Not too long ago, we posted an article (by me!) about carrying or keeping a gun with a round in the chamber. Long story short, I let it be known that I thought carrying with an empty chamber is a mistake.
Some folks in the comments section raised objections, as they are often wont to do. I felt a few of the points that were raised had enough merit to discuss further. Some of these points were deliberately avoided for reasons I’ll get into. Others…I just didn’t think about and for some pretty good reasons.
The most common objection was “something is better than nothing” (or words to that effect). The idea is that a gun with cartridges in it — but not having one in the chamber — is close to being loaded and is therefore better than a completely unloaded gun.
In a prima facie, on-paper, in-theory sense, that’s true. In practice? You need to load the gun, aim and fire while under stress in the event that you actually need to use it.
Granted, is loading a pistol, a shotgun or a rifle the most complicated thing in the world? No, but it requires that everything go right when there’s a higher chance of something going wrong.
You know, due to the stress of OH MY GOD SOMEONE’S BREAKING INTO THE HOUSE AND HE’S GOT A GUN!
Again, carrying with an empty chamber isn’t wrong, but it just isn’t quite right.
If a person was going to leave a gun in Condition 3, they had better practice loading and firing the pistol, because not doing so just might get them killed. Which, of course, is why it’s better to keep your self-defense gun – be it a concealed carry pistol or home defense gun or whatever – with a round in the chamber.
Single action revolvers
If dropped, the hammer could contact the primer and therefore, fire.
Eventually, revolver designs changed. The good folks at Iver Johnson (related in name only to the company that exists today) developed a lifting bar that sat between the hammer and the primer of the cartridge. That connected to the trigger, which only dropped out of the way when the trigger was fully pressed.
Many revolvers also changed; whereas the firing pin was once integrated with the hammer . . .
A number of gun companies still produce single-action revolvers. For instance, you have Ruger’s Blackhawk and Vaquero models, Heritage Manufacturing’s Rough Rider series, replicas made by Pietta, Uberti and Cimarron and so on. Hell, Colt still makes the Single Action Army.
Then you have the big, scary, single-action magnums by IWI (the BFR) Freedom Arms and custom guns from Jeff Linebaugh.
Herein layeth the rub:
SOME of these guns (Ruger, Rough Rider, IWI, Freedom Arms, Linebaugh) have transfer bar safeties and thus can be carried fully loaded.
As for the replicas, these are hit-and-miss when it comes to carrying on an empty chamber. Uberti, for instance, makes some models with a transfer bar safety and also a few with a floating firing pin, which drops below the channel to the primer when the hammer is fully forward and can thus be carried fully loaded.
You’d figure Colt would have gotten with the program by now and made the SAA with a transfer bar. They DID make a variant with one (the Colt Cowboy) but they don’t offer it anymore and the SAA is sold sans transfer bar.
Now, to rein in this trip into the weeds.
I didn’t mention this stuff because in the original post because the number of people out there who keep a single-action revolver as a home defense or self-defense gun is likely negligible.
Furthermore, every person I know or have talked to who does have a single-action revolver – Rough Rider, Blackhawk or a replica – has other guns that they use for those roles. These aren’t exactly the most concealable guns out there. People who carry them are so rare that I felt like it wasn’t worth mentioning, and I’m probably still right.
After all, this ain’t Dodge City and you ain’t Bill Hickok.
And then there are GLOCKs
Next, there was some discussion about GLOCKs. A loaded GLOCK, some of the comments went, is susceptible to the dreaded “GLOCK ND” (negligent discharge). Therefore, it’s unsafe(ish) to carry or store with one in the chamber.
Folks, a GLOCK (or any other striker-fired pistol) is perfectly safe with a little intelligence combined with a bit of assiduity. If you were to compile a list of incidents of the “GLOCK ND” and start reading through them, you’ll find that in virtually every single instance, human error was the culprit.
Discharge during take down? Didn’t check that the gun was clear.
While carrying or holstering? It was being carried in an improper holster or the operator got careless in putting the pistol back into the holster, by not making sure the path was clear.
Or some jackass was pocket carrying his G43 without a holster and something snagged the trigger. I’ve said it once, I’ll say it again. If you’re going to pocket carry, get a pocket holster.
The anti-GLOCK crowd — and they are nothing if not noisy — also raised the objection that since a striker-fired pistol is so easy to discharge (a simple pull of a relatively light trigger) then it’s inherently dangerous to have those guns in a home with small children.
On paper? Maybe. But that would be true for almost ANY gun that didn’t have a manual safety engaged.
In the real world?
You can get a lockbox for $50 or less from Amazon or from most hardware stores. Is a cheap one as good as a safe from, say, a Liberty or Rhino? No, but it’ll do the job in almost all instances.
There was also some discussion of Fairbairn and Sykes experience in the Shanghai police with what is commonly referred to as “Israeli carry.” There are some inherent problems there.
First – much like the Israelis – Fairbairn and Sykes had to teach officers how to carry safely in a manner that got them street-ready quickly.
Second, they also trained. One of the first shoot houses ever built was built by Fairbairn and Sykes to train their officers.
Third, the reason that actual experts (I would say I am knowledgeable to a point, but an expert I am not) recommend NOT carrying in Condition Three is for the reason that it takes a lot of training and repetition to get truly proficient and most people with a lot of training and proficiency don’t carry their pistol unloaded.
To sum up: there were a few objections to my original post that, on their face, had some truth to them. However, there still isn’t a compelling reason to carry a gun or keeping one for home defense that isn’t loaded which can’t be gotten around with a bit of training, a bit of brains, or a bit of extra gear.
Still disagree? Sound off in the comments! Want to vent about something? Sound off in the comments.
Unchambered carry is a bad idea because:
1 you many not have time to chamber. Gunfights can happen that fast.
2 you may forget to chamber
3 your support hand may not be available. It may be injured or busy striking or holding back children, etc. Cycling against objects using your sight is slow and not easily done.
4 under extreme stress you may short stroke it
I’m not a big believer in the “the bad guy will just take your gun and use it against you” school of thought. However, with an unchambered semi-auto, that may be a more credible concern. Introducing an unchambered firearm means you only have one hand, at best, firmly gripping the pistol. That makes a takeaway more likely to succeed if attempted. Now you’ve introduced a firearm where one might not otherwise have been involved, not to mention triggering the bad guy’s own sense of self preservation. His response could be ro shoot you with your gun.
Anything is possible, which is why the smart move is to play to the best probabilities. An unchambered gun is a dangerous, useless-to-you half measure. If you’re going to do something like defend yourself with a firearm. Do it right; prepare the firearm for immediate use and take the neccessary precautions given that state of readiness.
Well said.
Jonathan-Houston,
That is a good point that I have never heard before.
And bravo for an excellent explanation.
Several years ago I read an article (I think it was Masaad Ayoob) detailing about a half dozen cases were cops had their guns taken away from them by perps and the perps couldn’t figure out how to manipulate the safeties, saving the cops’ lives. Obviously carrying concealed greatly reduces the odds of your gun being taken, but that doesn’t mean that precautions aren’t in order. A safety is much easier to manipulate than a slide though.
plan A: have an empty gun you throw onto the ground to start the action.
While the bad guy is picking up the decoy gun and trying to shoot you with it, you draw your real piece with a round loaded.
(This is not advice do not do this)
Im still a believer of an empty gun is just a club.
If one wishes to carry sans a round in the chamber. That’s OK with me. I feel its foolish but its my thought. Not a hard and fast rule. Just not for me.
I for one don’t want to take the chance of fumbling around with a gun trying to rack the gun under pressure.
I carry a single action 1911. I have for almost 40 years and have it properly holstered. Cocked and locked . Safe and ready when I am.
Ugggghhhhhh why are we still talking about this? Empty chamber carry is dumb. If you are a dumb person who cannot immediately see why it is dumb, go to Youtube and watch dumb people like you dying in a hail of bullets while they struggle with the slides on their unchambered guns.
While I agree it’s better to have a round in the chamber, I don’t, not at the moment. I hope to later, but I just moved to a state that allows it, and our first child just turned one. He’s squirmy and all over the place. I’m still getting comfortable with carrying, and I’ll take an unchambered gun over one at home in the safe any day. It degrades my ability to respond and limits my choices, but is still far better than some choice words.
Same here. Carried chambered until the kids came. Will again once they are old enough to figure out crapping ones pants is a bad idea. In meantime, happy to train Israeli carry and take the tragedy buffer.
I am the same way, my kids randomly jump, hug or accidentally collide with me on a regular basis. I have no problem carrying chambered but around the house or at the park I do not. I have trained chambering on the draw and while it is less effective it still gives me options.
Good on you guys for responding here. Empty chamber is one option, but there are others. Like: condition 2 (good choice for a DA/SA autoloader), condition 1 (if your chosen piece has a manual safety), and etc. Options are good.
Those who scream that everybody who doesn’t think exactly like them, pick the same options as them, etc., are dumb for not recognizing that they are perfection itself, are just more of the loads of SJW types out for attention by putting everything and everybody down, to make themselves feel a bit better about not having a life. IOWs, pathetic sheeple. Not thinking human beings.
You can also watch plenty of guys who have never once needed their guns in a confrontation, yet shot themselves because they kept one in the chamber. Risk vs benefit should ALWAYS be a part of this decision. Only, “dumb” guys wouldn’t understand that. One in the chamber is NOT ALWAYS the best option.
when I was in the Harris County, Texas courts, I saw many LEOs that had semi-auto pistols with one in the chamber and the hammer cocked and the holster strap between the hammer and the slide.
Hm. Not a bad plan. I assume the manual safety was also engaged, but such a strap on the holster sounds pretty good, as well!
The guns must of been 1911s or Browning HPs or similar SA only. I carried a 1911 for awhile and the duty holsters made for 1911s have the retaining strap that goes across the back of slide, which also blocks the hammer from firing pin. My Glock 23 is fully loaded, and no problems at all, even with the 3.5 connector in it that lightens the trigger pull a bit. Now, what about those darn useless novelty CCH badges?
the safety doesn’t enter into it. and you can have a hammer strap optioned for anything with a hammer except dao.
Belittle all you like, there is only one gun in my house which I will not keep around fully loaded, and that is my one Glock. If you did not realize the design is dangerous, you would not have spent so much time belaboring the obvious. Of course an ND is user error, but why is the gun designed to make that error likely? I have no problem with a 1911 locked and loaded, there has been one in my car since I bought it in 2010. But my Glock has an empty chamber. I have a Sig DA/SA, fully loaded no problem. I carry a LC9, no problem. But people *MODIFY* (for chrissake) their Glocks trying to make the trigger compete with a 1911, then wonder why they shot their foot off. “No safety” needs to include a stiff, lengthy trigger pull, like the LC9, or a DA revolver. The Glock trigger is too light and too short to be safe, and I understand Glocks are way far overrepresented in the annals of ND, which is very easy to understand.
If you are so uncomfortable with a Glock as a fully loaded and chambered self defense gun, why do you own one?
Any striker fired pistol that doesn’t incorporate some type of manual safety has the same chance of a ND as a Glock.
I have no issue using any of my Glocks as a SD gun, nor do I have any issue using any of my 1911s, any of my revolvers, or any of my other guns. And yes, I have done trigger work on 2 of my 3 Glocks.
Maybe you should just use a spork. Seems more in line with your abilities.
Not exactly. Many striker/plastic pistols, like the S&W Sygma, have actual DA triggers, that do not use glock’s UN “safe-action” trigger scheme. Some might even have second strike capability, which is the real holy grail. A true DAO trigger that has as much chance of going off in a pocket, or other ND, as a DA revolver does.
If you want a single action trigger pull, either carry a SAO autoloader in condition one, or choose a hammer fired model that one can manipulate its condition at will. Or a DA/SA auto. There are lots of better choices out there than the glock. Please note I’m not saying glock = bad. Just that for most every use, there are other choices that are better.
OFC, most people would rather just follow the herd, but that isn’t reasonable, logical, nor wise.
I have had cops point shotgunms and Rvolvurs at me, made me nervous, now their pointing Glocks at me, and that frightens me to the point of shaking.
I wouldn’t worry about it. Considering the capabilities of the average glock owner, in front of the muzzle is likely the safest place to be. 🙂 /sarc off/
My Taurus G2C is DAO, restrike, and no mag safety.
One of the interesting things about that is I can (after clearing) dry fire repeatedly and get a rough visual about how much the aim point moves depending on my grip and finger position.
Dani:
Also, that gun will then give you a second try at any round that fails to fire the first time. A great capability, because a dud round will usually fire upon a second strike, and your finger is going to automatically do that anyway.
Human brains aren’t too sure of themselves, and if an expected result does not occur, our brain responds by doing the action again, just to make sure it did it the first time. Ever have your computer go slow for a second, but then it opens two(or more) of whatever you clicked on? This is why. When it didn’t open the first time, your brain clicked again to make sure, often without one even knowing they did so. At least until the computer catches up and opens multiple copies.
Bottom line: For *any* firearm, you have to *put your finger (or some other object) INTO the trigger guard to fire the weapon.*
Why would you do that more in a Glock than in *any other firearm*?
So the trigger pull is utterly irrelevant *if* you are paying attention to your firearm – which you should be doing, again, with *any* firearm.
There are no Glock “negligent discharges” *without* the word *negligent* in the incident description. So you are in reality arguing that if someone makes a *negligent mistake*, the Glock is more likely to discharge than another firearm. That may be true – but it is also irrelevant, since the *actual* cause of the negligent discharge is…*negligence.*
Keep your damn finger out of the trigger guard until your sights are on a target you intend to shoot – and you should be training to do that automatically *even* while under stress
And make sure when you holster or unholster that the holster is clear of obstructions. You always have time to do that. In the case of a fast draw in a conflict, you don’t have time to check, but you still have time to keep your finger out of the trigger guard. The odds of a holster obstruction triggering a Glock in that case is an acceptable risk due to the greater risk of being too slow.
End of story.
“Bottom line: For *any* firearm, you have to *put your finger (or some other object) INTO the trigger guard to fire the weapon.*”
There’s a problem with absolutism: you’re proven wrong too easily.
There are any number of guns out there with firing systems that, if dropped, will fire a round under the hammer. Even some shotguns will do that.
When I was a lot younger, I was riding horses with some friends. One was carrying a single action revolver without a transfer bar safety in a holster, and one under the hammer. The hammer snagged on a branch, and he shot his horse (he was twisted by the tree).
I really, really wish the powers that be could find someone to get this comment section to work right. I still don’t get any notifications that someone has replied to any of my comments.
All I get is replies that they are working on it. I will say this again: If other blogs can do it, then it can be done. Is really shouldn’t be that hard. Hire someone who did it on other blogs.
Same here. I really would like to know if there’s a response to my comments. Sometimes I ask a question. I asked administrator. They didn’t know. I don’t know who else to contact.
Victoria:
Many of us brought this issue up at the time Farago sold out. We were assured that; “we’re working on it”. That was a few years ago now. Must not be “working on it” very hard…. 🙂
But it used to work fine, a year or so before that. I still get the occasional email notification…. whenever anyone posts on this page:
https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/the-truth-about-6-5mm-ammo/
Apparently the last time it worked. June 2016. Which raises the question: How tough can it possibly be to fix? It worked before. It still works now, so long as the comment page is more than three years old. Other sites have no problem getting notifications to work NOW. So what’s up?
In the absence of further information, which is never forthcoming, the logical conclusion is: They don’t want to fix it. They like it this way.
Victoria: I did find a workaround though. Just bookmark the page you commented on, and then check back once in a while. I made a folder called “TTAG comments”, and put all pages I’ve commented on in there.
Since it’s a bookmark and not a save, it will go there and update to the latest info. On Firefox for my Linux machine it even goes right to the place on the page I was when I saved. On Firefox for Windows, it just goes to the top of the page, but it will still get the newest comments. You just have to scroll down to it.
I think the Glock leg argument is kinda straying off into another argument, that could be a good idea for its own article.
What you’re proposing is more, “Are glocks, or other strikers without safeties, truly safe?”
I actually think that’s worth a healthy debate and article all on its own. Perhaps you could write one yourself even.
“I actually think that’s worth a healthy debate and article all on its own”
That’s not a very fresh idea. They’re both safe and useful within their own parameters, and people are free to choose the one they prefer. If you try to have a “healthy debate” it’s always – 100% of the time – NOTHING but internet people telling other internet people that their particular opinion is wrong.
“The Glock trigger is too light and too short to be safe”
The problem is not with the Glock trigger, the problem is a lack of training on the part of the operator. If you can’t train yourself to keep your finger off the trigger until you have made the decision to shoot any gun is dangerous in your hands.
While I believe training is the answer, it’s not just fingers that are the problem. Often, it’s holstering the gun into a holster that compromised by clothing.
Again, though, training is the answer. While holstering, train yourself to make damn sure there’s nothing in the way.
Mr. Hoober, the only quibble I have with this article is the assumption that people only have “a” (as in singular) home defense gun. In my experience, here in MS, a great many people have a great many home defense firearms of various descriptions. Personally, I have several, ranging from BP revolvers to modern SA and DA revolvers & semi-auto pistols, to rifles and shotguns. There is at least one fully loaded firearm in every room of my house and my shop. And that’s only firearms. 😉
My point is that I see no benefit in limiting my defensive options.
So you have no quibble with the line; “If dropped, the hammer could contact the primer and therefore, fire.”, in relation to SA revolvers? Even though everyone who has ever used and examined a SA revolver can easily see that the firing pin is ALWAYS in contact with the primer when the hammer is down, if the chamber under it has a round in it?
Nor with his next, more significant error, suggesting that “floating” or inertial firing pin guns (like a 1911) ARE drop safe with a round in the chamber, even though all such firearms with a round in the chamber WILL fire if dropped on their muzzle?
THAT is a significant, even dangerous, error to be stating as fact. And so easy to correct. All it takes is knowing what the word; “inertia” means. But, OFC, the current crop of TTAG writers are kept too busy chasing sponsors to look up the meaning and physics of the things they’re writing about.
“So you have no quibble with the line; “If dropped, the hammer could contact the primer and therefore, fire.”, in relation to SA revolvers? ”
Nope. I don’t expect hardware (or software) to compensate for a persons stupidity, as opposed to the opinion of many other people who think it should.
Knute (Ken),
I would hope that all semi-auto handguns have some sort of striker/firing-pin block that absolutely prevents detonation from dropping the pistol.
Unfortunately, some may not and I have no idea which do and which do not.
uncommon_sense: I would hope that, by now, you know whether or not the handgun you actually OWN has a firing pin safety. Never mind the others.
Dave: And the 1911 series 80 fits into that category. That’s all Colt added to the series 80, the internal firing pin block. I left it in my series 80, but a gunsmith can easily remove it if desired. Some say it makes the trigger drag, but it doesn’t on mine.
Its kind of unneeded though, because inertial firing pins can only build firing inertia on their own if the whole gun accelerates, and then stops suddenly. Like what would happen if the gun was dropped, and then lands on its muzzle. But it’s hard to imagine a situation where a dropped gun firing into the ground could be a danger. The ground is about the best bullet backstop one can get.
Perhaps if someone drops their gun from two stories up and it lands muzzle down on somebody’s head? Even in that highly unlikely scenario, the gun would likely kill them anyway, even without going off, by blunt trauma alone.
There are a lot of older pistols manufactured without a “drop” safety feature. Older single action revolvers or those still manufactured without a hammer block/transfer bar are theoretically more prone to discharge back in the day when you ride a horse as the drop from that position could allow the pistol to rotate muzzle up when it lands. That’s why the old timers carried them on an empty chamber. They do have a half cock notch that you could use to carry on a loaded chamber, but there’s a reason they say, “Don’t go off half-cocked”.
For 1911s, the danger is similar if you carry hammer down on a loaded chamber though I don’t know why any somewhat intelligent person would do so. This would require the grip safety to be disabled (a somewhat common modification) or to malfunction. Most 1911s come with a half cock safety, but again, you would have to ensure it was engaged properly and it’s prone to breakage. 1911s are traditionally carried empty chamber (probably a bad idea) or “cocked and locked”: hammer cocked and slide mounted safety engaged.
Theoretically, the slide safety could be accidentally disengaged in your holster rendering a cocked and locked 1911 significantly more susceptible to a ND when drawn given the user didn’t know the safety was disengaged.
All that said, training, knowledge of your firearm’s design/function, and practice go a long way to make any firearm safe to carry with a round chambered though some designs are better for a particular purpose. (I don’t think any of us are going to try to pocket carry a 1911 or a Glock 17.)
I’ve run an experiment with a rough 1911 with a POS barrel that was scrap. I put into the chamber a primed case w/o powder or bullet. Made up a little fixture to hold the gun on a piece of pipe, stood up on a ladder and let the gun fall onto its muzzle.
I got to 8 feet off the floor and a Series-70-style 1911 clone would not ignite the primer. I don’t know how high I’d have to go to get it to ignite, but I figure I’m never going to carry my piece 8’+ off the floor, (seeing as how that’s the height of most ceilings). OK, this isn’t enough for you? Go get a titanium firing pin.
The Series 80 was a solution in search of a problem – ie, it was created by lawyers.
‘Go get a titanium firing pin.’
That was Ruger’s solution.
Question: If it lands on it’s muzzle could it not go out-of-battery? Or would it it take more movement of the slide to do that before an impact could “trigger” potential discharge?
Dani: In the case of an inertial firing pin, nothing but a physical block on the firing pin itself will have the slightest effect. It won’t matter if the slide is in battery or not. If the slide goes back far enough to be out of battery, then the gun will just fire out of battery.
The idea behind the floating firing pin is that if the firing pin is heavy enough, but made too short to actually be driven into the primer by the hammer, then when the hammer drops, the pin will be struck hard enough to give the pin enough of its own inertia to fire the round, yet then rebound to the rear. This means that if the hammer is carried down on a live round, the firing pin will still not be able to touch the primer, even though the hammer is sitting right down on the pin. In order to fire, the pin needs to be hit hard enough to continue forward, past the point of contact with the hammer, and then into the primer.
This also means that if the firing pin somehow gets enough inertia to hit the primer, from some other source than the hammer (whatever that source might be), and then the round in front of the pin suddenly ceases motion, the firing pin will continue forward into the round anyway, no matter what the hammer, trigger, barrel, or etc, do.
The round wouldn’t even need to be in a chamber at all. It would be as if a round was pushed into the ground, primer up, and then a firing pin dropped from a height, point down, directly into the primer. If the pin has enough mass, it will fire the round, chambered or not, hammer blocked or not, trigger pulled or not, out-of-battery safeties, etc. or not. None of those things make any difference at all.
Picture if I was to just strike a primer laying on a hard surface, with a hand held hammer, manually. It will go off. The priming compound could care less WHAT hits it, so long as the blow has sufficient energy to activate the explosive charge in the primer, it will detonate. All the out of battery safeties do is, in one way or another, block the hammer from providing that energy to the pin until the gun is fully locked into battery.
If something else provides that energy to the pin, the primer won’t care whether it’s in a chamber or not. OFC, in an experiment such as DGs above, we have to have that case in some sort of chamber, to hold the round in perfect position in line with the front of the firing pin while some other device provides the inertia to fire. But in any case, the inertia must lie directly in line with the round, and then the round must stop suddenly, like when the muzzle hits the ground.
Since the pin must have considerable energy to fire the primer charge, and then must expend that energy quickly through a sudden stop, it really doesn’t matter, because the available object to provide the sudden deceleration needed to drive the pin into the round is almost certainly going to be the ground, and the round must be in line with the inertia, which, if provided by gravity instead of the firearm itself, must be downwards.
So, as DG said, it’s a problem in search of a solution. If gravity provides the inertia instead of the firearm, then the problem won’t arise unless the gun is moving towards the ground, and then stops. But if the gun has to be pointing at the ground for the ‘problem’ to occur, then how big a problem can it be?
Sounds a lot like a ‘problem’ created by attorneys to have something to sue over, doesn’t it?
Make that line above into: “a solution in search of a problem”. We do all make mistakes. All except for that one guy above who thinks “muscle memory” means he’ll never make a mistake, ever. He thinks.
“Even though everyone who has ever used and examined a SA revolver can easily see that the firing pin is ALWAYS in contact with the primer when the hammer is down, if the chamber under it has a round in it?”
And, again, absolutism that is far too easy to refute.
I have four (4) SA revolvers. One of them is as you describe (a 3-screw Single Six). The others can safely be carried with a round under the hammer, with little to no chance of firing if the hammer should be hit or snagged. (Some chance remains, of course, given extraordinary circumstances that can be described but have statistically no chance of happening.)
Nice catch. What I meant was: “As all who have examined a REGULAR single action revolver, like a Colt SAA or the old three screw Rugers before the transfer bar, would know”. All of that seemed a bit verbose for a blog comment, though.
But still a nice catch. Few indeed even care about SA revolvers anymore, or even know they exist, or care about the firing mechanism. Much the less wish to discuss the merits of hammer mounted versus frame mounted firing pins, or the S&W design of using a rebound slide instead (my favorite design).
One could write an entire book about just the intricacies of revolver internals, but no one would buy it, now that most don’t even know what revolvers are.
Yeah, me too. Various firearms but could go to dagger, spear, sword and buckler, longsword, or smallsword if for some reason one of those seemed like a good idea. I am lacking a rapier and main gauche though so maybe not ready for the six fingered man.
Widen your horizon’s. Nearly anything can be used as a weapon, whether it is designed as a weapon or not.
What is the I.33 for humidor and candle or Gründtliche Beschreibung der Kunst des Fechtens for bananas?;-)
Of course, I do concede you point, it just that it brought Monty Python to mind and I improvised from there.
PS: There was a 12 yo kid recently that subdued an attacker with a common socket wrench after Dad missed 39 times with a pistol.
A good 1/2 inch drive ratchet upside the head will drop most anyone like they were a sack of feed corn. Almost as good as a ball peen hammer.
Did dad work for a local Florida PD not to be named?
Good lord this again?
Just do what you are comfortable/confident with and what is best for your individual personal situation. People that just can’t accept what someone else wants to do compared to what they feel is best for them smacks of their insecurity.
“Just do what you are comfortable/confident with and what is best for your individual personal situation. People that just can’t accept what someone else wants to do compared to what they feel is best for them smacks of their insecurity.”
Amen brother. My God, WTF is wrong with people who bash others for simply doing what they choose to do? I carry with one in the chamber but you choose not to. So F_____g what? Are you my mother? This subject is DOA just like the OP.
I think I can answer that one. What is wrong with such ones is that they get a nice, warm, mushy, feeling of superiority over others by putting them down. The same as SJWs or those who suffer from TDS. Same mental disability, but different symptoms. IMO, anyway.
True dat. Been reading the thread here on this topic, since we all have an “O” I quite agree with your spot on comment Sir.
I’ve always been a SA semi, or when Rugeting for fun, their SA revolvers, like Single 6 w/Wmr cyl.
In non service activities, all occurred either nearly cheek to cheek, face to face, or less than 3 ft. when chit went south, and it happens so fast, I’d bet few if any pro operators could rack then stack em…
On one of those occurances, my snubbie bbl. ended up in the guys nostril, and he still didn’t get quiet, until he heard the cocking of the hammer.
All previous exp., was with 1911”s my “Uncle” names Sam loaded me, and the pipe was always warm n cuddly.
AD”s by glockinstine operators usually are extracting their golden goose with or wit out a pocket holster, by placing their finger, as so many comments referred to above, on the trigger upon extraction.
Negligence or stupidity, flip the coin on word choice. Some people were never meant to have a handgun I suppose.
I got two strikers, finally, couple years ago, a 9mm and a 40. Daughter carries the 9. I got them after watching the best experts I know of, champions, and their green light review.
Muscle memory is a life saver when things go adrenaline slow MO mode, and those Taurus’, PT-111’s, have that thumb safety where I’m used to one being, the pipe is red hot, and, eyeball to eyeball, it will fire again without re-racking the rear sights on someone’s nose.
That chit will get you *illed in a real shtf.
So, us non-glockentines keep a low pro on discussing polymers and plastics, but if I had to go to war tomorrow, you can it would be an all steel weapon.
I only know my own life’s experiences, fwiw, too many LEO’s can’t hit chit no matter what the tool, and I’m an honorary.
We keep our mouths shut, myob, and avoid praising glocks.
I am thinking G2S, my ankle sometimes gets chilly, but, I’m happy with my PA-63 In 9×18, and I have a CZ, in 9×18, that has the best SA trigger I’ve ever felt, since the Smith S.S. Model 66, .357 which was accurized, and tweaked by a smith, that was flat out dangerous, hair wasn’t the word.
I got rid of that one, I didn’t really need it, but now, sigh, I wish I had it back.
I wouldn’t have or carry any with a non hot pipe, but that’s just me.
Old school, extract, thumb, trigger finger, rinse n repeat often until autopilot takes over.
As for kids, had 3 daughters, all knew all weapons were loaded, all were shooting bb guns by 5, learned safety and marksmanship, and by ten, the oldest could out shoot me with the Smith 9mm semi, steel. She had the edge, rock steady hands of a brain surgeon.
A admit, these days “are different” a 3 grand safe, that folks have to go look up the damn combo to, or wake up with a shadow looking at them in a dark bedroom and try to get to a box hopefully in reach without getting halfway up out of bed.
Smh.
Kids are grown, hoping dad doesn’t ever need to move in, not the reverse lol, and I have em where I need em to be and they are “ready when I am.”
Just old school geeze, too used to doing the hard chit the same way, but it worked for me.
Agreement. My bedside gun is always a DA revolver. If waking up to a noise or shadow, I want the piece in my hand as simply and easily as possible, meaning it lays in the headboard. And I don’t want to have to think about anything. I want something that goes bang when I pull the trigger, and I could care less how heavy or gritty that might be.
On a range or match gun, OFC, my choice is different. But in my house, in the middle of the night, what do I care about 50 yard accuracy or the ability to knock over a steel plate or knock a bowling pin off a table? What I want then is a big “bang” noise when I pull the trigger, and not much else.
OFC, there are those that only want to own one gun. Why, I haven’t the slightest idea. Why would anyone want only one of something? If you want one of it, you must like it, so why wouldn’t you want more? Some extras, just in case one breaks? Two is one, one is none. But, some want only one item to cover every base. Knowing how impossible that is, I’m NOT one of those. But, IF I were, then I’d have to choose that DA revolver in my headboard. But thank goodness I don’t have to make that choice. I think five guns is the bare minimum, and that’s how I always answer the “one gun” question. I turn it into the five gun question instead.
Which gun would you choose if you could only have ONE each of: Rimfire rifle, rimfire pistol, centerfire rifle, centerfire pistol, and shotgun? It’s a toughy. Also thank goodness I don’t even have to make THAT choice. Only ONE centerfire pistol? I’d have to go with the DA revolver. But that would mean giving up my beloved 1911! OH NO!
Amen! We’ve beaten this dead horse enough. We can talk about home carry vs guns hidden in various locarions in the house. We can talk about the merits of being able to shoot effectivly one handed. As the saying goes, “you do you”.
I have handguns that have a magazine safety – I leave the mag out a 1/2 inch in the lock box and the mag can’t be rammed home while in the box(like if it were dropped). When the handgun is retrieved, the mag is shoved in and the gun is ready to fire. Since I do not carry(Los Angeles County), my handguns are ready very quickly.
Let the flaming begin…………………
WTF did I just read.
At least you know how stupid it is.
No flame. You do what you gotta do or are allowed to do. Somewhat different than in rural MS tho, speaking as one who attended a full auto shoot at a local range about a month ago. No permits needed, no interference from the State. Run what you brung. 🙂
As someone from MS you gotta tell me where this full auto shoot was.
For the most part….if the gun goes off…someone pulled the trigger.
The are a couple videos out there showing issues with holsters (kydex included) where bending or twisting caused a discharge.
There is also one of an off duty cop pulling up his pants and firing his clip draw equipped pistol. Almost always comes back to the trigger.
Of course, older designs without an internal firing pin block can go off if dropped. The Sig 320 problem was that it had an internal block but dropping (or smacking it with a hammer) could make the trigger move to disengage the firing pin block.
Glocks have a blade in the trigger that is very light so that if the pistol is dropped, the inertia of the fall will not pull the trigger ( as the pistol is partially cocked).
So old single actions have to be handled and loaded in a certain way to be carried safely. Modern shooter often often dont want to fiddle with something complex. If you have a modern weapon in a holster that covers the trigger, you are in pretty good shape.
If you carry a modern pistol with an exposed trigger, you are own your own.
OK , I’ll bite this time , I let it pass the first (hundredth) time , but I’m all in now .
I sold my Glock’s for this very reason , sure , I came up with other rational reasons , but when I look myself in the mirror and I’m absolutely honest with myself , I got rid of my Glock’s because I carry loaded chamber and I am sometimes a dumb ass . I’ve been known to knock over a glass of milk , spill my coffee down my chin , have people toot their horn at me from time to time , you get my point .
A loaded Glock is a little more dangerous than a striker with a heavier trigger and when you carry a missile behind the hammer and like a lite trigger , like I do , I advise people to carry a thumb safety , like I do .
I am at a point in my life that I seem to lose a bit more of something every day and way I see it , I can actually admit to myself that I don’t totally trust me without that little conscience click of the safety anymore .
I know some people , maybe most people , will be just fine carrying a Glock with a loaded chamber , but all the reasons people give for not are not 100% wrong either .
@ mark s: +1 here. I have yet to find a dumb ass vaccine. Until I do, it’s one in the chamber with safety engaged and hammer down on a DA/SA pistol. I don’t condemn those who carry a striker with one in the chamber. It’s just not for me, especially as I get into my “golden years”.
Well, now, let’s analyze this a bit deeper, shall we?
So you’re a klutz. Many people are.
But how often are you a klutz when handling or holstering your firearm? How often are you drinking a glass of milk, or spilling coffee, or having a horn tooted at you while actually handling or holstering your firearm?
I submit never. Because if you’re smart enough to be worried about a Glock short trigger and trigger safety, you’re probably smart enough to know you need to train so that your trigger finger is never in the trigger until the sights are on target, and you take the time to inspect your holster for obstructions before holstering or unholstering.
So when do you get to be a klutz if you’ve taken the time to train those reactions until – as the experts say – you not only get it right, you can’t get it wrong?
Ok, maybe you’re taking off your holster and you drop the whole dang thing on the floor. Does the Glock fire then? Unlikely. Maybe you just fumble finger the Glock when it’s out of the holster being put in a lockbox or on the counter at the range. Does the Glock fire then? Unlikely.
So when does your Glock actually have a likely chance of discharging in those two most common “klutz” behaviors while handling a firearm? I submit extremely unlikely.
Being a “klutz” is one thing. Being an *untrained* klutz is something entirely different. And the latter is where a Glock is dangerous – as is *any* other firearm. As I mentioned elsewhere here, the trigger pull and safety mechanism are irrelevant to the *proximate* cause of any Glock discharge I’m aware of.
Is it a lot of work to train to the level where you never get it wrong? Yes. If that’s a problem, don’t carry a firearm. Because there are a lot of areas where carrying a firearm will bite you if you can’t get it right.
How often are you a klutz when driving a car? Have you ever negligently ran a red light? Have you ever negligently turned down the wrong way of a one way street? Have you ever failed to yield the right of way when making a left turn? Have you ever negligently failed to check your blind spot and cut someone off on the freeway? If you can’t respect the power and danger of an automobile why would you think you could be trusted with a firearm at all let alone one without a safety?
You are fuckin insane.
How often do you “train” your driving abilities?
Literally has nothing to do with firearm safety. Not the first time I have seen you feed the gun grabbers agenda either. Fuck off gov. Fat troll.
‘How often do you “train” your driving abilities?’
Every day. Usually for at least an hour or so.
Perfect analogy. When something becomes familiar, inattention and negligence become more likely. A 16 year old In driver’s ed may not be very experienced nor skilled, but at least in my day, was paying more attention than a driver more familiar with driving. Someone with little firearms experience who feels over confident in his/her carry technique is more likely to find him/herself in trouble. Nothing is more dangerous than a little knowledge. This has nothing to do with car=privilege firearm=right. After all people driving cars kill more people than people holding firearms. Let the one with no traffic tickets throw the first stone.
I’ve committed all those errors and I grew from them. I learned to drive on the streets of San Francisco with a van as a teenager when my mom wanted me to drive her around. She was brave. Seattle is like a miniature version from a driving perspective. I’m a mommy-frelling ballerina with a pick’em up truck towing. If my shooting was up to par with my driving I’d be like Lena Miculek.
B.D. says: “How often do you “train” your driving abilities?”
Every time I drive.
Training is nothing more than repetition. Repeatedly doing the same thing is training, because it becomes habit. The trick is training is to do the right thing; doing the wrong thing is still training, just training the do the wrong thing.
The driving analogy is a good one, because we drive so much (most of us, anyway). Yet, most of us will also admit that we sometimes make mistakes while driving, despite all the practice/training.
That carries over to shooting, believe it or not. Especially in a stressful situation.
There is one thing very different between handling a car and handling a weapon – a 4000 pound vehicle traveling at 62mph carries over half a million foot pound of energy vs ~350ft/lbs out of your little 9mm or .45 pea shooter. If you can have a momentary lapse of judgement handling a half million ft/lbs you could certainly have one while handling 350. Anyone who believes otherwise is delusional.
Come on, Gov, you know better than that.
I answered the asked question.
Of course there’s a difference between driving and shooting.
The fact remains, we are always training. Training happens every time we do something, no matter if it’s shooting, driving, or eating. Or even sex.
And we all make mistakes. It’s part of being human.
Some of the biggest mistakes happen when training at sex.
And some of the most expensive.
I carry a Glock 21 with a round in the chamber I constantly handle the gun to keep excellent muscle memory if you don’t want to have the gun fire don’t touch trigger
Said every one of the people who later came to suffer from “glock leg”.
Because they they squeeze the trigger…
so the theory still stands, if you don’t want a negligent discharge, don’t be negligent.
As if every act of negligence is a deliberate act.
Yawn.
Never happened yet I would rather shoot myself in the leg but still be in fight than have bad guy shoot me because I didn’t have a chambered round
What you are overlooking is the odds. You’ll likely only be in one or two gunfights at most, in an entire lifetime. But you’ll likely carry for years and years, manipulating said weapon an uncountable number of times in the process. One or two chances to mess up with an empty chamber, but thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of chances to ventilate your own leg while taking a piss.
If you have your Glock properly holstered it can’t go off
Those are what ifs what if you slip in the shower get hit in the crosswalk get rundown by a terrorist in a f150 train be vigilant and stay away from the end that has 6 letters
And it will ALWAYS stay in its holster right? It’ll never come out to get cleaned, the retention will never fail, the gun will never fall out when you unbelt to take a crap… in other words you don’t make mistakes. Ever.
Boy, that must be realllll nice. Congratulations.
What an idiot libtard if you have a gun you get good at handling it stay with your BB gun
Mad says, “What an idiot libtard if you have a gun you get good at handling it stay with your BB gun”
WOW! I’m so glad to have seen the one person who never makes a mistake!
Well, except for that ad hominem attack, anyway.
Say, if you can make that mistake (and you did), are you willing to admit that maybe, just possibly, you’ve mad other mistakes?
Big Bill: First, mad would need to learn what punctuation is for. He thinks one big long post that’s all one sentence is not a mistake. From someone that ignorant, nothing he says or does would surprise me. Do you supposes THIS guy knows the six letter word for a firearm’s dangerous end? I doubt it.
Good username though. Mad about covers it. As in “mentally deranged”.
So you think you’re perfect look in the mirror clown I am not trying to get an A here I really wonder if you can shoot at all like getting rounds on the target I think I hurt your feelings again wha what wha
Muzzle snowflake
I notice that you had to go look it up though. But that’s good. You learned something. Now try looking up “punctuation”. I know, it’s a big word, all scary long and has lots of syllables, but try it out. You might like it. Most learn it in the third grade, so how scary hard can it be?
I forget just how stupid people like you really are your response is so childish and you carry guns I hope you don’t blow your face off looking down the end with six letters grow up
And, Mad, you really like those ad hominem attacks.
When I was new to guns I bought a DA/SA pistol with safety/decocker because I lacked the confidence to go with a hot gun without the safety, never fell for the empty chamber myth as a safe way to carry, always thought it was a sure way to get killed.. Once I was confident enough, now I only carry a gun without a safety and it always has one in the pipe, always carried in a holster. At least the DA/SA or DAO provide a long hard trigger pull.
Eh…all my pistolas are chambered with the safety engaged-at home. My AR is “half loaded” with the mag in but unchambered. But ready to go…I still haven’t figured out a light for the AR(its EZ to hold small flashlight for a pistol).
Wait a second, so you’re telling me that I shouldn’t keep my home defense gun in condition 3 but instead have it in condition 1 and put it in a lock box? So instead of just grabbing said gun from the night stand and chambering a round, I should keep it loaded and put it in a lock box so that I can fumble around with a tiny key and try and put it in a tiny hole in the dark?
Colt change the SAA!? Sacrilegious. Do not ever suggest they change a true classic. But do suggest they make more of them and lower the price for us plebes…
…oh yeah…uh…carry what you like guys. It’s like arguing Android is better than iOS. Who honestly gives a F*ck what someone else chooses to do.
Perhaps why they weren’t interested in this modification, even though the investor designed it to be visually unobtrusive and to require minimal modifications to the original design.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US5724759A/en
No thanks. I’d rather they stop production than change a design that’s gone on unchanged for as long as it has.
I agree about the Colt SAA. It should stay the way it is.
Someone who wants to spend a couple thou on a gun should be more than willing to put the energy into learning how to use it safely.
My opinion.
Big Bill: Yup. What’s the big deal? In a SA revolver, the next round is instantly available anyway, whether fully loaded or one short, quicker out of the leather for the first, second, and third shot than any other existing action type. So the only downside of the top chamber being empty is one less round available before reloading. With only six on tap anyway, what’s one less?
Just the easier reloading of the old Ruger 3 screw models (or any other regular types like the Colt SAA) vs the new ones, makes up for that one extra round, at least IMO.
All my defensive guns are chambered.
It’s a battle you’re not going to win.
People who don’t carry with a round in the chamber have no training.
I thing Mossad guys are well trained, just saying.
Does the Mossad or other Israeli special services “Israeli carry”? I thought it was just the cops and regulars of the IDF.
I believe they do.
The reason that the Israelis carry with an empty chamber is because Israel does not have a concept of self defense. They have defense of the State, of their comrades, or of other citizens. But no self-defense. In fact, when applying for a gun permit in Israel, self-defense is not an acceptable reason to get a gun. There are more and complicated details about the Israeli attitude (prohibition) of self-defense, but the point is that the Israeli system may work for the IDF, but not for you.
‘They have defense of the State, of their comrades, or of other citizens.’
Personally I don’t just carry for my own personal defense, but also the defense of my country, my comrades and other citizens. Consider this, if everyone carried a weapon in condition 3, how many mass shootings would there be? Odds of the shooter getting 4 shots off would be pretty low.
Clearly not enough to train for scenarios where chambering a round can be life or death. 21 foot rule gets those people every time. Momentum and all…. Just saying.
You carry your way and I’ll carry mine. I am pretty tired of people telling me how to handle my weapons. Of course, when I was a soldier, I listened to guys who had been there. But now at my age I know me and I know my weapons and you’ll be gambling with your life if you engage me thinking you know whether there is one in the chamber. The best line of all time is Dirty Harry’s. Do you, punk?
Preach it, brother!
I tease my friends when I can see their chamber indicator…
‘…I listened to guys who had been there.’
Yep, if you haven’t actually ever been in a gunfight before you can shut the f#*k up about what or how I carry.
I don’t understand why anyone who carries a modern firearm is afraid to carry a round in the chamber??? So in 2019, are you telling a revolver carrier to carry only 4 bullets instead of five?? Or tell them to carry only 5 bullets instead of six??
If you are so scared of a striker fired trigger, then why not get a hammer fired gun? Stop buying Glocks. There are advertisements for trigger jobs on striker fired guns to make them with an even less pull weight!! Many competition shooters boast about having it done to their race gun.
I’m not interested in “Israeli carry” of a firearm. I carry one in the chamber of my ruger P89 with 17 rounds in the magazine. It’s decocker is better than a thumb safety.
Does anyone “ride the hammer down” on their gun with a LIVE ROUND in the chamber? They make it look soooo easy in the movies!
“I don’t understand why anyone who carries a modern firearm is afraid to carry a round in the chamber??? So in 2019, are you telling a revolver carrier to carry only 4 bullets instead of five?? Or tell them to carry only 5 bullets instead of six??”
In my 3-screw, yes. And you should be, too.
I too have a P89. I’m a lefty and the controls on the P 89 are completely ambitious I love SA/DA hammer fired autos. That being said, I also carry a M&P 9mm with one in the chamber. Unfortunately, the safety is on the wrong side of the slide for me so I don’t use it. Running this way I am even more vigilant about how I handle the gun. The finger does not go in the trigger guard until I’m ready to fire.
Alright so you said all the pro’s, not all are valid.
1) either way you do it it takes Training
2) ya silly ass might forget to flip the safety an fire so there is you 3 seconds
3) the bullet may not fire, in which case you have to chamber anyway
4) In such a rush and excitement even in a holster such as the case in Florida the police officer shot himself and the wall in a school and was clearly not in fear or stressed, so in all counts safety and training cause in the heat of the moment you may grab fast and shoot yourself.
Me personally I carry a snap cap in the chamber, so if some lucky bastard grabs my gun and shoots he’s about to be dead. And being that I am a Veteran the simple act of 1 second as I draw is a negligible amount of time just like the BS of you can only have a 10 round magazine but you can carry as many magazines as you like… try it one day drop a mag change it takes less than 3 seconds.
So lets just say it’s a personal choice and your way isn’t better than mine, but I will never accidently shoot my leg or foot. you roll the dice.
I home carry, but as far as pistol lockboxes go, I recommend the Fort Knox (top opening lid) and the Sentry Safe with biometric lock (also has a key and keypad). I have these 2 hidden and had mounted in my house. Note, the sentry safe does have a security vulerablity that can be mitigated by covering a hole with stainless steel tape.
“the number of people out there who keep a single-action revolver as a home defense or self-defense gun is likely negligible.”
Not to mention that those idiots have no right to expect anyone to take them seriously. 🙂
For that matter, I don’t take seriously anyone who carries a revolver for self-defense.
In that case, the argument that any gun is better than no gun might be correct – but that’s as far as it goes. Because that argument is stupid in the first place, because the entire discussion is about *carrying* – not about whether you should carry. So that argument is irrelevant. And therefore only idiots use it.
Break into my house and we’ll see how seriously you take a couple .44 mag slugs to the chest.
You’ll probably die trying to get your semi-auto back into battery after attempting a contact shot anyway.
Idiots, LOL.
Did u miss the “carry” part?
‘…the number of people out there who keep a single-action revolver as a home defense…’
Read the last paragraph Moron.
Read the part I quoted, moron.
Carrying with an empty chamber was John Wayne’s great advice, applicable to old, single action revolvers.
When I go hunting, I carry my Remington 700, bolt action rifle with the striker discharged on an empty chamber. I can cycle the bolt almost as fast as I can take the safety off, even when I stepped on a black bear who was sleeping under a downed tree.
When I carry a semiautomatic pistol for self defense, the chamber is loaded and the safety is on.
I do same with shotgun the last round fired stays in the chamber. I don’t have to hit a bypass cause it’s cocked, or turn off a safety, just pump and fire
Same here on the riful and shotgunm
Have you ever tried carrying your bolt action on a loaded round with the striker down? You can lift and close the bolt to cock the striker quicker than doing all four motions. Two motions will always be quicker than four, unless one can somehow arrange to do all four simultaneously.
But the real benefit is in the noise. I can raise and lower the bolt slowly in complete silence. I lost a whitetail in heavy cover to the click when the safety is released. It’s an unnatural, metallic noise that spooked him instantly, and I missed the snap shot at a running target, and he was gone. That’s when I started looking for a better way. That was back in the 1970s somewhere.
More bad advice, did the author not learn from his first mistake?
I have pocket carried for years, mostly using a clip such as a clip draw on my SIG 938, hammer down, safety on, round chambered.
So, there are at least 2 actions required to get a round to fire after removing it from a pocket.
My Taurus Millenium G2, basically a glock with a safety, same thing, actions are needed to make it fire.
So why do I NEED a pocket holster?
Also, had a KelTec with a pocket clip, no holster, ever, and a Glock 40 with a clip draw, and you just need the brains to have nothing else in your carry pocket, and you won’t have an issue.
It appears to me that Darwin and his theory of evolution is again being ignored, if you are dumb enough to carry without forethought, please ace yourself before you breed.
Both have pro’s and con’s the secret is – you must be well versed to bringing your gun up to the level of lethal quickly. Does the gun have a external safety, or is it internal. Does the gun have a firing block mechanism. Learn what it means to have “muscle memory”. Practice your procedure till it becomes a natural reaction without thinking.You will have other things that must be accessed in those fractions of a second. Whatever stage you carry your weapon at be consistent. Either you will practice with chambered, or chamber empty. When the fight starts, ejecting a live round onto the ground, or hearing the click of a empty chamber, will just mess up your day, maybe your last day.
Love the “Quigly Down Under” reference.
“… this ain’t Dodge city and you ain’t Bill Hickok” Blam, Blam,Blam!
“Didn’t say I didn’t know how, just not much use for one” Bad guy dies.
To chamber or not to chamber? Ho Hum
Well written…
They say tomato, I say Condition 1…
To each their own, and god speed…
The first gunm I packed was a SA .22 with a half cock safety and I loaded all the holes, then I went DA but cocked it most of the time.so I got in a habit of cocking the hammers Then I went to auto pistols and just never did trust that hammer sticking up so I carry them with one in the chamber on half cock. As for me on striker fired I’m sure they are just as safe as any other design I just like to see what’s going on, . And in my opinion , and this would be scary, I’d bet my draw and cock against the draw rack the slide anytime. Just the same as the guy thumbing the safety off, he will beat me. Which gets me to this. Those stances, their great for cops and competition but IMO bot so great in a gunfight up close. I was shown( Thank You RES), yank that sucker out, moveaim, fire. We can put a bullet thru the eye of a bunny sitting still but it’s hard to get a head shot when it’s running, us being the bunny. When all else fails eat a mucho big bowl of butter beans and a hand full of BB’s that should put a whole new meaning to “Kiss my a$$”
Why carry if you’re not ready?
Exactly…
I’ve carried in condition one for nearly 25 years. First a 5906, then a PPK/S for 20 years. Always eith one in the chamber, hammer down and safety off. Recently retired the PPK in favor of a Sig P365. I use either a DiSantis OWB when it’s jacket/coat weather or an Alien Gear 3.5 IWB when it Polo or T shirt weather. Thought about getting the Sig with the external safety, but decided not too. In a holster made for the gun you carry, making sure it’s unobstructed is a quick check. I can see no valid reason to carry a modern weapon in condition 3 as long as you’re observant and safety conscious when holstering/re-holstering your weapon. Safe wise, I like the Homak #584 4 digit/code safe. Quick easy to access and small enough for the P365, a spare magazine, and a small 300 Lumen Tac Light. The NRA store version is about $50+ for the small size. On Amazon, they run about $35 just sans the NRA stamped door. I have four. One near each upstairs door and one near the basement door. All are coded alike, but each has a different weapon in condition 1 ready to go. Guns in my bigger safe are in condition 3 (AR rifles and defensive shotguns), except for my SAA revolvers are empty as I don’t consider them as a defensive weapon (my hunting rifles and shotguns are empty too), mainly because both have 8 1/2″ barrels and were used for silhouette shooting when I was younger. Now getting older, I have trouble with body positions for competitions, so I don’t enter very many club competitions anymore.
Well, it’s nice to know I’m ‘negligible’.
Wouldn’t it be actually quicker to rack the slide than to retrieve your weapon from a locked box?
Of course all of those Glock NDs were due to human error. Here’s a news flash, ever since Adam and Eve ate the serpent’s apple we’re all fallible. Brain farts are a universal malady that effects 100% of all humans and the Glock and it’s clones are probably the least idiot proof handgun ever invented. Considering the odds of handling a particular weapon every day for years or possibly the rest of your life hoping to never have a brain fart in the process, and many people wisely choose another option.
to all you sanctimonious what iffers and self styled know it alls out there:
you would do well to keep in mind that some people dont carry with a round in the chamber not because theyre so afraid or lack of training but because simply of where they live and the laws that exist there if they did they would be constantly administratively chambering and unchambering a round throughout their day while doing so in their vehicle
which for them is unwise because it feels utterly unsafe to do so
and so as to keep continuity in their mindset they keep that same gun on the headboard at night with no round in the chamber so that there wont be any confusion
without going into details i have it set up that theres no way anybody gets in my house at night without making enough noise for a long enough time that i wont have enough time to wake up and get my wits about me and get my firearm and charge it while on my way to the threat
and yes i train and rehearse that
as for being out in public goes if somebody gets the drop on me with a knife or firearm at super close range i figure that im only going to be 50/50 on that anyway
so i compensate for that with situational awareness and trying not to put myself in situations or places where that will happen
i carry mostly to counter the mass shooting incident the type of which where afterward everybody says “if there had only been a good guy with a gun” and i will more likely than not have time to draw the weapon and charge it while i get my ooda loop going
uh, what?
i didn’t get your point.
not surprised
at all
So… Move. Or ya know, apply the “tried by 12 or carried by 6” rule. Because criminals don’t follow laws, and as long as you stay off the radar, nobody is checking your gun. Conceal.
like i said
sanctimonious what iffers
and self styled know it alls
you are correct. in the 20th and 21st centuries, empty chamber is just retarded. this ain’t 1902 with a Colt .38 Long primitive revolver and you probably ain’t riding a horse in pursuit of cattle thieves.
“israeli carry” is stupid. i doubt that israelis whose primary weapon is a pistol actually use “israeli carry”. sounds like bullshat urban legend..
One observation concerning all the keyboard commandos here – they seem to make the assumption that people primarily carry guns in preparation for a gunfight, and this is not always true. In my own case I carry a gun because IT’S MY GODDAMN RIGHT and being prepared for the defense of my life is a purely secondary concern. Frankly, most of us should be more concerned about our cholesterol anyway.
Well saving room for some ice cream after dinner is a bit higher on my list than any damn LDL or HDL mumbo jumbo.
Well your odds of dying of heart disease is about a thousand times more likely than dying from a criminal attack, so, maybe something to think about…
It’s your right to self defense. Correct. Wonder why guns are the most logical option? Do u carry an AR all day too? Or a musket? Lol. Confused fool.
Actually I carry a revolver, which is 1000% better at typical bad breath self defense ranges than an AR and 100% better than a semi-auto pistol that will get pushed out of battery on a contact shot. However, that may be the reason I carry a revolver, but the reason I carry a gun (as I said) is because IT’S MY GODDAMN RIGHT.
And, sorry you’re a confused fool. Keep your chin up, you’ll get it eventually.
I think you are confused. Or drunk.
It’s your right to be retarded. Pray the gay away gov.
Go peddle your homosexual fantasies elsewhere.
Agreed. If I feel the urge to admire, use and hold a finely engineered machine I might just as likely pull out and ogle any one of my watches, of my bicycles, of my cars, of my surgical instruments, of my fountain pens or of my firearms…. I don’t believe anyone has the right to keep me from holding, using and appreciating these art forms.
Ok… revolvers. Old model Ruger Blackhawks which have not been converted should be carried with the hammer down on an empty chamber, just like Colt SAAs and other vintage and replica SA revolvers. Modern revolvers with some sort of disconnect can be carried full up.
Guess what? The chamber under the hammer of any carried revolver is *irrelevant* for the first shot, since cocking the hammer of an SA or pulling the trigger on a DA advances the next chamber to the firing position. So we’re really talking only about safe carry and capacity, as the first shot fired will be from the NEXT chamber.
This is not remotely comparable to carrying a semiauto with an empty chamber, where the slide must be racked to make the gun ready to fire. A revolver with an empty chamber under the hammer IS ready to fire.
+1
Doesn’t come into play until you’ve already fired 5 times.
Well, technically, you could also just not drop them I suppose.
I always wanted to see in a western someone who knew he was about to get into a gunfight slip that 6th round into his Colt SAA. Usually I just get to see Colt SAAs with 16 chamber cylinders.
“I always wanted to see in a western someone who knew he was about to get into a gunfight slip that 6th round into his Colt SAA.”
Off the top of my head, I don’t remember actually seeing that, but in The Shootist, John Wayne does mention it.
“Usually I just get to see Colt SAAs with 16 chamber cylinders.”
A typing error, or wishful thinking?
The 16 chamber cylinder is specifically a reference to Kevin Costner in Open Range. The gunfight at the end was pretty good otherwise, but at one point Costner gets 16 shots out of his Colt SAA without reloading. Probably applies to a few other westerns as well though.
I thought I counted 17 in the battle scene in “Open Range”. Maybe I counted wrong? Or remembering faulty? It has been many years since I saw that movie. And unlike Mad, I DO make mistakes. 🙂
I never said I don’t make mistakes I just never have with a gun hurt your feelings knute man up and get over it
Look what I found:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p28yT3Z3oj8&t=7347s
I wonder how it avoids the googlebots? it’s full screen with proper sound and everything. But now I get 18!
1:43:08-1:43:32
I still counted 16, but when he starts fanning it gets a little hard to keep track.
I also like the guy getting thrown across the ally when he gets hit with both barrels of the shotgun through those 3/4″ boards, but even better is when the same happens from a .45 Colt round. But otherwise it still is a pretty good gunfight scene. The stone cold killer blows a hole in the braggart’s forehead and his buddies stand there with their jaws agape while he starts shooting them. That’s a lot more true to life (in my admittedly inexperienced opinion) than most movies, especially westerns.
Open range is a good movie and as far as the other guys standing there in real life it’s called shock value I did love the the fact Costners six shooter magically self loaded
I used to carry a Walther PPQ. There is no way to put a round in the chamber without leaving the striker cocked, and there is no safety. It made me feel extremely uncomfortable.
So I traded it. I now have a Walther P99 (OK, I’m a Walther fan). Still no safety. But, it has a decocker, so I can put a round in the chamber, decock the striker, and walk around with a much better feeling about it all. The gun is DA/SA, so the first shot is a long pull on the trigger, but I routinely practice it, so I’m OK with it.
There are some days (summer, mostly) when I carry the Walther PK380. It has a safety, but I don’t really care about that. Big thing, it’s hammer fired and it’s also DA/SA, so I have no problem with chambering a round and lowering the hammer.
Plenty of ways to solve the problem.
The Israeli’s do it, and I do too. But as Sam has pointed out, one needs to practice and I have. To the point I know I can unholster, rack, and have my tritium dots centered on some perps forehead before they know what’s coming.
Apply the 21 foot rule. Try it. Dry fire and have a friend rush you with a fake knife. Hell, try it with a taser. Bet you still get stabbed.
Apply the 21 foot “rule” with the “holy” glock with a round chambered (I’m pretty sure that as I was at the Vatican admiring Michelangelo’s ceiling, it was definitely a glock God was passing to Adam in the famous reclining scene), I bet you you will still lose just as badly. Pray the opponent was just carrying a “Taser” and not a knife.
What?
Use whatever gun you want. Do u know what the 21 foot rule is?
Try it with any style sidearm. The odds are not in favor of the added time it takes to try and chamber a round, let alone the stress of a real situation. YouTube it.
No, no you cant.
The Israeli’s do it because they had to come up with a training procedure that worked for all their soldiers, including those that dont know which is the end that goes bang. Israeli special forces dont empty chamber carry.
The Glock if it came under the Governments Consumer Safety Council would never have been allowed on the market. Its an unsafe design from 2 aspects, the fact that it acts much like a single action weapon with the hammer cocked back and no manual safety and it has a totally unsafe asinine take down system. As one gun writer said years ago, its amazing someone was not smart enough to hire a good “gun savvy lawyer” and sue Glock out of existence with all the accidents this pistol has caused.
People are going to make mistakes but when you design a tool as unsafe as the Glock its not “a maybe” they will have an accidental discharge its a fking fact that sooner or later they will. Glock originally designed the gun with an exposed hammer and their marketing agent said ” are you joking no one in their right mind would buy such an unsafe weapon because they can see that the hammer is cocked back. Glock then redesigned the weapon as a striker fired weapon because they knew the average low I.Q. gun owner would not have a clue on how the gun actually worked or how dangerous it was to handle and carry because “what a Moron cannot see a Moron does not fear”,
The Glock take down system is an accident waiting to happen and happen it does all the time. If you forget to check the chamber just one time in you life its Sayounara . You would probably be more likely to survive in a Banzai charge. The engineer who designed a take down system whereby the slide has to be forward and you have to pull the trigger must have on that day tripped out on LSD.
For myself I carry an HK P30sk with the double action hammer in the down position and the manual safety on. I have no worries about the gun going off when holstering it or even worse going off by itself while in the holster as many Glocks have done when a fold of the holster got snagged inside the trigger guard. As a matter of fact in an extreme emergency you could carry the HK with no holster and in your pocket or even waist band but if you did the same thing with a Glock you would quickly blow your balls off in short order. Ask the famous Black Athlete Plaxico Burress that did that in a New York restaurant a number of years ago. Kaboom he shot himself as he sat there at the dinner table. I could give you many other identical examples of Glocks going off while the owner wore them or handled them. One other one was very tragic. It was a girl participating in a shooting contest. When she holstered her Glock .40 it went off and the bullet went down her leg utterly destroying it. She now after many painful operations will be a partial cripple for the rest of her life. Think about Her all you Geniuses that sing the siren song of the Utopian world of Glock. I am sure you will tell us that since you are a “stable genius” it will never happen to you.
THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY AND ONLY ONE WAY TO CARRY A GLOCK SAFELY AND THAT IS WITH AN EMPTY CHAMBER PERIOD AND THERE CAN BE ZERO ARGUMENT ABOUT THAT IF YOU ARE STILL IN CONTROL OF YOUR MENTAL FACULTIES AND NOT LIVING IN A NARCISSISTIC FANTASY WORLD OF GLOCK UTOPIA.
I once had a grim laugh when one Jethro Bodine (after emerging from his out house) told me he bought a Glock because he could not stand the worry of carrying his 1911 cocked and locked. P.T. Barnum should have said, “There is a Moron born every minute” so I guess I will have to say it for him.
I do not carry a Glock and sorry 1911 fanatics I would only carry a 1911 with the hammer down (series 80) and chamber empty with a Series 70 and since I do not like to carry any gun with the chamber empty that is why I do not carry any longer my series 70 and pre-series 70 (original 1911) . Considering how many types of expanding ammo my plethora of 1911’s did not work very well with I gave up on them long ago. I once owned 12 of them.
Even my beloved Browning High Powers (all 6 f them) gave me fits until I found some expanding ammo that would work reliably in them. And I do not carry them ever. Too big, to heavy although I can cock the hammer on the draw with no problem (passive firing pin models).
Its interesting to note that Massoud Ayoob reported that when one Police Department got fed up with all the accidental discharges with Glocks and went over to a double action only auto that accidental discharges dropped to almost zero. More solid irrefutable proof that the Glock is an accident waiting to happen.
Lets face cold hard facts the more chances you take the more likely you will run out of luck, usually much sooner than later. People who ride a motorcycle to work know damn well their chances of being seriously hurt in an accident is astronomically higher than driving a Pick up truck to work. And so it is when carrying a Glock as well. The graveyards are full of former motorcycle riders and Glock users. And I include all the copy cat weapons as well as they are as common as the common cold.
Vlad as always you are full of stupid.most semi auto today are Glock wannabes I have carried a Glock 21 for years I fast draw hip shoot and yes stupid Vlad I always carry with one in the chamber
“”””””””””””””””””””””””””Vlad as always you are full of stupid.most semi auto today are Glock wannabes I have carried a Glock 21 for years I fast draw hip shoot and yes stupid Vlad I always carry with one in the chamber””””””””””””””””””””””””””
Your rants always remind me of that long ago cartoon show. It was called “Fractured Fairy Tales”
The difference between you and me is I am real you live in a virtual reality world oh and btw dummy they don’t call it Glock perfection for nothing
“Your rants always remind me of that long ago cartoon show. It was called “Fractured Fairy Tales””
Hmm… that give away means you’re at least in your 60’s bordering on senility. An old retired civil servant who used to clean toilets in a federal building living off a small pension and social security. An insignificant cretin crying for attention in a world that has left him far, far behind.
Your taste is in your ass.
OMG I love those old Fractured Fairy Tales shows!
TO ELI WHITLESS
”””””””””””’Your taste is in your ass.””””””””””””’
Your brains (what little you have) are in your ass
Lol. “Facts”.
Fuck you troll.
What is your birthday including time and birth location?
Shorten that to GLOCKTOPIA! It will catch on and you will be a rock star!
I’ve dropped a loaded Glock once, actually the only pistol I’ve ever dropped in my life.
Didn’t fire..interesting. It seems that as long as the trigger is not manipulated the pistol will not fire.
The SAA was designed to be carried fully loaded with the hammer back on the first notch. Pull back the hammer, you notice how it “clicks” 4 times? That’s intentional. The first click is there so the hammer isn’t resting on the cartridge.
Most cap and ball revolvers have carry notches between the nipple notches. See the old Remingtons. You rotate the cylinder halfway between the nipples and lower the hammer on the carry notch. When you thumb the hammer back for the first shot, it only rotates 1/12th or the way around instead of 1/6th.
Um. Excuse me, but the inventor of the Linebaugh cartridges and custom gunsmith in Powell Wyoming is JOHN Linebaugh. PS: I have never had an ND with my EDC G23 chamber loaded these past 22 years.
That photo of the safe is cute, if completely patronizing to those who make the “kids” argument. I own several safes, and none of them fit in my holster. The most likely time a kid will get their hands on my gun is if it somehow gets knocked loose from my [high-quality, proper-retention] holster during movement in tight spaces while I am wearing it. That scenario is at least as plausible as a robbery. If my gun lands at my child’s feet, an empty chamber leaves plenty of time to prevent a tragedy, but a chambered striker-fired gun may not. If my chamber is empty, I obviously increase the chances that my gun won’t be useful when needed, but I also reduce the chance of a ND caused by a minor in my care. When I go out without my kids… I rack the slide. See? Situational risk assessment. Mr Hoober, If you weren’t too busy arrogantly doubling down, you might consider trying it some time instead of pretending you know everything… but I suppose you are probably more interested in getting audience engagement than giving good advice.
CZ 75B or Beretta PX4./
I can’t believe this is even a subject for discussion.
Empty chamber carry, so dumb!
Nobody who’s ever advocated carrying with an empty chamber has ever explained how they were going to fight off two assailants AND chamber a round at the same time.
I keep hearing the words with proper training, like that is the Holy Grail! Do not get me wrong here as training is vital, that said the real problem is you can’t cure stupid, Murphy, or brain farts!
Best thing you can do is buy a pistol that you can safely carry loaded with ‘one in the chamber’. I suggest a CZ 75 D PCR, in 9mm. Just go to there web site, or go to your gun store for more information.
What’s the controversy? There’s simply no point in carrying an unloaded gun.
I think the controversy is whether or not a loaded magazine with an empty chamber constitutes an unloaded gun.
“Here we have a conundrum. Modern revolvers (Smith & Wesson, Taurus, Ruger, Kimber) have transfer bar safeties and as such there’s no need to mention it.”
Um, Smith & Wesson doesn’t use a transfer bar, they use a hammer block. The end result is the same, but the means to that end are directly opposite in how they function.
It’s funny how a pimp like VLAD TEPES is accepted and sometimes glorified for his rhetoric of cut and paste (fake news) values but a person who simply chooses a different way of carrying is villified and demonized by those who scream for personal freedom.
Sad, isn’t it? Farago sells out, the site gets taken over by snowflakes who spend every minute lining up “sponsored content”, and the content section gets taken over by trolls and vlads.
But, on the bright side, ammoland just revamped their comment section so comments now don’t take days/never to show up. I think they heard how bad it’s getting over here and want to provide a better place to be, so that TTAG will be left with nothing but trolls and snowflakes. Kind of like Youtube is determined to censor everything but SJWs and cat videos.
Ammoland eh? Thanks for the tip. A 2A focused forum that “patronizes” a troll like VLAD is as questionable as the NRA in it’s current form.
De nada.
If you want a common username better grab it quick though. Ammoland was intelligent enough to allow only one person to use a name at a time. I could’ve even been Ken again, like I was here years ago. But Knute is fine, and nobody else seems to want it.
On TTAG anyone can use any name at any time, and that makes it really confusing. One never knows who one is talking to. I could be ELI2016 if I wanted to. In fact, I’ll prove it.
Oops, looks like I spelled it wrong.
There we go. So anybody can mess with anybody here at any time, by pretending to be somebody else. What kind of a moron thought THAT was a good idea?
Glocks can be dangerous… When they tumble and fall and the natural instinct is to catch. I like having a gun ready to shoot but I need a second chance when I’m juggling. DA/SA make the most sense to me. Learn your own weapon and try not to drop it, the last thing you do might be a good catch.
By all means, carry what you are competent to handle effectively and safely.
I have trained chambering on the draw and while it is less effective I am still way ahead of the guy who doesn’t carry. You are not going to change my mind. I will still carry unchambered.
Best of luck to you and yours.
I hope r.i.p is on your tombstone if you fail in a confrontation
How often should I clean my fleshlight?
What’s a “fleshlight?” No wait . . . on second thought I don’t wanna know.
Agree with the author 100%. As I commented after the previous article, carry so that all you have to do is draw and pull the trigger. My wife carries her Beretta 92 loaded with the hammer down and the safety off so all she has to do is draw and fire; first shot DA and the rest SA. I carry my Jericho the same way. If I have to carry a compact, it’s a DA only with no safety or one with the safety off. If carry my Glock it’s in a solid Crossbreed holster with one in the chamber. Time waits for no man, and neither do bad guys.