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I agree, as long as folks are aware of potential problems and can check to see if they are affected. I consider it to be similar to how some folks get “bit” by slides, or chewed-up by the hammer on a Hi-Power; as long as you know there might be a potential problem, you can make a more informed choice.

I have used, and will continue to use, 3rd/4thGen S&W autoloaders, although I stick to the single-column models with the thinner frame, to avoid the problem listed above.

I don’t generally consider the use of any autoloading pistol issued by Law Enforcement in the 1970s-80s as any kind of an endorsement for ergonomics, as back in those days, cops generally didn’t have an option to pick and choose what pistol they got to carry. I also currently don’t endorse ANY DA/SA pistol for serious defensive use, over the fine striker-fired and SA choices we have nowadays. The DA/SA was fine for the revolver-transition era; that era has passed, and there are no longer any good reasons to select one over the other choices.

As Col Cooper said, the purpose of shooting is hitting; and in the real world, hitting is MUCH easier with a Glock/M&P than ANY pistol with a DA/SA action type.

IMO. YMMV, but it shouldn’t vary very much.

What about for a DA/SA that can be cocked-and-locked? Such would be functionally almost identical to a true Single Action, except that it also has second strike capability.

You’ll never get completely around the choice of easy to carry or easy to shoot.

SteveInCo
I also prefer the SA/DA. I have a little Bersa 22, Looked at almost an identical model in 380. It was also SA/DA. If it had been a 9, I would have grabbed it.
I believe some of the striker fired pistols now have second strike capabilities. The Taurus “Slim” comes to mind, however I’m not sure that it is striker fired.

“As Col Cooper said, the purpose of shooting is hitting; and in the real world, hitting is MUCH easier with a Glock/M&P than ANY pistol with a DA/SA action type.” Nope. A CZ75, the pistol that Col. Cooper viewed a the best of the wonder 9s, will shoot circles around most M&Ps and ANY Glock. The Sig P226 ain’t too shabby too.

Jim, a CZ75 probably does shoot well if you start off cocked-and-locked (not an option for most of the other DA/SA guns), but if you shoot it DA-first-shot, SA-subsequent-shots, then it forces the same DA/SA transition that vexes the shooters of all other DA/SA pistols, and you’re right back to square one with poor practical accuracy. And when it comes to carry, the CZ75 weighs more empty than a Glock does fully-loaded, so it’s really apples and oranges.

Yes, I’ve seen more than a few SIGs that will shoot wonderful groups in SA mode; I’ve even trained with a few of them. If you want to limit the choices to the special SA-only SIGs with a cocked-and-locked option, or the old/original Beretta 92 with frame-mounted safety, enabling C&L carry, I can go for that; but DA/SA, with the shooter using it as such? Nope, sorry. I’ll stand by my comments.

Cz-75s generally come in both a cocked-and-locked safety model and aone with a decocker. The decocker is probably the best one you could have (it doesn’t leave the gun in a state where it won’t fire, unlike most (e.g., current model Beretta 92s and this smith and wesson), but it does leave it half cocked so the DA pull isn’t quite as bad as it could be.

That being the case I fail to see the bloody point of a CZ-75 derived pistol (or the P-07 and -09) with a decocker. (The 07 and 09 are the polymer-framed models; the gun ships with the decocker *and* the parts to convert it to the correct safety-cocked-and-locked configuration.) There is a perfectly safe technique for decocking the cocked and locked almost-a-single-action CZ-75B (and others of that line), and no real reason you should want to do it. But you cannot cock-and-lock the decocker models (CZ-75 BD, et. al.)

Steve, can you share that perfectly safe technique? The only thing that comes to mind is the usual “thumb on the hammer, and slooooowly let it down” approach, but I consider that inherently unsafe.

DJ9, I fail to understand how using a DA/SA places the shooter at a disadvantage. If you practice the DA pull and the second shot transition to SA (just like you’d have to practice taking the safety off on a C&L SAO) how is the option somehow automatically inferior to the system of your preference? I’ve tried them all extensively and I can’t see any system as BETTER than another, they’re all different and have their own benefits and drawbacks.

@int19h. I take my right thumb off the left side of the grip (this description is assuming right handedness, flip it if you are a leftie). You can then put it between the hammer and the back of the slide, with the joint closest to the tip on the left side, and the next joint on the right side, Thus you are using the second bone of the thumb to block the hammer rather than trying to hold it back (which as you are aware can slip). Pull the trigger, the hammer will release but it will only travel a tiny bit before being captured by the thumb, since you have it wedged in there fairly tightly. Release the trigger once you feel the hammer release from the sear. You are now in a state where the hammer is mechanically free to continue swinging forward, but you are NOT pulling the trigger, which is what a decocker does. Remove thumb. Hammer will now swing forward, but since the trigger is not depressed, the gun won’t fire. The hammer will stop at the half-cock position, at least it will on a CZ-75; I do not know about other types. I’d experiment with an empty gun, obviously, before trying this with some other hammered gun. And practice it “dry” even with a CZ-75. I hope my verbal explanation is clear, because my photograph-and-put-on-computer skills are weak.

Though I maintain with a cocked-and-locked pistol there’s almost no need to decock it while it’s loaded.

Dan A,

I guess I’d have to ask you to list the actual benefits of the traditional DA/SA action, because I really don’t see any. The longer/heavier trigger pull is usually offered-up as a benefit (usually by administrators/chiefs) as it MAY reduce SOME inadvertent/accidental firings (it certainly can’t/won’t in the cases where the trigger is being pulled on purpose, such as during a startle reflex), but it is a major drawback when it comes to actually using the pistol as a weapon to hit your target. The two different trigger pull weights and distances are the primary cause of misses, with the shooter either jerking/slapping the first shot off-target low and to one side due to the heavy/long pull, OR, touching-off shot number two before they are ready due to the comparative lightness of the SA pull weight and short trigger travel. Yes, in theory this can be minimized by practice, but what I’ve seen in the real world, is the practice doesn’t always “take”, because sometimes you are shooting two shots one DA, one SA, and other times, you may need to shoot two shots that are both SA (later in the incident). Managing the two (or even 3!) different trigger pull weights and lengths under stress, remembering whether or not you decocked part-way through an incident, groping for the trigger which may be way forward or far to the rear in the trigger guard depending on where you are in the DA/SA mode, are all completely unnecessary. Dedicating extra brain cells to monitoring and managing your pistol in a gunfight, rather than using those same thought cycles to solve tactical or strategic problems, can put you at a severe disadvantage. We can only manage so many things at one time, and making your pistol as easy and reflexive to use is one way to minimize distractions and keep your focus on the fight, not on fighting with your pistol.

Modern pistols with no manual safety lever, short-and-firm-but-manageable trigger pull, the same trigger weight and pull length for every shot, a short and distinct reset of the mechanism (even if you don’t consciously use it, it helps prevents you from chasing the trigger all the way to the front of the trigger guard every shot), and no forgetting to decock before holstering after a stressful incident, makes successful and accurate use far more likely under any conditions.

And no, I don’t consider how often people shoot themselves while loading, clearing, practicing, qualifying, or disassembling their pistol as a deciding factor in which pistol to choose. These are things that take place under relatively calm conditions, and therefore are far more likely to be controllable, than how well the person performs under stress and conditions mostly out of their control. If the person has safety/handling problems on the range or during administrative loading/clearing, I start to wonder if they should be carrying a pistol at all.

Finally, I must tell you that I have personally seen more accidental and negligent weapon discharges with so-called “safer” pistols (those with thumb safeties, grip safeties, and long/heavy 1st shot trigger actions) than I have with Glock-ish type pistols. I am of the opinion that these so-called safety features actually make some people more careless in their gunhandling, because they think the mechanism can/will save themselves, from themselves.

You shouldn’t have to fight a pistol’s multiple trigger pull lengths/weights to hit the target just because other people were careless in the past. The only safety that counts is between your ears; guns are only as safe as the person who’s holding it. A well-trained person can shoot anything safely, and an idiot or distracted person is cannot be made less stupid or dangerous by putting a harder-to-shoot pistol in their hands; however, ANY shooter can be made less effective by giving them a pistol that is harder to shoot and manage under stress.

Don’t believe I ever indicated it would/should apply to “everyone else”, so I’m not sure where you got that impression.

But it MIGHT very well apply to some folks with larger hands, long fingers, or a similar shooting technique. It is for those folks that I wrote the post.

This potential problem is also very gun-specific; I’ve never experienced any troubles with SIGs, Berettas, Rugers, or any other DA/SA autopistol, only the double-column-mag S&W models.

This.

In my neck of the woods, CZ 75 prices have soared and finding one for under $600 is difficult. If you find a good internet price, I bet you’re still looking at $500.

There are five or six places online that have the CZ-75 Compact for around $450. With shipping and FFL fees, you might be getting closer to $500, but those charges would also apply to this 5906, so that’s a wash – still only a hundred bucks difference.

“Incidentally, autocorrect doesn’t like “tacticool”.”

You can “train” the TTAG spell-check. Select “Add to Dictionary” in the drop-down.

I just trained it to accept “Tacti-Tard”. Your miles, etc.