TTAG’s been publishing material critical of police on a regular basis—when they deserve it. Which, it must be said, they often do. To substantiate that claim, Ralph has been directing readers to the CATO Institute’s National Police Misconduct Recap for some time. So I contacted CATO (note: not the Green Hornet’s majordomo) and asked for permission to republish that information. Granted. The thing of it is . . .
the majority of the recap is not firearms-related per se. For example, the list includes a link to a story about Tempe, AZ officer Jessica Dever-Jakuz [above] who resigned after facing a charge of hindering prosecution. As I said, nothing gun related save the fact that she’s a police officer who carries a gun. In a state with Constitutional Carry, no less.
Despite the lack of gun-branding—we’re The Truth About Guns not The Truth About People Who Carry Guns—I’m considering publishing the list to make an important point: there’s no justification for giving cops the “right” to carry firearms, magazines and bullets denied to their fellow non-LEO civilians. Not to mention their free-pass on carry in every one of these United States and within areas defined by the Gun Free School Zones Act. As well as other carve-outs.
I’d intro the post like NYT anti-gun agitator Joe Nocera’s odious Gun Report, making that point, or something similar. What do you think? Here’s a sample of CATO’s list . . .
Here are the 9 reports of police misconduct tracked for Thursday, October 31, 2013:
- Update: Skokie, Illinois (First reported 10-10-13): A police officer has been charged after he was captured on video shoving a detainee into a cell with such force she hit her head on a concrete bench. He was charged with aggravated battery and official misconduct. http://ow.ly/qmoOc
- St. Paul, Minnesota: A man claims two city police officers used unnecessary force when they arrested him because he wouldn’t turn down music playing in his apartment. The officers dispute all of his claims. http://ow.ly/qmEAE
- Update: Tampa, Florida (First reported 06-05-13): An officer who was fired after he spent hours drinking at a topless bar while on duty with his partner has been reinstated. Police attorneys said the officer thought his partner had logged them as off-duty. http://ow.ly/qmF19
- Los Angeles County, California: A jury has convicted a sheriff’s deputy of repeatedly assaulting and threatening his girlfriend after she discovered he was having an affair. He faces up to eight years in state prison when he is sentenced. ow.ly/qmHnn
- Update: Jupiter, Florida (First reported 09-12-13): An attorney for the officer charged with aggravated battery with a deadly weapon said videotape released by the state attorney’s office showed the charge against the veteran law enforcement officer wasn’t warranted. ow.ly/qmrM3
- La Crosse, Wisconsin: The state justice department has charged a former police lieutenant with trying to steal pain pills. The officer resigned after he was arrested. http://ow.ly/qmFKy
- Whitley County, Kentucky: The now-former sheriff was sentenced to 17 years and ordered to pay $335,188 in restitution. The indictment charges him with 12 counts of abuse of public trust exceeding $10,000 but less than $100,000, 6 counts of abuse of public trust less than $10,000 and 3 counts of tampering with physical evidence. http://ow.ly/qoXd9
- Tempe, Arizona: A police officer has resigned and faces the possibility of criminal charges. Police have confirmed there is an investigation involving hindering prosecution happening within the department.http://ow.ly/qmmWS
- Macedon, New York: A police officer is accused of removing an item of evidence from the police department for his personal benefit. He is also accused of stealing approximately $2,200 from the Macedon Association of Police Officers. ow.ly/qnmxW
Hell yeah publish it.
I would say yes.
Now no disrespect to our LEO friends out there, but…
We need to look at what is happening in our law enforcement and provide constructive ways to fix it. Ignoring what is happening isn’t helping.
If you think there would be much if any “providing constructive ways of fixing it” in these posts, then I would like some of what you’re smoking. My guess is upwards of 90% of the ways proposed of “fixing it” will involve termination (of employment), incarceration, and/or termination (of respiration). But I’ll play along…
You’ve now looked at what’s happening. Provide me a constructive way to fix it.
Or this one:
Whaddya got?
For the record, I didn’t pick either of those because I thought an answer would be hard. I just picked two at random from the list above.
Give all officers a more thorough psych eval when signing up and hold them to higher standards i.e. if you’re a cop and you get caught commiting a crime you do double the time. No probation, no time off for good behavior, no parole, and you get fired plus you pay for damages restitution etc.
Do that with politicians also, LOL!
The ‘psych exams’ they do now are a joke.They are arbitrary, often unscientific, and open to interpretation- meaning that they are a great way to keep out certain candidates or keep in other ones based on reasons that can’t be documented.
Unfortunately I don’t see any way to make them better. A exhaustive background investigation is the best way to keep bad apples out. “Psych exams” and polygraphs are crutches that make departments THINK they’re doing something useful when that money would be better spent on real policework.
If (when) they have that same information about POTG they do not hesitate to publish it, whether or not a gun is involved or even in the vicinity. Cops are people too and they must be held accountable for their actions, gun related or otherwise, not held up as some sort of infallible beings.
“Give all officers a more thorough psych eval when signing up and hold them to higher standards i.e. if you’re a cop and you get caught commiting a crime you do double the time.”
As for the first, I like this suggestion, but law enforcement agencies are SO busy looking for “candidates” with a sub-100 IQ (they don’t look into things or question policies [polices] or orders.) Kind of hard to change THAT overlay, but hell, why not DO it?
And the policy of seeking out and hiring recent veterans of high-combat zones HAS to change; they come home, find themselves behind a badge, with a gun, and we wonder why they look upon us as the “enemy”.
As for the double-time thing, ABSOLUTELY! The penalty must be a clear message that “we WILL hold you to a higher standard than the people you “police”; break that trust and you WILL do the time!
Far as I know now when you come home from combat you talk to a shrink a couple times, if that shrink sees anything wrong you get sent to mental health out at wounded warriors. As for the vets seeing everyone else as the enemy I dunno I can only speak for myself and a couple other veterans it wasn’t so much as seeing yall as the enemy but reacting as we had become accustomed to while dealing with LNs (Local Nationals).
I would say only crimes that would have your gun rights suspended. Felonies, domestic violence, etc. This and follow up to see if there was any real consequence suffered on the part of the perpetrator.
Edit: This was supposed to be a standalone comment…
So you’d claim all these shaved head, rayban weraring wannabe Johnnie Rambos are vets? Prove it.
I’ll accept that there may be some REMF types in your “bad apple” crowd but I doubt combat arms vets. I’ll theorize the wannabes are the lardass that didn’t have what it took (internally) to raise their right hand. Sounds like you didn’t have what it took either.
The horse is dead, put the stick down.
Focus on what the blog is here for: gun stuff. You can always make “The Truth about Cops” if you just really have to vent on it some more.
TTAC: Not the worst idea on the internet.
Just realized TTAC exists, so it would have to be TTAP.
Just a moment here! I’m in the planning stages for THE TRUTH ABOUT THE POLICE STATE.
But go ahead, come to think of it: the more the, ah, merrier…
+1
Nope. Don’t publish it. Police are human too, and some fail at upholding the trust we put in them. None of the situations in the list involves guns, either.
If you want to focus on cops and whether they deserve ______ (whatever they get), create a new blog for it. I don’t want to see it here.
Please, please no. There’s enough cop hate on here (some of it’s even warranted!) for the gun-related stuff they do wrong. Please, please do not start publishing lists of non-gun-related things, too. I understand the point you say you’d be trying to make, but I promise you, each and every post will almost inevitably devolve into a vitriol-filled hatefest. Some people are already knee-jerk nasty as soon as any LEO is mentioned, and this would just give them fuel for the fire, and a dedicated outlet.
Please, please no. As you said, this is not The Truth About People Who Carry Guns. There are 9 examples above, not one of which mentions guns in any shape, form, or fashion. And frankly, I don’t care about those stories, unless I lived in or near where they took place. Those are local stories, for the local paper. There’s a reason you don’t see them on CNN.
Please, please no. It would serve no purpose here. Again, I understand your stated point, but I think it would fail miserably at that purpose. It would be highly unlikely to sway those who are against us, and the muck that would be raked in the comment sections would have a very large chance of alienating those who are on the fence. It would be no help to us, and likely prove to be an ultimate detriment.
So in case it was unclear. Please. Please no.
It would however, give some of us great talking points to counter the anti’s arguement that police are perfect angels highly trained and always have the public’s best interest at heart.
We’ve already got tons of things to talk about that are gun related. I don’t need a story about a cop drinking in a titty bar to make my case. Besides, any of the stories up there that don’t involve violence would be very easy to rebut with the statement that they “don’t have anything to do with the officer’s ability to safely carry a firearm.”
Well I bet that cop had his piece on him in that titty bar and far as I know, no where allows you to carry in a bar and drink.
No, it won’t prove anything, because it doesn’t include “statistical context”. It is only anecdotal evidence, which proves nothing about the general situation. How many cops are there in the USA – sheriffs/deputies, city/town police, state police, FBI, DHS, NIS, etc. etc.? And what small percentage of them are bad? We have no way of knowing, because that context is not provided.
It can only give all cops a bad reputation, when the vast majority of them do not deserve it. Nothing good will come from it.
I agree with Matt
How do those boots taste, Matt?
Oh, fuck you.
+1
+1
Hey, I’m not the one who’s defending those who continually violate our rights. Yes, I know as children we’re all told that “the police / military are the good guys!”, but anyone who can read and is over the age of 15 should know otherwise. You have the facts put right in front of you time after time, yet you want to insist that they’re somehow “good” because they tell you that they’re the good guys while beating your face in with a baton.
Uh huh. Nice strawman (men) you propped up there. Nowhere did I say anything you just proffered. Nowhere did I defend their bad behavior. I just said I don’t think stories about drug use and impeding investigations belongs here, unless it’s gun related.
William Burke, Totenglocke, Craig. How about it RF? Is this the discourse you built this site for? Are these 3 and their like all you think this site is worth? We’re circling the drain hear and well on our way to being exactly the looney fringe site that people like mikeyb, hummmmmmer and the rest of that lot accused us of. Is that the legacy you had in mind for TTAG?
+1. What kind of place do you want to see this? Everytime you enable cop-bashing, you push apart two groups that, by all accounts, should be working together.
Hannibal, if you think gun owners can “work with” the police who are constantly violating our rights, then you’re just as bad as the Fudd’s. Remember, every unconstitutional law depends on the police to enforce it – and they do it with a smile on their face as they ruin people’s lives.
+1, How do those boots taste?
Same answer.
Shiny shiny, shiny boots of leather…
Well damn, that lazy, facile comment worthy of the anti-gunners reflexive reactions to anything gun-related has convinced me that a website dedicated to firearms definitely needs to provide a service already provided by multiple other sites, oh, and boost page views.
So in case it was unclear. Please. Please no.
You didn’t say pretty please. With sugar on top.
Grabbers and Antis are comfortable relying on ‘The Law’ to be fair, just, ethical, reliable protectors and safe keepers of society at the cost of Second Amendment protections for the rest of society.
That being the case, the truthfulness of that proposition and philosophy must be scrutinized as a corollary issue of the larger gun control effort; there is every reason to thoroughly examine the legitimacy of this presumption by the grabber crowd.
Bring that data on so we can all see if the Democrats, Grabbers and Antis really have a legitimate argument, or are just blowing happy smoke up everyone’s collective arses to add false justification for their arguments for disarming the rest of the nation.
I already know the answer.
P.S. It’s a satellite gun control issue that should not overshadow the larger 2A discussions.
I’m with Matt on this one in all particulars. It’s just not a fit.
As a LEO, hell yeah publish it.
I thank you.
I’ll add a thank you, too.
If I want to check out LEOs behaving badly I would go do that. Lets keep it to gun related material. That is what got me sucked into the world of TTAG anyway.(Partially The Truth About Cars) I understand the reasoning behind it, but I think we can support the idea that LEOs should not have special privileges in bearing firearms and they are not uber super special paragons of humanity like the statists believe.
One of the biggest anti statements is that only LEO’s can possess certain guns, I would say that this report has relevance at TTAG in rebutting this.
But that argument usually has to do with their “training and expertise” much more often than it has to do with their high moral standing. A story about a cop “hindering a prosecution” might say that guy shouldn’t be a cop, but it doesn’t say that he shouldn’t be able to carry a gun, and more importantly, it doesn’t do anything to say that I should be able to.
I agree. They should publish thier testing standards and the individual officers scores…
The antis are trying to take our rights be you a civilian, veteran, hunter, gun smith, soccer mom or retired cop. Those stories could be character examples. I get where you’re comin from in my old National Guard unit we had 2 prison guards 3 sheriffs and 1 town cop they were alright guys I’m not sayin all cops are bad, but we should have numbers and examples for the old arguement that cops are more law abiding than the rest of us.
Pulling data from the CATO site, fine. But wholesale republishing? That seems like feeding the irrational cop-haters and padding the hits/page views stats with stuff that ain’t really about guns.
That could very well be I would honestly be happy if they went for the middle ground so many have suggested and just published the gun stuff in that report.
When you present examples of abuse by police officers to the likes of Shannon Watts and Mark Kelly they act as though these stories are complete fiction. Never mind the fact that many of these cases were reported by local media outlets. Scary to think we have citizens who take a complete blind eye to government excesses.
Still been waiting for one member of any gun control group to defend police exemptions from gun and magazine bans.
LEO’s should hold themselves to the highest standards. Failing that, they cannot complain if someone else does. RUN THE REPORTS!
Two thoughts: I particularly value the editorial wisdom displayed by asking the question of whether to publish, and the civility displayed here when someone is less than civil in their comments.
Thanks!
Matt is of course right that these will devolve into some pretty nasty comments. Just as POTG hate to be painted with too broad a brush, so should we avoid that error with posts such as these, however, to give a little sampling from time to time might be reasonable and proper. It is all too easy for people to get the impression that LEOs are some sort of special type of people who can do no wrong and others to see only the errors they make and mistrust all of them. The truth, as usual is somewhere in the middle, but you cannot find the middle if you do not see the edges. That said, temper these posts with posts about LEOs who done good. Maybe combine the two into a single post, just for balance.
Yes, publish it.
I think you should publish it.
As a police officer I DO feel Law Enforcement should be held to a higher standard. The only problem I have with this is: some people dont understand that LE is a difficult job, there is a lot of grey area, it’s not always black and white. Most of the time when mistakes are made by cops it’s due to a lack of training which is a result of bad leadership (politicians are at the top). Law Enforcement is low pay, long hours, having to deal with criminals/assholes on a daily basis and very little in terms of a finished product to see at the end of the day (sometimes I feel a sense of accomplishment but its rare). So, please guys, dont just use it as a opportunity to be disrespectful. Use it as motivation to become pro-active and attended city council meetings or call/Email your state/county representatives and let them know if a law or ordinance is not being enforced properly or if officers are abusing their authority. Dont just say “fuckin pigs” because all that does is cause more divisiveness between police and civilians.
Police are civilians.
See it’s shit like this^^^ that I’m talking about. This is why cops are dicks because people like you nickel and dime us over nonsense. Grow the fuck up.
Oh, so it’s our fault you can’t deal with your emotions in a mature, civilized manner, but are forced to take it out on us by being dicks?
I’m not going to quibble over the definition of civilian, because I’m sure you can find a dictionary that agrees with you just like I can. But I will say that cops are supposed to serve and protect, and be coequal with non-LEOs, except that they are sworn to do their job. But many think that makes them somehow “better” when that’s not the case. Constantly drawing a distinction between cops and civilians just exacerbates that feeling of superiority. They’re not better, just different. They have a job to do, and they do it.
It’s interesting to me that firemen and paramedics and EMTs are all similar to cops in that they are all members of a fairly closed fraternity, and yet they don’t generally show the open elitism and superiority that LEOs do. Why is that?
And it is responses like yours that continue to push people into mistrusting the police. Trying to justify shitty behavior through “it’s a tough job” isn’t a friggin’ excuse. Snapping at people who point out a valid point doesn’t help.
Thank you. That needed saying.
Mostly valid points, but then you had to close by invoking a BS distinction between cops and civilians. Cops are civilians, just like the rest of us who aren’t active duty military.
99% of police depts. have a military style rank structure. As a sworn LEO I have arrest authority “civilians” can make a citizen’s arrest but it’s not the same thing. The definition of a civilian is: “one not on active duty in the armed services or not on a police or firefighting force” (merriam-webster). So like I said, grow up.
Oh well. RF’s defining moment as a teenager has led to this. TTAG will now get to rant even more about cops until we get to the point the site is irrelevent for anything but cop bashing. What then?
+1
I wish we could just get back to the guns.
It seems more like copblock everyday. It’s amazing how some people will form their opinions based on one thing that happened to them by one person years ago that… gasp… they probably partially brought on themselves. I know because there are people like that in my family…
I would say that unless it involves misconduct with guns then it doesn’t belong here.
I come here for firearms related news, which sometimes involves Law Enforcement. I dont give a crap about 2 cops in a topless bar on the clock.
Make another site, call it The Truth About Cops, if I want some law enforcement news, i will go check it.
I’ve got plenty of stories about local cops and only know of one that actually got fired. Lets just say he was DOING something else when a big street fight broke out at a mexican restaurant and another cop got hurt.
I vote Yes.
It’s true these incidents happen all day, everyday, so consider doing a Friday wrap-up of the past week called, “Bad Cops, Bad Cops, Whatcha Gonna Do?”
Something else to consider is that, in the name of fair balance, publish weekly wrap-ups of Good Cops caught in the act of doing really good things.
Just a thought.
http://www.copblock.org/
There you go… they even have t-shirts you can buy. The proceeds go to keeping murderers on the street.
I don’t mind the police militarization articles now and again, or even the occasional cop leaving his handgun on the toilet story. But this is a step too far for me, and I tend to agree with Ralph on this issue. Plus, I suspect that a large amount of your readership reads the comments. Those who are interested have already read this material by clicking on Ralph’s link. You’ve already provided an appropriate forum to disseminate this information. Your job is done.
Don’t publish. I want the American people to remain ignorant of illegal police actions.
They can read about that on a website dedicated to publishing such information, say, the one RF is pulling from. Oh no, you have to go to another web address! Woe is you!
…Or Gyufygy could find a different website, since he seems like a FUDD or a collaborator.
Why? Because I don’t think every site on the internet needs to be dedicated to the numerous misdeeds of those in power? Because I think a website dedicated to firearms reporting on stuff that, for the most part, isn’t firearms related? I think the CATO site and others like it are brilliant. I think they are great sources for data against anti gunners. Copying the site, even with permission, is silly and draws attention (and hits) away from the people actually documenting police misconduct.
Mmmmm, nice sentence fragment that I can’t fix in there. Phooie.
The only thing worse than a criminal is a bad cop…
… that said, most cops are good and support gun rights. However, as long as it fits the Irresponsible Gun Owner criteria, why not?
+1
I say publish because the anti-right cops and liberals always say that normal, i.e. non cop non military gun owners lack “training” and cops just have the special something.
Even if not gun related, we need to show that cops are fallible, just like how IGOTD shows that gun owners/possessors in general aren’t perfect. One thing I hear is that cops are held to a higher standard, so, let’s get holding!
Yes, the grabber’s rhetoric that The Law can protect people in the absence of citizen armament and self protection must be put to bed.
LEOs primary function isn’t to be our security detail, but rather to arrest us if or when we break the law.
Why the hell NOT?
Maybe because there’s already a site that documents cops behaving badly? It’s the CATO site that these anecdotes would be pulled from. So what’s the point of diluting the focus of this site when the information is already readily available and collected elsewhere for anyone who wants to read it?
maybe. on the one hand, in some cases the only way to hold police accountable is through public shaming, because the govt pays for the attorneys and the settlements – even when they shoot up ooops some civilians by mistake in search of a criminal. I don’t think we should confuse the fact that some police are bad guys with the fact that most are not. Just as we should not confuse the fact that some gun owners are irresponsible with the fact that most are responsible.
On the other hand, there are probably three quarters of a million police officers in the USA [wikipedia quotes the BLS on this]. That means that even if 99% are good and upstanding, on any given day, you can still find 20 doing something naughty. 1 or 2 doing something really naughty.
I am far less interested in the events themselves. In a population of 750k, you will find some rotten apples, more than a few. I am more interested in the incentives. Are the officers fired? held accountable? shielded from responsibility? How does the police union protect its monopoly on force and public safety?
You get more of what you subsidize, how are we subsidizing police officer’s risk taking?
Democrats are not against CCW because of public safety concerns, they are against it because they want to protect the unions. Pure and simple. The rest is pure B.S. I am a fan of anything that drives a wedge in there.
Perhaps this site should take a hint from thefirearmsblog. Guns not politics
You can’t separate politics and guns. You can’t publish articles about AR-15s one day and never comment on gun control bills being proposed the next, and then the day after an AWB passes, calmly state “We can no longer own AR-15s, please turn them in to your local constabulary.”
Guns and politics are so interwoven that ignoring the political side is just going to limit the amount of guns people can have. One day, if we ignore politics, we’ll be looking at “The Truth about Single Shot .22lr Rifles That Require 3 Years to Get Licenses For, Plus More Physical and Psychological Exams Than an Astronaut.”
Absolutely true. Politics and guns are like the glove and the hand. A nice, leather glove with knuckles itching to abuse…
Don’t publish it. Referencing other sites or stats as part of an argument or justification for an opinion relating to firearms is fine but to repost CATO’s reports detracts from the purpose of the site and my reason for coming here. Yes cops should be held to a higher standard but I don’t think that pointing out their failings is the purpose of this site and it will just look like or devolve into cop bashing.
If you really thought it belonged here you would not need to ask the question.
Smells like mission creep of the most redundant kind, what with there being a website dedicated to calling out police misconduct.
I just don’t see the value in publishing whole cloth. If I were to publish anything, cherry picked gun-related items would be best. I believe that’s what’s being done now, so carry on.
And for those who just can’t live without their daily dose of “Cops Gone Wild,” please look at other sites.
If you’re counting votes my vote goes towards publishing only the egregious of incidents, especially those involving firearms or the repression of the people of the gun. If you put in every single naughty cop story it’s going to get old fast.
I wouldn’t have any problems with reading that, so long as you make it clear that:
1) Police misconduct is the province of a statistically very small percentage of police officer, in the same manner, if not exact degree, as murders by Concealed Carry Permit holders is a miniscule percentage of Permit holders, and
2) Just as we wish not to be judged as gun owners by the actions of a tiny fraction of crazies, police officers AS A WHOLE do not deserve to be tarred with the same brush as Chicago crooks.
Do they deserve special priviliges? Absolutely No. Do they perform a necessary function which is worthy of respect? Absolutely Yes.
I say do it. Maybe.
The cases that absolutely relate to guns. Yes.
The rest? Cherry pick the worst of the worst. Those ones show why you NEED to be able to defend yourself. Even against rogue cops.
ROGUE being the keyword here.
I am NOT advocating taking an AR/AK down to the local station and slaughtering the men and women inside in the slightest. That is not the point of my message here.
But these are the examples of police brutality WORSE than what had people rioting in the streets for Rodney King. Yet nowadays these “incidents” happen more and more, with less and less repercussions to the scumbag officers and prosecutors involved.
While Matt in FL is correct that the comment section will become a toxic wasteland against cops, probably with NWA’s “F*** tha Police” playing on loop, these incidents needs to become more common knowledge. There are several various websites that already catalog the incidents but I doubt that they reach HALF the crowd TTAG does.
These stories may not immediately connect guns=good but they DO push more and more people to realize that the current government=bad. Hopefully those people then connect the more guns in the hands of citizens equals a polite-government-and-police-force-that-doesn’t-get-away-with-this-shit aspect.
One can hope.
I gotta say it.”Rouge Cops.” Is that just female cops? Cross dressing cops? Undercover transgender cops? Somebody stop me before I offend again.
I fixed it for him. I played World of Warcraft for 7 years. One of the classes you can play is the rogue. I got so used to seeing it spelled rouge that I read his comment twice before it registered.
Rogues do it from behind!
Adventurers do it till they take an arrow in the knee.
These are the civilians the antis (on the quest to revoke the 2nd Amendment) put up on a pedestal as the protection we are to rely on in a pinch. Going to the bar on the clock is stealing as are three more from the list. Show me a thief and I’ll show you a liar. What will a liar lie about?
Run the list and for each one, run another that shows a cop in a good light -heroic stuff or “found the money and turned it in” kind of story. All government officials need the light of truth shown upon them.
Run it during a slow news Saturday evening with a CNG (Cops -n- No Guns) notation in the title so the folks that don’t want to see do not have to partake.
I’m ok with it as long as it is gun related, and as long is it is reasonably well substantiated. I play a pretty clean game, and I’ve been accused (and exonerated) of grand theft. The complaint was completely bogus, and my bank account records reflect the same. The complaint was frivolous regarding an arrestee who is now in prison, and simply wanted to get back to me. Probably 80-90 % of the complaints our office receives are retaliatory in nature.
An allegation, without evidence, isn’t much to go on. I would not have been happy to have my unsubstantiated allegations published. I need facts – truth. If I can’t find it here I’ll look for it elsewhere.
If there are real facts with concrete support (especially videos) such as the Fullerton PD fatal beating of the homeless man, than it is potentially TTAG’s duty to report such things as abuse of authority by government sponsored gun carriers. Please, for the love of God, avoid the speculative BS that is clogging the airwaves. And continue to report the good things done by police as well.
Please no. I’m a huge fan of bringing cops and their misdeeds, misdemeanors and treasonous behaviors to light. But I would rather frequent ttac than ttac dressed up like ttag. Don’t publish please.
With all respect I vote no.
I would rather see more gun and equipment articles/reviews. I think there is a place for spreading the reports mentioned (WE the people are the ones that should watch the watchers.) but I am afraid it would defocus the site too much.
No, I prefer if you didn’t. I have no love for bad officers, but unless its cops shooting the family dog don’t.
I vote no.
I agree with JWM and Matt in FL. If it isn’t firearm related it shouldn’t be posted.
I say don’t publish it. It’s off subject and there really is no point to it. While people like us can point to it and say look here cops are far from perfect yet they are allowed to carry firearms, we already knew that. It however will not convince any body who disagrees with normal people carrying firearms, and the Anti’s could literally publish the exact same thing to make there own point. They just have to say “Look here, cops screw up all the time despite massive amounts of training and yet those pro gun groups think people with little to no training should be armed. There would be a river of blood in the streets.”
Unfortunately for us their emotional argument is far more appealing to some one that is clueless than our fact base argument. In fact I don’t think they have to be a hardcore anti, to come to the anti’s emotional conclusion. I think at least 2/3 of people that are even slightly anti will draw that emotional conclusion on there own, if we try to point out how often cops screw up.
Won’t this draw attention, hits/page views, and Google links away from the site actually doing the documenting of misdeeds, anyway?
The mission of policemisconduct.net is to report on all police misconduct, including the most mundane. Cop gets drunk and wrecks his cruiser. Cop whacks his old lady upside the head. Cop gets caught stealing drugs from the evidence locker. Cop boinks underage girl on the hood of his cop car. This seems to be an especially popular pursuit among LEOs, even though it looks quite uncomfortable.
While the stories prove the point that cops are no paragons of virtue, they do not relate to gun rights.
But the stories that do relate to gun rights should receive the widest possible dissemination. Or are we all such fools that we think that tyranny begins and ends in the halls of Washington and not on the streets of America?
I would publish only issues and incidents that relate to firearms policy by police departments and agencies, and examples where these departments/agencies exempt themselves from their own policies when their members are caught violating said policies.
Examples of police misconduct are widespread, and thanks the the Interwebz (which, I’ve been informed by a US Senator, is a “series of tubes,”) we can find blogs and sites dedicated to this subject matter. Taking up space & time here on matters of (eg) LEO domestic violence isn’t productive, I fear.
Simple just republish here the stories that deal directly with police misconduct involving firearms.
Do it!
Well I do believe I have changed my mind I see Matt and others’ point of view. Long as it’s gun related post it then maybe a couple of the really nasty ones but not the whole damn thing. Also thanks Matt I enjoyed the back and forth earlier I just wish everyone could be as civil to you as I was. Oh does anyone know if them two cops in the titty bar were packin?? I can’t get the story to load on my phone it keeps crashin the browser.
The story says they were undercover at the time, but my guess is they were still armed. Florida law is pretty liberal when it comes to alcohol. The only real restriction is you can’t discharge a firearm or have a firearm readily accessible for immediate discharge (defined as “loaded and in a person’s hand”) while you are “affected to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired.” And even that doesn’t apply if you are acting in self-defense. Basically, it’s illegal to handle or fire a loaded gun while you’re loaded. Possession and carry is just fine.
Oh wow… I thought that would’ve included carried on person.
The last time I got thrown out of a titty bar(it was actually a bare assed nekkid bar) I didn’t have a gun. I was loaded in spite of that, however, which led to my premature ejection from the premises.
Apparently attempting to get on stage and dance with the nekkid females is considered a breach of manners in one of them places. Who knew?
For those that have never had the experience; having a door opend with your head, being thrown into a face down skid on a gravel parking lot and having said skid halted by the tire of a parked pickup really fvcking hurts. Not so much at the moment, but the next day when the booze wears off.
Alcohol, nekkid jezebels and biker bouncers. Man, those were the days.
Well there’s a fact I couldve went my life without knowin. Man don’t advertise your premature ejection issues…
The police are so special, shiny and responsible that they get exceptions in the shit sandwich bills the rest of us get fed.
They are constantly harped on as the responsible, trained reason why us mere mortals can’t and shouldn’t be allowed to own or carry.
Screw that, publish it. Sick of badge worshipers painting this sunny picture of LEO’s as brave and wonderful by default. Consider it an informative bit on the countries largest armed gang.
Anything you can publish that sticks it too the other side ,Go For It,they would!
As a retired cop, here’s my $.02.
If it’s firearms related, why not? If it’s about some idiot off duty cop that got drunk and wrecked the family car, then why?
If it’s about an example Matt in FL gave earlier about a cop stealing meds, why?
Firemen commit crimes, as do doctors, rabbis, and used car salesmen.
Not sure I’ve seen any posts here about any HVAC guys stealing copper, then again, why?
It’s TTAG.
The posts we have seen about dumb cops doing dumb things with guns have been appropriate.
Some of the ones about cops looking more and more like the military seem maybe a little much, but when it shows the disparity of police getting exempted from laws affecting the general population, then I agree.
What I personally find offensive is some of the comments some stories elicit. “Don’t talk to pigs” in the recent post about what not to say after a DGU.
But there’s always going to be folks who have that opinion, no matter what a police officer does or doesn’t do.
Suggestion to those who really dislike the police, join up and change it from within. What’s that about not judging a man till you walk a mile in his shoes?
I’ll not even attempt to apologize for a cop that is an absolute jerk to someone for no reason other than the cop is a jerk.
Just as I don’t dislike all doctors because one misdiagnosed me and caused a year of agony. Please don’t hate all cops because one is a jerk. The next one might save you or a relative.
I’ll toot my own horn here, I had two life saving awards for kissing dead people, (AKA CPR), and one accommodation for talking a guy out of suicide by shotgun.
I, for one, thought I did the right thing, and did the thing right.
Let the flames begin…
+1. Well said, sir.
As an LEO and Pro 2A- I agree if its Gun related then yes post it, this site should stay focused on why it’s is successful- Guns and the 2A.
I see no reason for “The Truth About Guns” to publish stories about cops which have nothing to do with guns. Several of the items listed in the article appear to be nothing more than “accusations made”. Does that mean all of the accusations are made up? No way, there are absolutely some POS cops out there. Now, as others have pointed out, if the story was specifically about a cop using/misusing a gun, or abusing a lawful gun-owner because of said gun, then that would seem relevant to this site.
But what, exactly, does otherwise besmirching a bunch of (potentially innocent) cops have to do with the truth about guns? Because somehow there being bad cops in the world will convince the bed-wetting progs that we should obviously allow the unwashed masses to own firearms to defend themselves from tyranny? Not likely.
More likely, the comment section will devolve into the usual half-dozen maladjusted, paranoid, delusional basement dwellers screaming “F**K THE PIGS” while foaming at the mouth and generally embarrassing by association everyone who’s ever even thought about owning a gun. So really, I guess nothing much would change about the comment section.
Hey, maybe it would give the resident serial stalker/sexual predator someone else to fixate on for a while! I mean, that cop in the picture is a female, right? Maybe he can regale us all with his fantasies about her for a while rather than the MDA dolt. Because that sort of crap is certainly what wins hearts and minds. Nothing disgusting and creepy about openly discussing stalking and assaulting someone for exercising her first amendment right to petition for a change in the law, right?
Eh, whatever. I only discovered this site a few months ago, and I have to say, the downward arc in the comment section has been evident over even that short period. I vote no on the cop-bashing as it will only serve to inflame the basement denizens and serve no useful purpose.
Publish all cops behaving badly? No, it adds nothing to site as a whole.
Publish cops stepping on gun rights , or misusing guns? Go for it.
…there’s no justification for giving cops the “right” to carry firearms, magazines and bullets denied to their fellow non-LEO civilians.
As long as you keep that premise in focus, publish it. All of it. Every single incident.
On balance the answer seems clear enough: no.
I’ll publish material about rogue or bad cops when the story is firearms related. And fits the tempo of the site. Otherwise, no. I won’t republish material which makes the general point that police should not be regarded as “the only ones.”
Unless they get another friggin’ gun control carve out. Then sure, a post specifically dealing with that subject, quoting some of the CATO stuff.
Fair enough? Anyway, thanks for helping me clarify my thinking. As always.
I missed your comment before posting my suggestion. Your house, your rules. I respect your decision.
You’re welcome Robert thanks for listenin. How did the debate go?
You mean like the once CT put through that not only exempts officers but also department of corrections, the military and the department of public safety(including the DMV)?
Robert,
Your site, your rules.
Thank you.
“The right of the people to keep and bear arms” is “necessary to the security of a free state” and law enforcement encounters comprise a large chunk of our daily interactions with agents of government. As such, I would suggest that a reliable list of potential law enforcement misdeeds is of general interest and should be posted.
Yes, post it, please.
If it involves negligent or criminal firearm useage, then post it. If not, then it doesn’t further the case that police officers are undeserving of “exemptions” from laws hindering citizens from protecting themselves.
Thats a good decision.
Friends – I was a federal offiecr for over 31 years. Public Officer = Public Trust. Publish it and update it every damn day. We’re supposed to be PeaceKEEPERS… not PeaceMAKERS or Law EnFORCErs. The thin blue line, like the thin red line years ago- was always MEANT to be a line against the darkness NOT the cause of it…
It’s posts like this that give me some hope. Thank you, sir!
Peace officers for the win.
I wish I could accept John… but honestly I walked away… partly because they were pushing all of us in a professional direction I could not go. Much talked about here. Partly also because I have deep seated issues with politics both intruding into police work on the street (I know – Everybody thinks and says it does already- but if you’re not behind a shield you have no idea how far its going now) and more and more politics is running who moves up to run the show… again it always has but now… It’s the politics side of this that I fear most… Officers nowadays are more concerned with protecting their jobs than doing what’s right… No longer a profession… now its just a job… and not mine anymore. If you believe ANYTHING I say… DON’T TALK TO COPS without a lawyer present and no they can’t search your car or they’ll just get a K-9… If I sound like a wannabe or troll to some readers- curriculum vitae available upon request.
You can accept the gratitude. You chose your path based upon your ethics and, from where I sit, they look to be intact and working as designed. You are posting; getting the word out. It’s a necessary thing and, again, I thank you.
Regarding your very good advice; I try to impress that upon everybody I can. Unfortunately, not answering someone is something that I’ve been raised to believe is rude. I’ve had to change the way I behave in public in order to try to train myself over the years that “It’s okay to not answer someone when the situation dictates.” Really, I think many people, at their core, don’t want to be rude so they answer questions if asked enough in the right way. Being basically a ‘people person’, I still have to resist that urge. Your post has reenforced that 100 fold for me! I’ve never allowed a search of my vehicle. Since the 1980s I’ve been flat out denying searches and that seems to come natural to me. 😉
My vote would be “no” in general. Reference it when it’s topical, though, including whenever the “only police and military” argument is trotted out.
Since these overpaid thugs will be the ones trying to take our firearms, yes, print it all. The more people who have their eyes opened to just how corrupt and thuggish the average cop is, the better. The number of good cops can be counted on one hand. If they protect their “bad” brothers, then the “good” cops are not good, they are just as corrupt as all the rest.
The gentleman above me is a prime example of why I don’t think these posts would go anywhere productive.
+1 Matt
Another +1 from an old cop…
Yes, publish it.
And maybe it’s time for you guys to open up a new website. TTAC
As it is, I say no.
We hear MM publishing speculation, and charges all the time, and we respond to it with approbation because they are only charges, and not convictions. I say if you want to filter it down to the incidents where the officers have been convicted of something, or faced official corrective action, then publish it. If you don’t want to go through that work, then don’t publish speculation.
Nah, your occasional idiot gun owner of the day featuring morons in uniform who shoot deadly chihuahuas and leave loaded AR-15s unsecured on their motorcycles is enough.
No. You’re straying from your area of expertise and the stated mission of this site.
Cherry pick the gun related misconduct and publish your thoughts and open the floor for discourse, but otherwise, what’s the point of publishing every instance of police misconduct? To dog pile on LEOs? Too open ended for my taste.
As far as it highlights the absurdity of the carve-outs and special privileges for weapons – Yes! The sooner the grabbers realize that the people they claim will protect us when we are all disarmed are themselves just flawed human beings with their own moral hick-ups emotional biases, the better.
Publish away.
Please publish it. This is the kind of information that liberty loving Americans need to push back against the arming of local and state police forces like a banana republic palace guard. The police in the US today are an existential threat to our rights as American citizens. They have collaborated with federal law enforcement, tech companies, the NSA, and the military in DHS/DOJ intelligence fusion centers that have facilitated the warrantless and illegal surveillance and collection of intelligence against Americans. They are no more trustworthy than the IRS agents who conspired to discriminate against fellow Americans. These stories show that state and local police officers are just lower middle class working class Joe’s with the same kinds of character and anger management problems that are equally present in all social and economic strata. They are given in too many cases a free pass for bad judgement and murder / manslaughter. Their actions just tend to be more local than the thugs in Congress, K Street Lobbyist, public employee union bosses, Wall Street banksters, and crony capitalist. Likewise the arrogant disregard of police of citizens rights and their paranoid “us against civilians” training only further isolates them from fellow citizens. It makes gunning down a 13 year old with a toy gun a problem that hits closer to home than the daily underhandedness of the slimes in the state capitals and city halls who are their enablers.. Publish it.