Many people who carry a gun on a daily basis aren’t comfortable doing so with a round in the chamber, even if their gun is equipped with a safety. They prefer to carry in what’s commonly known as condition 3 (or “Israeli carry”) with an empty chamber.
That, of course, requires the person carrying the gun to draw, then rack the slide in order to be ready to fire if necessary…which can be difficult depending on the situation. If your off hand is otherwise occupied or there simply isn’t enough time, you could find yourself holding a heavy paperweight rather than a ready firearm.
Longtime reader Matt in FL sent the following:
There’s no visible blood in the linked video, but a guy does get straight up dead. However it’s a strong lesson. The lesson is that a gun carried Israeli condition 3 is basically pointless. Red shirt guy is dead because of condition 3. He probably shouldn’t have drawn to begin with, but that’s another argument.
Click here to view the video [again, video is graphic, though no blood is seen so consider this NSFW].
The run-down: Red shirt guy tries to draw on ball cap guy sitting at the bar. It appears he tries to rack the slide, but before he can complete the action, ball cap guy disarms him and shoots him with his own gun. I’m not 100% certain it was condition 3, but ball cap guy took it from his left hand, and racking the slide is the only reason that I can see that he would have his left hand on the gun after drawing with his right.
After watching the video a number of times, it does appear that “red shirt guy” was trying to rack the pistol when he was disarmed. We’ll let you take it from here in the comments.
Don’t start nothin, won’t BE nothin.
Bingo.
Where does this take place ?
From the looks of it: Brazil.
You don’t want to hesitate when some thug pulls a gun on you in Brazil. You have to kill him because they are likely to kill you regardless of your submission. Over 61,000 homicides in a year.
I didn’t believe it, but your right. Wouldn’t want to live with that.
Does it matter? The invasion of America means this is the future no matter where you are.
Another “Brazilian Justice” video?
Personally, I don’t carry that way. If I am disarmed, the victor will be able to shoot me right away. I couldn’t tell either, although the ball cap guy does appear to rack the slide. Looked “professional”.
You get a lot of practice in Brazil or you’re dead.
One of the few actual disarms that have worked in the real world. Grab gun, trip attacker, strip gun, rack and send him home.
Shit, he was definitely not an amateur… Not even the slightest bit ‘off’ after removing the guy’s face from his body. Pretty scary how cold that dude was..
Survival of the fittest is necessary in Brazil. Doesn’t matter how much gun safety laws they have.
Maybe he was just racking “just in case” – I mean, he just took the gun away from a stranger, so he can’t KNOW what condition it’s in.
That’s standard procedure in a disarm.
Yes it is too slow. Everyone new to carrying gets nervous about carrying with a round in the chamber. It’s just part of carrying you need to learn to get over. Get a good holster that covers the entire trigger. If it bothers you that much, start off with carrying a gun with a traditional safety or carry a revolver for awhile. Thats what I did. After carrying a revolver for awhile I became much more confident and comfortable carrying pretty much any king of gun in general. There, another good use for revolvers.
Not bad advice on revolvers. I carry a DA/SA with a 13lb double action pull. Needless to say, I have nothing to worry about.
13 lbs, your trigger finger must be like double the size of the rest of your fingers!
Hardly an indictment of condition 3 carry, but rather a lesson on drawing and retention in a crowd and violence and force of action.
When someone who thinks they are a killer, meets an actual killer the result are predictable.
Yup. Ball Cap Guy was way too calm to be an amateur.
If you carry the ole Glock 40 problem solver without a holster, you probably should carry without a round in the chamber. Then again, if you do that, you probably shouldn’t carry at all, because you might just be the sort of idiot who lights people up over stupid arguments.
Only for licensed and trained:
Was using one of those Techni clips to attach to his belt, no trigger cover.
Thats not a ND. Thats a DA!
just sayin
I love how they bring up that he had a “few sips” of alcohol before this happened.
The problem is that clip device, not the drink. What happened to that cop could have happened, and in fact in the exact same circumstances WOULD have happened whether he was stone cold sober, drunk off his ass or “had a few sips”.
I don’t question the officer drinking when he’s not on duty. I question his judgement for using the “techniclip” in the first place.
“…a round fired…” Can’t _any_ “news” report about Gene Gene the Dancing Machine just say _he_ fired the pistol or caused the pistol to fire. This granting of sentience to firearms is ridiculous.
Has to be Brazil! 3rd world peasents with barely a 3rd grade education and the 3rd Slum Thug mentality to boot….Thank God THERE are troops at our borders! This kind of “Riff-Raff” was incoming on that caravan…Here are your criminal illegal aliens….
Better than Trump and Republicans on guns?
Praise the Second Amendment and Praise President Trump MAGA
I’m glad you’ll die of old age long before me. Praise lol…
Always one in the chamber, always.
Though I believe it’s possible to draw and rack simultaneously with little to no real difference in time, that only works if you have TWO free hands. There are WAAAAY to many scenarios where an aggressor will not leave you with a free hand to rack a slide.
If you don’t like the round in the chamber carry a 1911 with a grip safety. Or a hammer fired pistol with a decocker.
If you are going to carry condition 3 you better practice the draw everyday.
Brazil is a death trap. They basically wear flip flops and kill eachother all day long. Doesn’t matter if you comply or not. Down there it’s kill or be killed…..
Condition 3 is extremely foolish.
-You may not have time to chamber a round, seconds count in a gun fight
– You may short stroke the slide under stress
– You support hand may not be available. It may be injured, striking, holding back family, etc.
If you are not comfortable enough with your gun and or your skills to carry it loaded, you should not be carrying.
I wish that video had good audio, and that I spoke Portuguese. There’s like a whole soap opera of stuff going on there.
“Hey baby, let’s go down to the local c-store and make out”.
“OK”
The only thing I got from this video, as a non-firearm owner…Is, Dear Mr. President Trump, “*chanting*, Build the Wall ! Build the Wall! Build the Wall!”
IMHO, Israeli carry is silly. It was developed originally for a police force that had a wide array of weapons being purchased directly by officers themselves combined with officers that were poorly trained and having numerous accidents. As such it’s not a “personal” carry method but rather a way to standardize training in a shitty situation.
My impression was that it was more for soldiers who are on leave, but are carrying their weapons (often slung rifles). They don’t plan to respond to a mugging while shopping or eating at a restaurant, but their guns are handy enough to respond to a nearby terrorist attack.
Carrying on an empty chamber was developed by W.E. Fairbairn (of the famed Fairbairn-Sykes knife) as a solution to cops negligently discharging their weapons in… either Shanghai or Hong Kong back in the early 1900’s. I don’t remember which city it was right off the top of my head.
Basically, cops shot a lot of people by accident and since there was no standard duty weapon the idea was that if everyone carried on an empty chamber there was no need to take the time to train each officer in the exact methods for his particular pistol.
There was an article last year, right here on TTAG, that talked about this and the man himself discussed it in one of his books which, IIRC was titled Shooting to Live. .
Here’s that article:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2017/04/ron-grobman/truth-israeli-carry/
Thanks Dan. I was too lazy to look up the link for that article.
It’s actually the way that teachers should carry. If teachers in America are going to carry in school, they need to carry without one in the chamber.
I would tend to disagree with you on this CZ.
IMHO, if one cannot be trusted well enough to carry and retain a chambered weapon then one cannot be trusted to have the weapon in the first place.
Also, I fail to see a circumstance where it would significantly enhance safety in any way. I can only see situations where it would decrease safety to the carrier and to the school overall.
They will have to carry like that because it will stop any possibility that the gun goes off in school. Whether the gun falls or is mishandled. This removes any argument the anti self defense people come up with to stop teachers from carrying at school.
Concealed, condition 3, hollow points, lanyard and flashlight.
The gun won’t be seen by students, it won’t be locked away when needed and it can’t be stolen. There won’t be any negligent discharges harming anyone. The bullets are less likely to penetrate through objects and the shooter causing unintended casualties. The gun won’t be forgotten in the bathroom or classroom. When the lights are off during a shooting the teacher will have the ability to identify the shooter.
What are the anti gunners going to argue after that? Training? Cost? At that point they have lost the argument whether we should have school faculty carrying or not.
So what you’re saying isn’t that this is the way they “should” carry but rather it’s the way they’ll have to carry in order to head off anti arguments at the pass?
Because a decent retention holster and not hiring sub-human morons is a bridge too far? Therefore we have to treat full grown teachers like toddlers who can’t be trusted with simple tools because feelz?
Don’t get me wrong here, I understand your point. I simply don’t like the concept of unnecessarily kowtowing to blatant stupidity.
That’s stupid logic or lack of logic. To arm a teacher in a school setting where he or she is walking around cocked and locked is asinine. That teacher isn’t in an offensive position the teacher is for defensive purposes. The kids in the classroom aren’t the problem 99.99999% of the time. The vast majority of the time a school shooter is someone you’re going to have plenty of time to react to. Plenty of time to chamber a round in a semi-auto or cock the hammer of a revolver. Teachers are not trained to be walking around in condition 1, nor are most of the imbeciles legally carrying concealed. Hope you have insurance Pal, because you’re a lawsuit looking for a place to.happen.
Wow Bruce. Real thought provoking there with the insults.
First, I’m in no way suggesting that someone, in any setting, must carry a certain way. I just think Israeli carry is foolish in general. It puts another step between the defender and getting the gun into action and creates another set of potential problems to deal with before the gun can be fired. Most malfunctions with a semiauto weapon occur as a result of the user improperly chambering a round. This is true of rifles and of pistols. As such it is, in my mind, about the same as putting a semi-complicated safety on a fire extinguisher.
Second, as I said, if someone can’t be trusted to carry with one in the pipe they can’t be trusted to carry. That doesn’t apply to personal feelings about their own firearm. If someone WANTS to carry without one in the chamber then that’s up to them. However, if the person is such a klutz, or shows disregard for other safety practices or whatever to the point that other people honestly don’t trust them to have one in the gun then, like Barney Fife, they shouldn’t be armed (Barney had a gun and a bullet in his pocket but let’s be honest, he shouldn’t have been armed).
The question I ask is how exactly is a gun, in a holster, secured to your person significantly more unsafe with a chambered round? It’s not and any argument that it truly is significantly less safe is bullshit. For the gun to become a problem the owner has to fuck up and leave it somewhere or otherwise do something stupid and lose control of the gun. The kids can’t use telekinesis to make the gun fire. And, if done right, the kids don’t even know which teachers and staff have guns or if any of them have guns.
Third, cock and locked? Did I miss the memo where teachers would be required to carry a 1911? And even if we are stipulating that teachers may only carry a JMB special, whatever happened to Condition 2?
The kids not being a problem “99.99999%” of the time is a strawman argument. People in general are not a problem 99%+ of the time. Further, “the vast majority of the time” isn’t what we worry about because “the vast majority of the time” there is no shooter to defend against. The problem is the outliers and stacking tolerances for failure. If an armed teacher gets killed at the beginning of a mass shooting because they didn’t have one in the pipe, or couldn’t get the safety off fast enough or whatever the case may be then the antis are going to use that as an argument that armed and trained teachers and staff doesn’t work. They’ll only need one data point and they’ll have it.
Further still, my carry condition, level of experience and training are 1) unknown to you and 2) not a valid comparison to the concept of armed teachers. Most proposals for armed teachers revolve around taking teachers who volunteer for extra duty and then training them before allowing them to carry on campus. As such the concept that they’re “not trained…” is a red herring.
Finally, I would however point out that your use of cocking the hammer on a revolver and racking the slide on a semiautomatic as equivalent actions shows that it’s probably you who needs some brushing up your firearms skills and knowledge.
teachers should, at minimum, carry however their students do.
Wow! Ball cap boy started a mag dump there! Holy shite!
As the Americans would say, “shoot to kill.”
Gotta let more of these doctors and lawyers into the US.
Ironic that the news will flip their shit when our average life expectancy drops from 79.7 to 79.6 yet they’ll actively campaign for letting people from nations with life expectancies around 50 flood into our nation. We totally need more hyper violent death cult worshipping psychopaths on our streets. Its so multicultural. Now that 1st world men have been effectively effeminized they won’t stand a chance against high test caricatures of masculinity raping and beating and killing their way through to Canada. Time to hand out “don’t rape me” bracelets yet?
Sometimes you CAN’T rack the slide.
Like when two thugs are trying to drag you out of your car and you’re drawing with your right while holding yourself in the car with your left…
http://ohioccwforums.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=53502
Do some one handed drills, they are necessary. You got to figure out how to use your gun with one hand.
with how close he was to the shooter I doubt that would have been successful even it he had one in the chamber. He should’ve just left rather than pulling a gun out, but as there is no sound or context other than what we see all of us are reduced to armchair quarterbacking this one.
+1 on that. Zero context. I feel bad for the lady who’s obviously traumatized by the event.
If there was a round in the chamber, he could have used his left hand to fend the other guy off. Another reason to not rely on both hands: you may need the other hand to defend yourself against a punch or blade.
Regardless, it’s bad actions all around. Ball cap doesn’t appear to be a threat when red shirt pulls the gun. There are plenty of innocent people in the line of fire too. Ball cap properly acts in self defense up to the point that he starts pulling the trigger. Had he held red shirt at gunpoint for the police, it woud have been fine. Instead, he executes an unarmed man on the ground who isn’t a threat to anyone. Maybe it’s legal there. Hasn’t insulting someone’s manhood successfully been used as defense for killing wives/girlfriends?
Or get a DA/SA and safely keep one in the pipe.
when I carry my Px4 or 96A1 that is exactly what I do. Insert loaded magazine, rack slide, toggle the decocker to safe dropping the hammer harmlessly, and then take off safety. First shot is DA right off the go or SA if I have time to pull back the hammer.
Awfully crowded place. Too slow a presentation, I think pulling the gun and pistol-slapping Mr.. Ballcap upside the head makes more sense. Or, if you are expecting trouble (which seems likely based purely on what my eyes see, body language etc) be locked and clocked and ready to go from “go”. Pull, stuff into and belly shoot, just like Jack Ruby.
That’s my hindsight 20/20 Monday PM quarterbacking, back seat driver commentary, add 10 cents and you’ll have… ten cents.
You should always beware introducing a firearm into any situation. Using a run like a club is also a bad idea it’s not too hard to use it against you.
Israeli carry is ok if you are Mossad or a SOF operator. You and me, not so much.
And I’ll add this:
http://blog.beretta.com/israeli-carrys-fatal-flaw-a-case-study
I practice drawing from concealed and slingshot as I bring the gun up to the target. It’s not really slower than the typical draw and fully present. Downsides: can’t shoot as soon as you cleared holster, takes more time to get both hands on the gun.
I also practice drawing and chambering off my holster.
Nothing good ever happens at 3:19 in the morning.
Stay away from stupid people doing stupid things in stupid places at stupid times.
It’s Brazil. You can’t stay away from stupid. Stupid finds you.
definition of a shithole.
Situational awareness. Know where the hell you’re going before you get there. Usually that knowledge alone will be enough and keep you safe.
Speaking of stupid finding you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tctvhm58LEk
Brasil is not playing those leftist games anymore. Time to clean the trash off the streets. Gun control increased the homicide rate to over 64,000 a year. The new government claims they will bring some kind of American 2A to the people so they can defend themselves instead of being murdered just for living their lives.
I dont understand how there wasnt any blood in the video. Did he shoot the ground behind the guy at the end?
He was mag-dumping into the guy’s head, and the drawer blocked the view.
I assure you, they needed a bucket and a mop to clean up that mess.
Things don’t always work out the way you expect.
Exhibit A.
Hard to judge drawing or not without knowing the context or what is being said. Condition 3 is a bad idea
Animals!!
David, that’s what I thought too. Nothing to be proud of here. Man 1 draws angrily from an argument. We didn’t see any threat. Beyond the Israeli carry option, the real lesson here is to not be the kind of man who pulls a gun cause he’s ticked off or had his machismo slighted.
I think these wolves can continue to eat their own.
Yea, and that’s what’s coming to America to a bar near you. Places in LA and other places in the Southwest are already like that.
Carrying an autoloader without a round in the chamber is both stupid and dangerous. The sane among us don’t display a pistol unless they’ve already decided to use it (either immediately, or if their adversary fails to follow their commands to leave, disarm, etc.). Having to rack the slide to load a pistol means having both hands free and uninjured, and the time to do it, none of which can be counted on in an unknown situation — and brandishing a pistol is a threat to those around you, and an invitation for anyone else who is armed (and has no idea of who you are, or what you intend) to shoot you first. If you have to shoot, you need to shoot, not fumble and maybe be shot.
If you don’t trust in the safety mechanism of a cocked, loaded pistol, carry a double action pistol with the hammer down, or a revolver, but an unloaded gun should be left at home — it’s more dangerous to you than a loaded one.To be of practical use, a defensive pistol has to be able to be put into action with one hand, and with no more manipulation than pushing a safety off.
This is a bizarre scene. After the shooting, the guy on the end shrugs his shoulders and sits down to finish his drink.
All comments about Israeli carry are interesting. My opine is too much hollywierdland. How many times do you see McGruff rack his piece while pointing in the air in a dramatic fashion? Bad guy sneeks up then racks? SMG same same. Lever? yep. Flintlock, not sure.
Third generation Smith and Wesson with manual safety always on
Easy to thumb the safety off while drawing one handed. If weapon retention becomes an issue, push the magazine release to disable gun.
My main pistol for EDC is a tt33 they have no Saftey other then half cock , I know it’s not as fast to get on target and shoot as say the 1911cocked and locked I also use. I carry it chambered on half cock hoping my situational awareness will give me time to thumb the hammer back. That Israeli carry, uh nope.
I won’t judge folks who carry Condition 3. I only know that I’m not quick enough myself to make it work.
Thank you! The first non-judgmental comment on this post.
For everyone arguing against Israeli carry, and insulting people who do it, your opinion is worth as much as anyone has paid for it.
For anyone deciding for themselves, just as you choose the caliber to shoot that works for you (power vs capacity vs control vs cost to practice) you should choose the carry method that works for you and your comfort level. Anyone saying “this is the only way to do it” is actually saying “this works for me”.
1.5 million DGU, most of which no shooting happens, statistically having a gun on you is more important than firing it, if carrying that gun unchambered means you WILL carry it, then that is a good thing.
That’s my opinion, and as I said for others above, it’s worth as much as you paid me for it.
Here’s the problem: you don’t know a priori that you won’t have to pull the trigger.
See the final chapter of Nassim Taleb’s “Skin in the Game” for a full explanation.
Let me clarify… there a handful of posts above that basically boil down to “this is the only way to carry, if you don’t feel comfortable enough to do so, you shouldn’t be carrying at all”.
My response is no, if you don’t feel comfortable enough to do so, carry the way you do feel comfortable and train for it, something is literally better than nothing for 99% of the situations you may end up in.
From the standpoint of individual rights sure carry the way you want to carry. However, some of us feel obligated to advise against carry in condition 3 because there is a good chance you will end up dead and your defensive firearm turned into some thugs offensive weapon. My advice is don’t carry until you feel comfortable enough to carry with a round in the chamber.
And an realistic looking airsoft pistol also works in 99% of the time too and it has the advantage of being able to take someone’s eye out. As Mr. Callahan says “do you feel lucky?”
Are we sure this is a legit video? That many shots and no blood anywhere? Flashes from gunshots looked more like cgi effects than actual burning propellant. And, no smoke at all? Asking for a friend. 😉
The first and greatest mistake the red shirt guy made was being so close to the other guy in the first place. I can’t see any justification of constantly having your weapon cocked and locked. Red shirt could have backed off at least 6-7 feet at any time during this confrontation but to his mistake he chose to draw and try to chamber a bullet well within arms length. Obviously his adversary was much more prepared to defend himself in a close range situation. Untill the other guy shot red shirt multiple times any sane person would have to judge this a legal self defense. He defended his own life wirh red shirts gun. But after multiple shots into red shirt while he was obviously incapacitated on the ground, this turned into an easy 2nd degree murder conviction. Based on what I saw that is, for all I know red shirt was a bully who instigated the whole situation to begin with.
I am not an advocate of condition 1 carry. I prefer chambering a round and carrying a DA/SA pistol or when carrying SAO rarely if ever do I carry cocked and locked, prefering to lower the hammer either manually or with a decocker. Nothing would have helped red shirt in this scenario though, he stupidly got in too close with a superior street fighter and died because of it.
Video is hilarious. #1 carrying chamber empty is amateur hour bullshit. I don’t care if the Israelis do it. It’s an inferior method. Period. #2 red shirt was a poser. He pulled out his unloaded gun to try to intimidate and it literally backfired on him. Pun intended. #3 red shirt had zero fighting skills. If he even knew how to move he would’ve had a much better chance. More proof that a firearm isn’t the magic talisman that takes care of all evil. Get your gelatinous ass off the couch and train.
Yeah….all I can say is J-frame loaded + 148 grain wadcutters. But I enjoy shooting Glocks and CZ’s and Walthers at the range.
An added bonus is that the short barrel on a J-frame makes it nearly impossible for a guy to disarm you this way.
PS Who the Hell draws on an unarmed guy in a crowd?
He’s at contact distance, surrounded by other people at contact distance, and decides to draw.
He was not responding to a threat. He WAS the threat.
Stupid.
Here is your Darwin award.
I carry only to get myself outside and on my way home. That said, this is stupid. Gangsters love to rack their guns for some reason. The mistake the dead dude made here was bringing out a gun. If he had left the gun at home he wouldn’t be dead.
I understand where Bruce is going with his sentiments that armed teachers should not carry with a round chambered, but I don’t agree. Following his logic that teachers are not in an offensive posture and are in a defensive posture, is true, but it also applies to every single civilian with a CCW. We all carry for defensive purposes and I carry with a round chambered. According to what Bruce’s stance is, everyone with a CCW should carry in condition 3.
i carry with an empty chamber not because im an idiot or a dumbass or im scared or dont trust myself or any of other reasons some of you know it alls are spouting off about
i do what i do because in my state when im on my kids schools properties dropping them off and picking them up sometimes multiple times in a day im required to unload and case the firearm
im not going to be chambering and unchambering a round in the car while im driving and there are kids in the car multiple times in a day
i compensate for condition 3 with situational awareness
and i leave the rest up to God
one day when im not going on school grounds multiple times every day ill change my carry method
and until that day comes theres absolutely nothing that im doing wrong and the world would perhaps be a little less shittier of a place if we didnt have people like D and strych9 and Bisley making statements like they know everything which they clearly do not
Does it look to anyone else that the little woman at the end picked up her purse or phone and one that must have belonged to the smooching couple?