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Not M855 ammo (courtesy

Posted above the Washington Post story, The NRA, even more ridiculous than usualIt seems incredible that a mainstream media outlet that’s as virulently anti-gun as the WaPo wouldn’t have one person on their news staff who knows thing one about firearms, cartridges, magazines, armed self-defense, ballistics, law enforcement and related subjects. But then as we know here at The Truth About Guns, the truth about guns does not support the anti-gun position. So, willful ignorance? Probably more to do with the corporate culture. The odds of the Post hiring a gun rights advocate – Eugene Volkh excepted – are lower than the chances of Barnes banning bullets.

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    • Click through to the nearly 1500 comments on the WaPo article. I read the first 50 or so. They are well done and very thorough in debunking the article’s many falsehoods.

      Best one: “The AR-15 pistol is about as concealable as a toaster.”

    • Off the top of my head I suspect that in their overwhelming ignorance about guns and ammunition some pantie-wetting copywriter, after he got over the vapors from having to look at the picture of all that murderous ammo, mistook the “85 GR” to mean 85 green. Either that or they couldn’t be bothered to do a Google search for a picture of the real thing and assumed nobody who reads their fish wrap would know the difference.

  1. If I had a 5.56 rifle it would prefer 45-55 grain bullets, but I would rather have those barnes than m855.

    • After Mogadishu the Army dropped M855. Why? Because Somali fighters were taking 5-6 hits and shrugging them off. Ty were high on Katt a PDP derivative but still that is bad mojo.


      • Not sure what PDP is, but I assume you meant PCP, which is still wrong.
        First, Khat is not a derivative of anything. Khat is a plant which they’ve been chewing in that part of the world for a looong time. It contains cathinone, which is a stim somewhat similar to amphetamine, and is unrelated to PCP, which is a disassociatove anesthetic (PCP was actually used as an anesthetic before better drugs and undesirable side effects pushed it out of mainstream medical use).

  2. Anybody EVER seen a small, easily concealable AR15 pistol? Silly morons haven’t a clue of what they speak. Nor does M855 Even closely meet the BATFE’s definition of armor piercing.

    • That “easily concealable” was the first, and most obvious clue that the writer had no clue. Wouldn’t their article have had more punch if they had shown a photo of such a pistol? Do you suppose they looked, but were unable to find an example? Duh?! And of course they were not about to let that change the gist of their lie, uh, I mean article.

      • They don’t look for facts. If they did, they couldn’t claim ignorance after their emotion – based lies. As it is, they print their garbage, claim ignorance (nobody questions how easily that ignorance could be cured), then never print a retraction, apology, or clarification.

      • A person’s mind can be their worst enemy. Let the sheep dream up this akm16-47-15 assault pistol and watch the wet spot on the dockers expand. No matter if it doesn’t exist.

      • They’d be able to find a concealable pistol in .223 real quick actually, thanks to our friends at heizer

    • It appears the author specializes in “domestic policy, including the environment, legal affairs, and public health”. Firearms expertise is noticeably absent. Just another self-important liberal masquerading as an authority on [insert subject here].

    • Well, personally, I carry an AR15 pistol as my EDC pistol. It’s a little difficult to find a holster for it so I just shove it into my pants. I’ve found to to be pretty comfortable except for the quad rail, but after a while you get used to the chafing.

      • I met a “gun shop ninja” type that was working the counter at popular gun shop in Houston that I will not name. He claimed he carried one in a briefcase such that in the event of him walking up on some “gang violence” he could “properly be able to defend himself”… Of course the same guy scoffed at me for buying a rail section for my AR so I could mount a light on it. He claimed that he always carried a light and held it as far away from his body as possible so as not to draw fire to his torso (learned from his extensive security guard training). I informed him that the light was for varmint hunting (and that the hogs and other critters were not likely to return fire) and found another employee to ring up my purchases.

  3. Main stream media and being factually accurate are almost mutually exclusive now.

    WaPo, NYT, ABC, etc….all the same, the truth doesn’t matter to them, only the narrative.

  4. If Pravda and The Enquirer had a love child it would be named Washington Post. Of if they had twins the Washington Post and New York Times.

  5. Why do we continue to believe that the MSM bothers to report the facts when it comes to guns? The vast majority reading that article have no clue what M855 is so why would they bother to be correct with that picture? They will not allow integrity get in the way of a good ideologically correct story.

  6. OK. Enough. The WaPo story never states this is M855 ammo. In fact the caption under it just states ‘Boxes of AR-15 rounds (George Frey/Getty Images)’.

    Which it is.

    Nowhere does the article state the picture is of M855.

    This silly attempt to ban M855 is hopefully now over (until the ATF ‘revisits’ it.)

    To defeat the anti-gunners in the public debate our arguments have to be better, stronger, more accurate, more truthful. When we let our prejudices against them lead us to say provably wrong, stupid things like ‘The Washington Post thinks this is M855’ when they clearly don’t, we weaken our case and make ourselves look like childish idiots.

    I’ve seen a lot of this kind of stuff in TTAG lately, especially in the comments section. These people are not retards/libtards/progtards etc, they are as smart as us but they happen to disagree utterly with our position on the 2A and happen to hold the executive branch which can most easily affect our 2A rights since legislative branch is in total gridlock.

    We trivialize them at our peril, we let our guard down at our peril, we make unforced errors like this story at our peril.

    Sorry I’ve been wanting to say something like this for a while and this story for some reason tipped me over the edge. We can do better than this. We HAVE to do better than this.

    • Sorry, John, I’ve got to come right back at you. The article is 100% about 855 ammo, and this is the picture they posted to illustrate the article. It was very clearly INTENDED to leave the impression that it was 855 ammo, and I suspect that is because WaPo believed it WAS 855 ammo, yet you choose to call out TTAG for laughing at their ignorance on the subject of their own article? They are dumb as a (Washington) Post, it should be pointed out, not just repeatedly, but constantly.

      • No, Larry, it actually isn’t. The headline should be your first clue, which fails to reference M855 at all, but is in fact ‘The NRA, even more ridiculous than usual.’ The main thrust of the article is about the NRA and its response to the proposed M855 ban, not the ban itself.

        The article has 10 paragraphs and 554 words. If you actually *read* the article, only about 20% of it is about the ban itself by word count. The rest is about the NRA’s response to it, and a little bit about ETFGS claiming they didn’t push for the ban.

        And this is exactly my problem with the way many of our community respond to those who are trying to infringe our 2A rights. Yes, there are provably false assertions in the story. The ‘concealability’ of AR pistols for example. So let’s point out those false assertions, and let’s keep pointing them out forcefully and repeatedly. Let’s actually educate those who know nothing about firearms who find stories like this plausible because they read them in a ‘respected’ newspaper and don’t know any better.

        But no, instead what we did today is slap our thighs and guffaw over a stupid rim-shot joke *which isn’t even true* because the picture is clearly labelled ‘AR-15 rounds’ *not* ‘M855’.

        How exactly do we advance our cause with this behavior? We don’t. We only advance our cause by being smarter, clearer and *more adult* than our opposition. We confirm their secret prejudices when we act like dumbass kids and actually harm our cause.

        Or to put it in old world wisdom, don’t wrestle with a pig – you just get dirty and the pig enjoys it. We need to stop wrestling in the muck. We need to stand up like adults and make adult arguments.

        • John, count words all you like, right from the beginning the article is all about the ATF banning a “certain armor piercing ammo” and the reaction of the NRA to the attempt to ban it. Could that mean something other than 855? Is that photo about the NRA? They clearly meant to show armor piercing ammo and did not know how or what they were talking about. Giving them a pass, treating the article as though somebody at WaPo had the slightest clue what they were talking about, is enhancing their credentials to speak on matters firearm. IMHO, a good horselaugh might encourage them to STFU. You are welcome to your opinion, I beg to differ.

          Heck, the way that picture is presented, you would think it was pure cocaine captured in a sting operation, “isn’t the ATF cool?”

    • I agree with you in principle but it is so much fun calling them names and then pointing out their ignorance of the facts. The anti’s I know don’t care about the facts.

      • Kent, I know it’s tempting to have our fun poking the eyes of the kiddies on the other side of the argument, but what’s actually going to help our cause in the long run? A poke in the eye, or a baseball bat of calm, reasoned logic to the head?

        By the way, I’m a registered democrat and also a permitted concealed carrier. So I have a *lot* of democrat friends who were knee-jerk confused and appalled to learn I own firearms and *gasp* carry one around. That is, until I swayed them round to at least neutral – and in some cases now gun owners themselves – by actually **educating them** in a reasoned, calm and adult way. Not by throwing schoolyard insults at them. That only causes them to entrench further. No man has ever been convinced to change his mind by demeaning and insulting him. **Not ever.**

        This is the lesson our community needs to learn, and learn fast, before the 2A is gutted beyond repair.

        • OK, you tell me–what kind of intelligent news-gathering authority on firearms policy calls an AR-15 pistol “small and easily concealable”?

        • @Another Robert

          And what kind of reputable pro-gun website makes up a rim-shot joke about a picture of ammunition that actually isn’t funny because, errr, it isn’t what the caption on the picture said?

          Point being this: both sides, when they speak/write from their gut reactions and automatic assumptions, instead of actually debating like reasoned adults, look really pretty stupid.

          Never interrupt your opponent when he is making a mistake. When the anti-gunners make a mistake, we should point it out publicly and intelligently. Capitalize on it. Sway the undecideds with irrefutable facts and logic.

          In other words, it would have been far preferable if today TTAG article today had calmly dissected the provable errors in the WaPo piece and we all posted links to it in the WaPo comments section. Instead we got a cheap clickbait rim-shot of an article predicated solely on an error WaPo *didn’t even make*.

          I use this piece as an example as it’s characteristic of an increasingly strident trend in articles and comments I’ve been seeing more and more lately on even the best pro-2A websites, and I think it’s a trend which does us a great disservice overall.

          Again, to best the opponents, we have to be better than them.

        • Actually, I think you have a point. I would like to see more comments directed at that “small, concealable AR pistiol” garbage, and the fact that the “green tip” doesn’t even meet the ATF definition of “armor piercing” in reference to handgun rounds, and all the other errors that the article contained. Which, BTW, is what seems to be happening at the article site itself. OTOH, a lot of folks would just throw up their hand at some of the more technical stuff (like how “green tip” doesn’t really qualify as “armor piercing”), but they just might get that the Post couldn’t manage to post a picture of “green tip” to illustrate a story about “green tip.” And as far as actually trying to reason with an real anti-gunner (as opposed to a fence-sitter or someone who normally just doesn’t think about it that much)–well, surely you have heard the illustration about playing chess with a pigeon.
          PS–but you still didn’t answer me, you say they are so intelligent, what kind of intelligent commentator calls an AR pistol “small and concealable”?

        • John, I agree with you, we are on the same page but I realized a long time ago that we can’t change the mind of the media. All I want to do is defeat them through the ballot box.

        • Actually, the *picture* is not what the *article* was about, and pointing that out is exactly the kind of exposure you are saying we should do, demonstrating the lack of qualification to discuss firearms. I am confused as to your objection here.

        • Hay John, just wondering how many of your Liberal Democrat friends have made the leap to gun ownership?

    • I’m not sure I would call 85 grain OTMs “AR ammo.” Those projectiles are likely too long for the rounds to fit in an AR mag.

    • Amen brother. We need to be more honest clever and truthful then they are.

      Liberals are not stupid. I work with many of them. They may not always have practical, trade or real world skills but that’s not the same as being unintelligent. They may be naive and may have different values but underestimate them at your own peril.

  7. They had Stephen Hunter for a while, but he was a film critic for them. The “news” weenies on staff didn’t seem to talk to him before printing misleading crap then, and they most certainly don’t now that he’s retired from there.

    • In Hunter’s I, Sniper, there’s a New York Times reporter who tries to smear the hero with a photo supposedly proving he took a bribe. He goes through great lengths to authenticate the photo itself, but completely misidentifies the rifle in the picture, which supposedly proves the bribe. The day after the Times runs the photo, they are laughed out of the park by every gun nut in the country. Hunter, he knows of what he writes.

      • He’s one of my favorite authors. Unfortunately Mark Wahlberg was cast as Bob Lee Swagger in the movie adaptation of Shooter. Really diminished my enjoyment of the film.

        • Yeah, that movie is a disaster. But who would be the perfect Swagger? Obviously a younger Clint, but we missed that bus. Viggo Mortensen? Christian Bale? Kurt Russell?

        • I’m at a bit of a loss on that. But I must admit I wouldn’t have seen Bradley Cooper as Chris Kyle, and he nailed it.

  8. Did you notice they even used an applicable term, “cartooishly”, although not aimed correctly. How many times, and in how many ways, can you proudly demonstrate your cluelessness in a single article. Was there ANYTHING correct, there?

  9. Foxnews recently had a photo of .22 lr for an article about M855. The ignorance of journalists amazes me.

    • CIS series have shown a character shot with a .223 out of a Ruger 10/22. What was recovered from his noggin looked like the remains of a short pistol bulet.

      …and I am not even mentioning an episode which hinged on those clowns’ inability to tell 9mm pistol bullet from a 5.56 rifle one.

    • I saw that same photo and was absolutely flabbergasted! A pile of 22lr ammo…which happens to be a lot harder to find than M855 anyway!!

  10. Wow. Every single assertion in the article wasn’t just wrong, it was easily demonstrably wrong. Ten seconds on Google would have been all he needed. If this is his level of “expertise”, I have to wonder if he even put the correct name on the byline.

  11. Soon they will reference those easily concealable pistol AR-15’s used in the movie The Matrix.


  12. I don’t think this is a big deal. All they’re looking for is a visual aid to go with the story, and that picture does not materially mislead anyone about the substance of the issue. OK, it’s the wrong ammo. What, exactly, would be different if it were the correct ammunition? What conclusions about the issue would be affected were the picture correct? None.

    Now, continuing to call ARs “assault rifles”, or the made-up term “assault weapons” (as opposed to what, a love weapon?), is material and the media should be called out on it. Even calling M855 cartridges “armor piercing” is misleading and should be countered. Those errors/lies do impact the quality of the debate because they misrepresent the facts. But this picture? Meh. Makes no difference, but I agree, it’s fun to pick on the MSM.

  13. Happily, the comments are consistently pointing out the author’s ignorance and/or mendacity.

  14. If choosing this pic is something more than laziness or apathy I see two possibilities:

    a) here is a picture of other rounds we will never want banned that you could still buy. Don’t worry will never change our mind and want to ban any other existing rounds even though at this point we must know (yet not admit) that these very rounds we are showing can penetrate the same body armor in question.

    b) here is a picture of some more scary rifle rounds that should also eventually be banned after M855. Must be after, we can’t yet reveal that we know the rounds pictured will also penetrate the same body armor in question when fired from this “new” “small and concealable” handgun. We don’t want to come across as being dishonest while we are lying.

    Laziness or apathy is most likely followed by option b.

  15. Just the fact that the AR design requires a giant buffer tube, makes it the least concelaed design ever. nevermind the fact that also having the magazine that doesnt fit inside the pistol grip makes it even more visible and large.

  16. I forgot to point out that at almost $30 a box of 20 for the Barns ammo pictured I can definitely say that criminals would not be using it.

  17. My favorite aspect of the WaPo is that my comments in 2A stories correcting writers on their mistakes have either gone unanswered or, worse, never made it through moderator acceptance in the first place. Also, emails to writers and editors pointing out mistakes have been ignored and uncorrected 100% of the time. Their interest in customer satisfaction or journalistic integrity is about as impressive as RT.

  18. The communist faculty lounge at journalism school has trouble with actually knowing anything. They just follow orders.

  19. I have to wonder if Stephen Stromberg was born that ignorant or if he had to go to somewhere like Columbia to get that dumb.

  20. That’s why people of the gun mostly use the term AR-15 “pistol” and not AR-15 “handgun”, which to me means something totally different. There is absolutely no handgun that can fire M855. There happen to be a few AR-15 pattern firearms that fit the definition of a pistol, but are nowhere near able to be concealed-carried or anything like a handgun.

  21. It’s easy. Write the piece, say a bunch of blah, blah about cop killer, armor piercing, who needs that to shoot Bambi, go get a stock photo and you’re done.

    Research is for those other guys….

  22. 85 grain 5.56? I want some 85 grain 5.56. I haven’t read the article. Maybe it will say where they took the photo. Doubt it.

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