Israelis from taking action, in light of increased attacks in Palestinian neighborhoods (autoplay video after the jump) . . .
On Wednesday, Israeli firefighters and police and border officers rescued Palestinian residents atop a burning building in Issawiya in East Jerusalem. As the firefighters and officers left the scene, they were attacked with stones, according to the police, and an Israeli woman was injured last month when a firebomb set alight a car in which she was traveling close to Route 443. Nine Palestinians from Beit Hanina — four of them minors — were charged in the firebombing . . .
Palestinian officials and human rights groups denounce what they view as an already excessive use of live fire by Israeli forces. Al-Haq, a human rights organization based in the West Bank city of Ramallah, has said the killing of Palestinian civilians is the result of a “climate of impunity granted to Israeli soldiers.”
An Israeli brigade commander came under scrutiny in July after he fatally shot a Palestinian, 17, who threw a rock at the windscreen of the commander’s jeep, smashing it. At first the military said that the commander had opened fire because his life was in danger. But surveillance footage released later by Btselem, an Israeli human rights group, appeared to show the boy being shot as he ran from the jeep.
According to Btselem, 12 Palestinian minors were shot and killed by Israeli forces during protests and clashes in the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 2014. Several Israelis, including children, have been killed or injured as a result of rocks or firebombs thrown at cars on West Bank roads in recent years.
The big difference here is accountability. Despite the implication of a coverup (the video was released after the investigation), Israeli soldiers are held accountable for their actions – in extremely difficult situations. The Palestinian authorities have no qualms about attacks on Israeli citizens or soldiers. You might even say they encourage them.
Still, the headline here should be that the Israelis are “creating legislation that would impose minimum sentences on youths convicted of such actions.” Whatever else you want to say about the only democratic government in the Middle East, there’s no doubt that they strive to live according to the rule of law. Remember that the next time you hear of a terrorist attack or ISIS atrocity.
Molotov cocktails are improvised anti-tank weapons and as such are deadly weapons. If you use a deadly weapon against someone they ought be allowed to reply in kind. For example if you were to threaten me with one I would shoot you.
^^ Right there with you.
If I was firebombed, I would embrace the miscreant, empathize with him and offer him a full scholarship to Carnegie Mellon. Which he would be able to attend the instant he emerged from his coma.
Make it Devry they can start much sooner.
If you throw a firebomb at a car full of people and are shot while running away is that excessive force? Do the intended victims have to wait 5, 6, 10 attacks until you get it right and kill somebody before they have a right to stamp “The End” on your medical records?
I had heard in days gone by that the Isrealis were using .22LR to surgically strike rock and bomb throwers. A .22 in the leg or arm is a damn good object lesson.
If you defend yourself against a group of people who are systematically decimating your affinity group, is that excessive force?
Your outlook is dependent on your perspective. Your perspective is dependent on your base-case assumptions. Your basic assumptions can be manipulated by the way a question is worded Control the question and you control the narrative.
For extra-credit points please tell me who think are the aggressors and who are the ones being aggressed upon.
Anybody throwing rocks and firebombs at me is the aggressor. They stop and I stop.
If the (terrorists) laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be no more fighting in Israel.
If the Israelis laid down their arms tomorrow, there would be no more Israel.
Its as true today as it was in 1948.
Israel’s stated goal: To be left alone.
Muslim militant’s stated goal: to “drive the Jews into the sea”.
There is no ambiguity here.
looks like a normal Saturday night in Chicago….whats the problem?
Yeah, the Israelis have to live next to the Palestinians and Indiana has to be next to Chiraq with Gary as a buffer zone. So what?
This is a tactic by the Pali’s to contest Israel’s claim of all of Jerusalem as the Israeli capital.
The Arabs want to claim East Jerusalem as theirs. By causing the Israelis to venture into EJ for fires, disturbances, etc, the Arabs suck the Jews into a no-win situation. The Jews can win tactically, and fail on PR, or win on PR and lose tactically.
There’s a limited range of options to solve this. One of the possible solutions is to suck the Pali’s into engagements where the Pali’s thought they were going to have the upper hand, then quietly kill the Pali’s. After awhile, the Pali’s will grow tired of getting zapped for no PR gain…
I’d be inclined to wipe out most of Palestine. That wouldn’t be a PR thing, but a good tactical move be. I’m searching for the nicest way to call Palestinians anti-Semtic dirtbags and not coming up with anything particularly PC.
1/ Most Palestinians are semitic. You should rethink your use of the phrase “anti-semitic”. 2/ Why do you feel the need to be politically correct? Surely there is room for dissenting thoughts and beliefs in today’s world.
3/ Something that is tactically correct/effective may not be morally correct, you should re-examine the reasons why you might want to “wipe out most of palestine”.
Bonus fun fact: a significant percentage of “Palestinians” are Christians, does that change anything for you?
Riiiight. Palestine shows their tolerance of Israel by refusing to acknowledge their existence and by constant acts of violence. I think you may want to re-think your stance.
Israel isn’t looking at any easy answers, but shooting a firebomber / Molotov cocktail thrower is the exception to that.
“why you might want to “wipe out most of palestine”
Because it’s a shit hole, with very little to redeem it, encroaching on one of the few imperfect but non-shit holes in the where people can live decently (including Palistinians). There is nothing moral to humanity being used as a weapon; the sole purpose of the Palistinian presence there is to outbreed and take over Israel, that’s always been the plan. Even if it involves grinding poverty, inhuman hopelessness, and a pointless life & death for the average Palistinian. A group with like 80% unemployment, high birthrates, no industry besides foriegn-sponsored terrorism, no resources or wealth but for foriegn wellfare (much of it Israeli). A ‘nation’ of bums that every last one of their ‘brother’ Muslim nations will readily machinegun to prevent their immigration.
a significant percentage of “Palestinians” are Christians,
Most of the Christians have left so it is okay to carpet fire bomb the place.
“…A ‘nation’ of bums that every last one of their ‘brother’ Muslim nations will readily machinegun to prevent their immigration.”
Insensitive, and not how I would put it, but not inaccurate. Israel is the only place in the middle east where basic civil rights are recognized. Granted, your civil rights are likely to be suspended when you launch rockets at civilians from your backyard.
As was stated nicely above – the sole existence of the “Palestinian” aggressors is to force Israel into a no-win situation. Its middle-school playground tactics: I’m going to push you over and over again until you push me back, and then I’m going to run screaming to the principle (the Media/UN) with bloody-shirt-waving tales of your “brutality”.
Accur81 wrote:
Riiiight. Palestine shows their tolerance of Israel by refusing to acknowledge their existence and by constant acts of violence. I think you may want to re-think your stance.
Israel isn’t looking at any easy answers, but shooting a firebomber / Molotov cocktail thrower is the exception to that.
************************************************************************
I’m having to cut and paste and “reply” to your first posting because there doesn’t seem to be a reply link to your reply to my reply to your posting.
In reply to your reply pasted above; so we seem to be in a chicken-or-the-egg situation here. Except, you seem to believe that the Palestinians’ actions are somehow vicious and the Israeli’s actions are virtuous. You haven’t said (so far) why the above is true (if indeed my read on your belief is correct)
That said, you say that maybe I may want to rethink my stance. Okay, I’m willing to rethink my stance. Except… I haven’t stated what my stance is. What do you presume my stance to be?
That last part of your response seems to be a pragmatic one; go ahead and shoot the immediate threat. Fine, it will work to stop the immediate threat. But we don’t just live in the present. Our actions today lead us into the future. Can you suggest something different from the present MO? I mean something that will reduce the violence from both sides?
I know you’re in the job so this may not have been part of your initial training. Give it a try anyway; 2nd and 3rd order effects will become more important as you mature professionally. I don’t mean this disrespectfully, I know you work at a difficult and dangerous job and you generally keep your cool when you’re responding in these forums. Just my two bits worth.
How about the fact that it was the Arabs who invaded Israel several times rather than the other way around? Quite frankly, Israel would be fully justified in removing all Palestinians from the territory. If the Arab League want to support their violence, they can support them in their own territory.
@pwrserge Have you done any research on how Israel was founded?
How would you feel if GB and the UN decided to kill off a million Americans (to scale the numbers) and create a “nation” for a group that has no “home” within the US? The Pals and Arabs are pissed for that very reason. If you think carpet bombing is going to fix the issue, you are mad, stupid, or a combination of both.
There’s no easy answers, and I’m not pretending that I’ve got a peaceful solution to Israeli / Palestinian conflict. Hope that helps. I’ve got to get back to a pursuit report involving a murder suspect.
It’s obvious they are doing this in such a way as to make the Israelis look like the bad guys… lob one deadly missile then run away, so…”You can’t shoot me in the back, I was running away!”
If I get one “free” shot every time I want to engage, and know you won’t strike back until I look like I am about to take the second shot of the engagement, I will beat you every time. Just takes patience.
As an aside, the video is autoplay.
Coming to the US in short order….
We are already there.
Oh it’s here. I can think of several videos from Ferguson and Baltimore where rioters threw rocks or bricks at police employees, then immediately raised their hands in surrender, as if that makes the PD somehow not justified in reciprocating the lethal force.
Don’t want to get shot then don’t throw rocks and flaming bottles of gas at vehicles filled with police or military. Seems simple enough. The days of Israel caring what the rest of the world thinks should have ended the day our government said it was dealing with the largest sponsor of terror in the world.
Two of Niven’s Laws:
1) Never throw shit at an armed man.
2) Never stand next to someone throwing shit at an armed man.
(Though I suspect he was thinking of some of the sixties college riots when he wrote this.)
These laws are axiomatic. The particulars of which moron is throwing stuff is irrelevant.
lol Palestinian human rights group….. oxymoron. “We can decapitate people and throw suspected gays off rooftops, but if you shoot at us for throwing molotov cocktails and stones at you then you are a barbarian!!”.
Sharia logic at its finest.
Didn’t watch the video. As soon as it auto loaded I blocked it. Anything interesting?
Autoplay videos are not ok…
Just kill them and throw them into the provided bin. Thank you.
You forgot to drop the mic.
i don’t know if they will but they ought to, just as they ought to reclaim Gaza, Judea, Samaria, East Jerusalem, and the Temple Mount.
Now they have Putin backing Assad on the ground in Syria, which means cutting a break to Hezbollah, Israel’s main northern border threat.
And a weak Obama can’t and won’t do a thing about it.
Add the Iran deal which empowers, emboldens, and re-arms Hezbollah, while simultaneously forcing Isreal to take of the gloves, and frees them from the bulk of political considerations aimed at appeasing the Obama administration, and you have recipe for quite the party. A regular Jubilee as a matter of fact.
I know. I read it.
In a book.
Let’s get something straight: You don’t throw stones and flaming objects at police, military, or hell, civilians, to see if it tickles. They do it to cause harm, and they have no qualms with killing.
You throw a rock to cause harm, you stand the risk of being shot at. Simple, and fair, enough.
Remember this when things begin to break down here and you decide you’ve had enough when the gov begins to lock down the streets and you want to protest your restriction of movement.
Remember this when another natural disaster like Katrina happens and another sweep to confiscate weapons occurs.
If you want to spout off about a group you know nothing about except what the media lets you see, you are just professing your ignorance, and running off of emotion like the people you demonize for wanting to take away your guns. Until you understand the reasons they are fighting a much better armed and trained adversary, in the face of almost inevitable defeat, you will just remain a puppet for the state, and fight to justify their atrocities.
So you’re equating Pali’s with Americans? Nice straw man you have there. Be a shame if something happened to it.
No, I am equating them to human beings, which I hope you can see.
Rambeast, I haven’t seen it demonstrated. Are these film clips supposed to open my eyes? They look a lot like jihadis from here, and jihadis are definitely subhuman.
Surrounded by 200 million enemies and they are expected to assume the position and take it. Soon(very soon) it’s going to change. How’d that exit from Gaza work out? Oh well-I read the book-unfolding before our very eyes. How could it be worse if the Jewish state shot every “demonstrator”?
Civil disobedience often has a price to pay. If you want to play, you might have to pay.
I’m sorry but I have no sympathy…
That could just as well read “Taking someone’s property by force often has a price to pay… I have no sympathy”.
Except, I do have sympathy; for both side in this conflict. I have Israeli Jewish friends and Palestinian friends (both Christian and Muslim). One of them jokingly suggested intermarriage as the only long-term solution.
In a polarized and uninformed world that suggestion doesn’t sound so strange.
Has been happening for awhile now. Genetic testing has been done on Palestinians and Jewish Israelis and there are common ancestors (plural – not just Abraham) on both sides. Forced sex might account for some of it but not all or even most.
Um… Civil disobedience does not include violence, by definition. What you have there is just plain terrorism.
Agreed. Violence (or threat of violence) to move forward a political agenda/aims is terrorism.
Remember the Stern gang?
I have no sympathy for either side when it engages in violence.
What makes the Israelis’ actions virtuous and the Palestinians’ actions vicious?
They are defending themselves from a promise to push them all into the sea. No such threat has been made against the savages.
Mr Farago
Start with this: an economic blockade can be a deadly weapon.
Sort of changes the complexion of things doesn’t it?
A constant barrage of rockets into populated areas has consequences. Does that change YOUR attitude at all?
Don’t throw firebombs or rocks at people with guns.
Really, don’t throw them at anyone. Unless you have decided you are willing to harm someone. In which case why shouldn’t they harm you?
The number of Palestinian Christians have fallen drastically with time!!!! why??
watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hr34o2rU8Rw
watch this respected Rabbi expose Zionism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoZ-BylXYoo
Pali please! This is just the Islamic version of Hasbara. Christians are persecuted in Israel and in Palestine. Persecution of non-Muslims goes to the heart of Islam as it is found in the Koran and in the Sunnah of Muhammad.
It seems to me that at this point, every act of violence in that region can be justified (validly or not) by a previous act of violence from “the other side,” going all the way back to Biblical times and likely before. All sides have historic claim to the land, all sides have historic grievance with the others. There is very little good vs evil here in the deep picture, rather mutual hatred. (Leaving aside the whole ISIS thing; that’s another discussion.)
I do not see a solution that is “fair” to everyone, or even a majority. There have been times when a peace deal seemed possible but one side or the other wanted it all – I seem to recall the PLO rejecting one that was about 90% of what they wanted, for instance.
There has been enough bad behavior towards the US from all sides, however, that I have a hard time finding sympathy for any side in this mess.
John
Thank you for presenting a reasoned response. I have friends on both sides and refuse to favor one over the other. I want peace for both sides.
Oddly enough, it is my American jewish friends (with almost no exceptions) who are the most uninformed about the reality of daily life in both the administered zones and the free zones. It is the Israelis who are more truthful about the woeful history that is being made in the present; yes, there is vice on both sides.
I say that not to sway anyone on the basis of emotion or personal appeal to authority, just to present my own anecdotal view and gently suggest that there is a possibility that the more rabid posters might be wrong about what is going on. More importantly, about why all this is happening.
Thank you again.
Continuity Check:
Remember all the “Muslims not allowed stuff” & TTAG reporting on it? Crap like this is why.
Darn near every time a Muslim commits an act of violence he or she (usually a he) has to get all “Takbir” about it. Was there ever a firebomb lobbed by a Muslim without the accompanying words, “Allahu Akbar”?
Seriously, its like a rule or something. And Kaffirs start putting 2 and 2 together. When you get Muslims uttering this same prayer when they are assaulting Jews in Israel, Christians in Africa, Hindus in India, Buddhists in Thailand, Atheists in Russia, Muslims in Syria, etc. etc. a picture starts to develop.
Maybe they were just believing the taqiyya until it was so obvious it couldnt be ignored 🙂
Good post, probably not PC enough for some of those here who refuse to admit this isnt an isolated problem or that it isnt directly caused by an ideology that teaches subjugation of all others and rule by the sword. Sure there’s no group ever where 100% of all the members inside are evil/good, Ill totally agree with that all day, specifically in posts like JWT’s, I fully recognize that there are muslim folks who hate the radicals just as much as we do and put their lives on the line to fight it.
But my opinion forever changed when I heard with my own ears, people who on paper are as just as “American” as me, say they would rather live under sharia in the USA.
Every Muslim is a Gray Man. Treat them as such.
From NIVEN’S LAWS 2002 EDITION
“1a. Never throw s*!t at an armed man.
1b. Never stand next to someone who is throwing s*!t at an armed man.”
Worth reading: http://www.larryniven.net/stories/nivens_laws_2002.shtml
Actually, the Palestinian governments organize, fund, and execute terrorist attacks on civilians themselves. Please be explicit about the truth, RF.
Whoever blurred the faces of the terrorists in the video to protect their anonymity is guilty of a war crime. If some terrorist threw a molotov cocktail at me simply because I was drafted by my country into guard duty, that’s lethal force and I would return fire with the unspoken hope that I kill them so they don’t live to murder anyone else. The Israelis show enormous restraint because Jew haters worldwide eagerly await any opportunity to condemn the actions of Israelis. Bad weather? Shark attacks? Israel’s fault. (That really happens. You can look it up.) Rock slings are absolutely lethal weapons, commonly used in ancient warfare. It’s a difficult situation to respond to such an assault. In the wrong context, responding with lethal context wouldn’t look appropriate. I wouldn’t mind the deaths of those teen terrorist scum hurling rocks at civilians for the “crime” of being Israeli, but for political reasons I’d probably pelt them with beanbag rounds and tear gas rather than bullets.
Didn’t see any Jewish folk CHEERING after 9/11…and how can you steal land(or a “nation”) that NEVER belonged to the so-called palestinians. Jewish people bought much of the land at exorbitant prices from absentee landlords living in the Ottoman empire(they were happy to sell as the land was considered worthless desert).
it would be better to announce use of deadly force against these actions before implementing it.
Never, ever, except in the case of REAL lethal force where many civilians are present, advise them to leave within 2 hours, then cut loose. In the current conflict, even if they want to, they won’t be allowed to, because the nutbars think they are safe with innocents surrounding them.
NO MORE FUCKING AUTOPLAY!!!!…… I’m not going to come to this site anymore if you are going to fucking hide fucking autoplay bullshit in pages (after you said you’d stop!!!). People open articles they want to read in DOZENS of tabs and autoplay audio thumping my sub with jihadi bullshit IS FUCKING NSFW STOP BEING EVIL TTAG.
Fair use it to your own youtube account if you need a specific vid that you can only find via an autoplay link.