Police Use of Even Less Lethal Weapons is Too Much for Some Community Activists

less lethal police weapons

A protestor faces off with two police officers using less-lethal ammunition in their weapons. (AP Photo/John Minchillo)

While police consider tactical communication as one way to de-escalate a situation, they also view use of force and less-lethal weapons, such as Tasers, pepper spray and bean-bag rounds, as options. They tend to view it as a continuum of recourse and outcomes, with deadly force as the worst-case scenario.

“If I walk into a level 10 (situation) and I’m able to turn it down to a level five, that’s de-escalation,” Sheriff’s Department training Sgt. Michael Pepin said recently.

For instance, if deputies were to respond to a report of someone armed with a piece of glass, they wouldn’t be able to go hands-on, Pepin said. One de-escalation alternative: pepper spray, he said.

Some community members disagree.

“The problem is they equate de-escalation with non-lethal,” said Yusef Miller of the Racial Justice Coalition San Diego.

He believes less-lethal options, such as firing pepper balls and unleashing police dogs, actually escalate situations, triggering the flight-or-fight response of the person subjected to the force.

Police officials said force is unavoidable in some situations. When there’s an imminent threat, time is not on their side. In a nod to the scrutiny police face in the age of cellphones and calls for police reform, some officials said it’s much easier to “Monday morning quarterback” than to deal with a threat in the moment.

– David Hernandez in Many say de-escalation is the way to reduce police-involved shootings, but what does it look like?

comments

  1. avatar Prndll says:

    These are NOT protesters and this is NOT a protest.

    This is war against the police. ANYONE opening aggressive towards law enforcement (even politicians) will be seen as the enemy. The one thing that has never changed is that if you make yourself a threat to any cop, you run the risk of getting shot. Your race becomes irrelevant.

    1. avatar Paul says:

      We don’t have less lethal. – Kyle Rittenhouse

    2. avatar WARFAB says:

      This ‘war’ they’re attempting to wage is against far more than just the police.

    3. avatar Craig in IA says:

      “Police officials said force is unavoidable in some situations.”

      Actually, in the types of situations encountered where there is looting and rioting, force is the only option. Fast, overwhelming and with no concern as to the gender, race or age of those committing the crimes. Either we’re serious about law and order for everyone or we’re not. I can’t see any need for “non lethal” options used against people who are throwing bricks, molotov cocktails and using bats and other clubs. Restore what ever order there was before the rioting as fast and directly as possible and don’t punish those not participating by locking them down as well.

      1. avatar Umm . . . says:

        Craig in IA,
        Yes, absolutely this. This is why we need a Riot Act.

  2. avatar TheUnspoken says:

    “the problem is they equate protesting for justice with rioting, looting, and verbal and physical assault on anyone in their path. They react violently and emotionally without consideration for the facts, since they declare any use of force against a black person by law enforcement as racism as a whole, regardless of the details of that event or whether the supposed victim may have provoked or required the action…”
    –What someone could have said instead

  3. avatar No one of Consequence says:

    Okay, fine. Let’s go back to having nothing between harsh language and 115 grain hollowpoints.

    That way there’s no ambiguity. Cop says to stop doing X; nutball / protestor / arsonist / criminal / whatever keeps doing X; cop shoots n/p/a/c/w until he/she/* stops doing X.

    Works for me. But then I already know if a cop says stop doing X, the time and place to argue isn’t right there and then.

  4. avatar Jeff says:

    Removing less lethal weapons simply quickens the resort to lethal weapons. What do these morons think would happen when police cannot use less lethal weapons? They are putting police in a dammed if you do and dammed if you do not situation.

    1. avatar DrewR says:

      I think that’s the point, they’re setting up a situation where they can always claim that they are right and that the police are wrong, so that they can continue claiming oppression and rioting as long as they want. This fight was lost as soon as the first actual rioters were allowed to break the law without consequences.

      1. avatar Dude says:

        “This fight was lost as soon as the first actual rioters were allowed to break the law without consequences.”

        Yep. They wanted to set a precedent so that the rest of the country would have “permission” to riot.

        1. avatar Darkman says:

          As Defund the Police is implemented the Consequences are coming to light. Some citizens are learning the hard way.
          Intruder with knife, boy being held: No Portland police response for 1 hour, 36 minutes – oregonlive.com
          https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/09/intruder-with-knife-boy-being-held-no-portland-police-response-for-1-hour-36-minutes.html

    2. avatar Julio says:

      And that’s the real point here. Actually escalate violence (and/or demoralizing the police by tying up their options) so they can continue to call for the defunding or disestablishment of police overall in order to protect their criminal (and political) element.

    3. avatar Southern Cross says:

      And less than lethal weapons are frequently used in applications where they used to encourage confessions or for retribution attacks. In these cases it is the officer(s) using them this way are at fault and the senior officers for allowing it to happen.

      But given a choice between shot, tased, pepper sprayed, or bean-bagged, I’ll take all but the first. However, I am unlikely to be in such a situation any way.

    4. avatar Ed Schrade says:

      Looking at the above photo, a few light armor pierceing rounds thru the dumpster into fat boy would cure this problem quickly. What would Andrew Jackson do ?

    5. avatar Ben says:

      To make this arguement even more absurd cops often put themselves in greater danger using less lethal weapons while trying to keep from killing the perp.

  5. avatar Ron says:

    “Protests”…

    As was stated here quite elegantly, the media would describe the battle of Stalingrad as a “mostly peaceful” border dispute.

    Thanks for that line, by the way, I’ve used it many times since that article.

  6. avatar Taste That Boot Leather! says:

    I see all the usual 🥾 👅 are out en mass this morning, tripping all over themselves to decree their unquestioned obedience to every idiot with a badge.

    1. avatar Julio says:

      Sure—okay…please call 1-800-dialacrackhead next time you need help. Don’t bother the 911 emergency folks.

      1. avatar Taste That Boot Leather! says:

        Really get into the cracks of those soles, Julio, you unabashed 🥾 👅…

      2. avatar The Crimson Pirate says:

        I’ve had to dial 911 several times in my life. When it was for an ambulance it was helpful. When it was for cops, it was actually worse than if I had just handled things myself. Getting the cops to do their job was difficult at best.

        The cops are the ones that have been fining and arresting people for going to church and opening their business. The cops are also the ones letting communist revolutionaries burn, loot, and murder. It has been elegantly put as “You can’t open your business but they can burn your business.” and the cops are the ones enforcing both ends of that.

        When we talk about “the government” taking our guns, who do you think they will send? Pelosi and Schumer aren’t going to kick down your damn door.

        The cops are not our friends and the best thing they can do right now is get out of ordinary people’s way.

        On the topics of the linked article

        Given the option, when the next dem president bans something and I don’t turn it in, and the cops come to take it, I would much prefer to be tased, pepper sprayed, or shot with bean bag than with a live round.

        Of course there is racial bias in policing. Because there is racial bias in committing crime. If black people want to have fewer police interactions then the way to accomplish that is for black people to stop committing more than 50% of the violent crime.

        1. avatar Dude says:

          “Of course there is racial bias in policing. Because there is racial bias in committing crime”

          Let’s not forget that police and the justice system is sexist as well. I read somewhere that there are more men (like A LOT more) than women in prison. Using leftist logic, that’s verifiable proof of sexism, right? I’m sure people will be marching for justice any second now as soon as they find out. Spread the word…

        2. avatar Prndll says:

          “The cops are the ones that have been fining and arresting people for going to church and opening their business. The cops are also the ones letting communist revolutionaries burn, loot, and murder. It has been elegantly put as “You can’t open your business but they can burn your business.” and the cops are the ones enforcing both ends of that.”

          That IS their job. It is not right but it IS their job. Your not considering that is is city leaders (normally leftist liberals) that create these rules for LEO to follow and enforce. On BOTH sides of the moral debate. It actually is the cops that actually feel some sense of duty to uphold their oath to constitutional responsibility and obligation to the community that refuse to just stand by. This is why so many cops are leaving the profession.

          Houston’s police chief would be held to account if it were not for Houston’s mayor.

          Its the same thing in every place in this country where it is the biggest issue. It starts with city leadership and elected officials.

        3. avatar Debbie W. says:

          Crimsom and Clover…You failed to describe what prompted you to call the police. With no details I could not determine if you had a legitimate complaint against the police.. Remember you called the police they did not call you. Although there are some who should not be police they do not account for all therefore I am not going to join anyone in broad brushing Law Enforcement.

          Furthermore your paranoia about the police doing the dirty work for anti Gun Zealots also has issues. Gun Control Laws apply to the police just like they apply to everyone else. Retired police discovered the knee jerk gun control they were suckered into supporting backfired when they tried to purchase a firearm in their Gun Control State. Like everyone else they were subjected to a background check, mag capacity, waiting period, etc. All their former law enforcement clout disappeared and they got a taste of the real world of Gun Control. Once those in law enforcement heard about the tentacles of Gun Control effecting them most back pedaled big time. Most LE have no issues with their fellow law abiding citizens owning firearms, etc.

          Obviously Americans are no going to accept punks running around bullying, looting and burning. They also will not accept Jack Booted Thugs doing the dirty work of a bunch of tyrannical Gun Control Zealots whose despicable Gun Control Agenda is rooted in racism and genocide.

          TRUMP/PENCE 2020.

        4. avatar Jason says:

          “Once those in law enforcement heard about the tentacles of Gun Control effecting them most back pedaled big time. Most LE have no issues with their fellow law abiding citizens owning firearms, etc.”

          I’m thinking you haven’t noticed that these two sentences are actually self contradictory?

        5. avatar Umm . . . says:

          The Crimson Pirate is right, and the Nuremberg Defense is wrong. Some may argue that the circumstances are different, and they are: unlike any police department, Nazi Germany had CONSCRIPTION. Nobody was ever shot for refusing to join LAPD.

          Do I believe “ACAB”, or that the country would be a better place if all POTG refused to join law enforcement? Absolutely not.

          Would it be better if no POTG signed on to enforce the unconstitutional laws of the farthest-left cities in the farthest-left states? Hell yes!

    2. avatar ChoseDeath says:

      I’ll bet you’ve got a dick like a matchstick and enough water in your head to fill a kiddy pool.

      1. avatar Taste That Boot Leather! says:

        Whatever. At least I’m not an unabashed 🥾 👅 like you. Pussies like you are the first to surrender, comply and narc on the real patriots!

      2. avatar Taste That Boot Leather! says:

        Whatever. At least I’m not an unabashed 🥾 👅 like you. You and your ilk will be the first to surrender, comply and narc on the real patriots!

      3. avatar Tricky Dicky says:

        Why do people always think that having a small dick is an issue? I have a small dick and I am perfectly comfortable with it and very happy.

        It’s the one I was born with and have always had.
        I’ve used it all my life.
        I learned with it.
        I trained and practiced with it. A lot.
        I’ve used it in the performance of it’s duty. A lot.
        I’ve never left a woman unsatisfied.
        My life mate is small, so it fits her well. She is quite happy with it.
        I have a professional career, make a decent income, drive as nice a car as I want to, and I don’t feel any need to compensate for something that works just fine for me.

        I think you big dick guys are projecting with all your dick criticism. Or maybe you just like to think about other people’s dicks.

        1. avatar john hussey says:

          You win the comment award for today!

        2. avatar possum says:

          Dicks sold two sets of golf clubs last month

  7. avatar Lunknard says:

    Here’s an idea:

    Let’s build a brand new town and arm the local police with cotton candy and colorful cartoon stickers. To incent people to move there, we’ll offer ridiculously cheap property and no property taxes. Of course, no firearms allowed, since that would cause people to be violent.

    Then, we monitor the town to analyze how safe and prosperous it becomes.

    1. avatar The Truth About Black And White says:

      Statically if you only let in whites and asians it will be fine. You will have a minimum amount of crime and it will be non violent. If you let in blacks and hispanics it will go to hell in a handbasket, with both violent and non violent crime.

      1. avatar Debbie W. says:

        The truth about a white bigot…That’s right clown let’s have the KKK running the show and Asians laundering their sheets. How about burning crosses made from Gummy Bears too? Your content of character comes from your head being stuck in your behind. When decent people see something that looks like your butt spew they flush.

      2. avatar Lunknard says:

        TTABAW,

        Not sure if you were intending sarcasm. That being said, you make it abundantly clear the the selective deployment of statistics without context, analysis, and understanding can lead to laughably erroneous, sad, and even dangerous conclusions. Much like Black Lives Matters is doing today.

  8. avatar El Vagabondo says:

    I like the idea of using high pressure hoses and hook them up to trucks that empty septic tanks and porta- potties. A douse of that will convince these so called protestors to stay home and play video games instead. When you challenge and disobey a policeman’s orders you are breaking the law and deserve what you get. The place to settle disputes with the authorities is in the courtroom not the streets. But no, we want to burn the courtrooms down. How absurd? These morons should consider themselves lucky that the police force is opting to use less than lethal methods to quell their stupidly. And the truth of it all is they are not “Protestors” but RIOTERS and that’s how they should be treated.

    1. avatar Ragnar says:

      “A douse of that will convince these so called protestors to stay home and play video games instead.”

      Won’t work. Most of these miscreants come from cities where that is smell is so common, they don’t even notice it.

    2. avatar Southern Cross says:

      I’m surprised the water cannon isn’t used as much in the USA as it is (or used to be) in Europe.

      Bonus points for using freezing brine with a dose of CS powder.

  9. avatar American says:

    Police have to much power and control. They need to be held accountable. And rioters and looters should be allowed to be repelled with any force necessarily. Fuck the unjust laws that are there to protect these lawless fools. Police and criminals are both the same. Neither are held accountable, the good lord is coming, God help us all who just want to live free or die trying.

    1. avatar Prndll says:

      If cops had too much power then we would not be seeing what we are. They would not allow themselves to get defunded. They would also not allow themselves to operate under control of any city leadership. Many are quiting. THAT is not what people with too much power do.

      1. avatar Paul says:

        I disagree, to some extent. Cops do have too much power in many situations. Not because they have guns, but because qualified immunity. If it’s wrong for you or for me to do something, like shoot a man in the back, then it should be wrong for a cop to shoot a man in the back.

        I don’t go with the idea that cops are evil, or that they are enemies, but cops need to be reigned in.

        Those protesters who are actually peaceful protesters have valid greviances against law enforcement.

        Rioters like we see in Portland have a right to be shot dead.

        1. avatar Prndll says:

          As if rioters don’t have “qualified immunity” these days. Far to many people (non law enforcement) have lost their lives to rioters. These people commit outright murder and get off so free no one even thinks twice. In fact, murderers are released from prison for fear of covid to be unleashed on society and YOU want cops to be restrained?

          The simple truth is that less than lethal force is the very definition of restraint.

          A civil society designated certain individuals with the responsibility to handle those that act in contradiction to law. This is a normal function of human advancement.

          If given a choice, I will side with the police instead of these rioters every single time and without blinking an eye.

    2. avatar drunkEODguy says:

      that’s why metro departments have quitting and early retirements enmass right now. They’re just tired of being judge Dredd and want to cool their heels. It totally isn’t because they’re hamstringed and apprehensive to do their job properly because it means that wastes of life like bootlick boy in the comments here will crawl out of his moms basement with a black bandana over his face and break and burn things with 500 other ACAB scum losers like him.

  10. avatar Red says:

    It isn’t the ammunition. It is the cops’ attitude. Back when I was growing up, even in bad situations, the bad guy was typically captured, not killed. Now the cops spew bullets at any excuse, making sure that the guy is at room temperature before claiming to try to resuscitate. “To serve and protect” is just so much propaganda. I avoid cops as much as humanly possible. They just view you as a stepping stone to their next promotion.

    1. avatar American says:

      I agree💯.

      They do whatever they want, with no consequences!

      1. avatar Prndll says:

        If that were the case we would not be talking about “less lethal” anything. The mere fact that this is even a thought in written article form with fact and authority as its basis indicates that there is plenty of ‘consequence’. Cops are forced in this direction.

    2. avatar Prndll says:

      I agree that ammunition is not at issue. I disagree that attitude is. If your not a threat then you are not likely to even get noticed. Much less get harmed.

    3. avatar Ted says:

      The issue is that people have gotten worse. People 40 years ago were taught values from a young age and required to work. Its a completely different world and cops are just trying to keep up.

      They are reactionary. When crime got more violent and more frequent, cops had to as well. Were not in a time that always allows for Officer Friendly.

      1. avatar Red says:

        “The issue is that people have gotten worse. People 40 years…”

        People have gotten worse in some ways, but you have Rose-Colored nostalgia glasses on if you think, as a whole, people are more violent. People are way more passive today, than 40 years ago.

        Also 40 years ago you had different cops, that all changed with Affirmative Action and 110 lbs cops (mostly women) who were told you shoot if you feel your life is threatened. Anyone over 150 lbs seems threatening to them, so blast away.

        1. avatar Adub says:

          BS. The problem is that 60 years ago cops could give criminals street justice and the legal system turned a blind eye. Criminals feared cops. You didn’t want to “resist arrest” or be beaten with batons. But thanks to gutless peacenik attorneys and activist judges, those days are over. You can’t discipline criminals like the animals they are. The worst you can do is lock them in a box. That’s no deterrent.

      2. avatar Paul says:

        You’re way off target with that 40 years ago thing. And, you’re playing into the gun control crowd’s nonsense. Crime has gone down, drastically, in the past 40 years. Look at FBI statistics – murder, rape, armed robbery, robbery, assault, pretty much everything has gone down. You are safer today than you were 40 years ago, full stop. Gun grabbers want you to believe that you are unsafe, so they have an excuse to take your guns.

    4. avatar rt66paul says:

      Not to mention the releasing of the insane onto the streets(Republican defunding of state mental institutions – thank you, Ronald Reagan). This has created an ever faster revolving door to our county jails.
      Where years ago, someone who could not care for himself(wino living rough) would be processed into jail and either had a dry out 4-5 months at the county farm, or was put in the mental hospital for about the same period. They also cleaned up addicts, and actually gave them some medicine to help them. The violent perps would be put in much longer with Thorazine bed rest.
      These days, in many parts of Ca, anyone who has been judged 5150(Involuntary psychiatric hold)gets a get out of jail free card for misdemeanors. Instead of dealing with them in jail, they dump them back on the public. Their victims get no justice.
      It would be cheaper to put them in a mental hospital setting than keep them in jail(the drugs make them compliant), it is cheaper still to dump them on the public.

      1. avatar Prndll says:

        That is primarily due to California’s liberal leadership. You should be looking to Pelosi for dealing with these things.

    5. avatar Dude says:

      “Back when I was growing up, even in bad situations, the bad guy was typically captured, not killed.”

      When did you grow up? The number is trending down over the last 50 or so years. Maybe you just didn’t hear about it back then?

  11. avatar Parnell says:

    Sure, let’s “reason” with the clown holding the Molotov Cocktail. He/she should be happy if they’re only pepper sprayed or bean bagged.

    1. avatar Paul says:

      I think there should be snipers on the roofs in Portland. Anyone lights a firecracker, molotov, IED, or commercial fireworks gets nailed, and left to lie there with his bomb until it blows up. Throw an accelerant at a building and pull out a lighter, torch, or whatever, same thing. No peaceful protest has stuff that go “boom” and/or burn rapidly.

  12. avatar former water walker says:

    The po-leece should be killin’ instead of chillin’…sure calmed down after a 17year old smoked some scum😃😎😏

  13. avatar DJ says:

    I see the point. Use lethal force on violent rioters.

    It’s a Marxists Revolution not a protest.

  14. avatar Optimistic Engineer says:

    I agree. This isn’t a protext. This is Maxist riots.

    $1 million bail.

    Riots make voters more conservative per a Princeton study. Hmmm…

    1. avatar Red says:

      Let’s shop studying the obvious, it’s an old maxim…conservatives are simply liberals who have been mugged.

      1. avatar Princeton's Slaveholding Presidents says:

        Let’s shop studying the obvious, it’s an old maxim…conservatives are simply liberals who have been mugged.

      2. avatar I Haz A Question says:

        …except those of us who were wired from birth as conservatives.

        1. avatar CanoeIt says:

          When I was a young boy I stuck my finger in a light socket and it was learning experience. The difference between liberals and conservatives tends to be the lesson learned. Liberals learn all light sockets are bad, conservatives learn not to stick thier finger in a light socket. Best way I can sum up my position.

        2. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          Not a bad analogy, Canoe.

  15. avatar Elmer Fudd says:

    There are police officers who do use excessive force. Often it is a consequence of poor training or abject stupidity. An example is Seargent Reister of the Portland Police bureau who shot a mentally disturbed individual with buckshot from a 12 gauge shotgun rather than less lethal beanbag rounds because he loaded the wrong ammunition. Standard procedure is that officers who are issued shotguns that are designated for less lethal ammunition are prohibited from carrying standard, more lethal ammunition to prevent such shootings. However; this cop carried buckshot with him as well as the beanbag ammo. This cop was also inadequately trained (actually not trained). To function properly, beanbag type ammunition must be fired from a range in excess of 30 feet to give the beanbag time to expand properly. This cop fired from such close range that the wadding was embedded in the subjects’ thigh!

    Police are sometimes to eager to use less lethal weapons as pain compliance weapons in situations where escalating to potentially lethal force is obviously not justified. An example is the Portland Police shooting an unarmed 12 year old girl in the ass with a less lethal beanbag round. The police excuse is that she was a very large 12 year old girl and the police were getting their asses kicked. The video shows that while she was a really big little girl, they had already taken her to the ground and were poised to handcuff her. The shotgun was used gratuitously just because she had pissed them off. Given that they shot her at contact range, I expect that she had some severe injury.

    IMHO, the biggest cause of excessive force is police paranoia. Every since President Clinton and the gun control lobby launched their crusade against “assault weapons” police have been conditioned to believe that they are outgunned by the criminals. There is allegedly a criminal armed with an UZI or an AK-47 hiding under every bed. The FBI data on killings of police officers refutes this propaganda, but many police believe it. Interestingly; the same journalists who pontificate about police violence continue to peddle the same propaganda about the police being outgunned.

    There is no solution to this problem. The lawlessness spawned by the BLM ANTIFA rioters and their journalistic enablers has spun completely out of control. It is far to late to educate the public and some police to debunk the propaganda. About the only option available to the police is to retire if they can or to disengage from their communities. Cops should be willing to simply not respond to incidents or walk away from situations that are likely to escalate to deadly force. One recent example of this disengagement is the Portland police taking well over an hour to respond to an incident where a home invader threatened a 12 year old boy with a knife. The boy had escaped and neighbors had subdued the home invader, but the police still didn’t respond. Eventually; the neighbors released the criminal. Ironically; the victims were Black and the perpetrator appeared to be White under his tattoos. These people should understand that expecting help from the police is White Privelige. It isn’t happening anymore. The police might continue to be a presence responding to low risk incidents, but when people are threatened by violent criminals, they will be on their own. I expect that the homicide rate in the US in 2021 will be at least double the 2019 homie rate. I wouldn’t be surprised if the homicide rate is ten times higher.

    The only positive aspect of this anarchy is that police will be extremely unlikely to actively investigate cases where citizens have decided to shoot, shovel, and shut up.

    1. avatar Manse Jolly says:

      Still reading your post but this jumped out first..

      “……Every since President Clinton and the gun control lobby launched their crusade against “assault weapons” police have been conditioned to believe that they are outgunned by the criminals….”

      Started in at least ‘1971-72ish’ That is the earliest I started hearing about the firearm gap. I distinctly remember nightly news reports interviewing high ranking police who said their men were outgunned.

      1. avatar Elmer Fudd says:

        Agreed.
        As Josh Sugarman of the violence policy institute wrote, the gun control lobby could and would fabricate and exploit mythological threats to alienate the police from gun owners.

        The first mythical threat was Teflon coated “cop killer” bullets that were allegedly designed to penetrate the Kevlar vests that were being adopted by police. This ammunition was developed by cops, for cops, and marketed almost exclusively to cops, but the gun control lobby didn’t allow the facts to impede their propaganda. The only real threat was publicizing the fact that police were starting to wear body armor which motivated some cop killers to intentionally aim for the head or other unarmored areas.

        The second mythological threat was “plastic pistols” that were allegedly the weapon of choice for cop killer because they allegedly are invisible to x-ray machines and metal detectors. We all know that the slide and barrel are steel and the ammo is brass and lead, but facts are irrelevant. Irony is that the Glock became the weapon of choice for the police.

        The very scary threat for gun owners is that if Biden wins the election, Cameltoe Harris is going to be tasking the police with gun confiscation and hunting down and exterminating gun owners who refuse to comply with gun confiscation. It will be Ruby Ridge and Waco multiplied by a factor of about one million. Gun owners who might have acquiesced a decade ago will violently resist. The police have already demonstrated that they will allow the criminal class (aka “Democrats”) to riot, vandalize, lot, burn, assault and murder with impunity when their Democrat masters order them to do so. The police have also alienated gun owners by endorsing anti gun propaganda. Once the first few hundred “gun nuts” are killed by police on confiscation raids, gun owners will realize that the best defense is a violent offense. The recent, random targeting of two Los Angeles County deputies demonstrates just how vulnerable street cops really are. Imagine the prognosis for survival if police were being randomly targeted by “gun nuts” who can actually shoot straight and might escalate to shotguns at intermediate range or rifles at longer range. The really hard core rifleman that can reliably kill from a half mile away are going to be the ultimate nightmare. Think of the massacres of police back in 2016 by Obama’s constituents, multiplied by a factor of 1,000. Gun owners might also target Democrat voters for reprisals in retaliation for confiscation raids.

        Civil war is becoming extreme likely and gun owners as well as the police need to consider how they will respond.

        1. avatar Manse Jolly says:

          Worth watching and might be interesting to some. Some AR/M16 can be seen around 8min mark. Might have to start from beginning.

          I misremembered some of this but time will do that to you.

    2. avatar Warlocc says:

      Nailed it.

      If cops were taught and encouraged to use their brains as one of the “less lethal” options instead of “I only got lethal and non lethal guns to use to handle every possible situation!”, things would be much improved.

  16. avatar Rusty - Always Carry - Chains says:

    People are missing the point: less lethal is a problem because the Soros cannon fodder aren’t dying frequently enough to move public opinion against Trump. At least that was the original plan. Now the suburban moms are starting to get frightened by the BLM/Antifa troops and it is hurting Bidens numbers.

  17. avatar Ralph says:

    I don’t recall George Floyd being shot with a firearm or injured with a “less lethal” device — unless knees are considered less lethal.

    I view every cop with suspicion. The truth is that better recruits trained better would make the weapons choices less relevant. Weed out the arrogant bullies, recruit from better candidates, train them properly, monitor their behavior (power corrupts), and then back the blue.

    1. avatar Prndll says:

      That is exactly what the NRA should be engaged in. Training. Instead of city leadership trying to brand them as terrorists, they should be embraced by them.

    2. avatar Eric in Oregon says:

      “knees are considered less lethal”

      Knees are definitely less than lethal… in the Floyd case it gave him time to die of an unrelated overdose.

  18. avatar Darkman says:

    I for one have Never been in favor of Less than lethal tools during the abduction and arrest of Criminals. It simply leaves to much room for error or ineffectiveness. It also gives the Criminal a possible way out and lawyers another thing to sue over. If the Perp refuses to cooperate as any Good Citizen should. Then shoot there Ass like they did in the old days. Back in the days before Less than Lethal people rarely acted the way they do today. They were much more likely to comply with an officers commands. People had respect for Law Enforcement, even Criminals who understood the choices. Refusing to comply with a Police Officer has become just another Opportunity to get your 15 seconds on the Interweb and a Check. Two possible out comes, You choose. Comply and let it get settled in Court or resist and possibly die. No middle ground.

  19. avatar Matt in Oklahoma says:

    These People are still the minority and NOT
    The People

  20. avatar Gadsden Flag says:

    I’ve used less than lethal force lots of times. Because, “Please, sir. Would you stop beating the shit out of your wife and get in my patrol car so I can take you to the county jail?” didn’t work. Said it before. You don’t want a negative encounter with LE? Don’t violate the law. If you do and you get caught, do as you’re told. You won’t get hurt. If the cop is wrong, and they can damn sure be wrong, still do what you’re told. If not, you will soon find yourself in the wrong. At that point nothing that happened earlier will matter. Judge, “Did the officer tell you to put your hands behind your back?” Defendant, “Yeah, but I didn’t do anything!” Judge, “What happened then?” Defendant, “He tried to cuff me and I knocked the shit out of him!” Judge, “I find you guilty of battery on an LEO. Eighteen months in DOC.” Bang! As the gavel comes down.

    1. avatar Darkman says:

      How to stay out of Trouble from a black man’s perspective.
      https://twitter.com/i/status/1287061681672278018

      1. avatar Darkman says:

        Chris Rock explains: What to do if you encounter a Police officer.
        https://youtu.be/uj0mtxXEGE8

  21. avatar Dennis Sumner says:

    Ya cant fix stupid,,,,,even with duct tape!

  22. avatar Jim Warren says:

    Stick with lead. It works.

  23. avatar Debbie W. says:

    Well well well…There seems to be more than enough people who are fixated on bad mouthing the police, etc. The solution is simple. If you have a problem with the police you need to put your money where your mouth is. All it will cost is a postage stamp to send your PD a signed letter stating you do not want the police dispatched to your address under any circumstances whatsoever. Date it, sign it, mail it and stfu.

    1. avatar Umm . . . says:

      If that were a sincere offer from the police – if there were actually a binding contract to that effect – I’d be sorely tempted. Let’s see:

      -If a local Karen doesn’t like my hedges or outdoor projects, no cops will come? Check!

      -If I drive at a perfectly reasonable 80mph on the local straight, dry, clear, no-traffic desert highways (idiotically signed for 55), no cops will come? Check!

      -If I shorten, suppress, or add fun-switches to my shop projects, no cops will come? Check!

      -Rebate for their share of my local taxes? Check! (pun intended)

      And the only “downside” is that my POTG friends and I would be on our own to defend our homes, families, and each other? And that no cops would respond if we did (in which case it wouldn’t be anything as quick and painless as a CoM gunshot)? Where do I sign?

  24. avatar possum says:

    Right now the cops are the underdog, everyone is rooting for them. Wait until they become more powerful they’ll be back to shooting dogs, little girls, and whatever else they wanna do. Short memories. These same “cops” are the ones who will enforce unconstitutional laws just because Paycheck. They hate lier’s yet took an oath to protect the Constitution. Death by kneehicular manslaughter, bags of suffocation, no knock kill it if it moves, and don’t move you’ll get shot never mind the dog chewing your leg off” good dog, good dog” . Yeah the protesters are wrong for burning and looting but the cops fuck up a lot too. You know back in the 60’s-70’s peaceful protest turned violent because government instigators went in and started the violence, I’m wondering about some of these violent peaceful protest not having a little help from the government too. And from what I’ve seen in the past, the only thing that protesting has done is more unconstitutional infringments and a more militarized police force. If We are on our own, then let us alone, if we shoot to protect our streets, leave us alone, you are on are own until the system makes money on your arrest is how it works.

  25. avatar GS650G says:

    Some fat bastard pushes a dumpster into me and I’m drawing. These cops are being emancipated and when they all quit it will get very interesting.

    1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

      You mean “emasculated”? If so, then yes.

      1. avatar GS650G says:

        Auto correct is a real pain. Every time I type Satan it auto corrects to Pelosi.

        1. avatar I Haz A Question says:

          LOL!

  26. avatar Not a SOROS PAID terrorist spineless cry baby. says:

    Nothing but, live rounds will get these SOROS PAID terrorist cry babies to learn their lesson.

    Nothing! When 100 million get dropped overnight it will all stop.

  27. avatar Chris Mallory says:

    Tasers have become nothing but torture devices in the hands of sadistic thugs with the low morals and suspect character needed to become a police officer. Instead of being used for defense they are most often used to torture anyone who doesn’t immediately fall to their knees and lick the cop’s boots. Their use by government employees should be banned.

  28. avatar Jim Simpson says:

    DOES ANYBODY ELSE SEE THE PROBLEM IN THIS PHOTO?

    A 40mm tear gas launcher is an area effect weapon firing metal canisters. When used as a direct fire weapon straight to somebody’s face it can deliver horrific, life changing injuries consistent with the phrase “fear of great bodily injury”. There’s over 150 such cases documented this year alone.

    How do you make sure it gets used as a direct fire weapon?

    Put a red dot sight on it AS SHOWN IN THIS PICTURE.

    https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/500467-texas-journalist-loses-eye-to-tear-gas-canister-during

    I fully support law enforcement use of non-lethal weapons. But pictured here is a *lethal* weapon.

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