By Paul McCain
I was finally able to get my GLOCK 34 with a Trijicon RMR on it out for a full day’s training class and I’d like to share my experiences and impressions of the Trijicon RMR. At the facility where I do my training, they do a lot of work with various military units and they’ve been noticing more and more Tier 1 units using red dots on their handguns.
Clearly, it is no longer a “gear fad,” but something that’s being adopted by many units running their handguns hard in every environmental condition imaginable. I finally took the plunge myself after trying various handguns with red dots from the various instructors and students.
I had been dry firing with it at home a lot, practicing acquiring a target as quickly as possible. The red dot does take some getting used to and I’ve found that, for me, the fastest way to acquire the target it to focus strongly on a consistent presentation, which involves punching the gun out swiftly as on a “rail” fully extended and thinking of the red dot as a “remote” I’m pointing at a receiver on my TV.
During various shows I choose an object that I know will be appearing often and each time it shows up on screen, I work at getting the red dot on it quickly. (Yes, the gun is unloaded, triple safety checked, etc.). I have been doing this for a couple weeks and it really paid off during live fire.
During the class I shot around 500 rounds and I can say that I’ve never had such a high hit percentage before using only iron sights, at any distance. Acquiring the target was a bit more slow if I did not carefully focus on fundamentals to get the right presentation down, but I was delivering rounds on target very accurately while moving and shooting in any direction and of course, from a static position. Particularly longer shots were a breeze.
The key for me is to remember to look at the target and let the red dot settle on it, rather than concentrating on looking at the red dot. After years of repeating to myself, “front sight, front sight” it definitely is going to take a time to readjust my “muscle memory” but the benefits are very obvious to me.
I chose the 6.5 MOA dot and I’m happy with that size. It allows me easily to get rounds on a smaller steel torso target from 75 yards out, all the way in, obviously to very close distances, where, regardless, rapid shooting at a close distance is more about good fundamentals and index shooting without as much attention to sights to begin with. A couple other members of the class were telling me they had had fun a few days previous banging a steel oil drum set out in a field at around 175 yards.
Distant shots with the RMR in place are ridiculously easy and sure to put a big smile on your face as you consistently hear the “ping” of bullets hitting steel at, no doubt, unrealistic distances, but it sure is a fun “bonus” of the red dot. I took 12 shots at a steel torso target at 100 yards and hit it each time with fairly rapid fire. Fun times.
I’m getting my shots pretty much dead-on into targets any size I shoot at and since I’m not planning on using the handgun in any bullseye competitions, I’m not feeling much of a need to zero it. But I may eventually.
The point is that it is pretty impressive how literally out of the box, with it securing mounted on the slide, the red dot’s accuracy is more than enough for me without any zeroing.The sight itself is extremely rugged and I’m glad I went with Trijicon. I had no problems with the glass fogging or blurring at any point.
I’m still getting used to racking the slide using the sight to assist, which is pretty important since racking the slide with an overhand motion as I was used to doing without the RMR on it is now different. I have the sight anchored down firmly on to the milled slide, using Locktite (blue). I purchased a milled slide for my GLOCK 34 from One Source Tactical and I’m very pleased with the quality and service they offered.
We practiced various malfunction drills and I ran them all very well with the RMR in place, such as stovepipe, where you sweep the stovepipe away, or double feeds where you have to drop mag and rack the slide to clear it, etc.
We ran drills at various distances, practicing bounding to cover, etc. and at no time did I feel hampered by or slowed down by the red dot and the accuracy makes every minute of “getting used to it” well worth it.
My vision situation is a bit unique perhaps. I had LASIK surgery about five years ago and consequently my dominant eye, the right eye, is my “distance vision” eye with 20/10 vision in it, my left eye is my close vision eye, and so acquiring the front sight crisply had been a bit of a chore, but with the red dot I’m able to take full advantage of the 20/10 vision in my dominant eye. So, with 50+ year old eyes and LASIK the RMR is just what the doctor ordered.
I’m running the handgun on my battle belt with a custom made Bladetech holster. Blade-Tech does a nice job forming the holster just a tad from their “stock” holsters to allow for a bit more room at the top for the RMR. They also opened the bottom up a bit to allow for my threaded barrel and I had it shaped to accept the G34 with a Surefire flashlight.
I ran the gun with the surefire light on it all day without noticing anything other than a bit less muzzle climb due to the flashlight on the weapon. It felt better in my hand.So, for those considering a RMR for their handgun, I can’t recommend it highly enough, and obviously, I feel I made the right choice going with a Trijicon RMR.
Specifications: Trijicon RMR Sight Adjustable (LED) 6.5 MOA Red Dot
Magnification: 1x
Bullet Drop Compensator: No
Length: 45mm
Weight: 1.2 oz w/battery
Illumination Source: LED
Reticle Pattern: 6.5 MOA Dot (other sizes available)
Day Reticle Color: Red
Night Reticle Color: Red
Bindon Aiming Concept: No
Adjustment @ 100 yards: (clicks/in) 1.0
Housing Material: Forged aluminum
Batteries: CR2032 lithium
Battery Life: Over 4 years of continuous use (when used at 70ºF (21ºC)) at setting 4 of 8. *Extreme temperatures (high or low) will affect lithium battery performance.
MSRP: $708 (retail price about $460)
Ratings (Out of Five Stars):
All ratings are relative compared to the other weapons in the gun’s category.
Accuracy: * * * * *
I was pretty much amazed I hit a small steel torso sized target at 75 yards, fairly rapid fire, offhand, 12 times in a row with no problems. The RMR is always going to be more accurate than the user, in my case.
Ergonomics: * * *
You really don’t even notice it on your handgun after a few uses. It is a great size and I highly recommend getting your slide milled for it rather than simply screwing it on to the top of the slide.
Ergonomics Firing: * * * * *
I notice nothing other than more accuracy!
Reliability: * * * * *
Probably not fair of me at this point to rate its reliability, but from every impression of it so far, they don’t call it a “ruggedized” miniature reflex sight for nothing. The thing is a little brick.
Customization: * * * *
I’m glad I went with the model that allows me to adjust the brightness and/or shut it off when I’m not using it. After putting nearly 500 rounds through it I notice nothing other than it keeps on working. You can adjust the brightness of the dot to accommodate whatever lighting conditions you find yourself in simply by squeezing either the plus or minus sign buttons on either side of the optic.
Overall Rating: * * * * *
I considered other red dots, but after reading a lot of reviews I went with what I believe is simply the best option available at this point. I’m glad I did. It’s not cheap, but it’s extremely well-made and has performed flawlessly for me.
First write up on the subject that didn’t instantly put my feet to sleep. I learned a lot and will add this to my “when I hit the lottery” bucket list. Thanks. Well done.
Street price isn’t too bad on the RMR. It will still set you back for almost the same cost as the Glock it sits on, though. At least when it was stock.
I am faster with iron sights. This suprised me, because with carbines I’m (far and away) faster with an aimpoint than I am with irons. But on pistols, I am quite slow with an RMR. Bums me out.
I would recommend the Dual Illuminated version, though.
Seconded. I have the 12MOA triangle version on my G17 and it is incredible. The only downside to the dual illuminated version is if you are standing in a dark area shooting into bright light, the triangle is hard to find. But I have practiced shooting off the irons in this situation and the precision of the triangle reticle versus the round “dot” is worth the tradeoff.
I will also second the OP practice regimen for “finding” the dot. The presentation is key; and training with the RMR-equipped G17 has improved my shooting with all standard sighted pistols as well. Biggest fix for me was bringing the pistol up to my line of sight, as opposed to “turtling” my head down to try and find the sights… which is amplified 10x when using the RMR.
As the owner of a dual-illuminated model with the amber triangle I am not a huge fan of it. That said, I ‘think’ it might be because of the Amber color.
In bright daylight it is great. Using the top of the triangle as POI for sighting at distance and the whole reticle for close in quick shots I can work with a bit more speed than my normal aimpoint setups.
Indoor or lower light the Amber reticle is often hard to distinguish, vanishing almost altogether against some backgrounds. I simply does not have the contrast to pick it up quickly, or just cannot be seen.
The complete bane of the Dual-illuminated version is a double hit with the amber reticle. It is just completely gone when shooting out of low light into bright light.
The optic is about 2 years old according the trijicon on the Manufacturing date so that is not the issue.
As a comparison, I also have an RX30 with the 6.5MOA amber dot and it is quite viewable indoors and you can at least see a tiny bit of the dot when shooting from low light to bright light. I think the much larger light-gathering strip makes the difference.
My suggestion would be if you are going to get a DI model, get red or green. I’ve used a friend’s green DI model and it stands out much better.
As a primary optic? I would avoid the dual illuminated. It has the same faults as the ACOG. There are too many situations where you’ll be looking for that dot and it’ll never show up because its washed out.
As a backup for another optic? Its great.
I’d like to do this sometime. How much, more or less, does milling the slide cost?
I got front cocking serrations, the RMR milling, suppressor height sights, and single-color Cerakote for around $300.
I’m glad your experience was good. My experience with the RMR (RM-06) has not been as good.
1) I had the disappearing dot. dismounted, remounted, used the underlying plate, took it back out, changed the battery, etc., etc. No change. Sent it in to Trijicon.
Got it back with a receipt that said ‘tested, no problem found’
I took it back out to the range and within 2 sessions had the disappearing dot. This time I started troubleshooting with take the rmr off, reinstall and that seemed to work.
It worked for about 4 weeks.
Then the battery died.
The battery life on these is supposed to be measured in months. I’ve only had it for 3 months and it’s spent as much time at Trijicon as it has on my gun…
The accuracy is good, I have mine mounted on a .45 and it does hold zero. Right now I’m running a rear dovetail mount as I make up my mind if I want to mill the slide or not. What I’ve found is that for square range shooting, the RMR is very good when it works. Put some unusual shooting positions, corner work or “pie-ing” into things and it’s not so clear cut.
it’s easy to lose the dot and if you have no other reference point you can’t make an accurate shot. The shroud of the RMR obstructs the front of the gun so your “reference” point on the front isn’t visible without a suppressor height sight.
You can find other tales of similar issues by pointing your preferred internet search engine to “Trijicon RMR disappearing dot”
My experience with that is that the RDS is screwed on too tight. I backed mine off a quarter turn and never had a problem.
Re the dual illuminated model…there are some downsides.
Here is one person’s experience:
The dual illuminated version works pretty good outdoors in various light conditions. In a situation where I am in a darker area, say, in the shade, and my target is in bright light. the dot seems very dim and difficult to see. Another problem occurs when the light is low, but, not low enough for the tritium to kick in. The dot doesn’t seem bright enough and it gets worse if you use a flashlight to illuminate the target. In that situation I would rely on the iron sights or just the sight window. As for the led version of the RMR, I haven’t yet been in a situation where the dot hasn’t been practical. It’s just brighter all the time, but, not so bright that it becomes overwhelming. My first one has almost one year on the original battery. I plan to change it on my birthday.
Dave, you paint far too negative a picture.
I encourage anyone considering one to do their research. Spend a lot of time with Google using their detailed search options. Be careful about anecdotal claims like Dave’s that are misinformed. If he had done his research he would have realized he needed suppressor sights when using his RMR.
He would also have realized that they work much better mounted on a milled slide.
There is a lot to consider and I spent several months doing my research and trying them out on several handguns with various dot sizes before I made my final decision.
You have spent what a case or two of ammo, and a couple weeks with it and suddenly you are an expert. You are hardly in the position where you can simply call someone that disagrees with your misinformed particularly on long term usage metrics like battery life.
Well, ok, Mr. Grumpy…spend a lot of time reading and researching the Trijicon RMR as I did for a couple months and come back and let me know how many times you read about “battery life issues” with the Trijicon RMR in any reviews and discussions about them in the past year or so.
Mr Grumpy, I prefer Mr. Doom and Gloom. I got that after I tore apart a fan boy post about Adam Arms on another forum.
That wasn’t an attempt to back the person up as I don’t have a dog in this fight, but to tell you that your dismissive attitude about people whose experiences are different from yours, is out of place with your experience level with the product. Heck even the experts, who often have the right to have a dismissive attitude about critics, will instead use their experience to educate saying things like “in my experience the battery life last X months” or “I’ve used a dozen RMRs and none have had any issues.”
You apparently have chosen to miss the point. I have done my research extensively, and if Dave, or you, wish to do the same and find a body of meaningful and substantial evidence to make your assertions, fine, but until that time, well, its doom and gloom for you, sir.
No you are the one that is missing the point, this isn’t about who is right or wrong as that is besides the point. It is how you approach the criticism. You admit to having very little experience with the product, and then you just dismissed his claim as misinformed as if you are some grand expert on the subject, when in reality his experiences are simply different. That is no different from the guy who buys a Glock, shoots a couple of thousand rounds and claim it is the best gun ever.
You just don’t have a leg to stand on here, seriously.
Very funny, it isn’t like I haven’t heard that joke before. *insert eye rolling gif*
And while you were checking up on me, I did a google search on you, it appears this “I’m right and you are wrong” with no debate on the issue is your MO. To the point that you’ve been banned from several website relating to your day job. And you at least have some measured level of expertise there. Within the subject mater of shooting, your ego is way beyond your experience level.
Your review is equally anecdotal Paul, and I think it is a bit of a stretch to call my experience or the picture I paint of it misinformed. This accusation makes you simply a liar, calling the veracity of your entire review into question. Here is what I said:
“The accuracy is good, I have mine mounted on a .45 and it does hold zero. Right now I’m running a rear dovetail mount as I make up my mind if I want to mill the slide or not. What I’ve found is that for square range shooting, the RMR is very good when it works. Put some unusual shooting positions, corner work or “pie-ing” into things and it’s not so clear cut.”
With reliability unknown, I was not about to mill the slide out for something I was not 100% confident would work. Suppressor height sights would provide an additional reference point in non standard shooting positions, sure. As it turns out, that trepidation was justified. I’ve had probably 7 or 8 sets of Trijicon night sights over the years, and only 1 issue with them; the HD sights, and they replaced the bad part. I’ve also got a TA11 on one of my go to rifles, so I am by no means vendor bashing the RMR, but pointing out my experience and in case you missed it:
“You can find other tales of similar issues by pointing your preferred internet search engine to “Trijicon RMR disappearing dot””
My RMR didn’t even make out of the first range session before it manifested problems, barely a few shots after zero. I think it was 40 or 42 rounds until the unit stopped showing the dot. 3 more range sessions of similarly small round counts, taking an inordinate amount of time ensued before the sight went back to Trijicon. Since its return the round count is ~480 until the battery went out, and another 70 since replacement.
Something else potential RMR customers might want to bear in mind – Trijicon’s lifetime warranty is non-transferrable. So if your experience isn’t as rosy as Paul’s, your resale value might be less than you expect.
The problem with anecdotal reviews like Paul’s – and mine – is that you don’t have a significant statistical sample to know what your odds are of drawing the short straw.
Dave, the problem with your remarks is that you are providing NOTHING but your own experiences. I challenge you to do the research required and then find *substantial* hard factual evidence to back up your claims about the Trijicon RMR’s lack of reliability. Use Google’s advanced search features and do that research of reviews, articles, etc. published in the past year and get back to us.
I’ve done it. I’ve reported what I’ve found. You? All you have is a bunch of misinformed generalizations based on your negative experience. Sorry you had it, but you are trying to write off an optic system based on a combination of:
Operator error on your part.
Lack of awareness of how to use it properly.
Improper installation.
Failure to adequately train with it.
Hello again Paul,
The problem with your original post, and your various replies is that you are showing confirmation bias. Your experience with your RMR is fine and you have summarily dismissed my results as they are different from yours and they do not fit your beliefs. Readers here will note I offered right up front that I was glad your results were good and that mine were different in some ways.
I was able to find other issues similar to mine via google, as you suggested.
What evidence from your vast research that you have claimed are you willing to share here that debunks my experience? What evidence do you require to believe that my RMR didn’t work as hyped? The truth is that no amount of evidence I could provide would be sufficient for you because it would not fit within the parameters of your “findings”, such as they are.
Your response above indicates a lack of willingness to fully read and comprehend. You’ll note the RMR is still on my .45, nor have I ever indicated I’m ditching the whole line as you indicate below. Rather, I urged others to use caution in considering the purchase of a red dot that in and of itself is over $550, and at a minimum expense more requires at least a dovetail sight insert to be fitted -about another $70 – 150 dollars depending on whether or not you can install sights yourself. Machining the slide is significantly more intricate and expensive. That is a lot of money to spend, and if it doesn’t work, you’re back to iron sights until Trijicon is done with it.
For those of you interested, follow this a few pages deep before deciding for yourself.
http://bit.ly/1qmSePt
You’ve made a lot of assumptions Paul, all of which are again showing evidence of confirmation bias as you refuse to accept that there was a mechanical problem or problems with apparently not just my RMR, but all RMRs everywhere! that’s not a review, that’s advocacy, and again it calls the veracity of your review and the TTAG’s integrity into question. If you will openly dismiss the possibility that the product may have reliability issues at all, what else in your review have you applied that to?
I can certainly accept that your example may have been a solid performer, but now I certainly have doubts. I can accept that there are many who have taken the plunge on an RMR and had great success, and others have had problems. It is probably safe to assume that the majority of customers are not having major issues, however, the google results you’re urging people that you did will reveal that early models suffered from reliability issues, and the disappearing dot problem.
So, Paul… Where is the data other than YOUR own experience with the RMR? failures and all. After all, you spent over a year researching it, so that should be literally scores of 1st person examples to base your review on, right?
let’s hear it. don’t be shy.
Thanks for the nice write up. The big problem with red dots on handguns is that if you don’t have a good presentation, which easily happen in unusual positions, the red dot can be off the screen and you don’t know its its high, low, right or left. You have to transition to your mechanical sights to get the gun lined up. I tried it and didn’t like it, but your mileage may vary.
Please don’t use the term Tier 1 (if referring to military), it is a outdated term that never actually meant what people thought it did. If you are referring to CAG or Damneck, SMU is a the better term
Like I said, it requires a learning curve and you have to be willing to put the time in to get used to it. This is why a lot of dry fire practice really paid off for me.
If you “lose” the dot, you simply think “front sight” and the dot will reappear in frame as you line up the front sight as you ordinarily woukd, another good reason to get suppressor sights installed with it.
Can one still use iron sights? Also, how does it conceal? Tdoes the sight get in the way when concealing.
Yes, in fact, many recommend having suppressor sights installed when you have the slide milled, that’s what I did. I have Trijicon suppressor sights/night sights mounted and can see the iron sight picture clearly. The red dot co-witnesses right on top of the front post.
Conceal carry? I don’t know, since I do not conceal carry my Glock 34. But I can’t imagine why not, for instance, on a Glock 19.
I think their concern is that if they use a IWB holster, it wouldn’t fit properly. And with some they would be right.
http://www.blackhawk.com//CatalogImages/18-1151-IMG1.jpeg
http://cdn2.armslist.com/sites/armslist/uploads/posts/2012/11/06/646524_01_glock_30_with_blackhawk_iwb_ho_640.jpg
You can see there’s virtually no room to attach anything to the slide and holster it properly. It’s actually a concern of mine too. Maybe something like an Alien Gear holster would work
http://aliengearholsters.com/catalog/product/gallery/id/686/image/2670/
but it still looks like you may need to remove the rear sight to get the this to fit.
It is a concern of mine, I wouldn’t mind having a red dot on a pistol but I am afraid of it being harder to conceal (due to being taller). The fact that you can still use iron sights is a good thing. I don’t want to be only good with a red dod and be screwed when something happens to it or i have to use another gun.
Can one still use iron sights? Also, how does it conceal? Tdoes the sight get in the way when concealing?
Seans, please don’t tell people not to use terms which are perfectly clear. Please do not be “that guy “
Well Paul, I highly doubt the term is “perfectly clear”. Cause 90% of SOF couldn’t accurately describe what the Tier system meant when it was place. I highly doubt any civilians would actually know what it meant. If I asked you to explain, I bet I would probably hear something about how it is a ranking system, and Tier 1 is the best. Unfortunately the term has been misused by the majority of people who hear it. Cause if you said you were a member of a Tier 1 unit, I would ask, are you a member of the Tier 1 parachute riggers, or maybe the surgical unit, or maybe that Tier 1 supply unit. Cause the amount of Tier 1 units who actually did what people thought Tier 1 did was the minority. And the Tier system also had nothing to do with how good you are. Cause the majority of Tier 3 units were far better trained and equipped than the major Tier 2 unit. Your using a term that tells the few people who actually knew about it, you have no clue what you are talking about. So I would love to hear your perfectly clear explanation of how the Tier system worked.
“Seans,” you are determined to miss the point and run with your pedantry. I leave you to it. Enjoy yourself.
You tried to use a term to impress people that you didn’t know what it actually meant. And doesn’t mean what people thinks it does. I called you on it and you got upset, and you tried to state that it had a clear meaning. Which it doesn’t.
Sean…cool story bro, let me know when you get to the “we don’t care” chapter.
Actually, just to play devils advocate I do care.
When words and phrases get misused they lose meaning…thus they lose power. Also, by the sound of it seans has personal experience about it which would demand a bit more respect than you are showing him.
Waiting to see what the Redfield can do at 40% the cost especially since it’s going on a sport weapon in my case.
No youtubes from real users yet.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/01/chris-dumm/new-from-redfield-accelerator-mini-red-dot/
That’s a really well written review which got me thinking about getting one, when I never even considered the idea before. Thanks!
“Is that you Gabe Suarez? Is that me?”
I think this is the kind of giveaway that TTAG should have. Most people on here already have guns. Suppressors would be nice too, but anyone who got one of those would need to register with ATF and pay the $200 stamp (plus possibly start a gun trust), so having the chance to win one of these equally valuable accessories, to go with the gun you already have, would be awesome.
@TTAG, please make this a contest prize!!!
Agree!
I have the big brother to this on my 300 blackout rifle.
I love it.
Very fast to use.
I love my RMR’ed Glock. Once you become accustomed to it, it is fantastic. The key is quality build. Almost all gunsmiths are incompetent to do it. You need a machine shop that most smiths are to cheap to afford. Pedantry in the usage in this thread works both ways.
Yes, this is definitely not a job for the weekend metal worker. You get what you pay for with these kinds of things.
I have the RM07 (6.5 MOA LED) on my FNP-45T (milled slide and suppressor iron sights). Love it. It does take some getting used to, as has been said. I’ve had no problems at all with mine (battery, reliability, etc.).
That’s the key…you must allow yourself plenty of time to learn an entirely new way of sighting a handgun. And practice makes perfect. Fortunately, you do not need any ammo to practice sighting with it. Dry fire practice is, as with most things, your great friend.
Still just a glock.
Flame on
Flaming on!
Don’t post on the Internet when you are drunk, or, unfortunately, you may not even have that for an excuse.
Flame on!
Waiting to try one on a pistol. It took me a long time to go to red dots for long guns but now love them
I think these mini red dots have a strong future, Hopefully more pistols will have top rails milled.
Just wish they were not so expensive
Nice review. Tried my friend’s RMR on his full size M&P and was impressed with the clarity of the dot, though the retraining of old habits would definitely have to happen for me – I’m one of those weirdos who is right handed, but left eye dominant.
Someday…
Thanks, G, I should have mentioned how sharp and well defined the dot is on the RMR. It is really impressive. It is more sharp and distinct than the dot in my Aimpoint T-1. I like how I can adjust it as well for various lighting conditions.
People seriously can’t find the red dot? It’s no harder than finding the front sight. If it is that big an issue, practice your presentations. My biggest complaint with the design is the big “window”. It really doesn’t need to be much bigger than the rear iron sights, which would allow them to co-witness.
Thanks for your comment, Retro. While I do not find as difficult as some may be concerned it is, I think we can agree it definitely is not as easy as a rifle red dot. It does take some getting used to.
You mentioned one source and the process to get the Glock slide milled, I’d like to link to my blog (if that doesn’t violate any rules on here, if it does I apologize and delete at will) to the process and my experience with it. In my opinion it is good information to get out and one of the big mysteries for the whole RMR process.
http://vdmsr.blogspot.com/2014/05/glock-19-rmr-process.html#more
Why on earth would TTAG post a copy of PTMCCAIN’s (aka ARMSDORF, aka VDMA) “review” for serious consideration?
An “advanced Google search” of him and his antics/”knowledge” across multiple forums that would have prevented all of this nonsense.
His credibility is nonexistent and TTAG is willingly dragging themselves down to his level by giving him the illusion of a valuable published contributor.
Please delete his “review” in hopes of saving an unsuspecting individual the possibility of relying on him as an actual source of credible information.
I’d like coffee, bacon and a few eggs, scrambled, with my ad hominey, please.
: )
Voodoo Man
Excellent blog post!
Thanks for posting the link to it.
Note to Dave:
The burden of proof rests on you. You are making assertions. You have not proven them. The old saying holds: he who asserts must prove. Your whining does not constitute proof.
Provide links to all the substantial QC evidence you can find in the last year.
Your claims are unfounded, and we both know it.
There are no widespread reports of QC issues with the Trijicon RMR in the past year as easily discovered via Google.
Nice try Paul, you’re the one who said you’ve done a year’s worth of research. You have put up a subjective “this is my experience review” which holds no more weight than any other person in the world.
Put up, or shut up. Where is your year’s with of extensive data?
I put up links, you refuse to for some strange reason.
You simply cannot someone else had a different experience and now you’re just getting defensive. It’s quite pathetic really, and again, just service to feed your confirmation bias.
That kind of approach to talking about firearms and accessories does a disservice to gun owners. Every manufacturer puts out products that sometimes don’t perform up to standards. What’s interesting is Trijicon will admit to -presumably anyone – callers to their tech support that the RMR has had some previous issues, and once in a while one has to be serviced. You however will not.
This just shows you’re not willing to be objective.
Dave, sorry, you apparently simply refuse to understand this simple point.
“He who asserts must prove.”
You responded to my review with an attempt to paint Trijicon’s RMR’s in the worst possible light, based on your unfortunate negative experience.
You have provided ZERO proof to back up your sweeping generalizations and assertions.
Again: “He who asserts must prove.”
If there is, in fact, such a substantial body of evidence out there that the Trijicon RMR has QC issues, I’m sure you will easily be able to find it and point us to it. Using Google’s advanced search features anyone can easily search on various phrases like, “problems with Trijicon RMR” and limit the search results to the past year. Easily done.
You have not provided any proof or evidence in your effort to assert that there are substantial problems with Trijicon’s RMR products. None. Zero.
Why?
Because it does not exist. You know that. I know that. The burden of proof rests with you to prove your assertions, not on me to refute them Dave.
Google is your friend, Dave. But in this case, it is your enemy.
“He who asserts must prove.”
You have asserted. You have not proven.
This has made you very frustrated and now you are attempting to deflect via personal attacks. It is not working.
End of story. Have a nice day.
No Paul, where is YOUR proof, that you have touted? You asserted first, now prove
Put up or shut up.
Howdy gents.
1). First, very nicely written piece.
2). Anything man made can break. Aimpoint Micros go down, so do airplanes. That is why having the iron sights in their traditional position is so crucial. I have been running Trijicon RMRs since 2010 and if I replace the battery once a year, I have no issues. If the battery ambushes you by dying, you have irons right there to continue.
3). Anytime a customer has had any issues with the RMR, sending them to Trijicon got them a working RMR. As I said…anything man-made can fail. We have seen an odd RMR now and then have battery issues. As well, once in a while you have someone strip the zero screws. Trij will fix it all…and has. If you treat it like an educated first world operator, it will serve you well.
4). The irons are essential for a number of reasons. First as instant cowitnessed back up sights. Second, as instant zero verification system for those times when the RMR must be removed. Third, as visual training wheels to get the eye-brain to work with the red dot. Figure that you have spent thousands of repetitions picking up the iron sights…with the systems discussed you use those skills and simply learn to had off that visual hold from irons to dot. Eventually you pick up the dot first.
5). We have put these in the hands of some very “active” military guys and our slides have been on the ground in some very cool places and times. These have all been the adjustable LED models. If TTAG is interested, I will send them a write up of the advantages and liabilities of each RMR model.
6). The pistol mounted red dot sight is a disruptive technology and it is inescapable that it will meet resistance, if not outright hatred. I recall the same response when those Austrians brought out that plastic gun back in the early 1990s. Today you would be hard pressed to find a serious operator’s rifle without some sort of red dot optic on it. Within five years, we will be saying the same about the red dots on handguns.
Cheers,
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International
http://www.warriortalk.com
You see this is how to respond to criticism. Not blindly dismiss them as misinformed.
Don’t worry, I’m sure Paul will now impugn Gabe’s qualifications and reputation as well as his findings.
No, not at all Dave. You are so blinded by your effort to criticize RMRs that you failed to notice Gabe basically handed you your butt in this conversation. Any effort, like yours, to suggest that Trijicon RMRs have any sort of significant QC issues is laughable and as you have demonstrated now several times you have no proof to back your assertions about their lack of reliability.
Paul, you’re just lying:
again, here is what I said.
“I can certainly accept that your example may have been a solid performer, but now I certainly have doubts. I can accept that there are many who have taken the plunge on an RMR and had great success, and others have had problems. It is probably safe to assume that the majority of customers are not having major issues, however, the google results you’re urging people that you did will reveal that early models suffered from reliability issues, and the disappearing dot problem.”
if the product was not profitable it would leave the marketplace, so again it’s safe to say the majority are not problematic. However, your refusal to accept that there are any problems should give any reader reason for concern. The difference here, between us is that I am willing to accept that the product is viable and others have good, working examples. I am further willing to accept that others have had flawless performance from their units and that the RMR can be run on a handgun with effectiveness.
You are unwilling to accept the mere possibility that the product is capable of failing in any way, links, no links, round count, whatever. People should draw their own conclusions. It’s your lack of objectivity that gives me pause about the veracity of your “review”, combined with my RMR having initial problems. More so than my RMR’s actual performance. This is significant expense, so weighing the choice is worth considering.
I like the concept and as I’ve pointed out in a previous post have been multi-product customer of Trijicon. Unfortunately for me I’ve got to run the thing for a while again to see if my RMR is chewing up batteries, or I just had a dud battery in there. When the round count is higher and I’m past a few more weeks I’ll decide on milling the slide and adding suppressor height sights or retask it.
I wanted to add that with the growing interest in pistol-mounted red dots, there will be a definite entry into the market by lower quality units. Even good quality units that end up cheapening out in manufacture to keep up.
There are some important aspects to this application.
1). The foot print must be small (short and narrow actually) enough to mount onto the slide and still allow for the back up iron sights. The Insights MRDS for example is very robust, but is too tall and too long for most pistols.
2). Cost is definitely a factor. The MSRP of an adjustable LED (RM06) is around $625. It can be found for less but Trijicon’s aggressive policing of MAP policies will not get you one as the original buyer for much less. And with the prevalence of Chi-com copies, buying a second or third hand RMR from the back of a truck in a foggy alley somewhere doesn’t inspire confidence in its origin.
3). On the cost thing. Guys will buy a $1000 scope for a rifle they may use two or three times a year, but shrink at a sight that costs half hat which can potentially enable them to be faster and more surgically accurate with the gun they use 24-7-365 to keep their families safe. These days you cannot ignore the cost, but for those that can afford it, it will definitely be a benefit.
4). Cost shortcuts? I think the Trijicon is the top shelf sight for this application. There are two others that are worth considering. The Leupold Delta Point and the Docter III. What these have is a slightly lower cost (around $150-200 less), and the ability to lock down the zero with set screws at the stern.
Deltapoint is not as bright as the Trijicon, but I am advised they have a new model coming which will make the guys in Michigan very uncomfortable. We’ll see. In any case, we will be offering a Delta installation shortly.
Docter is another sight that has the same advantages as the Leupold. I ran into some problems with these and their importation.recently (too much cash up front, too high a number of units, and little support from manufacturers). Until those issues can be fixed, we have stopped working with the Docter III,
The others out there…the Fastfires, Redfields, C-mores, and J-Points – we tested them early on and dismissed them for varying reasons ranging from poor glass quality or plastic), lack of brightness in the high AZ sun, lack of water proofing, and other factors. With these optics, price really is a guide to quality.
Sig had a Meopta prototype on a handgun at SHOT, but I have not had a chance to work with it.
5). Handguns. The easiest installations are on striker fired pistols. Right now we are focused on Glocks as when we teach a class, 99% of the guys are running one of those. The only Glock we have not put a red dot on is the Glock 42 .380. I thought about it but it seemed silly.
The system can be done on S&W MP, Steyrs, 1911s, and anything with enough mass on the slide. We tried unsuccessfully to do this on an HK, although the new VP9 has promise. No Berettas, no Walthers, nothing where the mechanisms or safeties lie too close to the upper area of the slide.
Gabe Suarez
Suarez International
>>”Deltapoint is not as bright as the Trijicon, but I am advised they have a new model coming which will make the guys in Michigan very uncomfortable. We’ll see. In any case, we will be offering a Delta installation shortly.”
I talked to Doug at a match a couple of months ago, and he informed me that the Deltapoint II had entered production just then. So they will probably be on the shelves soon.
The top person to have a rds mount done with is Mark Housel at L&M Precision. The one he did for me turned out great.
http://www.landmprecisiongunworks.com/
L&M does good work, but there are other very good places doing it as well. One Source Tactical did a good job for me. I’d be a bit careful about claiming anyone is “the top” in this particular area. Again, do your research, compare prices, read feedback from customers, etc. The consumer does have options, which is a good thing.
I would be wary of dealing with OST. In the past they have chosen not to honor their warranties on some of their products.
http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?89687-Effective-Immediately-OSTwill-NOT-warranty-Lone-Wolf-slides-any-longer
>>>Gabe Suarez 08-23-2011, 03:38 PM
Effective Immediately – OSTwill NOT warranty Lone Wolf slides any longer
Effective Immediately – OST will NOT warranty Lone Wolf slides any longer. If you have any issues with a Lone Wolf brand slide or barrel bought from OST, you need to contact Lone Wolf themselves for any warranty issues. We will not handle that matter any longer.
If they hang up on you, give you the run around, or otherwise shine you on, we are certainly sorry for that but their quality control problems are not, nor will they become, our warranty problems.
Done and Done.<<<
Not a confidence builder to make one wwant to shop there.
Nice attempt to trash OST.
The issue was, obviously, with Lone Wolf.
And you are posting something from nearly three years ago.
I’ve had nothing but excellent customer service from OST, with great comms, service and product delivered ahead of schedule.
Go troll somewhere else.
Gung Fu Sifu once said, “‘Tis better to be silent, and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt”. ;). Isn’t that so “Mark”.
Gabe, its all really just a moot point any longer since RDS pretty much told you to go fly a kite and ordered their sub distributors not to sell to you. Thus your apiphany of the Docter 3. Therefore you are no longer even a player in the trijicon world. Its funny how so many in the industry have shunned you like Mr. Anderson of US Palm, Scottsdale Gun Club, Dillion and a host of others. You know why? Because they all discovered who you really are. An angry little man who discovered that conflict stirs interest. Thus you believe that people will seek you out to see who this guy is. That may have worked at one time. But your reputation is known and people, members of your former and your instructor base are leaving in leaps and bounds. On not standing up for warranties on items you have sold. That has been my experience as well as that of many. The ocassional announcement where your going to fix something is just that. Its an empty announcement. The few that try to have you honor it are rudely yelled at and called stupid etc. Its really bad. Now that I have spoke my peace and the truth……… undoubtly you’ll lash back with some craftily devised response. Probably calling me a narco trafficker / bank robber and wanted for murder in 5 countries or some other colorful response. I find the descriptions humorous.
I am also known as COLOMBIANITO formerly on WT and now at Paragonpride.
To Vincent Savage, aka Larry Luccia (the pot calling the kettle as it were)
Larry: its all really just a moot point any longer since RDS pretty much told you to go fly a kite and ordered their sub distributors not to sell to you. Thus your apiphany of the Docter 3. Therefore you are no longer even a player in the trijicon world.
My Reply: Really? Get your facts straight Larry. I have the lowest prices on “installed” Trijicons in the industry, and the quickest turn around. Would be impossible to do if I was “not a player”. Money talks just like in the cocaine biz. You know that.
Example: http://www.onesourcetactical.com/suareztrijiconrmrinstallation.aspx
Example: http://www.onesourcetactical.com/tsdslidemodifications.aspx
Larry: Its funny how so many in the industry have shunned you like Mr. Anderson of US Palm, Scottsdale Gun Club, Dillion and a host of others.
My Reply: Huh. Rob and I spoke on the phone recently and we are both quite cordial. He just bought US Palm and we have every intent of continuing our relationship. Scottsdale Gun Club? Double huh. I was there recently with the kids shooting machineguns as a present for doing well in school. Dillon? I have never had any dealings with Dillon.
Now if you are referring to the former staffers whose contracts were not renewed, I think we both know the girth of that situation.
Larry: An angry little man who discovered that conflict stirs interest.
My Reply: Angry? Sometimes. Little? Only compared to you and your friends who are at least three times the man I am…around the belt anyway.
Larry: Now that I have spoke my peace and the truth……… undoubtly you lash back with some craftily devised response. Probably calling me a narco trafficker / bank robber and wanted for murder in 5 countries or some other colorful response. I find the descriptions humorous.
My Reply: Thanks for the set-up. I think I am responding rather than lashing. You are…or were a narco-trafficker unless what you told me is a lie…which is likely. Bank Robber? I don’t know, but since our friend the US Marshal checked you out I don’t think you are that. Wanted for murder? We both know that you are not in the USA but that is another matter in Colombia. Do you brief all your real estate clients in Florida about your background Larry?
I must say that I astounded at what the owners of some blogs will allow on their sites. Anyway…cheers Larry.
https://scontent-a-lax.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/t1.0-9/380349_312990742150002_1696622564_n.jpg
I knew the response would be colorful. Larry Luccia? hahaha Sounds like a character from GoodFellas. I told you I was a cocaine dealer/trafficker and you still trained me? hahahaha
All the forum members know I am colorful and lead a great lifestyle. They know I am married to a gorgeous Colombian wife. They also ALL KNOW ME TO BE HONEST AND TRUTHFUL TO A FAULT.
Your astounded? I am the one astounded. How can a man who runs around causing controversy and calling people fags and badmouthing them be tolerated?
Real Estate BTW is booming again. Anybody needing my services please feel free to contact me.
BTW, Installing Trijicons supplied by customers does NOT dispel the fact that Trijicon told you to go by by. Then they ordered others not to sell to you either. Facts are facts Mr G. On being the fastest and cheapest in the industry………. whats the saying about Fast , Cheap or Good? Pick any 2 I think the story goes. On Mark at L&M, I would have to agree with everyone else. He is simply the best out there at this point. Even your instructors are / were sending everybody to him behind your back. That has got to sting!!!!
And yet Larry…I am selling Trijicons on pistols quite well, and even making my own slides. Perhaps they are all “imaginary” RMRs.
You did tell me you were a drug dealer…and you still came to my class. Our students come from all walks of life…you know that. I train everyone. I checked you via a mutual friend and I saw you to be a good man. A bit unstable, and emotional, with some unusual associates, but a good man nonetheless. As far as the badmouthing, I only see one segment of the population doing that here.
And for the record, we dropped Master Distributor with Trijicon when they stopped delivering anything for several months. We found it easier to simply buy what we needed from the overstocked dealers and distributors. In case you didn’t know, last year Trijicon stopped delivering anything in February, including ongoing blanket orders. I saw what was going to happen and cancelled all of mine. In October, they shipped all back ordered blanket orders (9 months worth of Trijicon products) and expected dealers to pay the net 30. That is why everyone saw Trijicon RMRs sold everywhere for unheard of prices. I didn’t get caught up in that, and still have an extremely steady supply of Trijicon RMRs without the drama.
As far as Mr. Housel, you well know he worked for me at one time. We moved on to the use of a CNC machine and to making our own slides, and that was that. The steady drama-free supply of RMRs and the humming CNC machine allows us to flip milling with great speed and with far less cost than when using others to do the work. If any of the former staff were referring people to him, their disloyalty is not surprising.
Incidentally, we just added a new finish, ION Bonding which has turned out to be very nice and rugged. We have some here – http://www.onesourcetactical.com/suareztrijiconrmrinstallation-1-5.aspx
So, did you have any other emotional outbursts for me Larry, or are we done now?
I wonder if my very large list of General Officers, Politicians and Heads of State friends know that I am a Narco Mafioso? ” EWWWWW!!!” hahahahaha
Anyone can have someone slap a sticker or engrave a name on a products thus giving the illusion its a proprietary product when in fact its outsourced. Installing someones RMR on a slide you milled is not being a mover and shaker bro. But yes, I am done.
Larry, if you look at the product page…here it is again (I love all this indirect marketing you are giving me opportunity to do), you will see that I am doing far more than installing a customer’s RMR (which we do of course).
Here is the link again – http://www.onesourcetactical.com/slides.aspx
And while we are at it, anyone that mentions your comical posts or TTAG in their slide order, I will send them a Discount Certificate to any course they wish to take with that RMR-equipped slide. Customers need only send me an email with the order number and I will make sure they get their discount certificate. Here is a running calendar of our courses – http://www.suarezinternationalstore.com/classschedule.aspx
Thanks for all the marketing help Larry.
Your welcome.
As an early adopter of the TSD RMR equipped gun, I have had no issues with my daily carry Glock 19 other than the annual battery replacement. I own several Glocks equipped with RMRs and have thousands of rounds through them between teaching, taking classes, and letting students shoot them. My G31 equipped with an RMR hit steel at ridiculous distances in excess of 200 yards in Prescott a few years back. All the staff had a chance to shoot it with just cheap training ammo and everyone made consistent hits. It’s a great system.
What a waste of cash. If in competition ok, I’m somewhat of a hypocrite being I spend 2k on my rifle optic but I actually shoot out past 1,000, and for a handgun this trend of throwing on red dots is just getting ridiculous. Range cool or comp, no other reason to use em. For defensive and carry probably one of the worst optic options available. It’s amazing how fads and trends can grab even the most anti-trend gun folks eventually. If I want to hit 100 or beyond I use a rifle.
Everyone has an opinion, but yours apparently does not coincide with that of 5th Group SF who use Trijicon RMRs on their Glock 19s. But hey…what do they know right?
Nice breakdown, I’ve done similar on a post on my own blog and found similar likes and dislikes. The size and durability is what really sets it apart. Being able to take the force from the slide kicking back after every shot and not losing its zero is key. The RMR works great as a backup optic as well on defensive rifles.
How can the common man get a custom man Blade-tech holster fitted for a glock 21 with Surefire X400 laser light & Trijicon RM06 (3.25 MOA RMR)? Is it a matter of calling?
I’ve been using the Trijicon RMR sight for a while now but I accidentally dropped it on concrete and now it’s not working. I like Trijicon sights as a brand, but I was looking for another model. Does any know if this is model is any good? – Best Trijicon Sight
has anyone here experienced spotty spec’s on the display when turned up a little high? i own a RMR RM07
The Trijicon RMR sight in the article is quite good . I’ve used it for the last year and I think it is the best red dot sight. Definitely buy it!
Has anyone noticed a dry-fire learning curve? Specifically, does anyone find it a little more difficult to keep the red dot steady through the trigger break. Using irons my front sight rarely moves at all. However, with the red dot on, I get movement that makes me think I should be consulting my target/shot-placement diagnostic diagram. Here’s the puzzling thing: at the range my groupings are virtually identical between the irons and the red dot, at the same distance. Only difference is that I can track the red dot through recoil and maintain a tighter group at faster speeds with the RMR. Very puzzled by this. Any help or advice would be most appreciated.
Dan
Hi all
I read thru this entire thread and decided to take Gabe up on his offer–see a few posts above. That is to say I mentioned Larry’s name and asked for the discount coupon on training. Gabe’s response, to paraphrase, was that these were not his posts and that he would find the imposter and it would not be pleasant.
Needless to say I was taken aback. The posts seemed so much like Gabe and he covered in this over one year ago thread much of what he propounded in an Ebook he recently released.
I do not doubt Gabe, but who would go thru the trouble of imitating Gabe and at the same time promoting his company? Very strange.
So I guess my message is “be afraid, very afraid”. The Internet is full of imposters–and no, I did not get a discount coupon….
Thanks for the info.
Good golly this entire thread was entertaining…..
It’s May 2016 and there still seems to be much Internet traffic about problems with Trijicon RMRs…even two years after the original problems started being reported.
Soooooo
Can folks tell me has later production runs solved these issues and how can one tell if they get one of these newer sights? Serial number?
$600 for a pistol optic is a bit steep….and I’d like to go Trijicon but that Leupold DeltaPoint Pro just looks……way better at this point.
And cheaper