So I was heading back into Shreveport from my quick trip to Dallas, hurrying in, because I wanted to attend a piano recital for a music teacher friend of mine. It dawned on me that I had no idea where the recital was to be held. So I called her. And she told me “Schumpert Hospital.” And thus, another can o’ worms was opened.
I was born at Schumpert Hospital. Not that this has anything to do with anything, but I offer that little bon mot as a way to introduce a little local color, and build something of a backstory. Now I wasn’t actually born in the “New” Schumpert (or what they used to call the “New” Schumpert, before the “Old” Schumpert was torn down, which is where I was born). Nope. The Old Schumpert gave way to the new Schumpert Cancer Treatment Hospital, which is where my mom received the diagnosis of “inoperable brain cancer” ten years ago, which was the disease that killed her. So let’s just say I have a history with the place. And after yesterday, I have one more issue to add to my list.
Actually, it’s not Schumpert’s fault, per se. Nope. It’s the Louisiana Legislature, and the way they wrote their conceal carry statute. (Don’t get me started about Louisiana law, Napoleonic Code, and how Louisiana has occasionally considered changing the state motto from “Union, Justice, Confidence” to “A State of Inditement.”)
Almost every state in the Union that has a conceal carry law on the books also offers reciprocity – they honor an out-of-state CHL, as well. But while my Texas CHL gives me the right to conceal carry in Louisiana, I must abide by the Louisiana rules, not the Texas ones. That opens up a world of opportunities for me to screw up, and when you screw up with a CHL, possible outcomes are jail time and the ever-popular “license revocation.” Which is soooo not cool, when I think back on the trouble I had to go through to get the bloody thing in the first place.
So one of the bones they threw those that lobbied against the bill in the first place, was an exemption for Hospitals. Yep. Every hospital is, by default (and through no default of my own) a “Gun-Free Zone.” (read: “Target-Rich Environment.”) While I find it odd that other well-known Gun-Free Zones (those would be schools, government buildings and churches) have had more than their fair share of shoot outs, I find it odd that hospitals seem to be the only place to not have a well-publicized gun battle within their walls. I suppose it’s only a matter of time. But of course, for those of us who prefer to travel with some .45 caliber security on their hip, a hospital is not a hip place to be.
Now I’m sure that most of the people that put this law together were thinking, “who would ever want to conceal carry in a hospital.” Interesting question. (Interesting answer: everybody with a CHL. DUH.) Interesting, question, sure, but it’s the wrong question. What everyone should be asking is, What are the odds that a bad guy (who will ignore the law anyway) will bring a gun into a hospital with murder or mayhem on their minds, and are there any legitimate reasons a CHL holder shouldn’t carry there?
Kinda makes for an entirely different point of view on the question, doesn’t it? You see, when you approach this from the point of view of a non-gun-friendly society, you are looking at it from a default position of “NOWHERE” when the “where should CHL holders be allowed to carry” is posed. When instead you start from a presumption that CHL holders are trained, responsible citizens, then you also assume that they should be able to carry everywhere, unless there is a compelling reason that they not do so.
As for me, I’d love to live in a world where I didn’t need to stay in Condition Yellow, and worry that every Tom, Dick, and Jackwagon wasn’t just about to haul out a pop gun and start a-poppin.’ But we don’t live in Mayberry, and hospitals are just as likely to be someplace bad guys might go as anywhere else.
Willie Sutton (a famous bank robber for those of you who think Axe for Men Body Spray is the ne plus ultra of men’s grooming) was asked, “Why do you rob banks?” His reply? “That’s where all the money is.” Don’t you think, maybe, perhaps, the guys who want access to morphine and other Class 3 Controlled Substances might just maybe think “Hey – hospitals have lots of drugs in ’em…let’s go rob THEM.” Since a disproportionately large number of hospitals have both pharmacies and several locations where such meds are stored, I’d say that your odds of running into someone intent on robbery would be higher and not lower at a hospital.
Let’s look at why guns in hospitals (in the hands of responsible individuals) would be a bad idea. I’m thinking around oxygen and around an MRI machine, but other than that, Im coming up empty-handed. (Well, save for that smokin’ hot Kimber Pro Criimson Carry II that I’ve been carrying.) Nope. I see no compelling, rational reason that I should be prohibited from carrying in a hospital. Do you know a liberal? A Progressive? Ask them. I got nuthin.’
So my daughter and I went to the recital, sans gun. Dagnabbit. And on the way home, my daughter said to me, “Dad, you know I really like it that you carry a gun. It makes me feel safer to know that you can defend us if something bad happens.” I didn’t have the heart to tell her that the gun was at home.
The main point of concealled carry should be to properly CONCEAL your weapon so that nobody knows or suspects you have a gun. Then if all hell breaks loose you can weigh your options and deal with the consequences later. Let’s say some crackhead whackjob flips out and trys to rob the place with all the DRUGS he could ever wish for i.e. the hospital. Most would choose your local drugstore, but you never know what a craized drup addict will do.
Actually there is a case of an off duty cop going to get an MRI of his knee or whatever and he carried his 1991-a1 into the scanner room. He placed it on a shelf when he was changing into a gown. The gun flew off the shelf and slammed into the side of the scanner, firing one round. The magnet pulled the firing pin block out of place and the slamming of the gun into the side of the machine caused it to fire. Nobody was hurt. The radiology folks actually did a great dissection of what happened.
http://www.ajronline.org/cgi/content/full/178/5/1092
Aside from that I work in a hospital. We have a large armed (ex-cops) security force that does a pretty good job. There are also lots of local city cops, department of corrections officers, and county sheriff deputies always roaming around transporting prisoners. Also, about 3-4 times daily the armored truck guys make pick-ups and drop offs. Its funny that in Michigan hospitals are a “gun free zone,” yet at any time there are at least 50-100 “only ones” roaming about with guns in the gun free zone.
They are so responsible and trustworthy they lost a prisoner last week and let him escape.
Ft. Hood was a hospital mass shooting. Also Fairchild AFB was a mass shooting. I don’t recall if one or both were actually located off base. They were double whammy’s though since military bases are gun free zones as well.
Brad, that’s a touching story about what your daughter said to you. Convenient how it fits right into your world-view.
Your town’s been in the news a bit lately. I blogged about it twice this week.
Good luck with that concealed carry, man.
Hey MikeB – True story. We here at The TRUTH About Guns take that “truth” stuff pretty seriously.
The reason my daughter feels that way, is she has been taught gun safety (by me) and how to shoot (by me) and we talk (frequently) so that I can attempt to demystify guns (especially how Hollywood simultaneously glorifies them, decries them, and makes them out to be some sort of magical object that never shoots the wrong person, never runs out of ammo, and always helps the good guys win). My daughter is thoughtful, articulate, intelligent, and well-informed. She realizes that we don’t live in Mayberry, and that when push comes to shove, she’d rather have someone like me watching out for her, than leaving things to luck or chance.
Luck favors the prepared.
As her father, it’s my job to be prepared at all times, so that I can anticipate and head off as many bad things from happening as I can.
You might want to turn down the volume knob on your Reality Distortion Field and that cute little tinfoil hat you’re wearing. We try to at least listen to both sides of a debate here on TTAG. We feel it helps keep readers informed, and helps them make up their own minds. Just a suggestion – it’s really hard to be broadminded, when you have such a narrow world view. Just sayin.’
mikeb30200
I am shocked and appalled that you would impugn Mr. Kozak’s character by suggesting that he fabricated his daughter’s remark. Although I vehemently disagree with many of your positions on guns and gun control, I respect your integrity. Well, until now. I request an immediate retraction of that obnoxious remark. Meanwhile, I will leave it here as an indication of the depths that some gun control advocates will go to defend their position. Shame on you.
Indeed shame on him! My wife, who up until about 3 years ago was hesitant about me carrying CCW, has come a full 180-degrees. Just before we leave the house, she asks if I have my keys, wallet, phone, watch, ring – and now, my pistol. She too has made similiar comments and appreciates the additional burden placed upon myself.
You’re reading more into my remark that is there. You should know by now I don’t do what you accused me of. Now you sound like Sebastian or Bob S. and so many others who exaggerate the offense or even fabricate it and then rail against it. Demanding a retraction, what drama.
“Brad, that’s a touching story about what your daughter said to you. Convenient how it fits right into your world-view.”
I meant both sentences literally. I wasn’t sarcastically suggesting he made it up or something ridiculous like that. How could you even think that?
If Brad’s teenage daughter somehow became influenced by the “wrong crowd,” maybe some militant vegan gun haters, new-age hippies or what have you, and begged him to give up the lunacy of gun ownership, that wouldn’t be a very convenient and touching story, would it?
I worked in an inner city hospital for a few years. Nothing could scare me more than imaging the idiots who did our security having access to any sort of weapon, much less a gun. They did give them pepper spray. That was a good place to draw the line.
I like Pete’s reference to the “only ones”. I call them “the chosen few”, the fortunate members of our society who belong to the club (gang) that lets it’s members protect themselves and their families wherever they go.
Maybe I misunderstood Mr. Kozak’s statement about guns in Texas hospitals. I thought it was forbidden in Texas too? Every one I have been to has a big sign saying that CHL holders were not allowed to carry. Of course the sign said nothing about criminals. I guess they are as welcome as ever.
The worst part was that when I finally got inside (after locking my gun in my car, a process that mikeb would approve of, I’m sure), there were no armed guards. There was one guy with a uniform and a radio. I just don’t get it.
Here is another one for mikeb, my daughter and my son have made similar comments to me and even tried to remind me to pick up my piece on the way out the door. Some people look at guns as tools, as sporting equipment, and as collectable works of art with a deep history behind them. As a CHL, you must see a gun as a last chance at survival as well. Mikeb just fast forwards to death. It seems that he lives in a world of fear. Fear of his gun owning neighbors, fear of the CHLs standing right next to him that he didn’t know, fear of people who have the guts to say enough.
In mikeys world, there is no crime, no hunting or target shooting. I guess in mikeys world there is only fear. Have a great day blogging mikeb, Im taking my kids shooting. We might take the extra dangerous high capacity assault rifles. You know why? Because I can, I still live in a free country.
Nope. It’s forbidden in Texas, too. In fact, I’m not aware of a state that allows concealed carry permit holders to carry in a hospital. Unfortunately. Again, this comes down to perspective. If your default position is “CHL holders are responsible gun owners, who should be allowed to carry everywhere EXCEPT certain places for specific, logical reasons” I think there would be very few places (if any) we’d be prohibited from carrying. On the other hand, the prevailing mindset, “Well, this pesky 2nd Amendment thing means we have to hope that most of these CHL guys aren’t gonna go all Dirty Harry everywhere they go, but we need to keep them out of as many places as possible to keep that from happening,” is why we can’t carry in hospitals, churches, bars, and schools.
I’m hoping that the changes in some states’ CHL statutes, where they have begun to allow for those who choose not to drink to carry legally in a bar, will spread across the country. That will at least be a start.
I’m not even going to start on the “gun free school zone”. I actually feel guilty leaving my kids at school.
I’m sure it would be a lot simpler for everyone involved to just wait till the shooting is over, tag the bodies and get back to eating donuts.
We “Dirty Harrys” must be a tremendous inconvenience.
Oops, that’s another post..
PS, is it true that mikey lives in England? If that is the case, why does he even care about what happens here?
Italy.
He must have no life at all. Could you imagine an American starting a blog about Italian gun laws?
Its really strange how many foreigners think that they should even have a right to an opinion on American policy and law. Besides, don’t they have anything else to do all day?
I guess the best way to treat these people is to ignore them. Easier said than done.
Minneaota does not ban in hospitals. I believe we have one of the best written laws in the country (aside from VT and AK). Pretty much te only places totally off limits under state law are K-12 schools, day care centers when children are present, state hospitals (polite name for the loony bins), courtrooms and correctional facilities. Employers can bar employees from carrying, but not from keeping a gun in their vehicle. Bars are permitted, and you can drink and carry as well, but your BAC limit is .04. Landlords can’t bar permit holders from their property, and any private business that wants to ban must post a sign and/or request you to leave, but you haven’t broken the law unless and until you fail to leave when asked. Even then it is a petty misdemeanor with a max $25 fine. David Gross and Joel Olson (lawyers who helped write the bill) ROCK!
Florida does not legally restrict CC in hospitals, although there are some facilities that post ‘no guns allowed’ signs as a corporate policy. The signs have no legal authority, except for if they discover a firearm on you then they can legally ask you to leave and have you arrested for armed trespass if you refuse. Some of the Tampa area and Palm Beach area po-pos will get all in your face about it but other than harassing you they can’t legally do anything.
10/28/09, Massachusetts General Hospital: A man stabbed his psychiatrist while undergoing treatment. The crazy bastard was shot and killed by an off-duty security guard who just happened to be there and heard the doctor screaming for help. The doctor survived after multiple surgeries but still has physical scars from the attack. The security officer was heralded as a hero by the doctor whose life he saved, and treated like a perpetrator by the authorities until the he was finally cleared. The Suffolk County prosecutor admitted that the officer saved the doctor’s life and was justified in using deadly force.
No sh*t, Sherlock.
From Wikipedia:
Alta View Hospital hostage incident
The Alta View Hospital hostage incident began the night of September 20, 1991 when Richard Worthington, armed with a shotgun, a handgun and sticks of dynamite arrived at Alta View Hospital in Sandy, UT in an attempt to kill Dr. Glade Curtis who had performed a tubal ligation on his wife.
After planting the dynamite outside, Worthington entered the Hospital’s Women’s Center and took two nurses, patient, Christan Downey, who was giving birth to her first child, her sister Carre, the baby’s father Adam, and two newborn babies hostage (Caitlin, the daughter of Christan and Adam, was born during the siege). Dr. Curtis saw what was happening and hid in his office, where he called the police. When the police arrived nurse Karla Roth attempted to wrestle Worthington’s shotgun from his hands but failed. Worthington then shot and killed Roth.[1]
Worthington held the hostages for eighteen hours. He was talked into surrendering and releasing the remaining hostages by Sergeant Don Bell and Detective Jill Candland of the Salt Lake City police department who were assited by a hostage inside, a nurse named Susan Woolley. Worthington was sentenced to thirty-five years in prison for the murder of Karla Roth, he committed suicide in his prison cell on November 11, 1993.[2]
The incident was portrayed in the 1992 TV movie Deliver Them From Evil: The Taking of Alta View starring Harry Hamlin and Teri Garr.[3]
Concealed carry is not explicitly prohibited in CO but some hospitals have signs prohibiting weapons. As hospitals are (generally speaking) private property the only thing they can do if you are found with a weapon is ask you to leave.
However, most hospitals now seem to have metal detectors and armed security at the ER after hours.
I’m would want to carry in a hospital for the fact that I am female and just the walk to the car is dangerous. late at night in areas you or not familiar with.