According to the photo caption on this Reuters image at dailymail.co.uk., “Federal investigation- An FBI tactical team patrols outside the Brookfield Square mall in Brookfield, Wisconsin, after the shooting at the Azana Spa.” Who called the feds? Since when do they deploy an armored personell carrier to a town of 40k west of Milwaukee? I mean, sure, the cops are running around securing the scene with ARs. And yes, the responding SWAT teams look like soldiers and all. There was also a report of an IED (that turned out to be a propane tank someone left lying around) to queue the standard ATF / FBI power grab. But am I the only one uncomfortable with the fact that Uncle Sam’s MRAP was cruising around town before the incident was ID’ed as a terrorist attack (which it wasn’t)?
There is no paramilitarization of police, you guys are just fear mongering. There was a man who did some bad stuff with a GUN! Thank god our brave law enforcers have an armoured vehicle to drive around it!
No militarization. Right. ‘Cause this is the way FBI agents roll.
Apparently I wasn’t sarcastic enough. Or you’re being uber-meta…
“Open Carry” is a good counter-measure to the Government’s desire to get us all used to seeing troops on every corner, “lock-downs” of the sheepfold, etc..
That’s what I keep thinking. It the old frog in boiling water approach. They just gradually turn up the heat, and we just slowly adjust to the temp. until we are dead.
I’d be concerned if this wasn’t in the midst of an active shooter situation. As it stands, there’s lots of concerns about terrorist attacks such as what happened in Mumbai, so there’s the very real possibility that it’s could be used as a way to draw first responders into an area.
When the FBIs local tactical units start pulling over people for traffic infractions I’ll start to panic. Until then, I have no problem with FBI tactical units providing support in the midst of shooting events like this.
I think they (the authorities) knew from the get go it was a bad relationship gone wrong, not a possible terrorist attack. So for me, this is just another reason I hate the Militarization of Law Enforcement!
Personally, I will wait on President Obama’s call as to whether or not it was a terrorist attack, after the investigation, of course.
Even the Army does not use an APC to respond to a shooting.
By the time men in armored Humvees are pulling people over it will officially be a police state.
Glad to see that the conditioning is working on you TCBA Joe! By the time tactical units are pulling people over for traffic stops, you will be happy about that too. All you need is a little more propaganda from the MSM and you will be a good citizen.
Shee-it. I want one of those for rolling around the bay area freeways.
I’d feel a lot better about going to my evening martial arts classes in Oakland if I drove one of those. Only if it came with a government credit card to pay the ridiculous fuel bills, though.
‘Cuz it dangerous in Da Hills. It almost as scary as da ‘Bu yo…
When I go to work I use all personal safety equipment proper for the job. I want to go home with all my fingers still attached and the ears still able to hear.
I see no reason LEO, or anybody else who may encounter an armed threat from using all that is available so they will go home without holes in their bodies.
If they really wanted to maximize their chances of going home with no additional holes in their bodies, then they should have opted for a desk job. There’s plenty of government jobs that don’t involve any physical risk worse than getting a paper cut that have the same pension and health care benefits.
I’m sorry but that’s total bullshit. They chose to be FBI agents, not to be soft/easy targets. If I asked you or anyone here to go get a guy in that building who definitely has a gun and already shot some people, you mean to tell me you wouldn’t want to be armed to the teeth and decked out in body armor.
There’s risk and there’s unnecessary risk. If you want these guys to chase baddies with nothing but a t-shirt so can feel better about the perceived-or-not militarization of the police, you need to put yourself in their shoes for once.
And let it be known that I find most of your comments very insightful, but on this one I cry foul.
So that means that anyone who points a fork at me can be shot for threatening murder?
Proportional response has precisely zippo to do with rolling out an APC in a city for a lone gunman. I don’t give two good flyins whose shoes you wear, an APC for a lone gunman is 12 miles over the top. Sniper in a tower after all else has failed? Sure. One dude who did some bad stuff? WTF…
When your kid gets into a play yard scrap at grade school, do you use this same logic to justify tasing and a SWAT unit? I mean there are several of them and they are having a fight, it could be an insurrection…
They chose to be agents. When they made that choice, they knew that the job came with risks.
There is no such thing as “perfect safety.” Period. Crap happens. In some jobs, more crap happens than in other jobs. I’ve been in jobs where there was significant risk of severe physical injury or death, at a greater rate of death per 100K participants than deaths on the job in law enforcement. The government would have loved to stipulate all manner of safety equipment that would have made the job theoretically “safer,” but at incredible expense and waste of time. I prefer to use my head over quite a lot of the modern safety equipment.
I utterly fail to see how this absurd vehicle was going to do anything to increase agent safety in this situation. It’s just another toy they’re parading around on the taxpayer’s dime.
I should clarify that I was referring to their use of body armor, combat vests, and AR-15s, not their use of the APC.
@16V if you read my post I said guy with a gun who had already show no discretion in his willingness to use it, not playground scuffle. I think the two situations are different enough that anyone could discern the difference in threat levels and warranted response.
If you really want someone to blame, its whoever authorized the cash to pay for said APC, whether it’s the bureau head or some congressman.
Please spare me the government BS! Being a police officer does NOT make the top ten most dangerous jobs. Why are they, and their defenders, so concerned about “going home in the evening” when they could care less if any of us do?
So far there isn’t a peep about the Tea Party or vague references to
a militia group. CNN is also reporting that the President was specifically
told this has nothing to do with terrorism. Since the Feds got involved
so quick I’m guessing there’s a bit more than is being reported.
The Tea Party? Is that even still around?
The perp is black, not white or a Muslim, thus terrorism can be ruled out immediately. I mean it’s only natural and logical, right?
I find it interesting that anti’s talk about not wanting “battlefield weapons” and what not on American streets, yet have no issue with the government agencies, at any level, having “battlefield weapons” and equipment (and then some!) on American streets.
That’s because we can always trust government employees silly. Unlike everyone else, government employees do not suffer from any failings like greed, laziness, incompetence, corruption, apathy, etc.
That’s because “their guy” is holding the whip right now.
Remember all the shrieking and yelling about Bush’s killing of innocents by drone strikes from 2003 to 2008?
Obama has ordered more hits from a drone than Bush ever did. Obama has killed US citizens without arrest, charges, trial or judicial review with drones. And the usual noisemakers on this topic are totally silent…
Just like when Clinton was in, it’s A-OK as long as “other” things are getting funded.
that is 100% true.
Its one of the many ironies of “enlightened liberals” (which would make a real liberal vomit).
It sure is intoxicating and hypnotizing when your own is in office though, even though he is just as much of a jackbooted tyrant.
Say for the likes of Naomi Wolf, liberals remain largely silent.
I used to live and work in Brookfield, WI. There’s some serious affluence there. They can easily afford that sort of equipment in Waukesha County. And, of course they look for any opportunity to exercise it. Also, there was an IED reported planted in the spa.
IED? Someone left their empty propane tank outside the store. More fear-mongering. H.L. Mencken had it right:
“The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary.”
Good to see you fell for it.
Give the boys some toys and they will want to play with them.
I wouldn’t be quick to believe anything in the Daily Mail, photo caption-wise. A couple years ago a high school in GA had a “History Day” program where the subject was Reconstruction. a couple of students dressed in KKK robes. It caused a bit of a fuss. Somehow it ended up in the UK’s Daily Mail. The file photo the article provided was of a Klan rally from back in the day, burning crosses and everything, the caption stated it was at the high school. I would trust a Daily Mail file photo caption less than a NYT editorial, lest it fuel preconceived notions. Fact check, verify, all that good stuff.
They do two things well – sensationalize and search engine rankings. One good thing I can say about them, is that they continue to provide links to their sources (here and here), unlike some of the other rags that just repost news as their own.
I’m surprised none of our UK readers have been by to tell us what they really think about it.
I think you mean “cue”, not “queue.”
The new toy looks better than the black suv’s. Remember big Bro’s watching.
People are already calling for more gun control… Other sites have told me that he was a Democrat (signed a petition to recall the Republican Governor), that he used a handgun, and that he had a restraining order against him that either lasts 4 years, or has been in effect the last 4 years, that he turned over all his weapons to the sheriffs office too.
So this could have never happened if we enforced current laws. The sheriff should have searched his house, and the police should have enforced the restraining order.
I think because of these facts this will be swept under the carpet soon, at least in every place but where it happened.
If we can’t even enforce the laws we have, why do we keep adding more?
“If we can’t even enforce the laws we have, why do we keep adding more?”
Do you really have to ask that question?
with chicago,detroit,LA and DC’s crime rate, they will be on the street 24/7 365. this is utterly uncalled for federal incursion into local jurisdiction.
i was there shopping & checking out the scene before i left. they were not patrolling. news is reporting that they were asked by the brookfield police to help assist. in an instance like this and with a reported shooter’s wearabouts unknown; the more help the better. everyone calm down and realize no one is taking over your neighborhood..
Because a little incursion is just the same as no incursion at all. Despite 2000 years of history, this will somehow magically not escalate. Got it…
incursion by the federal government? if the local police ask for help i dont see where there is incursion. i think we all should be more worried about the type of person who commits this act of violence..such as the man who killed these innocent people today.
History has proven beyond any doubt that the “camel’s nose” and “slippery slope” are not things of the imagination, they are merely statements of human nature.
We told you in the 70s that SWAT and this ‘no-knock’ nonsense would spread until it was used for minor weed busts, and it has. We told you the coddling the police would get many innocents killed, and it has. You were warned of the inherent evils of stock markets, corporations, and central banking for 500+ years and still you believe the propaganda about the “value” of tulip bulbs and beanie babies.
Smedley Butler warned you that War Is a Racket and you ignored him. Eisenhower made one of the most important Presidential exit speeches of all time, warning of the dangers of the ‘military industrial complex’ and that we’d end up exactly where we are, if people with your lack of judgement got to make the calls. And here we are.
So great. Enjoy that your kid is wearing a badge to get into his/her school. Revel in the fact that there is an actual cop on premises to arrest them and brand them for life for getting into a fight, like kids are supposed to do. Let alone if they do half the things we all did, and came out fine on the other end.
^+100000000
Dyspeptic Gunsmith says:
“If they really wanted to maximize their chances of going home with no additional holes in their bodies, , ,”
cute
I agree that a response by the Feds for this is out of their jurisdiction unless someone associated with the business is on a terrorist watch list. Perhaps the Feds are imagining trouble before the election? Then again, perhaps it is part of the process of getting the public used to seeing the Feds, military, and local po-po working more closely together in the open on domestic localized police security issues. Perhaps in 5-10 years we’ll get to see an armored car on many American city street corners monitoring everyone’s Internet activity and black garbed storm troopers kicking in your front door if we go to forbidden web sites.
not black. That is so 1980s.
Theyll be dressed in OD green, ACU, or Multicam 😀
You’re probably right. I was thinking Nazi Storm Trooper dress which the feds will never do to avoid bad PR so they’ll dress the troops differently. Perhaps they’ll have the goon squads dress in pink camo to show support for breast cancer research while they shoot our dogs and taser us.
look at the bright side: tyrants and criminals both seem to have a taste for Hugo Boss. It makes them easily recognizable. Ive never seen more Hugo Boss suits than when I walked around Wall Street and Manhattan.
Jackboots are out too. Tan, desert boots are in 😀
Let those fools in uniform and gear march to their losing battle…
With all due respect, the entire US is within Federal jurisdiction. It’s kind of self-defining that way. As others have mentioned, the FBI occupies the tier above state law enforcement. If the state or local authorities thought the case could have ramifications beyond a solo deranged shooter, they could (and should) loop in the FBI. Your line of thought is firmly in tinfoil hat territory, IMHO.
All that said, the presence of the APC is perplexing. How did that just happen to be handy for an incident in freaking Wisconsin, of all places?
With all due respect, not exactly. Were you to actually read The Constitution and BoR, you would know that is NOT exactly the case according to the FF.
That you don’t know that there are APCs all over our nation to be used for the most egregiously ridiculous of scenarios tells that you have no clue what has been going on for the last 10+ years. And that you’ll happily live in 1984-land because it all makes sense and will make you feel safer.
Agreed.
Unfortunately, there are more than just APCs spread around America. I could see an FBI APC located in the bigger cities (Chicago, NYC, LA, etc) and some other key strategic areas. Yet, Brookfield and Milwaukee don’t fit those areas.
The FF separated and limited powers among and between:
— federal, state, and local governments (county too I believe)
— civilian militia, army, navy
— executive, legislative, and judicial branches
— etc.
16v, I’m going to call you out on your debate technique as being unconstructive and one notch shy of an ad hominem attack. The use of assertions regarding my prior actions or my state of mind, both of which are unknowable to you in this forum, is just plain lazy. I’ve read many of your other comments, so I know you can do better. Please bring your A game next time.
My comment regarding the FBI’s jurisdiction seemed uncontroversial to me. Their jurisdiction is law enforcement within the US, or in certain instances, non-US locales where crimes have been committed against US interests. I’m pretty sure that includes Wisconsin. Is anyone asserting that the FBI’s jurisdiction does NOT include all US states, districts, and territories?
That you don’t know that there are APCs all over our nation to be used for the most egregiously ridiculous of scenarios tells that you have no clue what has been going on for the last 10+ years. And that you’ll happily live in 1984-land because it all makes sense and will make you feel safer.
I’m not sure why you felt the need to phrase this in insulting terms. Perhaps I insulted your parentage or conduct on some occasion that I have since forgotten?
In any case, I’m well aware of the bizarre phenomenon of APC sales to state/local LEOs. It’s a perfect example of our runaway military-industrial complex, or more specifically, the makers of military equipment panicking that their growth markets of Iraq and Afghanistan are fading fast. Between the corrupting influx of DHS grant money and a marketing push by mil spec vehicle makers, our tax dollars are being squandered on ridiculous hardware.
What I was wondering, and continue to wonder, is why an FBI armored vehicle was close enough to this town I’d never heard of to deploy while the crisis was still fresh? I find that mystery just as worrying as the proliferation of SWAT APCs.
“My comment regarding the FBI’s jurisdiction seemed uncontroversial to me. Their jurisdiction is law enforcement within the US”
Alphageek,
As I understand it, while the FBI’s jurisdiction might be national in a geographic description, I don’t think they are supposed to have carte blanc access to getting involved in many specific types of criminal/investigative work that is the jurisdiction of local and state police, and that of other federal departments.
AlphaGeek,
I wasn’t going for an ad hominem so if you took it that way that wasn’t the intent. But I do make assumptions from facts in evidence. It’s much akin to when someone starts talking about “St. Ronnie” and how “great” he was for the country – when the facts are that he doubled the national debt, grew the deficit by leaps and bounds, took away our auto guns, after his tax cut that pushed unemployment over 10% he then raised taxes over 10 times ( or 15 depending on how you count), gave amnesty to 3 million illegals, grew the size and scope of government at an Obamian rate, not to mention his gun bans as gov of Cal, or Iran/Contra, or…
So tossing out a blanket statement “All of the US is federal jurisdiction” sets in motion that same mental train. I do really understand, kids aren’t taught civics anymore, but this stuff is supposed to be Constitution 101 and to me it’s right up there with asserting our planet to be 6000 years old. There are subtleties and nuances to The Constitution, but the proscribed limits on Federal power over the States have been just kicked to the curb especially over the last 40-50 years. Sort of like that whole “shall not be infringed” or “only Congress has the power to declare war” thingys.
But anyway back to the question, why was that FBI vehicle within a stone’s throw? Well, there is an FBI field office in Milwaukee. How did it get deployed so quickly? Coincidence? Entirely possible and much weirder stuff has happened. But, until there is a Federal crime, they have no business being there. None.
Could it also have been one of the “heroic anti-terrorism” propaganda ploys gone sideways? Possible too. We already know that the Feebs get an insider into groups of stupid kids that are not even a threat to themselves, then the insider pumps them up to doing things that never would have gone past the coffee-haus-conspiracy were it not for our “heroic” fed giving them guns, money, and pushing for ‘action’. Then the anti-terror “sting” happens and golly gosh there’s terruhrists evywhar. Been doing this one since the 60s – they are pretty good at it.
“Your line of thought is firmly in tinfoil hat territory, IMHO.”
AlphaGeek,
No disrespect taken. IMO, you misunderstand the ideal (not the current and corrupted modern ideal) limits of the powers and limits of federal government, state, and locals not to over-reach the scope of their respective authorities. Today, FBI armored cars in Milwaukee Wisconsin responding to a shooting at a salon and what USG forces will next year bring? The sheeple are being conditioned to accept the wolves circling the gates closer and closer in ever greater numbers. IMO, your line of thought is very much in line with naive wishing.
+one googleplex. maybe two…
The FBI originally were unarmed. They were investigators, not soldiers. My how times have indeed changed.
Getting the public acclimatized to the police state? Exactly what the DHS/TSA roadblocks are meant to do. Just as unconstitutional as a drunk checkpoint, but once they accept that it is “the way things are to git them thar terrahrists” the honey-boo-boo crowd will happily sanction it.
I’m curious about those DHS/TSA roadblocks. I’ve never seen one and have only heard about them from Alex Jones listeners.
I have been in sobriety checkpoints. I worked a lot of night shifts and my travel times seemed to coincide with their operations.
I’ve heard of Alex Jones, but I’ve never actually listened to him.
The TSA checkpoints happened in TN, easy google search yielding thousands of results from vetted sources. Sobriety checkpoints are as non-Con as one can get, but The Supremes sanctioned it, despite the blatant 4th A violation, so it goes on….
Surface mass transite checkpoints:
http://articles.latimes.com/2011/dec/20/nation/la-na-terror-checkpoints-20111220
TSA in on truck checks at weigh stations in TN:
http://www.newschannel5.com/story/15725035/officials-claim-tennessee-becomes-first-state-to-deploy-vipr-statewide
and those are the checkpoints themselves.
this is not even mentioning the backscatter scanners…or the drones and bona fide reconnaissance aircraft.
Calling that truck a “tank” is just as hyperbolic as calling a semi-automatic AR an “assault weapon”.
It’s armored, weighs several times more than a car, isn’t for transporting goods, and has armed soldiers inside. I see the .50 is missing but I’m sure it’s back at the shop.
Tank is an appropriate term for it, even without a 105mm on the front.
Perhaps “armored personnel carrier” is the term you’re looking for. The absence of external weaponry would seem to be a critical distinction between that truck and a tank.
I’ve changed the text to “MRAP.”
If the local PD didn’t have much information at first, but one of the things they knew was that there was a bomb somewhere, close to what could be termed a domestic terrorist attack recently (Sikh temple), then it’s not unreasonable to think it might be another domestic terrorist attack.
If they thought it might be another domestic terrorist attack, then it’s not necessarily unreasonable to call the FBI (I’m not saying if they were overreacting to call it terrorism in the first place) for help. If the FBI gets the call that there is a terrorist attack going on, it’s not necessarily unreasonable for them to roll out the heavy gear. That’s what it’s for.
If the FBI was told that it wasn’t a terrorist attack, and they chose to roll out the heavy gear and go patrolling in it, then that’s not reasonable. It’s ridiculous. If the FBI was told that it was a terrorist attack, and rolled out the heavy gear, and then put it away as soon as they were told that the lone shooter had been found dead and it in fact did not look like a terrorist attack, then that is not unreasonable.
If the media chose to use a dramatic photo and get the facts completely wrong, then that is completely unreasonable, ridiculous, and par for the course. It’s quite possible the FBI was told terrorists before the media was told anything.
Where I work, the heavy stuff rolls out when it’s needed and put away as soon as the call is over. Doesn’t just roll around town to look cool or scary.
What are the chances we’ll ever know?
The chances of that are slim at best. And in my opinion, that’s almost as bad as the rest of this story. At the federal level, accountability and transparency are a joke, whether they do right or wrong.
Agreed.
Apparently not enough folks here know that the UK’s Daily Mail is about as reliable as our Weekly World News when it comes to reporting.
Your not being unreasonable, I feel the same way and the fact that they can kill us with immunity doesn’t make it any better, I’m honestly more worried about being killed by Barney Fife than I am by a criminal, at least with a criminal I can protect myself.
But will it fit through a drive-through?
I was SB on the Illinois Tollway as these (what can I call them without having them come knocking at my door?) nitwits were heading NB, lights and sirens flashing only 45 minutes behind the times. Vehicles dark gray in color, about the same shade that fought against my father in law and uncle. What was my portion of the gas bill? See also the nitwit sheriff lying to the press.
http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3694913175605954860&postID=5004055192145024619
http://www.crimefilenews.com/2012/10/pathetic-tv-news-coverage-of-brookfield.html
Its a shame that my abridged constitutions rights no longer keep me on an even footing with the .gov, firepower wise.
If I had a few AT-4s or an RPG or another type of anti armor device, things like this wouldn’t worry me nearly as much.
But the gun grabbers would say what sane person would ever need to own an anti-tank device?
Exactly as you said. I would worry less about a tyranical government if average citizens possessed such tools.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2007/10/01/GR2007100102020.html
if armor is a concern for a “foreign invasion” scenario…It worked countless times before.
Dont be surprised if you see more MRAPs in the hands of law enforcement. The drawdown from the iraq and afghan wars will leave thousands of these vehicles without a use.
Im going to guess that it is a Oshkosh Alpha MRAP, though im not 100% sure. Just a educated guess from experience.