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Browning safe (courtesy The Truth About Guns)

I recently wrote a blog post where I repeated the pro-gun mantra, “you can have my guns when you pry them from my cold, dead hands.” I gave that some more thought and decided that I wasn’t being entirely truthful. There are some circumstances in which I would surrender my firearms. For example . . .

If government agents descend upon my house in force, armed and ready for a firefight, I will let them take my guns. I reckon I’d be no good to the pro-liberty, pro-gun side if I’m lying in a pool of my own blood, dead.

Oh sure, I’d make a damn fine martyr. Gun blogger slain defending his natural, civil and Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. (That’s not how the media would spin it, but you get my gist.) But I’d rather stay alive, escape the long arm of the law and continue the struggle behind a keyboard. Or, if necessary, take up arms in the defense of my country – when I have a better chance of defending myself and freedom from the instruments of oppression.

My father was Nazi slave; beaten, starved, denied shelter and medical attention. He was worked to the point of collapse. His contribution to the cause of freedom? Surviving. Emigrating to America. Raising at least one son dedicated to preserving the liberty he cherished. Would he have preferred to have shot the anti-semites who butchered his parents and destroyed his community? Absolutely. But he didn’t have the chance.

I have the chance. I’m armed against tyranny. I’m wired into a community of like-minded people. And I’m in Texas, where gun confiscation isn’t a thing. Yet. Hopefully, I could see that dark day coming – whether it’s here or somewhere else – and be ready. But there’s no guarantee. As the Brits say, it’s the bus you don’t see that kills you.

I guess the bottom line is this: if I can use my guns effectively to defend my freedom, and my children’s freedom, and the freedom of my fellow Americans, I will.  I don’t know the how, what, when or why of it. At what point does shit get real? I’ll let you know. (Hopefully not.) Meanwhile, my hands are warm and my powder is dry. Good enough?

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    • Good tip for all. get a waterproof container designed to be buried. put 1,000 rds mixed between side arm and rifle. put them in vacuum sealed bags for firearms with moisture pack to prevent rusting. oh yeah extra oil is a big must. Combat First Aid kit, at minimum 2 types of fire making methods. change of clothes if it will fit, including boots and 4 pairs of socks. cleaning kit and basic hygiene stuff. lifestraw for water is a must.

      extras like pass port, silver coins, and any extras you think of that you would neeed only are great. use 2 containers if needed.

      dont need a tent, or any bulky stuff, TP for bunholio is nice but not needed. vitamins and meds thst have a short shelf life are a wast. food is going to spoil. dont forget you may not dig it up for years. you should every few years to update and clean firearms, but if done correctly it should last for decades.

      bury it deep where no one is going to build. under a shed is a good place.

      • As you said, TP isn’t needed, but let’s face it, it’s a creature comfort, and in the situation where all this is taking place, a small creature comfort or two can go a long way. A good source of survival toilet paper is the cheap stuff you can get at Dollar tree or dollar general for $1 for 4 rolls. This stuff ain’t the best, but the cardboard tube is easily removed and the paper can be squashed down to not take up much space.

      • A couple months after Sandyhook, when everyone was scrambling to buy ARs, I found a nice looking Remington 870 Marine Magnum for sale at the LGS. It looked new, but had a bit of oil seeping out of the butt stock pad and other odd places. I asked the salesmen what was up with that, and he said it was one of several guns a guy had kept buried in his back yard for years, in a sealed 50 gallon drum filled with unused motor oil. He decided to dig it up and sell them all, for whatever reason. The gun was perfectly preserved. It had synthetic stocks, of course. Not sure wood would have faired very well in motor oil.

    • “Would he have preferred to have shot the anti-semites who butchered his parents and destroyed his community? Absolutely. But he didn’t have the chance.”

      History doesn’t play favorites. And it is decidedly unforgiving of the intentionally naive. The smug condescension of gun-controller elites the kind of willful unknowing that gets people killed. They don’t know history and, even worse, they don’t want to know history.

    • I agree. I have said this several times over the years. It’s very easy to be a loudmouth when there is no heat on you; but when they kick in your door, force you to your knees while your children look on; everyone will sing a different tune. It does absolutely no good to become a martyr in front of your family. We have a very well trained police force and military. If you resist they will put you down hard. That’s if mass confiscations ever happen. I honestly dont think its likely to happen in the USA, barring any SERIOUS catastrophe like Katrina (they did it there). It’s like arguing with a cop over a ticket. You will NEVER win on the roadside.

    • Ah yes willing to defend freedom at all costs makes one a keyboard commando… No wonder we live in this security state.

      • No, advocating for a pointless death when there are other options makes one a keyboard commando. When surrounded by a superior force, where resistance = death, but escape to fight another day is possible, only a fool chooses pointless death. The writer is merely indicating that sometimes discretion is the better part of valor.

      • So tell me, what good will it do anyone when Federal agents have you at gunpoint, are screaming at you to drop the weapons and you decide to open fire? Now you, your dog, and your entire family are dead. The news media will paint you as another “anti-government extremist” and anyone who does happen to mourn your death will be painted as terrorist sympathizers and rounded up for interrogation.

        What good will that do? Discretion is the better part of valor. If I’m not being clear enough, KNOW HOW TO PICK YOUR BATTLES.

        • So what confluence of factors, for you, constitutes a battle worth having?

        • Why wait? If you know who the enemy is, why aren’t all of you attacking every federal agent right now…at their homes…in surprise attacks…covertly?

          Because we won’t. Ever. It’s all talk. And I’m glad for that. Let’s be honest about it and use our time productively instead of talking about who we are going to kill and looking like a bunch of nuts.

    • It’s not about being a wimp. I can understand self-preservation, but how long would the Nazis have kept it up if every Jew met them with a gun in their hands?

      • In all honesty, it would have meant more Jews would have been killed defending their homes instead of being sent to ghettos or prison camps but it certainly wouldn’t have stopped the Nazis in their efforts. They certainly didn’t think twice about going to war with the Allies and Russia and they were far more armed than any effort the Jews could have mustered up.
        I’m not saying they shouldn’t have armed themselves if at all possible, but to answer your question, the Nazis wouldn’t have been deterred.

        • “In all honesty, it would have meant more Jews would have been killed defending their homes instead of being sent to ghettos or prison camps but it certainly wouldn’t have stopped the Nazis in their efforts.”

          Yes, they would have. Even if the Jews killed their attackers at a 1:3 ratio (one Nazi soldier killed for every 3 Jews) there would have been 2 MILLION fewer Nazis to fight the war.

          I don’t agree with the above poster (I believe there are smarter ways to fight an overwhelming force), but every inch of ground you give up, and ever inch of ground you take makes a difference, even if you will never live to see it.

  1. Well, any SWAT team idiot who trys to throw a flash bang grenade into my son’s crib is going to get a fusillade of .40 (or 5.56 or 00 buck). Old man dies, young boy lives. Fair trade.

  2. I don’t follow the logic here, if your father had a weapon should he have surrendered it?
    The fact that he was among the small percentage of survivors would be like saying all the Nazi victims should have surrendered peacefully, because they might have survived.

    • Read this: “Gun control in the Third Reich”

      Excellent documentary showing rhe laws that were written by the Weimar Republic (gun registration and others) and the many political factions that were systematically eliminated. Hitler’s rise was almost paved for him.

      Plus even tho Germany didn’t have a Constitution that protected their citizens right to arms, the laws they passed controlling an removing guns are very similar to all the “common-sense” gun laws that get airtime by the motards in office.

      • “Statist” and “Progressive” are just newer names for the same process. Same kinds of people with the same kinds of intent. Using new names doesn’t change a damn thing. The current American Left would have been right at home back then.

  3. You think you’ll be able to “continue the fight” from your keyboard once they confiscate your firearms?

    HAHAHA! How are you going to stop them from taking your keyboard, too?

  4. I don’t have any guns. I lost all of mine in a fishing trip in the Gulf of Mehico. I’d like to buy some more but Obambi sez they are bad.

  5. ” Would he have preferred to have shot the anti-semites who butchered his parents and destroyed his community? Absolutely. But he didn’t have the chance.”

    Well, he had the chance, but gave it up before seeing the need to do it. By the time he recognized the need, the opportunity was gone. (that pretty much applies to everybody in Europe at the time)

    But there were still opportunities for the highly motivated after it was time for Jews to hide in attics because they all knew what was happening. (assuming you weren’t among those who were already rounded up)
    Anybody who wanted to procure a Luger or Mauser by ambushing a German soldier or cop and slitting his throat with a kitchen knife was free to do so.
    Recall the elderly Chinese gent in the same time frame who killed several Japanese soldiers, one at a time, with shuriken in the throats thrown from very close range.

      • The one where one does not give up in the face of insurmountable odds. Do soldiers always surrender when surrounded and outnumbered? No. Most of them die in these scenarios, but give others of the same mindset fuel to keep going.

        We are fighting within a rigged system. Rolling over and playing by the rules will not win the good fight. Eventually, you have to either live on your knees or die on your feet.

        • “Out of every one hundred men, ten shouldn’t even be there, eighty are just targets, nine are the real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they make the battle. Ah, but the one, one is a warrior, and he will bring the others back.” – Heraclitus

          “A man can only be beaten in two ways, if he gives up, or he dies” – SEAL doctrine

    • There were Jews that did fight back. With guns/explosives in Germany and elsewhere in Eurup. But a tremendous minority effort.

      What is the trigger that will alert a writer that he is next? Where he leaves the keyboard to actually do something? If “they” take your guns your keyboard will certainly go also.

      • It seems like a lot of people think robert said, “never fight back.” He didn’t say that he would never fight, but if your house is surrounded by an overwhelming force who wants to take your guns. It’s probably better to regroup later(because you are just one person in that scenario) and live to fight another day. That’s just being strategic and understanding where you can do the most good.

        • I’m sure some (certainly not me, of course), will choose to set up the video cameras, then remove the head of the first one through the door, followed by a surrender covered by the press. Plead not guilty, tie up the courts for 25 years. Multiply that times a million people and the entire country (police state) comes to a halt, until somebody starts making sense, and the truth comes out. That crap can only happen in secret.

          I have never figured out what good burying your guns does, other than supporting the gun industry as you buy more.

        • “remove the head of the first one through the door, followed by a surrender”

          Yes, I’m sure The Man will be happy to accept your peaceful surrender after you’ve killed “the first one through the door”. I can’t see any possible flaw in that scenario. None at all.

    • Many groups of people in Weimar and early Nazi Germany needed to be a little more proactive. I thought the victims willingly going to the concentration camps was just stupid. I thought the movement in the movie Defiance was a little more constructive.
      My Protestant Sachsen German ancestors thought the whole problem was beginning in the 19th Century and left Der Vaterland.

  6. By surrendering your firearms, you make a lot of assumptions.
    Assuming they aren’t going to kill you anyway.
    Assuming you will have your day in court.
    Assuming they wont brutalize you and your family, or leave you to be brutalized by others.

    Is your default position consist of surrendering your firearms to anyone who decides to attack your home/family/friends/neighbors?

    One wonders how it might have turned out if the millions of Jews, Gypsies, political prisoners and others had stood to instead of going quietly into the night.

    • I recall that not working out well for the American Indians, who were subsequently slaughtered by the U.S. Government.

      • You forget the 60 years war. Indians were the ISIS of their day in many respects. We are still at war with them, and they are still working to win it.

  7. If we’re talking about tyrannical door to door confiscations… That’s what IEDs are for. I’d bet that I’ll be far from the first person on their list. By the time they get to me, my home will be empty, and they will have quite a few surprises waiting for them. It’s amazing what a properly motivated combat engineer can cook up given a few hours to prepare. I’d bet that the first SWAT team to get mulched when kicking down a door will make the other goon squads a bit more hesitant.

  8. You haven’t truly lived until you are willing to die for something.

    Surrender your guns or be shot by your own government?
    Convert to Islam or lose your head?

    There needs to be a line somewhere and if that line is moveable, you stand for nothing. Resistance, no matter how futile has the chance of changing events. Surrender changes nothing.

    • Sure, but for me that line is, “they’re out to kill me or my family regardless of what I do, or put me in a camp where I will be worked to death. ”

      Losing our guns, while horrible, would in and of itself(key phrase) not be the death of all things enjoyable in life.

      As poor and oppressed as the average soviet citizen was, I suspect they found some small pleasures that made life worth living for the most part.

      Not that being “poor and oppressed is A-okay,” far from it, but if all they end up doing is taking my guns…. that I didn’t lose in that boating accident. Life will go on, and I can keep fighting the good fight.

      • “they’re out to kill me or my family regardless of what I do, or put me in a camp where I will be worked to death.”

        Do you think they will inform you of their plans to do this while you still have guns?

        No. They will take them for the children, the safety, the betterment of society. When they are gone, and you are defenseless, then they decide to work you to death.

      • Evan- I thought the liberals in Texas are from Austin but obviously the disease has spread to the BigD.
        “Losing our guns, while horrible, would in and of itself(key phrase) not be the death of all things enjoyable in life.”
        It is not about guns it is about taking away an American’s liberty and their right to have the option to choose.

        “As poor and oppressed as the average soviet citizen was, I suspect they found some small pleasures that made life worth living for the most part.”
        You must be an immigrant to America with that response, and if you were born here please become a suicide statistic. If you don’t like guns that is your option to choose not to have one and be a defenseless sheep, but you don’t have the option to take mine as you surrender your liberty. When you surrender your rights you are also surrendering mine and eventually there has to be a reckoning for your willful indifference of your fellow man.

        To answer Farago’s question I love Fedcoats but I would hope when they are stepping over my dead body that they see all the art on my walls, food in my fridge, guns in my safe are probably just like in their homes. I hope the fact that they just murder a man, who would never have offensively hurt another innocent human and who probably shared many of the same interests as his killers.

        Mr.Farago you left out the most important part of that mantra–Which is OUR guns will be hot and empty.

  9. You would be better for the cause alive and writing. Someone like me, well, they can have my guns after they take my bullets from the business end, then pry from from my gold dead hands.

  10. They are welcome to come confiscate my bolt action .22 and break-open single shot 12 gauge, as those are the only guns in my gun safe.

  11. It took the murder of millions of people for jews to learn they must be prepared to kill when the time comes. Even liberal reform hypocrite jews who want everyone else’s guns confiscated, will still make sure the police are well armed and on their speed dial list.

    The black Christian deacons for defense and justice learned a different lesson than the white Jews of Europe. You don’t give up your guns. Tyranny was already here in the United States and it was defeated by black men with guns. I think the white Europeans lost the concept of killing in self defense a very long time ago.

  12. As long as the agents of confiscation hit intermittently there will never be any point to fighting unless you just want suicide by cop.
    Sure, to anyone paying attention a seemingly random and unnecessary visit upon a gun owner would raise alarm but most people arent paying any attention.
    The average network/cable news viewer just sees the heroic state marching into a dangerous situation with the anonymous gun owner. Evil, evil gun owner.

    We see it everyday when police activity makes front page news and any info that may lead to exoneration or the dropping of charges gets a small font blurb on page 9.
    Paced conservatively confiscation could go on for years before anyone really takes notice. In the meantime it’ll just be more heroic police action against those unhinged gun owners. Should anyone think twice the state will no doubt be able to stick something else to that evil gun owner to justify the action. Maybe their 15 year old kid had some stems and seeds in an old coat pocket or perhaps a dog in the home wasnt properly licensed. Evil people.

    • I agree that this will be the most probable scenario. It will be a tough choice for everybody: fight or live to fight another day. I guess part of preparation should be some ability to let your story out. To let people know what you died for. Otherwise they will bury you under the “evil gun owner / crazy prepper / domestic terrorist” label. And everybody will cheer on about how god gov took another “kook” out.
      Not an easy decision, but must think about it before hand.

      • It will not be “fight or live to fight another day”, it will be fight or live out the rest of your life in a FEMA camp/prison.

  13. I’ve always said that if comes down to giving up my firearms or getting killed by a team of heavily armed brownshirts….I’m looking for a third option.

  14. So many gun folks are frozen in time circa 1950. In 2015 or 2020 nobody in govt is going send SEAL teams to fast rope down on your condo. They WILL call you in to the IRS for an audit. They WILL confiscate the comupter keyboard and close down TTAG. They WILL harass all your ex wives and children. They will seize your bank accounts. They are capable of giving deadly weapons to Mexican cartels. You think they wouldn’t plant child porn on your hard drive? Drugs in your kids car ? Encourage MS13 thugs to carve up a loved one ?

    Do you get the idea RF ? they will silence you just using certified mail and lawyers. They are quite capable of destroying your life and bringing you to the point of total despair. Remember what Hitler offered Rommel ? Either take your own life or see all your family crushed.

    • If they are willing to spend the resources to give someone personal attention like this, absolutely they can take down any individual. If they want to be quick and dirty, they can also just send goons to kill you (much cheaper and easier). In the doomsday scenario in which Americans are faced with a frank takeover by authoritarians, resistance must be both widespread and organized to be effective.

      • “In the doomsday scenario in which Americans are faced with a frank takeover by authoritarians, resistance must be both widespread and organized to be effective.”

        Old Ben- you missed tommy’s point that WE are already taken over by authoritarians. It is hard for some of us to accept but that does not change the truth of our new American reality. He was spot on on how it happens in the real world. They would pull you over and after you surrender your EDC weapon, which takes away your option of non-consent, that is when your world becomes clear that WE sacrificed Liberty and the Ideals that America was created out of.

        “resistance must be both widespread and organized to be effective.”
        WE hope our fellow citizens who are FEDs will wright the ship they have caused to list. Just like how the financial recession was caused by the political class, and the bailout was to ensure the political class’s future amongst WE peasants who had our wealth stolen.

    • They don’t even need to work that hard: they just have an “informant” call in with an anonymous tip about a drug lab, then send in the SWAT team to shoot you and your dog and cat and maybe the goldfish. After, they’ll be very sorry about misinformation, a half dozen cops will get a paid vacation, and in a few weeks everything goes back to normal.

  15. I’m no martyr…I can finger fumble a keyboard, barely assemble sentences and inking a Thomas Paine well is beyond my grapes’ capability. I’m starting to understand what legislators say and do, doesn’t always square with law enforcement discretion.

    The best resistance is supporting and electing county sheriffs who support individual’s right to lawfully carry arms. Share your liberties with neighbors and friends…they are fought for, won, and must be maintained. Politicians who embrace freedoms win, ones who deny are voted out.

  16. Assuming we are talking about when the govt starts to forcibly confiscate guns and not just a search warrant JBT raid, we all understand the govt gun stores will be closed. So if you allow them to take what you have, it would appear you are up the creek without a rifle to “effectively to defend” your freedom.

    I suppose you can baseball bat a govt employee and take his rifle, or hope to convince someone who hasn’t been raided to have one of their now priceless rifles, but it’s probably easier to just accept that at the point forcible confiscation is occurring, it’s all life and death.

  17. When they come (and they are coming for you Farago), it won’t be because of your guns. They’ll get you on tax evasion, controlled substances, guilt by association because you eat at Subway (which should be a crime against nature) or some other excuse.

  18. I, (NAME), do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God.
    Every agent, officer, elected official, and member of the military has taken a similar oath. Any who would make, support, issue, or comply with an order or law to confiscate firearms is a traitor and deserves no mercy. Yes, Robert, I would certainly hope we all would have eyes to see this unfolding and that we would not be one soul against tyranny. I would hope we will band together and speak with one (hundred million) voice loudly and clearly and that tyranny would BTF down. Sadly though, as seen in the aftermath of Katrina, tyranny won the day.

    • Gman: the military officer oath is different from enlisted in that the officer oath does not mention obeying the president or other officers. The reason for this is that an officer has a duty to refuse to obey unlawful orders.

    • A Utah national guard unit did in fact refuse orders to confiscate weapons in New Orleans. They returned to their home base rather than break their oath to protect against all enemies foreign and domestic. Those dreaded Mormons strike again!!!

      it was police officers from progressive California who helped confiscate weapons in New Orleans.

  19. It’s a good idea to have a hidden, weapons cashe off site from your home.

    If you find yourself at an indefensible postion, then stand down, retreat, and live to fight another day.

    • This^

      God forbid it ever come to that, but I think machismo gets in the way of strategic thinking on this site sometimes.

      • Sometimes a threat works. Let them be fully apprised that, whoever they are, that their life is not worth 1/2 a wet tick-turd, and, if you get by them, you are going after all they care about, including their kids, and their dog.

        “Government” (wherever it is found) is made up of people. Those people are just your a-hole neighbors who need jobs. Don’t take sh_t from your a-hole neighbors who need jobs, you’re already paying them.

        When forming interactive societies one maxim maintains the balance of individuals when commingled pairs form larger groups.
        That maxim is simply:
        ‘I WILL NOT PAY TO RAISE-UP AN ARMY AGAINST MYSELF’. [TERMS, J.M. Thomas R., 2012, Pg. 34]

  20. In hypothetical gun-Prohibition America:
    If it’s Officer Friendly knocking politely with a warrant, heck yes, I will comply. I’ll just buy new better guns from the huge black market the next day. Maybe even from Officer Friendly himself.
    If it’s a bunch of screaming ninjas wearing socks over their heads breaking down the door at 3 a.m. I honestly don’t know what will happen. Gross negligence happens when poorly trained morons rush around in the dark carrying guns.

    • I have read that the 3 ATF goons who climbed through the 2nd floor window at the Branch Davidian compound and were subsequently shot to death actually shot each other in the dark, firing full auto. Never saw a denial, but who knows? Remember, “I don’t know who shot him!”, followed by “I want a lawyer and I can’t afford one” Be as expensive as possible and consume as much time as possible.

      • Carry a GLOCK brand GLOCK.

        That way, after you shoot the intruder, you can exchange barrels with him and say that he shot himself.

  21. I don’t know what I’d do.

    That makes me think I need to back the argument up until the point at which I do know what I would do. Don’t view the argument from the conclusion as though it does not (would not) offer you a 20/20 hindsight view, and use that to prevent the instance in the first place.

    Other than that, If you are outnumbered, out-gunned, wounded, surrounded, and out of ammo, and the enemy gives you the opportunity for peaceable surrender. There really is only one thing to do. MAKE THEM THE SAME OFFER.

    To my friends, I say, when they come for you, they will have a green dot on the back of their heads, and we can laugh about it later when we are urinating on the bodies. To all others, you watch your a_ _.

  22. While I agree that self preservation is huge. Preservation against numbers requires… numbers. The whole lone wolf Hollywood thing never works. The biggest key is how to discretely organize.

    • One of my favorite shootout scenes in a movie is the final shootout from the wild bunch. They actually fare pretty well relatively speaking with their Winchester 1897s grenades, 1911s and the notorious browning m1917. How does it end though? Every protagonist is shot to heck and eventually killed. They even had better weapons and skills than their enemy and they still lost. Why?…. Numbers make a huge difference.

      I know it’s a movie, but still. The incident in Mogadishu would probably be comparable.

  23. RF, strong words, your father certainly suffered greatly under extreme Nazi brutality. Do you continually cite his experience at the hands of a terrible oppressor to buttress your own concerns keyboard commandos will call you a coward due to no personal service history? You have no reason to need or justify a strong 2nd Amendment rationale, TTAG readers get it. Your family history is full of incredible survival stories. I joined the military late in life because of a sense of duty, not all proud citizens are able or willing to make that choice. Keep up the good editorial work, you can stand on your own two feet…

  24. Y’know, you can always roll your own rifle. One AK47 or AK74 kit, some magazines, a screw or rivet set (your choice), some receiver blanks and a barrel and you’re on your way to a rifle off any books.
    “Argue for your limitations, and sure enough, they’re yours. “

  25. Confiscation would be pretty difficult and dangerous if everyone fought, and pretty easy if no one did. Didn’t the Brits try to confiscate Colonial arms? How did that work out?

  26. I think it may depend on your age and presumed life expectancy. If you’re an old fart like me and probably have some hidden time bomb ticking away in your body, you just might as well go down in a blaze of glory and take one or two federal goons with you. It would be way better than dying slowly of cancer or Alzheimer’s. If you’re young, surrender and live to fight another day. Given the sheer numbers, there are enough armed aging baby boomers out there to make quite an impact on the life expectancy of the unlawful gun confiscators who want to go home that evening. In any event, save a bullet for yourself because they’ll ultimately try to burn you alive in your own house. They do it all of the time.

    • ” I you’re an old fart like me and probably have some hidden time bomb ticking away in your body” . That’s why you ” home carry” a suicide vest, and know where the pool chemicals are.

      • Oh and tell them what the allies told the Germans when they were surrounded at the battle of the bulge. …… “Beans”

        • My dad who was there always said it wasn’t “nuts” but rather the reply started with an “F” and was cleaned up afterwards.

        • Patrick , we should always give some kudos to the 12th Armored Division , The Hellcats . The bravery and sacrifice all the way up the Rhine valley and particularly their stance against a heavy armored , battle hardened panzers division at the battle at Herrlisheim may have been more important or at least as important as the Bulge . This was the spearhead that could have put the Germans back in the game . This group of boys were put together quickly and they earned their muster in a hurry . The 12th Armored didn’t exist on paper until after the war . I often refer to them as dozer soldiers . If your curious , do a little digging . Never to old to fight , never to young to die .

  27. I do have grampa’s lever gun in the closet, but its a bit rusted and the stock is cracked. I guess you could confiscate that one if you want. No, I don’t have any other guns, just that one. I used to have more, but there was a terrible boating accident a few months back…..

    • OK. Fine. But where do I hide my long-lost firearms when they come with warrants? My gun safe is too heavy to move on a short notice. We’re talking more than half a dozen weapons equipped with long-lost scopes, ACOGs, bipods, spare mags, spare ammo, etc.

      • If your home has plumbing or ductwork , you should never have to dig a hole . Goggle it , there is probably a
        You tube video . I hope you understand what I’m talking about .

    • And what do you do when they start torturing your wife/kids in front of you? Or threatening to take them in on false charges? There are many ways it could go down, but if the leftist authoritarians really do drop the gloves, it could be level of ugly we’ve rarely seen on American soil. You are thinking like an American, but your potential opponents may not be.

  28. Well. I’m a Christian. I believe we are in the times of Revelation. The Anti-Christ will rise, if he is not already here, and will reign supreme, for a time. Christians will he persecuted and have their heads chopped off if they don’t bow to the anti-Christ and it’s religion, (which does match Islam and their expectation of the return of their own “savior”, which sounds alot like the anti-christ and they are now chopping heads off of Christians, and other infidels, right now.)

    So the persecution of Christians will be a world wide affair, and considering the dehumanization of gun owners and Christians in this country, I could see those statist worshipers here in this country cheering as the government passes an assault weapon ban during a “national crisis”, then marches those same “sub-human monsters” of the Christian and gun owning “faith” that don’t comply, into the camps and eventually into the ovens, for a time.

    My philosophy is that for a time, it is better to wait it out until the monster consumes itself, and as the bible recommends, head to the hills. So rather than fight it out in the streets, ie “The Warsaw Ghetto” scenario, instead, head to the hills and avoid the monster, and only fight as needed ie like the movie “Defiance” talked about the Jewish Bielski brothers with the jews they saved hiding out in the forest. Then, for a time, survive, fighting only when needed, until it is time for the return of the Son and under his guidance, we will go out under the banner of the Christ and the beast will finally be confronted and defeated.

    Of course, this won’t happen in our own country, if there is a return to constitutionally limited government, and a respect for individual liberties defended by the USSC. The USSC will finally outlaw all restriction of the right to KABA and defend this right on a national level like they did with the “right” of gay marriage and national health care ie. Obama Care. And if they repeal the NDAA and the Patriot Act as completely unconstitutional and a complete violation of individual liberty and the rule of law. After which, the idea that our government would EVER consider doing anything as I describe is just a fever dream.

    But until this happens, anything is possible. And I’ll just plan for the worst and hope and pray for the best.

    But this is just me and one man’s belief.

    • I am old and would fight to the death. And I don’t care who thinks I’m a keyboard commando. Headshots RF. YMMV guys. It ain’t gonna’ get better…BTW the stock market,United airlines and other concerns are (maybe) under cyber attack as I type. Fragile reality folks…

      • Screw headshots. Aim for the pelvis. Bigger target. Less mobile. Most likely unarmored, highly vascular, if you hit a bone they are going down, period. Use a shotgun.

    • Jack Van Impe? Is that you? No offense, partner, but you come across as a kook.

      No, I am not persecuting you by disagreeing with you. Just sounds like you’ve read too many “Left Behind” novels.

      • LOL. No offense taken.

        I thought anyone that believed in a “higher power” were fools, “Kooks”. Just plain crazy.

        Until I found the I AM. Then I realized how lost, how foolish, I had been. But like the bible says, As a blind man, I didn’t realize how lost, how blind I had been, until I could “See”.

        Each person has been given the choice to believe, or not. Which is the gift from G-d, of free will.

        Choose wisely.

      • Boy, I remember that phase. I was so certain it was juuuuuuuuuuust around the corner. I guess Harold Camping was just off by a teeny bit, huh?

        • Harold Camping? Sounds familiar. I’ll Google him. But I have been on a unique journey of my own with Spirit. Much of what I believe is from simply reading the bible, reading history, talking with other people and exploring our beliefs and and my own inspirations.

          Is this the time of Revelations, that so many have others have said is now, in history?

          I know what I see. But I don’t worry about that. If this is the time, I’m in the right place, doing exactly what G-d wants of me, no matter what happens. Personally, I don’t mind if that time talked about in the bible isn’t right now. No one sane looks forward to war, oppression, mass murder, death camps, women and children crying, starvation and the smell of rotting bodies. Many thought WW II was that time of Revelation, just ask the Jews in the death camps if they believed it was their personal Armageddon.

          But for many, in Africa and the mid-east, they are facing this right now. Their own version of Armageddon.

          Whether it’s the time of Revelation of the bible, or just another step along the way to that time a thousand years from now, I know one thing, the laws of the universe, of G-d, cannot be violated without consequence. Just as the laws of gravity can seemingly be violated by someone stepping off the edge of a tall building, that person can delude themselves that they are free from those laws, until they come to a sudden stop at the bottom.

          The laws of G-d, can be violated for a time by a society, a culture, a people, as the people of our current time are violating those laws, but the price will be paid, as I see the ground approaching at a high rate of speed.

          I hope I am wrong, but, we, I believe, as people, will see what those other people are experiencing in other parts of the world, our own personal Armageddon as a country, if you will. Is it THE Armageddon of the bible? Maybe. G-d knows. But either way, the price for violating the law of the universe will be paid.

    • You’re not alone Thomas . The other leg in Daniels prophesy Rome # 2 is USA . The antichrist comes from within and even though he is already here he does not know his destiny . All a bunch of malarkey to those who believe that it is . I know absolutely nothing . Hang on brother . Keep the faith and prepare both spiritually and materially for all outcomes .

        • You are not alone ThomasR-but I believe in a pre-tribulation rapture(or translation if you prefer) of the church. Plenty of scripture to back that up. Nothing further has to be fulfilled. And Jack van Impe is fearful lest the Canadian government “persecute” his ministry because of the “hate-speech” laws(in Canada & most of Europe) about homosexual conduct.So they don’t talk about it… I guess we’ll see what happens here in the good ole’ USA. Hang in there…BTW it is the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST-not “revelations”. Even so come LORD JESUS…

  29. If they catch you off guard and your family is in danger and you are overtaken by speed and overwhelming force , sure , you comply . Props to those comments about hiding some , you don’t really have to resort to burial however . The point here is two fold for me . FIRST , I think some gun owners i.e. , lovers , have forsaken their loves for the smart phone . ( Choice ) smart phone or gun ? SECOND , if given the right environment an choices , I would return fire on as many confiscating Nazis as I could until I was both cold and dead and if possible would be using my best body damaging ammo I own . I might just be the martyr that sparks the return to freedom .

  30. Nah. I’m an old guy and most of my productive years are behind me. If they came for my guns (which is science fiction, really), I’d have to unload them first. All of them.

    Made it, Ma! Top of the world!

    • “Nah. I’m an old guy and most of my productive years are behind me.”

      Don’t sell yourself short, Ralph.

      You have many years of methane production ahead of you.

      At the peril of those downwind to you…


  31. The Jews in Germany, the ethnic groups in Russia (Stalin), the people of Venezuela, Argentina, Mexico and the Brits all were disarmed because they never thought (or convinced themselves) anyone was going to hurt them. Disarming a population is a long and arduous process (use the media, change what is taught in school, register a few special guns, squeeze ammunition (per the UN), take them away from vets (our best trained civilian fighting force) and after a few decades you are THERE. We are getting there.
    If you think you’re going to be in a fight and this will be a long one, don’t give an inch anything.

    Give thought to national reciprocity, you may get what you asked for.

    As an aside, do you all really think when the time comes (10 trillion) to haircutting our IRA’s and bank accounts that the government is going to give us plenty of warning about future seizures? In which case I have some beachfront property in south Dakota I’m willing to sell cheap.

  32. It’s going to really depend on the day, my mood and whatever line from the movies happens to surface in my head upon hearing the megaphones outside. Reading the above replies I immediately heard in my head:

    “My general says there is no point in continuing this fighting! He wishes to discuss terms of a surrender!”
    “We haven’t the proper facilities to take you all prisoner! Sorry!”
    “We’d like to, but we can’t accept your surrender! Was there anything else?”


    “Go spit..”

  33. Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death

    Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.

    No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.

    Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.

    I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free– if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending–if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained–we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!

    They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable–and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.

    It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace– but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!

  34. Likely hood the Jack Booted Thugs show up out of the blue? Near zero.

    You should have plenty of warning ahead of time, then partner up with like minded individuals and deal with the thugs on your terms at a time of your choosing. As they say Sic Simper Tyrannis! If you ignore the warnings then you will likely loose more than your guns.

  35. Aleksander Solzhenitsyn in The Gulag Archipelago:

    “And how we burned in the camps later, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, pokers, or whatever else was at hand?… The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin’s thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If…if…We didn’t love freedom enough. And even more – we had no awareness of the real situation…. We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward.”

      • This. Depending on circumstance, your life for the lives of a few others could be a valuable trade. As much as knowledge and culture are important, so is the fighting. The USA could not have been formed without the incidents at Concord and Lexington.

        It’s also important to remember what the world can be like when you have no weapons to fight back with. Watch the German movie The Lives of Others. It’s about a writer living in East Berlin. Having to smuggle in a typewriter because the government has a registry of all typewriters so they can track who wrote what. Having neighbors spying on you to turn you into the stasi. Warrantless searches and people in your attic listening to you 24/7.

        This stuff actually happened. This isn’t Orwell fiction this is what life was like. It was all documented by the party and discovered after the wall fell.

  36. Anyone in the coastline states want to start the revolution? Compared to those of us in fly-over country, you realistically can’t own squat firearm wise. It’s pathetic. On the positive side, you also pay the highest taxes in the land. I guess you get what you pay for. )-:

  37. A very specific scenario. House surrounded and no hope of fighting clear. I would surrender the guns.

    Guns are tools that can be replaced. The man or woman holding the gun is the key component. So long as experienced, like minded folk are available and willing to do the needed, guns can be replaced.

  38. Sorry, but “standing down” and wait for better times is the dumbest thing you could do.

    Who tells you, that they don’t take your guns AND throw you and your family in a FEMA camp or kill you all in the same move?

    If they come for you and you are sure, that there is nothing you have done actively for them showing up at your place, then you have to expect the worst and act accordingly, which means: stand your ground, no matter how many are against you.

    Death is not the worst. Seeing your family being humiliated, your wife and daughters raped in front of your eyes, with you having no chance to end their suffer or to annihilate their tormentors, THAT is worse than immediate death!

  39. To the Former Water Walker , I too would lean towards pre-tribulation theory but having studied both other schools of thought , I won’t bet my soul on it . It would probably be hard to convince the Christians in North Africa and the middle East that they aren’t living in tribulation at this time . Either way , if we stand firm and carry our crosses we should be alright . God Elohim will see us through . I am convinced myself that the dam has already broken and the water is quickly swallowing up everything in it’s path and we better be knocking on all our neighbors doors to spread the word . If they won’t heed your warning then climb the hill as quick as you can .

    • We see through a glass darkly. I support the 700Club but do not agree with the NO rapture preaching by Pat Robertson. I also attend a very large Baptist church in Indiana and disagree with many Calvinist tenants. But I AGREE with the basics. And BOTH do a lot of good and lead many to salvation through Jesus Christ. Bottom line-this is IT. We are there. The early church was based upon changing the world-now the vast majority of American Christians is-can I keep my tax-exempt status? Can I not offend anyone? Can I duck controversy? Instead of salt of the earth-light of the world…

      • Keep the faith ‘ Former ‘ , you are and will always be needed by those in search of . Reason in understanding others differences and staying steady and firm on your own ground . Make yourself a refuge and never shy from your principles . The Lord is your rock and faith in The Lord is the foundation of all that is of value . God bless brother .

  40. “It’s not what you have…… is what the enemy thinks you have.” —— Saul Alinsky

    The Nazi’s disarmed Jews, the result was genocide. The Turks disarmed the Armenians, the result was genocide. Pol Pot disarmed the Cambodians, the result was genocide. The Romans disarmed the Thracians, the result was genocide. The list is endless.

    Mr. Farago is an intelligent and thoughtful man, and one who has natural fears, but the issue may be broader. First, the threat of armed conflict…..if perceived as accurate….may in itself be a deterrent to the gun grabbers. Second, perhaps Mr. Farago’s father was not only strong and resilient, but lucky.

    It seems to me that when it comes down to our government seizing guns, the choice has devolved into “kill me now, or kill me later.”

    I have served this country in the United States Army. I have served this country as a police officer. The thought of firing upon, or returning fire upon the US Military or American police turns my stomach……..but, if gun confiscation becomes a reality……..I recognize that I will probably die in the resulting genocide. I would rather die with American steel in my hands, than on my knees.

  41. The bigger socialist city states will be the canary in the mine shaft. They’ll start there first. Cities are where gun control is pushed hardest, and is still not effective, except to disarm the ones that follow the law. It does not work for them, so they think it will work better to spread disarmament nation wide.

  42. I can’t imagine a single instance where giving up all my guns at gunpoint would be anything other than a death sentence as I “resisted arrest” or more horribly, in some federal lockup. Because even if the press were there, even if I had legal guarantees that I would walk free, “something” terminal would happen to me or mine or both. Because any statist thug worth his salt would know the next thing I’d do is go to war against them.

  43. I am an Eagle Scout. I know how to live off the land. But I’m also old, with grown children. I don’t want to live without Coke-Cola, TP or air conditioning. Also, if I happen to be dead my children and friends can’t be used against me. I think (or at least hope) the rifles and pistols will be empty before I die and hope there are enough of us vets from all wars to make them wish they had never started it. We all took the oath to support the Constitution and I think many of us will.

    With that said, if I were younger, I would surrender what was necessary and hope to fight on with the underground. To each his own.

  44. “If government agents descend upon my house in force, armed and ready for a firefight, I will let them take my guns. I reckon I’d be no good to the pro-liberty, pro-gun side if I’m lying in a pool of my own blood, dead.

    Oh sure, I’d make a damn fine martyr. Gun blogger slain defending his natural, civil and Constitutional right to keep and bear arms. (That’s not how the media would spin it, but you get my gist.) But I’d rather stay alive, escape the long arm of the law and continue the struggle behind a keyboard. Or, if necessary, take up arms in the defense of my country – when I have a better chance of defending myself and freedom from the instruments of oppression.”

    I’ve been through this thought process many times…

    It’s a failure.

    We’re all crouched at the starting line. The starter pistol fires it’s blank round.. We all sit there looking at each other to see who’s going to take off first.

    Is that how you win a race?

    So, someone takes off, and the guy with the starter pistol shoots him dead. Those aren’t blanks!

    We all talk about what a crazy nutter he was…

    Rinse, lather, repeat.

    If we keep making excuses for being cowards, and refuse to back each other up… No matter how carefully reasoned and crafted, making excuses for being a coward is exactly that. No matter how much lipstick you smear on that pig, it still is what it is…

  45. The ‘let them have them so I can live to fight another day’ is the EXACT attitude those in power are hoping for. They REALLY don’t care WHY you don’t resist, they only care that you submitted, and now they can do to you what they wish. When they start kicking in doors en masse they won’t be JUST confiscating guns, they will be hauling you AND your family away to the ‘whatever the hell they are calling it right then’ jail. At that point you and your family live or die at the whim of a petty apparatchik. You willfully gave up your chance to resist.

    When they start rounding up the guns……AND THE PEOPLE…..that is the time to cowboy up and accept that you may die but if you take a couple of them with you it’s OK.
    A few hundred raids costs them a couple thousand badgemonkeys and they will find it a
    LOT harder to get volunteers to continue the assaults.

    NO….surrender and appeasement have NEVER satisfied tyrants.

  46. It’s a matter both strategic and tactical, and really depends on your preparation. Do you have a good set of resistance gear stashed elsewhere? Do you have a place to disappear to? Do you have a hotline to tell others the government is there to help you?

    Ben Franklin advised that if we do not hang together, we shall all certainly hang separately. If we act like loners, if there is no modern version of Paul Revere, then it doesn’t matter if we stand and fight or not, because we will fall alone. So the choice is which option will be more likely to serve as a tripwire — and neither will unless you have a “connection” prepared, some message that can be sent in an instant.

    Patrick Henry’s speech was not given in a living room with little to no audience, it was given to men he felt could be won to action. The time for such speaking and winning is before the threat faces you personally, but once it has become evident to many. It is not a call to individual action, but a call to common action. So whatever your response, should that day come, let it be one that brings a call to common action — otherwise, it is wasted.

  47. Ladies and Gentleman, and I use the term in the older vernacular. I would like to say a profound THANK YOU. What a wonderful thread this was. The thought and politeness all throughout were wonderful. With one exception, The tolerance and thought out replies were what makes this a great site. Religious, secular, Christian, Jew, young and old etc. Things were talked out, debated and agreed/disagreed with and (I only saw one) few trolls. You give me hope for the United States of America. THANK YOU! If this disparate group can discus these topics in such a civil manner we still have hope.


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