On the way in to the hospital, I pass the above sign prominently displayed on the first door. And just in case I didn’t get the message or don’t read English, there’s another sign on the inside doors . . .
…twice, on each side of the entrance. Just to make sure there’s no misunderstanding. Mind you, I’ve passed these signs many times. But today, while waiting for the elevator, I saw this advisory:
I had to chuckle a bit since these signs are such a wonderful microcosm of gun legislation.
-Disarm yourself because guns are deadly.
-Watch your back because people do bad things.
I actually talked to our head security officer at the hospital if he thought I could get my ccw permit because I work the night shift at a hospital. He is an NRA pistol instructor and ccw instructor. His answer was no because the policy of the hospital was not to allow guns on the grounds. I asked him what happens if there’s a mass shooting, he winked and said pray the police get here.
The old cliché’ covers this circumstance:
“When seconds count, the police are only minutes away”
” I had to chuckle a bit since these signs are such a wonderful microcosm of gun legislation.
-Disarm yourself because guns are deadly.
-Watch your back because people do bad things.”
There should be a third line:
– Call the police and cooperate with the bad people as they do bad stuff to you (and/or your family) while you wait for assistance.
This is what really makes me mad about the gun control crowd. They constantly chant the first two lines but conveniently leave off the third. It’s like that joke: “I don’t mind falling, it’s hitting the ground I’m worried about.” Cooperating with bad guys is what we’re left with once we agree to disarm ourselves and that means allowing them to do WHATEVER THEY WANT to us, our wives and our sons and daughters.
My question to MikeB and others is this: why should I agree to do this?
My question to you is this: “Why feed the trolls”?
My question to you is this: “Why not?”
I doubt he would get any nourishment out of this and he seems to have come to the same conclusion. In other words, I don’t think answering a question like this one would benefit his cause so he simply ignores it.
This is a wonderful post which is a perfect microcosm of the debate.
I’m gratified that even in Arizona they agree that guns do more harm than good, or at least in limited situations they do. Obvioulsy they feel, like I do, that if allowed, the folks carrying guns in the hospital would cause more problems than they would solve.
They feel the same way about prisons, too.
WHY is carrying in a hospital ANY different from carrying in a restaurant, or movie theater, or anyplace else for that matter? There are plenty of hospitals that do NOT post that are in states where legal carry by law-abiding citizens in those hospitals is not prohibited by law.
If what you are saying was true, there would be numerous shootings in those hospitals by those law-abiding citizens, but that just isn’t the case.
Just more typical, emotional hand-wringing by someone who doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
Where? Throughout the whole country? In that building alone? Bullshit / made-up statistic for a bullshit / made-up poster. It depends on your line of work. There are probably at least 1,000 cops assaulted at work every single day.
Research shows that 73% of all people who use the term “research shows” are just making shit up.
87% of people know that
The trouble with quotes on the Internet is that you can never know if they are genuine. — Abraham Lincoln
Over 1000 people are assaulted per year. Protect yourself.
With what?
It is a “gun free zone”.
Can I have a Tazer? Club? Sword?
At my work we are not allowed to have “anything that could be used as a weapon”.
Yet they hang decorative swords on the wall (the company has a fascination with the Three Musketeers).
Were I to decide to cause mayhem and destruction, I’d probably pick a “gun free zone” where I knew that no one would have a gun except me.I most likely would avoid being such a nuisance at a gun range.
Gun free zones are the imginary havens of liberals and others with a complete lack of common sense.
You sure got that right!
ARS 13-3102 does not prohibit guns in a hospital unless it is publicly owned and operated by the state or a political subdivision of the state. They would have to provide gun lockers if that was the case. The crime you would be committing by entering a privately owned business that is posted in this fashion is a trespass if you were carrying a weapon and failed to leave after being asked.
this is from the arizona CCW website:
“I entered a private business with my concealed handgun and CCW permit. The business did not have any signs posted prohibiting weapons. Shortly thereafter, an employee approached me and said they do not allow firearms in their business and I must take the gun off the premises. Can they do that?”
Yes. Arizona law permits private business owners (or their designates) to prohibit weapons from being brought onto their property, whether signs are posted or not. Private businesses are typically non-government operated businesses such as grocery and department stores, convenience stores, laundromats, banks, office complexes, etc. Failure to obey the request can result in your arrest for trespassing. (ARS 13-1502 / ARS 13-1503)
I know it’s probably just an example the State uses for Q&A, but if you get made carrying concealed, you broke the first rule (concealed means *concealed*) and deserve to get tossed out.
I agree that private property owners have sole authority over their property and can certainly decide who their customers are. Sort of the “we reserve the right to refuse service” idea. However, the law prohibits property owners from customer discrimination on the basis of race/creed/religion, etc. If gun ownership is now a SCOTUS-recognized individual civil right, what is the difference in discriminating against a gun owner and discriminating against a black person (besides the obvious MSM firestorm surrounding the latter)?
Freedom of Speech is also a constitutional right, but if you want to sing “You Make Me Feel (Like a Natural Woman)” at the top of your lungs in the local Walgreens, you’re going to be tossed.
Discriminating against people because of color, religion, gender or age is illegal because the law says so. Stop throwing up goofy red herrings.
Let me clarify. I think responsibly execising your right to be armed should be just as protected from discrimination as the protections against discrimination based on race/creed/color. Discriminating against gun owners is just as egregious as discriminating against blacks.
By the way, your analogy of abusing your right to free speech by loudly singing and disturbing those around you is more like if someone was shooting their gun off into the air. It’s not really the same as peaceably going about your business while armed.
Let me clarify. I think the responsible exercise of our gun rights should be just as protected from discrimination as the protections against discrimination based on race/creed/religion. Discriminating against gun owners is just as egregious as discrimination against blacks.
Your statement about abusing you right to free speech by loudly singing and disturbing others around you is more analogous to shooting your gun off into the air in a store. That’s obviously quite different than peaceably going about your business while armed.
“I agree that private property owners have sole authority over their property and can certainly decide who their customers are.”
Yes and no.
My position is that there are three basic kinds of property: public, private, and private providing public accomidations.
The first has no constitutional right to prohibit arms, the second has every right, the third is somewhere in between.
I hold that, because they can prohibit political speech, but not speech entirely, that they can prohibit OC but not CC, as the former is a form of political speech.
Where I draw the line between the two types of private property is the invitation of the general public–if you own a home, and only allow specific people into it (family, friends, ETC.) then you can ban arms; however, if you hold an open house, then you cannot do so, at least until the open house has ended.
In short, business invitees cannot be deprived of basic rights; reasonable restrictions are acceptable, but an outright ban is as unreasonable as handing out ball gags at the door to prevent political speech.
“reasonable restrictions are acceptable”
In my shop, I decide what is acceptable.
I got to thinking that the sign at this hospital says no “deadly weapons” allowed. That is VERY vague, does it include pocket knives like my Swiss Army knife? Does it include metal barrelled ball point pens? Nail clippers? Everything on the TSA “bad item” list? The belt that holds up my pants? (could be used to strangle someone) Shoelaces? I have a problem with the whole concept of weapon free zones, but especially when such zones have no clear definition of what complies with the rule. Typically that means the local LEO or worse, the $9/hr security guard is making decisions as to what complies and what doesn’t.
Depending on the state, there may be a legal definition of “deadly weapon”. I know there is one in Washington law because I was checking the RCW the other day and saw it.
“Shoelaces?”
But why would you need to bring a machinegun to a hospital?
Over 1000 people are assaulted at work each year. That is 1000 defensive gun uses avoided and thus lives saved.
I looked up the statute for kicks. My comments below:
13-3102. Misconduct involving weapons; defenses; classification; definitions
A. A person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly:
1. Carrying a deadly weapon except a pocket knife concealed on his person or within his immediate control in or on a means of transportation:
(a) In the furtherance of a serious offense as defined in section 13-706, a violent crime as defined in section 13-901.03 or any other felony offense; or
(b) When contacted by a law enforcement officer and failing to accurately answer the officer if the officer asks whether the person is carrying a concealed deadly weapon; or
2. Carrying a deadly weapon except a pocket knife concealed on his person or concealed within his immediate control in or on a means of transportation if the person is under twenty-one years of age; or
3. Manufacturing, possessing, transporting, selling or transferring a prohibited weapon, except that if the violation involves dry ice, a person commits misconduct involving weapons by knowingly possessing the dry ice with the intent to cause injury to or death of another person or to cause damage to the property of another person; or
4. Possessing a deadly weapon or prohibited weapon if such person is a prohibited possessor; or
5. Selling or transferring a deadly weapon to a prohibited possessor; or
6. Defacing a deadly weapon; or
7. Possessing a defaced deadly weapon knowing the deadly weapon was defaced; or
8. Using or possessing a deadly weapon during the commission of any felony offense included in chapter 34 of this title; or
9. Discharging a firearm at an occupied structure in order to assist, promote or further the interests of a criminal street gang, a criminal syndicate or a racketeering enterprise; or
10. Unless specifically authorized by law, entering any public establishment or attending any public event and carrying a deadly weapon on his person after a reasonable request by the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event or the sponsor’s agent to remove his weapon and place it in the custody of the operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event for temporary and secure storage of the weapon pursuant to section 13-3102.01; or
11. Unless specifically authorized by law, entering an election polling place on the day of any election carrying a deadly weapon; or
12. Possessing a deadly weapon on school grounds; or
13. Unless specifically authorized by law, entering a nuclear or hydroelectric generating station carrying a deadly weapon on his person or within the immediate control of any person; or
14. Supplying, selling or giving possession or control of a firearm to another person if the person knows or has reason to know that the other person would use the firearm in the commission of any felony; or
15. Using, possessing or exercising control over a deadly weapon in furtherance of any act of terrorism as defined in section 13-2301 or possessing or exercising control over a deadly weapon knowing or having reason to know that it will be used to facilitate any act of terrorism as defined in section 13-2301.
B. Subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section shall not apply to:
1. A person in his dwelling, on his business premises or on real property owned or leased by that person or that person’s parent, grandparent or legal guardian.
2. A member of the sheriff’s volunteer posse or reserve organization who has received and passed firearms training that is approved by the Arizona peace officer standards and training board and who is authorized by the sheriff to carry a concealed weapon pursuant to section 11-441.
3. A firearm that is carried in:
(a) A manner where any portion of the firearm or holster in which the firearm is carried is visible.
(b) A holster that is wholly or partially visible.
(c) A scabbard or case designed for carrying weapons that is wholly or partially visible.
(d) Luggage.
(e) A case, holster, scabbard, pack or luggage that is carried within a means of transportation or within a storage compartment, map pocket, trunk or glove compartment of a means of transportation.
C. Subsection A, paragraphs 2, 3, 7, 10, 11, 12 and 13 of this section shall not apply to:
1. A peace officer or any person summoned by any peace officer to assist and while actually assisting in the performance of official duties; or
2. A member of the military forces of the United States or of any state of the United States in the performance of official duties; or
3. A warden, deputy warden, community correctional officer, detention officer, special investigator or correctional officer of the state department of corrections or the department of juvenile corrections; or
4. A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States.
D. Subsection A, paragraphs 3 and 7 of this section shall not apply to:
1. The possessing, transporting, selling or transferring of weapons by a museum as a part of its collection or an educational institution for educational purposes or by an authorized employee of such museum or institution, if:
(a) Such museum or institution is operated by the United States or this state or a political subdivision of this state, or by an organization described in 26 United States Code section 170(c) as a recipient of a charitable contribution; and
(b) Reasonable precautions are taken with respect to theft or misuse of such material.
2. The regular and lawful transporting as merchandise; or
3. Acquisition by a person by operation of law such as by gift, devise or descent or in a fiduciary capacity as a recipient of the property or former property of an insolvent, incapacitated or deceased person.
E. Subsection A, paragraph 3 of this section shall not apply to the merchandise of an authorized manufacturer of or dealer in prohibited weapons, when such material is intended to be manufactured, possessed, transported, sold or transferred solely for or to a dealer, a regularly constituted or appointed state, county or municipal police department or police officer, a detention facility, the military service of this or another state or the United States, a museum or educational institution or a person specifically licensed or permitted pursuant to federal or state law.
F. Subsection A, paragraph 10 of this section shall not apply to shooting ranges or shooting events, hunting areas or similar locations or activities.
G. Subsection A, paragraph 3 of this section shall not apply to a weapon described in section 13-3101, subsection A, paragraph 8, subdivision (a), item (v), if such weapon is possessed for the purposes of preparing for, conducting or participating in lawful exhibitions, demonstrations, contests or athletic events involving the use of such weapon. Subsection A, paragraph 12 of this section shall not apply to a weapon if such weapon is possessed for the purposes of preparing for, conducting or participating in hunter or firearm safety courses.
H. Subsection A, paragraph 12 of this section shall not apply to the possession of a:
1. Firearm that is not loaded and that is carried within a means of transportation under the control of an adult provided that if the adult leaves the means of transportation the firearm shall not be visible from the outside of the means of transportation and the means of transportation shall be locked.
2. Firearm for use on the school grounds in a program approved by a school.
3. Firearm by a person who possesses a certificate of firearms proficiency pursuant to section 13-3112, subsection T and who is authorized to carry a concealed firearm pursuant to the law enforcement officers safety act of 2004 (P.L. 108-277; 118 Stat. 865; 18 United States Code sections 926B and 926C).
I. Subsection A, paragraphs 2, 3, 7 and 13 of this section shall not apply to commercial nuclear generating station armed nuclear security guards during the performance of official duties or during any security training exercises sponsored by the commercial nuclear generating station or local, state or federal authorities.
J. The operator of the establishment or the sponsor of the event or the employee of the operator or sponsor or the agent of the sponsor, including a public entity or public employee, is not liable for acts or omissions pursuant to subsection A, paragraph 10 of this section unless the operator, sponsor, employee or agent intended to cause injury or was grossly negligent.
K. If a law enforcement officer contacts a person who is in possession of a firearm, the law enforcement officer may take temporary custody of the firearm for the duration of that contact.
L. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 15 of this section is a class 2 felony. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 9 or 14 of this section is a class 3 felony. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 3, 4, 8 or 13 of this section is a class 4 felony. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 12 of this section is a class 1 misdemeanor unless the violation occurs in connection with conduct that violates section 13-2308, subsection A, paragraph 5, section 13-2312, subsection C, section 13-3409 or section 13-3411, in which case the offense is a class 6 felony. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 1, subdivision (a) of this section or subsection A, paragraph 5, 6 or 7 of this section is a class 6 felony. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 1, subdivision (b) of this section or subsection A, paragraph 10 or 11 of this section is a class 1 misdemeanor. Misconduct involving weapons under subsection A, paragraph 2 of this section is a class 3 misdemeanor.
M. For the purposes of this section:
1. “Contacted by a law enforcement officer” means a lawful traffic or criminal investigation, arrest or detention or an investigatory stop by a law enforcement officer that is based on reasonable suspicion that an offense has been or is about to be committed.
2. “Public establishment” means a structure, vehicle or craft that is owned, leased or operated by this state or a political subdivision of this state.
3. “Public event” means a specifically named or sponsored event of limited duration that is either conducted by a public entity or conducted by a private entity with a permit or license granted by a public entity. Public event does not include an unsponsored gathering of people in a public place.
4. “School” means a public or nonpublic kindergarten program, common school or high school.
5. “School grounds” means in, or on the grounds of, a school.
The organization is a bit difficult for my non-legal mind, but after pondering it for a while here is what I came up with:
1. Hospital carry is not specifically banned by the state. The hospital appears to be using the signs in accordance with section A:10. It seems from further research that AZ law does consider a sign a “reasonable request” if it meets certain criteria, which this sign does.
2. Penalty for violation is a Class 1 (worst class) misdemeanor.
3. I am confused by section C:4. According to this section, article 10 shall not apply for “4. A person specifically licensed, authorized or permitted pursuant to a statute of this state or of the United States.”
The question is: is a CCW holder one of these special individuals? My CCW class, and everything I read on the net would suggest no, but I also understand it has not been tested in court.
AZ law does NOT ban firearms in hospitals.
Actually reading AZ 13-3102 would make that apparent.
If you already know one of them well, your best bet is
to stick with that system in the future, too.