“When John Glynn goes hunting, he means business,” ammoland.com reports. “He and his decoy dogs, Nuts and Scrap, are the primary protectors of 1800 head of cattle in S.E. Oklahoma, which roam freely on his 10,000 acres. So do the coyotes. Lots of them.” The goal: get the dogs to engage the coyote and ‘work it’ until the coyote gets ‘hooked.’ He wants the dog to bring the coyote back to within shooting range, but rarely do the coyotes respond alone.” So already we’ve got some controversy brewing; some might object to the idea of siccing dogs on coyotes, lest dog (and for some) coyote get injured. That includes the writer . . .
When I first saw a video of a hunt with a decoy dog, my concern was that the dog could get seriously hurt. I mean those coyotes are ultra-quick and mean! But, so are the hunting dogs. Big, tails bobbed, and tough enough to take care of themselves. But, if the coyotes are too numerous, John evens the score with a centerfire rifle.
Hunter Glynn defends the practice . . .
“As far as injuries to my dogs, they have had a few minor scrapes. I don’t know of any dogs personally that have been seriously hurt while working coyotes. I guess the worst thing that could happen is to have multiple coyotes on a single dog. That is why I run two dogs. Typically, my dogs chase the coyotes around and neither makes much contact. Every now and then, a coyote will want to fight. When one shows that much aggression, I will take him out before it gets a chance to hurt my dogs. My dog’s safety is my first concern!!! Always! It is my job to “read” the coyotes to determine how they are going to react to my dogs. My dogs are very capable of taking care of themselves though.”
“In the video above, John’s wife, April, finishes the job,” ammoland writes. Yes, well, not really. The coyote is alive as John’s dog rip it to pieces. Which is where Glynn lost a whole lot of support. As far as technique is concerned, the video above may not be entirely representative of an average kill.
“As far as firearms, he uses typical varmint centerfire calibers such as the .223, .22-250 and .243. He states that there isn’t near as much muzzle blast and it saves on the dogs hearing, as well as his. ‘The typical shot when using my dogs are from 25 yards to 100 yards. I have had coyotes close enough to actually touch many times’, explains John.
Both writer and subject are aware that this story will create controversy. Neither seems to care.
Certainly, this type of hunting is not for everyone. Cruel some will claim. But, John describes cruel as a neighboring sheep farmer having lost 40 lambs on a 30-acre parcel in a single night to crazed coyotes. And, that’s why John and his decoy dogs are in high demand in the 125,000 acres he hunts for others.
If only it had been a clean kill . . . Not always possible, of course. But desirable? Preferable? Definitely.
People have hunted wild boar, fox, stag/deer, raccoons, rabbits, bears, and other animals with dogs and hounds for thousands of years. I fail to see the problem. Except for rabbits, squirrels and maybe deer, all forms of dog hunting are somewhat or even extremely dangerous to the dogs. Raccoons can have rabies, foxes bite back, and bears and boar can easily kill a dog.
And Racoons can easily drown dogs if they get them in the water
“Every now and then, a coyote will want to fight. When one shows that much aggression, I will take him out before it gets a chance to hurt my dogs.”
EXCUSE ME? The coyote isn’t the aggressor here.
And your point? It is called coyote *hunting*.
+1. Coyotes are not cuddly, they are not cute, and they are not harmless.
He wasn’t condemning the practice, but rather the wording.
An animal fighting for its life is neither the aggressor nor vicious.
Also, it seems he’s not so much a hunter as someone who organizes and gets his jollies by watching dog fights, weighing in only when the fight goes against his bet.
This is abysmal PR, both for gunnies and actual hunters.
Coyotes kill livestock and pets. Go cry in the corner.
So the dog ISN’T the aggressor?
If you only look at this one, isolated moment, yes. If you’re looking at the big picture, in which this is a rancher protecting his livestock from predators who have already attacked his animals then no, the coyote is the big-picture aggressor.
No WIlliam the dog is NOT the aggressor, the dog is the protector, period. If the coyotes weren’t being aggressive they would not come in close enough to be shot. I think it is important to consider what is really going on here, the dog is a DECOY, the coyotes want to kill it and eat it, not play with it..
BULLSHIT.
Those dogs don’t look much like decoys. They look like they can hold their own. Hunting hogs with dogs look more more dangerous for the dogs.
Anything that makes me agree with PETA on any level gets on my shit list real fast. If you want to kill coyotes, get a horse or an atv and man up. Dont use dogs to maul the damn things and FFS dont put it on the goddamn internet!! We have enough of a PR problem.
I would have to completely agree with what you said.
I have two coonhounds, a Red Tick and a Plott. These dogs have been bred for almost 250 years to do one thing. Run down their prey and either corner it, tree it or kill it. If they get a hold of something it’s going to die and will be gruesome so turn your head away. I have no sympathy for so-called animal lovers who think wildlife is oh so cute. The wild is a dangerous place for man and beast. There are only two types of creatures in the wild the eaters and eaten. Remember that when are out in the woods.
Agree with this 100%
Anyone who has no problem with hunting and at the same time has a problem with this is being emotionally dishonest or is a very inexperienced/uneducated hunter.
Noted. From now on I’ll just gut-shoot deer and follow the four mile blood trail.
No, when a dog corners and eats an animal, it ain’t pretty – but neither is it hunting, as least on the part of the two-footer.
If you get hard legally watching critters fight, that’s not my lookout – but don’t insult those of us who respect our prey by calling it hunting, much less a sport.
These are vermin, killing the money producing livestock on which these rural folk depend, sometimes entirely.
I always loved to hear hounds hunting coons when I was growing up. I didn’t hunt then, but they make a wonderful sound.
We called that chin music.
Okay, fair enough, but for the most part we’ve run predators into the ground, so other species are way out of balance. You say “The wild is a dangerous place for man and beast,” and I don’t entirely disagree. But it’s obviously much more dangerous for the beasts. In Alaska, in Africa, wherever, the beasts are losing.
We may have done that at one time but the predators are back in force especially coyotes. Fifty years ago the coyote’s range extended from the west coast to the Mississippi and Southern Canada to northern Mexico. Today they are found in every county in the United States, Canada and Mexico. They live in the arctic and have crossed the Panama canal. I have coyotes running around my Arlington Virginia neighborhood.
You want to know where we stand with predators? See David Baron’s “The Beast in the Garden”
Why is that liberals have outsourced their brains to MSNBC, the Huffington Post and the Daily Kos?
A mind is a terrible thing to waste.
There are coyotes and wild hogs running around in the city limits of the major metro area where I live. On the news this very morning where a resident hit a wild hog in the suburbs.
I come from a rural area (family owns a farm, brother is a full-time cattle farmer) and the earlier comment sums it up perfectly: “These are vermin, killing the money producing livestock on which these rural folk depend, sometimes entirely.”
I cant stand trophy hunting because it takes out the alpha male that would fill the gene pool. I like the re-introduction of natural predators that take the weak and infirm.
Sometimes there is a fine line between responsible (sporting) hunters and inbred, hillbilly, toothless, tornado bait, white trailer trash. Hunting for food and protection are other matters.
+1 Agreed
I too Hate to side with PITA here but…..Not a kleen instant kill. Coyote was suffering loudy and then your dirty dogs moved in to maul the downed animal. Do it right or not at all. Most of all don’t post a fracking brag video enjoing your selves if it’s not a kleen kill ya idiots.
Got a lot of “kleen” kills under your belt, do ya? The wisdom of posting it on YouTube aside, sometimes shit just happens. You don’t always get the perfect shot on a coyote, and sometimes you only step on half a cockroach. The two are about equal on the vermin scale. Cowboy up.
‘Round here, I don’t mind the coyotes one bit. Were it not for them, I’d be up to my arse in opossums and tree rats.
Oh, I understand the need to thin ’em out near sheep and such, but vermin they ain’t. They merit the same respect as any other respectable predator.
Fair enough, Russ. I misspoke by omission. They’re not always vermin (like yours aren’t), but if they show themselves to be, then it’s fair to treat them as such.
“Pita” is a kind of BREAD, not an actual organization.
Please note that Mr. Glynn is not engaged in hunting, but predator control. Hunting is a recreational activity while predator control is a defense of his primary means of income. The coyotes are a threat to the livelihood of Mr. Glynn and his neighbors and as such, the ethics of predator control are different. I see no issue with Mr. Glynn’s practices.
Agreed. As I understand it, this is about livestock protection, not hunting. As such, I have no beef with this video. As for a “clean kill”, I think we’d all like to kill our prey instantly, but in real life sometime things don’t work out like that. The coyote didn’t last long, and died in a similar manner to it’s own prey.
Agreed. Non-hunters and those unfamiliar with ag and ranch land management are being misled by the lede- “clean kill”. Go to California DFG website and look up the difference between the rules on how to hunt a coyote for sport, and what you can do with a depredation permit as a rancher, when the coyotes are killing your farm animals.
Mr Glynn is a rancher. He is controlling predators on his land using dogs, a method used for centuries by farmers and herders.
Where do you think we got the German Shepard breed? They were bred for protecting sheep from wolves which were a real danger in the forests and mountains.
Why and how did the Boer farmers breed the Rhodesian Ridgeback?
It wasn’t for some foo-foo dog fancier show- it was to do work, protecting the kraal and their land and livestock, by combining the European breeds they brought, by combining the best qualities of the sight and scent hounds for hunting and mastiffs for home defense that did not do so well in the harsh environment of S. Africa, by breeding in the best qualities of the native dogs of the Khoikhoi tribe, which they admired for its tenacity defending the village against the African lion, and self-sufficiency hunting for its own food. Rhodie’s are also nicknamed Lion Dogs, the only breed unafraid, and able to chase off the big cats. I have one of each, both rescues, and they both have a high prey drive and without any training, an instinctive “job” to do when they see coyotes on our walks in open space.
Do you know much about ranching? Its hard work- not a lot of time for wasting time, and its a tough business- bad weather and you can be wiped out- google the effect of drought in mid-west on hay and you understand why prices of good meat has doubled in last couple years.
Now do the math from the numbers in Ammoland article. 30% of 200 calves times $1000 a head, after being fed up, is $60,000. Seems to me this is a highly practical way of controlling costs.
And last but not least- this is not un-sporting, nothing like putting two dogs in a pit to fight to the death- the rancher is only using two dogs, which ARE at risk for more than one coyote, which he goes on to say he is very careful to protect the dogs, rather than abuse them for his own gratification, from the coyotes, who are NOT weak or easy prey.
In fact, its quite common in urban environments for a coyote pack to bait unwary dogs with a bitch in heat, and take it down in a group, with no mercy. Coyotes are very efficient and deadly, highly evolved predators. Google cheek teeth.
They are also not some engangered species, but becoming a pest as the most well adapted predator in North America- having spread from western states all across the US, happily living in urban areas, and very efficient at taking small dogs and cats out of backyards day and night, and quite capable of going over a six foot fence with one in their jaws. They have been documented attacking toddlers and small kids, as prey. When hybridized with dogs or wolves, as they have along the east coast, they become much larger and more dangerous hunters, even for humans. Read: http://www.cnn.com/2009/SHOWBIZ/Music/10/29/canada.singer.killed/index.html
They are not EVIL, they are simply wild animals, and like any wild animal, real hunters who are some of the most passionate true conservationists say, “Respect them and don’t under-estimate them”.
Hoth: “Please note that Mr. Glynn is not engaged in hunting, but predator control.”
Exactly. I guess that’s hard to understand from the suburbs.
A quick clean kill is the goal. Doesn’t always happen. Should hunters be banned because of this? The opinions of the people that own the land, the cattle and the sheep as well as the dogs should count more than the opinions of folks who hunt for their kills in the super market.
Of course they should be banned. Them and their high powered sniper rifles.
/sarcasm
Exactly, jwm. A clean kill is always the goal, but if you do this kind of thing enough, one’s gonna slip through now and then. I suppose all those folks decrying this have always dropped their deer where it stood, and it never ran a foot, right? Besides, what was this guy supposed to do? The coyote dropped where it stood. It was writhing on the ground, but from the point of view of the camera, there was no clean shot to finish it off. Then the dogs were there, so you can’t shoot. What should he have done differently?
If the coyote is proving to be a pest, you get rid of it. You aim for clean, and most of the time you get it. Sometimes you don’t. That’s just life.
I want to point out that I say this as someone who has never shot a coyote, nor shot at a coyote. But I understand those who do.
in fairness, while i totally agree with you, bird dogs are trained not to go after the animal until released on command. There are about ten zillion good reasons to train these dogs not to go after the animal and stay back until released.
As the son of a bird dog trainer I can tell you, birds (like quail) and coyotes are two different creatures, and require different hunting style.
different hunting style, true, but are you saying you cannot train a dog that is hunting coyotes to stay away from the kill until commanded to?
While I agree with what you say, the bit about shooting only if the coyote is “aggressive” would serve to imply that the dogs do all the work, he’s a legalized Michael Vic and that Mr. Boom doesn’t speak unless the wrong team is winning.
Should that inference fall within 45° of the mark, then his conduct is so low that when they bury him they’ll have to dig upward.
I’m guessing this reply is in the wrong place, since you replied to me? I don’t see me or anyone else above you in this particular thread talking about “only shooting when aggressive” or words to that effect.
Who cares if its not a clean kill, the dogs took care of that. And if we are trying to talk about being humain in the kill, its a freakin coyote…those little bastards deserve to get torn up IMHO!!!
Let me preface by say that I’ve taken more than my share of coyotes.
Having an animal torn apart by dogs after a poor, wounding, shot is nothing to be proud of. It doesn’t matter if the coyote kills 40 lambs, there is no moral equivalency to justify it. Learn to make a clean kill or don’t don’t do it at all.
There sure is an economic justification. I’m sorry your fancy office building doesn’t get raided by coyotes, but they’re up there with feral hogs when we’re talking about economic losses for farmers. Grow the fvck up and realize that these people’s livelihoods and that of their families are at stake.
We don’t have as many fancy office buildings here in Montana as you might think.
I don’t need to see a coyote tear up a calf on YouTube. I have first hand experience with our own livestock. My family raises animals (cattle) for the express purpose of having them killed. I will kill any animal that negatively impacts our bottom line. That killing doesn’t give me any pleasure. It is what it is.
If I make a poor shot like that in the video, I will follow up with a second one. I certainly wouldn’t put it on YouTube. It’s nothing to be proud of.
Use poison then, no shots at all or maybe traps. It’s much more humane, right?
Not traps, certainly.
However, following up with a kill shot is quick, and the right thing to do, rather than – this.
We only saw one video- with a relatively long shot, and little time to get closer – read the article and the author says he often shoots from 25 yards or even closer so this may have been a rare situation where he couldn’t get a clean second shot- and apparently no need as the yote appeared to be down, and hidden by the grass, until it moved suddenly as the dogs got closer.
And I didn’t hear any gloating or hootin’ and hollering over the dogs attacking- and they were just doing their job, by instinct,
nor did I see any footage of any length dwelling on “tearing up” so I have to wonder about those who characterize it as anything of that nature.
As a practical matter, taking another shot may have been un-necessary or even unlikely to kill cleanly, in this particular case, for it appeared to me that by the time a second shot might have been taken, the dogs were in the way. Unfortunate for the coyote, but I would not chance shooting my trained dogs, to put the coyote out of its misery unless I had a clean shot too.
Remember- this was predator control- not sport hunting. Its not always possible to be perfect in the latter, in an one-shot-one-kill scenario, either, although that is the ethic and the objective for the vast majority of responsible hunters.
I guess you fall in the category of being a perfect shot, all the time?
So kill the coyotes in a way that prolongs death and you are a monster.
-OK-
Let the coyotes live and they eat practically everything that moves…shilling death in a more prolonged manner…and this is any different?
The wholesale way to take care of the problem is poison them. That would make them suffer more than anything listed so far. Any problem with that? Well that is the way wildlife officers typically handle rabies or dire problems with other animals that present a danger at a large level.
Coyotes dine primarily on field mice, gophers and prairie dogs. Do they kill farm animals and pets for a meal? They do. Cats are a delicacy to them. Several cats “disappeared” in my (former) NM neighborhood. But I enjoyed the 3 a.m. visits when they taunted domestic dogs: “Join us! We’re FREE, unlike you!”
In lean times, they do kill and eat farms pets and animals. But let’s not confuse that with preference. They’re smart enough to realize farm kills entail considerable risk.
In the semi-rural communities of Florida, and even on the fringes of the suburbs, they grab pets all the time, as well as getting into trash and being general nuisances. This is not a problem confined to the “wild west.”
You mean the rest of Florida isn’t like Miami Beach? Another reason to stay away. From Miami Beach.
I’ve never been to Miami Beach, I wouldn’t know. But I get the premise.
Because animals totally don’t rip each other to pieces in the wild….
I’m not a farmer or rancher but it strikes me that they seem to have a better grasp on what’s important in life than a lot of us city folk that occasionally take a day trip out to the country. Sometimes reality isn’t pretty but it beats the heck out of losing your livelihood. If every time a dog wizzed on your $300 corvette tires they blew out, after a few times to the tire store you might have a different view of dogs.
Interesting (and likely accurate) analogy.
Maryland is pretty liberal – even some people generally opposed to deer hunting are all in favor of coyote hunting. Because they attack their pets, and potentially children.
Having grown up on a cattle ranch in eastern OK, I can tell you coyotes will damage your bottom line. We rasied Black Angus cattle and sold the calfs as feeders. In the spring when the calfs are born the coyotes eat the after birth then get brave and decide to kill the calf. When a ranchers take a $500 to $700 hit from a calf being killed, they do something about it, or go broke. I can remember my dad taking a lot of 200-400 yard shots with his 300 H&H magnum and more times than not hitting the coyote right between the eyes or in the head.
Maybe if you saw a video of 3 coyotes tearing a newborn calf from limb to limb, you wouldnt thing this was so bad.
+1000
+1
Or found someone’s family pet freshly killed.
I don’t know any hunters who have a perfect track record of clean kills. It looked like a gut shot. And, in fairness, even if it were a perfect shot the coyote would be kicking and have enough fight left in the short time it took for the dogs to be on it. Bird dogs are trained to stay away and mouth the bird, until told to do so by the hunter. The fact that these dogs were not similarly trained makes it impossible for a follow-up shot. Good hunting dogs are not cheap [and these two are beauties] and it takes a lot of work to train them. Personally, I would not want them finishing off a coyote, I’d be afraid of rabies or all kinds of other things. Who knows what a wounded animal is going to do. Maybe the dogs can take care of themselves, but the potential vet bills etc. are also expensive. And, a dog that is healing is not hunting. Personally, I’d (try to) train them to stay away from the animal (after the gunshot) until released. Who knows, maybe there are more behind that one (gunshots around here bring the foxes and coyotes like a dinner bell) and the dogs ripping apart the first coyote scares them off. But that’s me.
Really, the biggest mistake is putting this on video in the first place.
Natural death is worse than that for a coyote.
Stop being pussies. This very modern obsession for a “clean kill” is ridiculous PC bullshit. If you believe in that then every single one of your ancestors was an unethical animal torturer who couldn’t hunt properly. Even grandpa who used surplus FMJ .30-06 for deer.
+1 I was just about to say the something along those lines. This idea of a “clean kill” is silly especially in this scenario of protecting cattle. Perhaps we should all use poisoned tipped blow dart guns so that the animal just “falls asleep” and experiences no pain.
I’m not advocating cruelty to animals, but killing is killing and sometimes it isn’t “perfect” or “clean”. Get real.
Back in the 60’s it was common to poison coyotes… and the cattle ranchers thought nothing of it
I fail to see your point. Who said ranchers didn’t poison coyotes?
My point is if you think that kiling a coyote with dogs is cruel, what about poison? I dont care for coyotes or how they die. I have seen them kill calves for what looked like sport. It is a cruel world and some people seem to live a sheltered life.
I would think an AR 15 would be a better choice than a bolt action given they might be traveling in packs.
If coyotes are running in packs, they are rarely close enough together to warrant or necessitate a semi-auto. I can cycle a bolt quick enough to get on another yote just fine. I’ve even seen badgers and coyotes work together, but they are always 50 – 100 yds apart.
“Working together” in what way? Pardon me, but I’m having trouble swallowing this.
A friend of mine swears he’s seen Beagles run on their front legs only. I rank that up with tales of snakes putting their tails in their mouths and rolling, hoop-style. I’ve heard people swear a friend of a friend witness this.
The same way they worked together to kill that woman jogger in Canada. Coyotes are co-operative animals when it suits them.
I could be worng, but I believe what the sentance is supposed to be expressing is that he has seen badgers work in packs, and coyotes work in packs. Not badgers and coyotes working in a pack. That would be a nightmare second only to the thought that there exist spiders than hunt in packs.
Damn, you’re so quick to troll. Just google “coyote and badger”. I’ve seen it personally, not heard it secondhand.
Oh, and apology accepted.
I am not trolling, and you know it. Or maybe you’re delusional. If this video exists, why didn’t you provide the link? Who’s trolling whom?
http://animal.discovery.com/animal-facts/coyotes-badgers-find-food.htm
“Native Americans were the first people to recognize an interesting collaboration between coyotes and badgers: They help each other find and trap food.”
Thank you. I now am a believer. Did you know that rattlers and porcupines winter together in blowholes, and sometimes caves? That’s not exactly “cooperation”, just a common need for somewhere to winter, a sometimes scare commodity, and a healthy respect for the abilities of one another.
@jwm & rob1285: Hate to break it to you, but badgers and coyotes are known to team up.
Heck, some chimps will sharpen a stick and go spearing bush babies.
While we’ve good brains and opposable thumbs, when it comes to going beyond instinct we’re by no means the only game in town.
Oh, and while the vast majority of spiders are solitary critters, a couple dozen species are known to be social – most share one big web, and a few huntin packs.
Sweet dreams.
Anelosimus eximius is the only variety that comes to mind, but there are others.
I wish I could tell you that they’re five inches across and can jump 30 feet, but sadly I cannot.
Ah, well…
Russ, I don’t think I questioned the badger/coyote conspiracy. I pointed out that coyotes had worked together to kill a woman jogger in Canada a few years back.
Seems the height of Irony tho. William Burke, the worlds leading conspiracy buff, finds it hard to believe coyotes and badgers can conpire with one another. Passing strange.
Obviously, as canines cannot talk, they cannot conspire.
My misread, then.
BTW, jackals and hyenas are known to use language to pass intel back and forth (among their own kind; they don’t team up with one another) while hunting as well. Cool – and spooky.
Mostly I’m just amusedly imagining 1285’s nightmares.
Yes, I’m a twisted bastard…
1285 does seem to have a larger than life aversion to arachnids. Must be a story there.
Don’t know about Snoopy, but…
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/t/video/pants-wearing-dog-runs-stairs-front-legs-15241009?ref=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2Furl%3Fsa%3Dt%26rct%3Dj%26q%3Ddog%2520runs%2520on%2520front%2520legs%26source%3Dweb%26cd%3D3%26ved%3D0CDUQtwIwAg%26url%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Fabcnews.go.com%252FGMA%252Fvideo%252Fpants-wearing-dog-runs-stairs-front-legs-15241009%26ei%3DIYYWUtCWH4mi2gXyooD4Aw%26usg%3DAFQjCNF8PWESY0wZzEeadC6FU4JZWzzhUQ%26sig2%3DlZWPZdYPGb_vOrlFjQRGMQ%26bvm%3Dbv.51156542%2Cd.aWM
BTW, don’t have a youtube for proof, but have seen owls and coyotes “work together” – at least, the owl was savvy enough to circle the field the coyote was working to snap up any rabbits or mice scared into moving, that the owl might snap up. Risky though- have found grounded owlets and juveniles killed by coyotes too.
And seen a Great Horned Owl hit a barn owl right off a fence post- the big ones predate on the little ones- crows too – take em right out of the trees where they roost up for the night. That’s why crows hate owls, and attack them in “mob’s”,
by day.
Point being- it ain’t ‘Bambi’ out there, for you city bred and raised POTG. Coyotes are just part of the ‘circle of life’ (without the ‘Lion King’ music, pls)….
Interesting stuff. Thanks.
Damn…badgers and yotes working hand in hand. Gentlemen…I don’t know what weapons will be used to fight World War III, but they better be able to kill coyotes and badgers. I’ve lost a few pets to Coyotes so they aren’t exactly at the top of my favorite wild animal lists, and badgers, are well…badgers.
jwm – Oddly enough, just spiders. And not even all spiders. I think tarantulas are cool. But every other spider…I’ll just nope my way right out of there.
Yeah, it sounded like he had to work the bolt manually. An accurate semi-auto might be the optimum tool.
I was thinking dog decoys were something like duck decoys. 🙂
Anyone moaning about this has never heard of hunting hogs with dogs, where the dogs are not uncommonly killed by the hogs. Or cyanide devices for coyotes. I’m not a hunter and don’t care to be, but to my mind a deer offers the hunter something, and deserves their respect and compassion for it. A coyote offers nothing but lost livestock and time wasted hunting them. If you can take a half-ass shot and it bleeds out over 2 days I say that’s better than not shooting and having it kill your livestock.
At the beginning of the video, I thought the dog was carrying the lamb cry decoy on its collar. In my mind, that was pretty cunning.
I’m seeing loads of animosity towards coyotes that I just don’t understand. From my perspective, a coyote is just another animal, deserving of respect. Heck, it’s rather close to a dog, and there’s some evidence of coyotes being domesticated by indians. Sure, protecting your livelihood is important, but I don’t see why that requires eradication of all coyotes, or the cruelty that some people seem totally fine with.
Basically Coyotes kill pets and live stock more often than wild animals because pets and live stock are easier to kill. Think about it this way, would you rather go to the grocery store and pick up a steak or find something, kill it, gut it, skin it, quarter it, age it, and then butcher it?
The hatred towards coyotes is because they, like all animals (including humans) choose the easiest way to get a meal and that usually leads them closer and closer to humans either hurting pets, or someones bottom line.
Also I don’t think anyone wants all coyotes to die, just the ones too close for comfort. The acceptance of bad kills in shooting and the like are just natural things hunters accept. No hunter, or anyone who shoots living things, can get a good clean kill each and every time. Sometimes your going to pull a shot or wind will take the round or it will deflect off a tree limb or bone inside the animal.
As for cruelty, the hit seemed like a lung shot. I don’t know why the dog trainer trained his dogs to attack an animal that had just been shot. If the dogs didn’t attack the coyote it probably would have laid down and died without screaming.
I’m mostly referring to comments like “those little bastards deserve to get torn up IMHO” and similar I’ve seen here and elsewhere. It’s an animal. I’m not opposed to killing them when necessary. But I get the impression any time coyotes come up that people, on a visceral level, hate them. I mean, come on people, I know kill shots aren’t always clean, and I know that you need to protect what’s yours (pets, livestock, kids). I just don’t get the “Kill em all! Make the bastards suffer” cruelty and vitriol.
I also don’t get why people bring up my (super uncomfortable) chair and airconditioned environment where I work. I work a desk job, big deal. I’ve never successfully hunted anything. I’ve been fishing since I was in a stroller, and love the wilderness. I get that sometimes you need to kill an animal, I just don’t get why you’d want to make one suffer.
Coyotes are what they are: excellent survivors. I see no reason not to respect that. They’re not mean or evil, and it’s irrational to hate them for doing what they do. Do you have to right to kill them if they’re messing with your livelihood? Sure you do. But in the clip, the dogs are the aggressors, not the coyotes.
“Its an animal, it deserves repsect”.
I would set my house and every house in my neighborhood on fire to kill a spider.
I mention your chair (super uncomfortable) and air conditioning to merely illustrate your narrow perspective. You see pictures of coyotes and think of your pet dog. You see a coyote in a field and are awe inspired by nature. But, when you see a rat roaming your yard, near or in your house you think, “I better get that bastard before he f*cks up my house or passes on some disease.”
Ironically, you’ve probably never had to worry about rats. Why? Because they’ve pretty much been reduced in population in most cities and towns that they’re not a problem. Imagine if rats we eating the insulation off your home wiring, eating your food, bed infested with fleas left by the rats, catching a disease from contact with their feces or urine. You would have very little compassion for rats.
Most (almost all) ranchers and farmers see coyotes the same way you perceive rats, or at least should perceive rats. Just as you don’t go beyond your home to hunt rats, farmers and ranchers are only out to protect their land and livestock. They’re not out to eradicate coyotes. And, to a degree, the malice towards coyotes is somewhat justified. Walk in their shoes for a while and you’ll understand.
I have respect for coyotes. For people to project evil intent upon them is the height of absurdity; they’re animals, and are just doing what they need to do to survive. I have great respect for that.
But if they’re actually messing with your livestock or farm animals, I also respect your right to kill ’em dead. But the coyote is not being mean or evil. He’s just doing his job.
I’ve yet to see a coyote do anything evil or malicious. I wish I could say the same about cops.
It’s easy to criticize and cast judgment from your comfy chair and your air conditioned environment. BTW, what does domesticating coyotes have anything to do with this topic? Coyotes are ruthless killers that prey on weak and vulnerable. They become a nuisance around livestock.
If someone were trying to kill your dog or family pet, assuming you have one, would you not hesitate to shoot him? You would use poisons or traps to kill mice or rats in your house, after all they are a nuisance too. You might even think, “Gawd damn mice and rats are destroying my basement. How much will this cost to fix”. Shouldn’t mice and rats get the same respect as coyotes? Yet, you castigate others for protecting their livestock and livelihood from nuisance coyotes. And, no one ever said anything about eradicating the species.
Well, personally- I have no animosity for Coyotes- actually, being a dog and animal over in general, I don’t hunt them, even though I could here, in So Cal, year round.
But I WOULD if I were a land owner with farm animals whom I depended upon for my livelihood, and I completely understand the emotion felt by those folks, including a friend who has lost all but one of his couple dozen free range chickens, most of his turkeys, and a half dozen goats, to repeat coyote predation,
especially because who was told he was unable to shoot them (because he lived within a residential area in the county),
and unable to poison them, because CA DFG told him that was illegal too.
I’ve never hunted with dogs, but given how sensitive their hearing is, you’d think you’d want a can to protect them.
I’ve often wondered about that. My dog is a complete wuss, and cowers in the kitchen at the sound of thunder or fireworks, but I’ve been shooting at my buddy’s property in Virginia, and both he and friends of his have had their dogs out where we were shooting, usually tied out 50 feet or so back from the firing line, and those dogs never even twitch an ear or look in the direction of the gunshots, so I assume it must not bother them much or at all.
Dogs are funny about noise. My Red Tick cowers when it thunders or when she hears fireworks but you can fire a 12 gauge over her head and she won’t flinch. My Plott hound ignores thunder, does run in the house when fireworks go off but is terribly gun shy.
We started pups off with a, no pun intended, starter gun. Never hunted coyotes but we hunted a variety of birds, quail, pheasant, grouse, ducks, geese. And we used beagles for rabbit.
One of the reasons we taught dogs to “soft mouth” a bird was so they wouldn’t tear it up. We wanted to eat those fellas and a Brittany Spaniel can tear a quail all to pieces.
I’ve had lots of still live birds brought to me, unhurt aside from the damage my shot had done to them first. I praised the dog for bringing them in gently, gave it a treat and then wrung the birds neck.
My dog loves guns. She’s seen me shoot, slaughter, and butcher enough livestock, she knows exactly what it means, especially since she usually gets a piece. You pick up a rifle, and she’s watching very intently. Cycle the action, and she gets really excited. Walk out the door, and she runs to the window and screams at you to hurry up 😉
It’s all about making the gunshot fun (or at least neutral). She taught my other dog to not be afraid of gunshots, just by being excited instead of afraid.
I’ve been told, but cannot confirm, that certain breeds of dogs are known as “gun dogs” because they have been bred and trained to follow the barrel of a gun in order to better ascertain where food has fallen.
How is using dogs to kill coyotes “protecting” them? The dogs are doing the attacking, not the coyotes.
Are you drunk today? Your reading comprehension here is disappointing.
What did I not read correctly? I’m waiting. Now dodge the question and toss another baseless insult. It’s what I’ve come to expect from you.
Anon was never talking about protecting dogs by killing coyotes. He was talking about using a suppressor to protect the hearing of your dogs. Your clarification of who is the attacker is pointless in a conversation about canine hearing protection.
They used to hunt Jaguars in S.America with dogs. Coyotes kill dogs when the a coyote intentionally acts as a decoy and lures the dog off into an ambush w/ the rest of the coyotes.
He should protect his hearing w/ a suppressor. Now that mine is here I’ll be spending some time in the loft of my brother-in-law’s barn plugging away at coyotes that come onto his property to attack their chickens, ducks, etc. It’s been bad this year.
BTW — instead of dogs, couldn’t this work really well? According to a previous TTAG post: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2013/06/daniel-zimmerman/new-from-mojo-outdoors-super-critter-predator-decoy/
I like coyotes well enough, and I used to mountain bike alongside a pack of ’em from time to time. But they’re not dogs and they can get very unpleasant.
If they’re taking down livestock, which I’ve seen them do, they need to be shot because they will not stop. They’ll eat calves, goats, lambs, chickens and family pets with equal gusto. A clean kill is a worthy goal, but let’s not forget that the coyotes’ kills are far from clean. They are bloody, and the pray dies in agony. That’s just the way it is.
Think about what would have happened if you had wrecked your mountain bike and been injured, bleeding. We might have heard about you on the evening news, Ralph.
I have no problem with killing coyotes that are killing domesticated animals. I don’t fault the coyote for wanting an easy meal, but I also don’t fault the farmers and the land owners for fighting back. That’s the way of nature.
I personally wouldn’t use my dogs for the purpose though. They’re family to me, and I won’t put them in potential harm’s way.
+100. My first of the day.
the game call works enough that was just plain mean even for a coyote in my opinion just about un ethical in my book
That is how they do it is SE Oklahoma. You should see how they do it out in the Panhandle of Oklahoma. It starts as soon as the coyote is spotted. The spotter then releases three grayhounds and try’s to keep up across county roads, state highways, trails and fields – usually for miles. Once the coyote gives up the run, the fight starts, 3 against 1 until the hunter arrives with the kill dog, usually an Irish Wolfhound. Believe me, the coyote in the video was dispatched mercifully in comparison.
Oh? Given the video and your explanation of West OK there is only moderate variation. The video has perhaps less running mileage wise. Diff dogs are used in both. But most of all the kill dog in the posted vidieo is the poor shot property / livestock owner. Coyote is stilled mauled vs instant kill either way in both examples.
I’m going to jump in and try to cover all the bases.
Shot placement: Perfect is for bull eyes that never move, good is for meat you want, fast hits pretty much anywhere on the target are for combat and what the heck ever works is for vermin. For the record coyotes are vermin.
Great shot placement on live creatures that tend to move around is not going to work out 100% of the time. With Coyote it’s catch as you can since they don’t graze and thus have no reason to stand still or move slowly. In fact, anytime I’ve seen them they are moving.
Caliber: These are coyotes, a .223 isn’t exactly ideal but it will certainly do. .22lr is often used on them as well as just about everything else you can throw at one. As near as I can tell they’re about as useful as a feral cat, which is to say for good for breeding and killing more than their fair share of things more useful than themselves and nothing else (unless being hunted for sport counts as useful).
Consider this for a moment: A coyote, given the chance, would kill you for food or maybe even sport. It will steal your food and leave you to starve and it will never, ever feel shame or remorse for it’s actions. They’re a plague on farmers and ranchers, a hazard to pets and a nuisance to the rest of us. They’re effective hunters, prolific breeders, highly adaptable and set to become as big a problem as wild hogs are in many places. I say if you poison them, hunt them to hounds, shoot, trap or otherwise dispose of them all the better. Crying over a gut shot coyote is about as hard to take seriously as concern over what happens to a mouse caught in a sticky trap, pure foolishness.
Posting it on the internet: We all know there will be someone offended by everything and anything anyone else does. In that spirit there is no more harm in posting this than any other legal activity. I wouldn’t post it personally, but despite the amount of time I spend in cyberspace I’m anti posting pretty much anything except my thoughts on this and that, and then only anonymously. I don’t believe in borrowing trouble. That said if this guy doesn’t mind attracting the ire of the uniformed, unreasonable and or the just plain sissified, more power to him.
+1
Oh and I almost missed my chance to use a favorite quote twice in a single day
“The total amount of suffering per year in the natural world is beyond all decent contemplation. During the minute that it takes me to compose this sentence, thousands of animals are being eaten alive, many others are running for their lives, whimpering with fear, others are slowly being devoured from within by rasping parasites, thousands of all kinds are dying of starvation, thirst, and disease. It must be so. If there ever is a time of plenty, this very fact will automatically lead to an increase in the population until the natural state of starvation and misery is restored. In a universe of electrons and selfish genes, blind physical forces and genetic replication, some people are going to get hurt, other people are going to get lucky, and you won’t find any rhyme or reason in it, nor any justice. The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but pitiless indifference.”
― Richard Dawkins, River Out of Eden: A Darwinian View of Life
It’s not all that easy to work that one into two different conversations in a single day even if you’re trying. Today just seems like the day that this one keeps fitting in.
Farago, it is a Coyote. You concern yourself with a clean kill when you hunt a noble animal, not a base varmint. At the ranges he is talking about I think most shots will be quite lethal and as long as you are using the right dogs they should be safe. This is the kind of thing many breeds were made to do, silly to deny them that.
Pit Bulls are bred to fight. Yet, for good reason, it’s illegal to let them do that.
Burke, I really think you’re trolling, or at best, just ignorant. This is such an irrational reply. It’s not illegal to use a dog to hunt coyotes.
A hundred years ago when American Staffordshire Terriers and American Pit Bull Terriers were being proffered as the ideal family dog and companion for your children, they weren’t demonstrably different from what we have now, and those dogs were most certainly not “bred to fight.”
My experience has been a little different. I’ve lost more sheep to dogs than coyotes. Sure the coyotes make themselves heard and are in the area, but I’ve found that dogs, once they pack up can be very destructive and hard to break of that habit.
Had to nicely tell one neighbor many years ago that his dogs were probably the ones attacking our sheep and we did not want to shoot a dog, but if any got inside the fenceline, we’d have no choice. Ended up shooting two dogs and found wool in between their teeth. The neighbor ended up with two dead dogs and paying for replacement sheep…
In West Virginia it was legal to shoot stray dogs around your livestock. It was also legal to shoot dogs running deer.
All this emotional handwringing about animals makes me think we’re heading the same way as the brits. Time to pull some man cards.
How many people crying about the treatment that coyote got are vegetarians?
Yep, it’s not as if animals can suffer, or anything. You neither, real man.
I imagine that coyotes get clean kills from man a lot more often than they give clean kills to their victims. If the reality of how your food is protected and brought to your table is too much for you, I really don’t know what to say.
You really ought to be a vegetarian. It would relieve the suffering of the animals that have to die to feed you.
Never mind what the eff I eat. You worry about your food, let me worry about mine. So the suffering is part of the thrill, eh? Compassion’s just another four-letter word to you.
WB, you’re just flat-out trolling now. “Suffering is part of the thrill” is related in no way whatsoever to what he said. That’s a straw man that you set up all by yourself.
Looks like I hit a nerve, william. Eat any veal or lamb today?
Are you offering some? Bring it on.
I am a vegetarian, William. I’m not a hypocrit whining about the poor mistreated coyotes while I’ve got bacon grease dripping off my chin.
WB, I knew you were a troll. That is all!
http://www.salon.com/2013/07/19/everything_is_trolling_now/
Yep, you’re still a troll. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not suggesting that you troll all the time. Maybe you do. I’ve seen your posts on other topics where you provide thoughtful contributions. As it relates to this particular topic, with respect to your replies, I’ve seen far more controversial antagonism without any attempt to constructively frame a counter argument.
Same laws here in California. I had to shoot one of my neighbor’s dogs who was chasing my horses. For those that don’t have livestock, dogs chasing horses can be very dangerous. A horse can easily go through a fence and break a leg or neck, either of which means it has to be put down.
Livestock is always more important than dogs and predators. If either one is threatening livestock, then they simply have to be killed. Sure, a clean kill would always be preferable, but we don’t live in a perfect world. Face reality, having livestock requires this type of work.
Having started life on a farm I can tell you there’s a big difference between sport hunting(stocking your freezer with meat and your walls with trophies) and pest control. Coyotes come under the heading of pest control. Traps and poisen were common not so awful long ago. We also used dogs and guns for pest control.
Hopefully the animal is killed quickly and cleanly. But the end result is what matters. The crop and livestock damaging animal, whether it’s possums, raccons, groundhogs, coyotes etc. has to die.
I thought it was a clean shot. Perhaps a little far back, but in the lung area. The coyote was (for all intents and purposes) dead when the dogs got there. It is not uncommon for a predator to bite at the spot it was hit with a bullet. It is the natural reaction of an aggressive predator. The fight response to getting bit.
The yipping sounds you heard in the video are called “ki-yi’s” and were created by the electronic caller they were using to create the fawn distress sounds heard early in the video. Ki-yi’s are used after the shot to intrigue other coyotes who may be in the area. “Gee there was a loud sound and Ralph is yipping, I’ll go see what happened”.
The dogs in the video are certainly enjoying their work. Notice the happy, bouncy way they are moving back and forth to and from the coyote? Note how the coyote is not afraid of the dogs to the point that it doesn’t return …. multiple times? The dogs tearing at the dead coyote is their reward for a job well done. There is NO DOUBT however, that the coyote in question was dead as Dillinger. It was a good shot.
I don’t have a moral problem with killing animals (I hunt, I eat too much antibiotic/hormone free meat, trying to cut down), and I don’t really have a moral problem with killing coyotes, although I like them more than I like most people. I’ve murdered more than one chicken-killing possum out of pure spite. However, there’s more to the story than coyote=destruction of Western Civilization. Coyotes are primarily scavengers and predators of very small prey, mostly rodents (or feral cats near cities), etc. They fill an important ecological niche. Arguably, they can actually improve grazing habitat by eating the root munchers. Here in Portland, as coyotes have moved back into the city, songbird populations have increased. I live about 10 minutes from downtown PDX, and I’ve seen a couple of coyotes in my neighborhood.
I know coyotes do sometimes kill livestock, as do wolves (coming to a town near you, if you live in the Northwest), but killing the coyotes is not necessarily a solution. Packs stay small, because the alpha female controls all breeding. Left to their own devices, coyotes regulate their population fairly well. If the pack balance is disrupted, anything can happen, and they breed like dogs.
Further, cows have been bred to be docile, corn-eating meat machines. The Texas (Mexican, really) longhorns of two hundred years ago could stand up to coyotes and worse, but they would be a big loser on the commodity beef market – way too
flavorful and delicioustough and stringy, and less yield per ton of feed. Cows were not really meant to eat (government subsidized) corn.I feel for anyone trying to make a living ranching. I’d love to do it myself, but I can’t afford to. Any business that has their price set by Wall Street and Chicago commodity traders is in dire straits. Don’t blame the coyotes, blame the market. But I guess you can’t sic your dogs on the commodities traders.
That’s what animals do, they rip their pray apart. Those coyotes do the exact same thing to the sheep they are hunting, that’s nature. While obviously we try to be better ourselves, something like this does not bother me as long as he not intentionally being cruel for cruelties sake.
Why doesn’t the guy just get a bunch of American Akitas or Caucasian Ovcharkas? They’ll utterly destroy the coyotes and he won’t have to waste any ammunition.
http://www.amerikanakita.fi/kuvagalleria_genta.jpg
http://31.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_mcbzy0gNmc1r0csyqo1_400.jpg
Food might cost him a bit though…
I watched the video and your dogs are stupid…..a cattle dog could have rounded up the coyote. That being said….. what gratification do you get from tag teaming an animal that is out looking for his dinner? You and your dogs are going home to have something to eat…..the coyote was just trying to feed himself and his family. You were so puffed up at the end of the video showing you and your gun and two dogs that took out one coyote. What kind of BIG hunter is that!
As President Kennedy once said, “It is our task in our time and in our generation, to hand down undiminished to those who come after us, as was handed down to us by those who went before, the natural wealth and beauty which is ours.” The coyote is a part of the natural wealth….all wild animals are.
And as St. Francis said…If you have men who will exclude any of God’s creatures from the shelter of compassion and pity, you will have men who will deal likewise with their fellow men. I’m afraid you are on that trail.
I raise coyotes and I love my dogs very much, I know they kill live stock and need to be kept in check but watching a animal be ripped to pieces and suffer for the joy of it is pure evil and cruel! Why not use a call and just shoot them and be done with it!
You raise COYOTES? Cool. I’ve been close to a couple and find them fascinating, and really good-looking animals when they’re cared for.
Yes I do and love them very much they cry when my wife leaves the pin so they have love in them also, that coyote did not want to eat his dog or he wouldn’t have ran from his dog.
My wife cooks for them they don’t eat anything raw chicken and dog food is there diet and they get shots like all other dogs do, mine have never acted crazy or anything towards me or my wife, but they are good guard dogs that I can’t let out. But when they cry because we’re done playin and feeding them it makes you realize they can love and ya just want to spend more time with them.
I found this site after researching dogs that would be able to “hold their own” against a coyote. Our family pet (a female yellow lab), was attacked by a pack of coyotes within feet of our home in a subdivision and was unable to be saved. I am happy to see that someone is taking action against these dangerous predators!
The Coyotes will win in the end, because they’re smarter, and far more versatile.
I just want to come down there and hunt coyote. Viet Nam vet NE Oklahoma