After our post Gabe Suarez is Insane questioned the trainer’s suggestion that there may be times when it’s advisable to hold an adversary at gunpoint with your finger on the trigger, the gun guru fired-up his forum warriortalk.com: “Negative? Nope…not negative at all. I forced someone who doesn’t like me to write an entire article about me. So who is insane now suckaaaaaaa.” This morning, Mr. Suarez has posted about our post again. This time ’round he demonstrates his appreciation for one of our commentator’s jibes, submits more proof (as if proof were needed) that he’s a top-notch gun guy and validates JadeGold and Mikeb302000’s contention that some (they implied all and said many) gun gurus are homophobic . . .
Alright….so this AM I made a nice cup of coffee from the stash L.O.D. dropped off at the HRO class and sat at the screen here. One read through…the part about the baby tiger thing, and out comes the hot brew all over the keyboard. Too much.
Anyway…thanks for the support. We had so many hits on the story at WTN it was almost viral. To steal from Sun:
To win a battle without fighting is not the acme of skill, to get the enemy to fight for you while you reap the bounty is the acme of skill.
Here is a few good viral ones.
Gabe Suarez has a class coming up on I.E.D.s. He hired a few rougue Green berets and plans to teach the class all over the USA to civilians.
Gabe Suarez is protecting the Maddoff family. He was paid up front in cash.
Gabe Suarez will be featurd in the new Dos Equis Commercial as the deadliest man in the world
Come up with a few more guys…and then when you come across one of these silly fagsaboutguns stories, pop in one of those gems.
And just in case you thought this was some off-hand remark that doesn’t reflect Mr. Suarez’s company’s gestalt, self-identified Suarez International Staff Instructor and gun blogger Jack Rumbaugh felt obliged to add . . .
I recognize the stench of Crapshiit… Gabe, I think he has a thing for you. I’d watch out if you ever drop anything. Get Cheryl to cover your 6 when you bend down, bro.
It’s hard to argue with an iron-clad, well-reasoned response like that. How does that crow taste?
Well Gabe may be a little INSANE cuz now he’s picking on TTAG and I luv this site, so smarten up gabe.
When you think you can ‘win’ your argument by calling your opponent bigoted names, you’ve already lost. I’m sorry to learn that about Mr. Suarez.
Gun gurus?
Come now. There are very few professional pursuits where one can hang out a shingle and call themselves “an expert” or a “certified trainer/instructor” without having anything approaching a credential. Most professions require some sort of certification/licensure along with periodic refresher training and testing as well as oversight of conduct. For example, I hold several professional licenses. In order for me to get and keep these licenses, I had to satisfactorily complete my studies, had to gain OJT of a certain period, had to pass numerous tests. Further, I’m required to keep current in the professional literature, coursework and standards and pass periodic proficiency tests. If I screw up, I can have my license suspended or removed. I can be fined and I can be jailed.
Gunloonery is an exception. Anybody can claim they are a “certified instructor of gunfighting” or the like. There’s no certification, no oversight.
I ‘ve always sagely maintained militant gunloonery is largely driven by personal insecurity and low self-esteem. But there’s a financial side to it as well; there are no shortage of gunloons who can make a buck off gunloonery. The folks, like Suarez, run what are essentially fantasy camps under the guise of “training.”
There’s really no difference between the fantasy camps run by grifters like Suarez and those fantasy camps some MLB teams offer where you can sign up and play 3B alongside Brooks Robinson or bat against Jim Palmer. But the folks who go to a fantasy baseball aren’t under any illusion that one day they’ll be playing in the bigs. The gunloon fantasy camp participants are under a very dangerous illusion.
You hold 3 professional licenses. Good for you. You are obviously someone who cares about being good at what you do. With that being said, I am sure that you know plenty of people who share your professions that have satisfactorily completed their studies, completed the required OJT, passed the ‘numerous tests’, read all the literature etc, and passed plenty of proficiency checks, that are just plain incompetent. There is no shortage of dangerously unqualified Pilots, Doctors, Lawyers, Electricians, and Engineers despite the above processes being in place.
There will always be snake oil salesman in every profession. We just never hear much about the 99 percent of people who do good or excellent work in their chosen field because it isn’t news worthy and we take it for granted.
There are 300+ million people in this country and near as many guns. Every day about 27 murders are committed using a firearm and that is all we hear about. Not the hundreds of millions of people that keep and carry guns that didn’t kill anyone.
More people will die from mistakes made by licensed, certified, tested, professionals than by a firearm in the hands of a criminal.
Professional licenses in what? Hairdressing? Massage?
I am a certified (certifiable?) instructor in smartassery. I have decades of OJT and multiple former employers, as well as family and ex-girlfriends who will testify to my competency. My wife thinks it is cute… (most of the time)
Perhaps I should start a school?
Mr Suarez may have become homophobic during his stay in jail after being convicted of defrauding the goverment angency he worked for. My understanding is that due to the pleabargining he just avoided a felony conviction but if he had not done the pleabargining and been convicted of what he had been charged with it would have been a felony.
As always I could be wrong and may be mistaken but I do not believe so.
NukemJim
Yeah, he pleaded guilty to Workers Comp fraud, money laundering and grand theft. That doesn’t make him insane or a bad instructor and doesn’t mean that he’s not entitled to a second chance. He might be an a-hole, but so what?
Jeesh. And people think “I’m” a jerk…
Is Gabe Suarez insane? I don’t know about that. But I do know that he looks insanely fab-U-lous in that navy tee and Bermudas.
I stuck up for gabe a few times and even claimed that he was not insane, but now that he’s picking on my favorite site the poor fool must be INSANE. I still agree with some of his points, but the “FAG” comments he made about TTAG are totally uncalled for.
Considering JadeGold is antigun, how does anyone here expect him/her to have any authority on what is “fantasy” training and what really isn’t? And considering the hit ratio of police officers is very low, what exactly does that say about LEO training?
I have run force-on-force airsoft drills with carrying friends before I ever heard of Suarez International and it turned out that most of what I discovered to work in Force-on-Force are things that Suarez International has already covered.
Their marketing style is probably the originator of the “fantasy” derision because it doesn’t look like their kind of curriculum is taught anywhere else, so they’re doing their darndest to stand out. There’s also a couple of far-out courses such as “Terrorist Interdiction” that tries to deal with active shooters but I’m not really sure about that one. Some of their items and propaganda may be over the top but I’m sure everyone can make their own decisions about what is useful to them. Gabe Suarez himself has a post (http://www.warriortalk.com/showthread.php?9041-More-Silly-Gun-School-Things-That-Will-Get-You-Killed) saying:
“15). Guru worship.
Ah! Now there is the heavy one. Recently a student asked about becoming a Suarez International Trainer. He said, “I believe in you”. I stopped and corrected him, “Don’t believe in me, believe in what we are doing”. Guru worship has stagnated more shooters than you can shake a stick at. Sometimes they begin carrying the same gun as the guru, even talking like him. I remember one man with a college degree who spoke in broken English when he taught class…mimicking his instructor so much. I see the same thing in the gun world today. Respecting those who have gone before does not mean you must worship them. I respect what Jeff Cooper and Rex Applegate have done, as well as the works of Jim Cirillo, etc., but worship? No thanks. Learn what you are taught, be thankful for it, but keep only what is useful to you. And above all else…be your own man!”
In other words, do you HAVE to take and keep everything a teacher says? No. Gabe may not realize it but he is actually espousing Buddhist wisdom rather than Christian wisdom.
In all, it’s a bunch of guys trying to come up with solutions to violent problems that unsupported private citizens can use – and trying to test them out in all sorts of ways – which is exactly how warfare has evolved in the first place.
In all honesty though, you can try and open a more respectful dialogue and change his mind about verbiage. If he’s careful enough to abhor saying racial epithets I’m pretty sure he can change his mind about fags/GLBT or at least poor word choice. You probably also provoked the rough language by calling him “insane,” near on the level that hoplophobes call us “paranoid” and “crazy.” Then again, this is a man who thrives on going against the perceived grain – the stronger the hatred/response against him the louder he beats his chest.
Considering JadeGold is antigun, how does anyone here expect him/her to have any authority on what is “fantasy” training and what really isn’t?
Well, the next time you or family member experiences some kind of life-threatening illness–instead of going to licensed MD–why not try the guy who may not have any medical credentials whatsoever but is really, really interested in Harry Potter and has seen most every episode of MASH?
In all, it’s a bunch of guys trying to come up with solutions to violent problems that unsupported private citizens can use – and trying to test them out in all sorts of ways – which is exactly how warfare has evolved in the first place.
I really had to laugh at this; it displays such a naivete about warfare.
Let’s try this one more time. Poor wording on my part.
You run through all possible tactics and drills and see what works for you. You go into simulated combat (airsoft force on force) and you note how the body reacts and how your opponents may react. You take all of that into consideration and build upon those skills. Law enforcement agencies and military organizations train like this all the time. They develop possible responses to threats, hold exercises to see how well they stand up, and examine the results.
Every single training company -Front Sight, Magpul, Suarez, is doing the exact same thing so they can teach their students how to survive. The only way that you can legitimately call an entire methodology a “fantasy” is if it fails on multiple real-life counts.
So it’s not exactly evolution of warfare. I don’t know what term I would use, but I’m holding off on “fantasy” for the time being.
Let’s try again.
In reality, police and especially military units are far more likely to be engaging in physical fitness training and courses related to some specialty such as maintenance, T&E, logistics, etc. The time spent firing weapons either on a range or in various scenarios is minimal.
One also has to remember, LEOs and military units are rather self-selected groups. They aren’t folks who have just walked in off the street–they’ve some minimum level of physical and mental fitness, they’ve some minimum level of education, etc.
So I guess training by a former police officer isn’t valid then, I assume?
Almost every training company out there has instructors hailing from the armed services.
Do YOU have a better idea of training or are you going to sit back and spit out analogies?
Gabe Suarez is a former CA police officer with 15 years of service – and most of his instructors have experience in the LEO or armed forces.
Travis Haley (Magpul Dynamics) is a Force Recon Veteran and former Blackwater contractor with 14 years of experience.
Chris Costa (Magpul Dynamics) conducted law enforcement and special operations missions in Europe, the Middle East, and South America with the US Coast Guard for 12 years.
You can fill in more for each instructor, but I guess in your view, all of these guys are wrong (?)
In this case, with no central verification system, almost every trainer out there could be wrong, so all training is for naught, but then again, so are the ones that are teaching all the plainclothes cops.
Then again, it’s no surprise you want us disarmed so you’d probably be thinking this way.
If you want to point out what parts of his training are “fantasy,” please, feel free to specify which parts, and tell us why they would not work.
Who needs Chuck Norris facts, when you have Gabe Suarez facts!
When Jeff Cooper went to bed, he wore Gabe Suarez pajamas.
Further reinforcing my decision to spend my training dollars on other instructors who exhibit more common sense and better decision-making in their personal and professional lives.
Again, Suarez offers nothing positive that you can’t get at any one of a host of other nationally known schools.
Apparently he does offer bad habits that may well get you sued or imprisoned. For what? For that tiniest millisecond or two that you think you’re faster with your finger “on the trigger” as opposed to on the index button?
And his “trick” of standing downrange? Yeah, “either your professional enough to handle your gun or not”, right?
Where have we heard that before?
Does the name Lee Paige ring a bell?
I’ll give you another hint: The DEA agent who said he was the only one ‘profeshunal enuf’ to handle that Glock Foe-Tay. BANG!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeGD7r6s-zU
John
I’m not sure why there’s no “reply” option to yours Jade but here’s the sticking point.
I didn’t deny that training was the only thing that LEO and military units do, of course they must be engaged in logistics, physical fitness, Training and Evaluation, because they have to sustain themselves as one fighting unit. There’s also a definite physical requirement because they are also pro-active in their actions – they are chasing down threats through any sort of environment, rain or shine. I don’t think peaceable armed private citizens are going to jump out of planes or swim 100 miles across a lake to hunt down Joe the Crackhead Dealer Who Recently Knocked Over A Bank.
For a private citizen, chasing down or seeking out threats is usually a bad idea, and probably a waste of time. Of course there is always a need to be physically fit, but not all of us can be near Olympic athletes because some of us simply don’t have the genes or the time. But, there is nothing wrong with being physically fit as it leads to a better quality of life and also allows you to survive the fight easily. Mental fitness is a whole another story, and then again you still have bad apples in the LEO and military units (ie the twisted thrill killers in Afghanistan, David Codrea’s Only Ones series).
From what I see, Suarez, Magpul, and the other major companies out there are trying to develop a methodology suited for private civilians or unsupported individuals. Whatever works for LEOs and military units isn’t going to work for civilians because of the types of environments and situation each category may be facing.
I’m still waiting for your “fantasy” evidence.
They still HAVE to train for various scenarios because seeking out all kinds of threats is what they’re supposed to do, but they can’t be everywhere at once, can they?
Sounds like his ego is writing checks his brain can’t cash.
Oh, please… So you guys can’t take a bit of attitude without using it as an attempt to justify your preconceived notions? Man up already. Here’s an idea… Take the course and find out for yourself. If you want to provide a detailed critique, by all means do so. In case you haven’t noticed, there are all kinds of after action reports (dubbed AARs on the site) for all the courses. The techniques change over time as things are learned.
So instead of armchair quarterbacking something with which you only have passing understanding of, why not get a clue? If you’re wary of taking Gabe’s classes, take one of Roger’s point shooting progressions classes. Truly ahead of the curve, Roger really does study the bio mechanics involved in personal combat and takes things to an entirely new level.
Or Sonny P’s classes, a man who is an acknowledged Spetnaz operator with serious creeds. Or any of the other Suarez instructors.
Just because you don’t agree philosophically, doesn’t mean they’re not right. On the flip side, if you do take one and find deficiencies, I’m certain Gabe will take your critiques at face value, as long as they are serious critiques, not just a bunch of invective. If anything, I’m certain that they will look at your musings and, if they have merit, incorporate them. I know this first hand.
So, cut the crap and give it a try, already. What do you have to lose, other than your preconceived notions of how things should work?
Fair enough. I’ll sign up for one of his courses this year. But can we lose the macho posturing just a little? “Man-up” is a rather unfortunate turn of phrase for someone who’s calling a homophobic remark “a bit of attitude.”
“Homophobic?” You’re talking like a liberal now.
Yeah, responses considered ad hominem attacks rare usually met with some serious attitude in return. I’ve had my share. It’s the same kind of locker room razzing one gets when hanging out with a bunch of testosterone dripping caveman types, of which I proudly call myself one, albeit a bit more toned down than my brethren (dare I say Cro-magnon??) 😉
You may have valid points but the amount – and occasional level – of invective hurled around by various armchair commandoes almost necessitates a “shove it” response.
Heck, if you think THIS is bad, you should see some of the flame mail that got passed around on some of the international standards committees I used to be on. Granted one needed a thesaurus to keep up, but man… This is Childs play in comparison.
Decades back I used to be a mil spec weapons instructor, I trained domestic and off shore personnel. In an incidental way I trained folks after my discharge overseas.
Regardless of a person’s intent if they do a job well they earn a Rep and that can translate into money, look at the Olympics as one example.
If you ask me this is a pissing contest.
I do not know Suarez or his team but I know they have two goals financial success and imparting skills/wisdom. No one is being forced to attend or pay for the privilege. As to his students attitudes I would refer you to Hennery The Fifth and the Bard’s line about “No King ever being outfitted with men, all unspotted.”
Being an instructor is not an easy task.
It’s time to take a chill pill
I think Suarez is a great trainer. But, he may need to relax a little. I have to admit though “fagsaboutguns” is prettty funny.
guess you could “thank” the 700 club for his improved behavior lol